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The Riptide was indeed pretty bad and did set an unfortunate precedent for T'au, but I think the Stormsurge is even worse.
At least the Riptide looks cool aesthetically. The Stormsurge is just badly designed in multiple ways.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Were missile pods always 36"? I thought that was just SMS and missile pods were 24"? Maybe I am wrong, it's been years.
Missile pods weren't that popular though as they were only AP4. In 5th it was AP3 or bust.

Missile Pods have always been 36" and until the 6th edition codex SMS were 24" range.

But in 3rd-5th, you also couldn't double up on battlesuit weapons and needed one of your three hardpoints for the multi-tracker to allow you to fire two weapons in one turn (except for shas'vre team leaders who could take a multi-tracker as wargear in the 4th edition codex, freeing them up to take the targeting array on their spare hardpoint for +1BS). You could then either twin-link a plasma rifle or take a plasma rifle and another gun. Seeing as you'd be using markerlights to buff your BS, re-rolling to hit wasn't very useful so you'd take a second weapon to increase your maximum damage potential. The only other source of AP3 or better was the Fusion Blaster, which was 12" range, meaning you could be charged by any unit you shot at and didn't kill. Your other options were Burst Cannons or Missile Pods. You already had a lot of S5 shooting from your fire warriors so the missile pod was the clear choice there as it gave you some longer ranged punch for your suits to utilise as they closed to plasma range and made them a threat to light vehicles, especially if they could get to the sides or rear.

The problem with Vespid has always been that they're a unit of highly mobile flying infantry with powerful mid-range guns. That is to say, they do absolutely nothing that Tau don't already do. Kroot at least have the "close assault vs ranged shooting" niche locked down, in theory, but Vespid could be reskinned as a unit of Fire Warriors with jet packs or a new Drone unit and change absolutely nothing.

I love alien auxiliaries, and the Vespid have cool visuals – and in the lore, they have diamond-hard claws capable of stripping open power armour – but they have even less of a theoretical place than Kroot unless you do something weird with their mechanics. I dunno, make them a support unit; the Communion Helmet doubles as a Drone Controller, and their guns inflict a -1T penalty on whatever they shoot due to neutron radiation. Something like that.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
The fundemental problem with making sept units good in melee is that it makes Kroot completely useless.

Kroot's shtick is (or at least is meant to be) the melee threat/defence for Tau.
If you give battlesuits that ability, suddenly Kroot no longer occupy any niche, because Battlesuits cover that along with having more firepower, staying power, and mobility.

Kroot have never purely been "the melee units", though. Even as far back as 3e they were designed to be versatile, mid-range screeners who could outshoot a fair few enemies while also being as melee-formidable as Space Marines, and Krootox are similarly versatile, being big punch-apes with an autocannon strapped on.

Unfortunately, power creep has taken them from being as strong as Marines in close combat to... uh, significantly less impactful. And jacking them up to be stronger would come with a hefty cost, until they're too expensive to be viable "chaff" (which they're not really meant to be), but their durability also isn't high enough to keep them alive for. To my mind, Kroot aren't the "melee units" so much as the "counterattack" or "interdiction" units; they're not meant to go toe-to-toe with Berserkers, they're meant to harass and threaten and obstruct and provide an escape route for your Tau. Be just strong enough in each arena of the game that they can't be ignored by the opponent. I'd definitely give them something like universal Heroic Intervention.

Or just make Vespid heavy assault specialists, akin to assault marines but more geared towards dealing with heavy infantry.
If they have claws that can rip through armor than that's a clear indicator as to what their role should be.

Also they are based on wasps, which are bloody scary apex predators.

Vespid are a difficult one.

Back in 5th edition there arguably a little more mobile than Crisis suits, as they had Move Through Cover (allowing them to safely jump around terrain). They also moved 12" in the movement phase, rather than 6" then 6" again.

But yeah, they fly so close to Crisis Suits they really struggle to distinguish themselves.

Hence why I really think they should be the true assault specialists of a T'au list.
If you want to shoot stuff get battlesuits.
If you want to take an objective quickly and kill heavy infantry in the assault phase, take vespids.
Maybe give them a stratagem that basically rips off the Chyrsallids from XCOM, where they lay eggs in the enemy and it replenishes vespid losses after they burst out of the poor git or something.

Kroot would be assault specialists more geared with dealing with chaff, similar to how Necron Flayed Ones work. They'd have more attacks than vespids, but not much AP, strength or damage.
Maybe give them some sort of ability that gives them buffs if they wipe out an enemy unit, to represent them adapting after eating an enemy.

Giving Vespid sharp claws is a good idea. AP2, would D2 be too far?

I don't like the idea of giving Kroot buffs for killing people. I know they can integrate some of their food's DNA but it's a really slow process. That's the whole point of shapers, so they have a wise leader to guide their diet and adaptations over potentially many generations needed to see proper effects.
But making them a chaff killer should definitely be the case.

Yeah AP-2 D2 seems right. Question is though how many attacks they should have. 3 I guess? That seems pretty standard among assault specialists.
The neutron blaster would probably have to nerfed though, since their killing power would ideally come from melee and not shooting.

Fair point about the Kroot, maybe it should be more of a beginning of game stratagem.

It doesn't help that the people writing the Tau codexes haven't understood the role of Kroot for quite some time.

Just look at the changes they made to them in the 6th edition codex. They dropped them to strength 3 from strength 4, took away Kroot Rifles counting as two weapons and so giving an extra attack, and then gave them an upgrade which gives them a Heavy 1 Sniper Rifle.

It was basically a complete 180 degree turn in terms of what the unit was meant to do. Take the auxiliary which the Tau use for close quarters combat and ambushes in dense forest and jungle terrain and make them worse at close combat and less mobile if you want them to use the one upgrade they have access to. It was obvious that Vetock was probably given a crib sheet which said "Tau shoot stuff" and approached it with the view that meant everything in the book should be oriented towards that. We should probably just count ourselves lucky that Kroot Hounds didn't lose their I5 and 2 attacks in exchange for a 6" heavy 1 S3 AP0 spit attack.

The Kroot should be guerrilla forces, utilising hit and run attacks to target weaker elements of the enemy force and harassing the enemy vanguard while the main Tau forces set up a killzone to eliminate the main enemy force. How you'd go about representing this in modern 40K? I have no idea, honestly. It's the kind of warfare that you cannot recreate without having a real morale system, some level of a simulation of command systems, using your vanguard to locate the enemy etc.

Yeah those were weird changes.
They went from sneaky assault units to snipers in an army that isn't hurting for ranged attacks.
Wasn't the change to give them a sniper rifle in the same edition rail rifles made an appearance? That was backwards.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah those were weird changes.
They went from sneaky assault units to snipers in an army that isn't hurting for ranged attacks.
Wasn't the change to give them a sniper rifle in the same edition rail rifles made an appearance? That was backwards.

Nah, Rail Rifles were a thing in the 4th edition codex. They just weren't used much as you needed your squishy pathfinders to paint stuff with markerlights as marker drones were very expensive and could only accompany battlesuits (where you wanted Shield Drones) and the only other markerlight source in the book other than Pathfinders or Drones was the Skyray, which was a heavy support slot not used on Broadsides or a Hammerhead. Almost doubling the costs of a 1w infantry model with a 5+ save for a single Heavy S6 AP1 shot at 36" while removing its main role of supporting other units wasn't a great trade.

Plus the rail rifle pathfinder models were metal/resin and had the same issues you had with bendy railguns found on the Broadside, but in miniature.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

So flank the terrain. Seriously, this is not an argument against JSJ. An army having an ability which actually requires the opponent to make use of movement and planning to counter? That is how armies should work! How many times do we see people complaining about how the game had just become about clustering up around characters with auras and shooting until the opponent was dead? Units which punish that style of play by requiring the use of movement to counter are a good thing!

Crisis suits could move a maximum of 12" with JSJ in 4th and 5th edition. If you couldn't pin them down then you either built an army with zero mobility or you refused to use that mobility to deny a safe harbour for the suits to retreat to.

You want to know who the real culprits of JSJ were? Jetbikes, because it was literally impossible to pin them down because they could turboboost away across the board, on top of them being more mobile than jet pack units at a base level (12" normal move vs 6").

It’s a very different game from 4th and 5th edition. JSJ now gives the ability to touch into terrain with one model, shoot, and then shuffle back to become ineligible for targeting. Eventually you can flank the terrain but that will be at least two turns for the Tau to shoot you without punishment. You could flank them easier with deepstrike but I don’t think I have to tell you why deepstriking near a Tau gun line is a terrible thing. Run the gauntlet of Tau shooting is not a great strategy.

The real elephant for JSJ is the broadside of course. Regardless of you feelings on it, it has all the relevant keywords right now. It would be even more abusive with the ability to move from shooting to being out of line of sight. Fundamentally it’s just not a fun mechanic to have units that can target your army while remaining safe themselves. It was bad on eliminators, it’s bad on hive guard, and will be bad on battlesuits.

For the record though. I think they will get it. They handed a similar ability to the grey knights so I think the writing is on the wall. I just hope it’s a 1/3 stratagem so 1 for a 5 man unit of crisis suits or stealth suits and 3 for the riptide, ghostkeel, characters, and larger units of crisis suits.

The Broadside doesn't have the Jet Pack keyword.

I also strongly disagree with turning key and iconic abilities or wargear of units into stratagems. Either a unit should be able to do a thing, or it shouldn't. Stratagems which replace abilities or wargear just create stupid situations where only one of your crisis teams know how to use their jet packs, or only one of your rhinos knows how to use its smoke launchers, or only one of your units of grots knows how to get in the way of bullets etc.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The Broadside doesn't have the Jet Pack keyword.

I also strongly disagree with turning key and iconic abilities or wargear of units into stratagems. Either a unit should be able to do a thing, or it shouldn't. Stratagems which replace abilities or wargear just create stupid situations where only one of your crisis teams know how to use their jet packs, or only one of your rhinos knows how to use its smoke launchers, or only one of your units of grots knows how to get in the way of bullets etc.

That's my mistake, I was thinking of the riptide but broadside was what leapt to mind. I'm two battle suits outdated for what I remember the heavy suit being . That thing being able to fire and fall back behind obscuring terrain is a bid absurd. For that matter letting a cold star commander use that with a 20" move sounds miserable as well. Letting the Tau player pick one unit to use it on sees like a good compromise between letting no unit or every single stealth suit, crisis suit, commander, ghostkeel, and riptide do it.

I mean, there's no reason that a second jump has to use the same Movement as the first jump. Limiting it to 6" gives you a lot of flexibility.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I mean, there's no reason that a second jump has to use the same Movement as the first jump. Limiting it to 6" gives you a lot of flexibility.

I'd personally be fine with a 1:1 or 2:1 split. That is to say, if Space Marine Jump Packs give a 12" move, make Tau Jet Packs into a 6"/6" move, or an 8"/4" move. That'd make Riptides and Ghostkeels into 9"/9" or 12"/6" (or bump them down to 8"/8" or 10"/5"), and you could handle Coldstar by turning into a Crisis Suit-sized AIRCRAFT that can only use its jet pack while "hovering" at normal move.

How you actually "split up" that move comes down to how the second move actually works, and what you want out of it. In 7e, it was effectively an Advance that took place after your Shooting; I'd prefer for it to take place before or after your shooting, because that means you're more likely to see Crisis Suits or Stealth Suits moving the full distance in order to take advantage of Rapid Fire plasma rifles or extra damage on fusion blasters. It could be an Advance; I'd personally prefer it to be a Normal Move, just because the only thing making it an Advance really does is penalise getting in close with plasma rifles, which... I mean, you could make them stronger and that'd be a worthwhile trade, but right now it probably isn't.

So for me, 8"/4" makes sense; it's effectively an extra Advance (4" instead of 3.5") and it's just enough to juke out of line of sight or out of easy charge range while still firing at half-range, without allowing the unit to leap over whole terrain features.

I'd just go back to 6/6 for all jet pack equipped troops. It is easy to remember.

As for how it works, again go back to the basics. "In the charge subphase of the assault phase, a model with the jet pack keyword which is not already engaged in close combat can forgo making a charge move to instead move 6" using its normal rules for moving in the movement phase (may not end within 1" of an enemy model, can go over terrain etc. etc.)" or whatever terms GW currently uses to describe all these things.

Simple and clean.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

As for how it works, again go back to the basics. "In the charge subphase of the assault phase, a model with the jet pack keyword which is not engaged in close combat can forgo making a charge move to move 6" using its normal rules for moving in the movement phase (may not end within 1" of an enemy model, can go over terrain etc. etc.)"

Might as well just say "...a normal move as if were the movement phase". Consistent with other wording and addresses all of that other stuff.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The Broadside doesn't have the Jet Pack keyword.

I also strongly disagree with turning key and iconic abilities or wargear of units into stratagems. Either a unit should be able to do a thing, or it shouldn't. Stratagems which replace abilities or wargear just create stupid situations where only one of your crisis teams know how to use their jet packs, or only one of your rhinos knows how to use its smoke launchers, or only one of your units of grots knows how to get in the way of bullets etc.

That's my mistake, I was thinking of the riptide but broadside was what leapt to mind. I'm two battle suits outdated for what I remember the heavy suit being . That thing being able to fire and fall back behind obscuring terrain is a bid absurd. For that matter letting a cold star commander use that with a 20" move sounds miserable as well. Letting the Tau player pick one unit to use it on sees like a good compromise between letting no unit or every single stealth suit, crisis suit, commander, ghostkeel, and riptide do it.

Ah, fair enough! Well, my thoughts on the Riptide were made quite obvious in a previous post and if I'd designed it then it would be a lot harder for it to do so due to having much shorter range weaponry. It is a lot easier to get LOS on a unit trying to hide behind a building in the centre of the table than one doing the same thing in the enemy deployment zone.

And yes, the Coldstar shouldn't be able to JSJ when moving flat out. JSJ represents using the jetpack to make small manoeuvres, whereas the coldstar is more like flooring it.

So I'd have the Coldstar have two movement profiles which it can switch between at the beginning of the controlling players turn. If it is using the 20" move profile, it loses the Jet pack keyword. If using a standard crisis suit move profile, it has the jet pack keyword.

Or just say that the Coldstar suit has been modified to allow for faster flight but that such modifications resulted in a trade off of agility, with the jet pack thrusters being less capable of sudden changes in direction in order to protect the pilot from sudden changes in g-forces. As such the Coldstar cannot JSJ and loses the jet pack keyword, instead gaining the flight pack and/or aircraft keywords.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

As for how it works, again go back to the basics. "In the charge subphase of the assault phase, a model with the jet pack keyword which is not engaged in close combat can forgo making a charge move to move 6" using its normal rules for moving in the movement phase (may not end within 1" of an enemy model, can go over terrain etc. etc.)"

Might as well just say "...a normal move as if were the movement phase". Consistent with other wording and addresses all of that other stuff.

Fair enough!

there is absolutely no way in the entire universe that anyone who plays the various melee-oriented armies (Marines being the main one, but also Ork players, daemon players, etc) would accept Kroot and Krootox being made enough of a melee threat that they would fill the hole in Tau's current paradigm (i.e. the inability to push an enemy off of an objective and seize that objective.)

Kroot are in essence slightly melee-oriented Guardsmen. The absolute maximum level of effectiveness I can see people accepting the blades on the end of a kroot rifle being would be roughly the power level of a Tzaangor (so about 2A, S4, Ap-1 D1) which would be nowhere near enough to push a unit of intercessors or plague marines or custodes or necron immortals off of an objective.

JSJ could work for this, the main problem I see making it the signature mechanic to address the need to seize objectives is just how vehemently hated it is and always has been whenever it crops up. It's like if you wanted to base an army's identity around sniping out enemy characters: it simply would not be allowed to ever approach an average power level, the deluge of tears from the people that get so incredibly butthurt and mad any time they lose a character would inevitably force them back down. Every sniper unit in the game is kept at an INSANELY artificially low power level for their cost for exactly that reason, because emotionally players cannot cope with losing a character before all their surrounding units are wiped out, that is the only acceptable way for a character to die.

People do not like:

-when an army has mechanics that deny too many of the rules their army has
-when characters do die
-when non-character units, especially vehicles, don't die when they do all their special offensive stuff
-when rules make it so they cannot target a unit

JSJ causes #1 and #4 all the time - JSJ away from an enemy charge, JSJ behind obscuring terrain after you shoot, etc. the only way I can see JSJ being a mechanic people accept is if it is a special thing that ONLY allows consolidation onto an objective after destroying an enemy unit, ala a consolidation move after a charge.

As an example, let's say Tau have two Universal Army-wide Rules:

Mont'ka and Kau'yon: All Tau units can either employ the Mont'ka or Kau'yon doctrine during their turn. If Mont'ka is declared for a unit, if it destroys an enemy unit with an attack, it may make an immediate 6" move as if it were the movement phase, and it must end that move closer to the closest Objective marker on the battlefield. If Kau'yon is declared for a unit, that unit can Overwatch as if it had used the Overwatch stratagem any time an enemy unit declares a charge against them.

I think that is almost entirely a Space Marine mindset, especially regarding the characters dying.

No other army (apart from Eldar who invented the rule for their phoenix lords, if I remember right) got the glut of characters with Eternal Warrior, or wargear that granted the rule, that Space Marines got. So we had to put up with all of our characters, even our most iconic special characters, being able to be killed by a single krak missile from a tactical marine while the generic Space Marine captain opposite could tank railgun shots all game thanks to a 3++ save and immunity to instant death which cost the same points as a 4++ save for the Tau.

Can we have some of that sweet homogenization, where kroot get basically the same stats as like costed units? Tau get equal or better shooting than like costed units, leaning towards better as that's their entire schtick. I'd also really love it if krootox became basically bullgryn.

Tau in Killteam are still BS4+.
I know it doesn't necessarily translate but I wouldn't expect Tau shooting to actually improve.

 the_scotsman wrote:
there is absolutely no way in the entire universe that anyone who plays the various melee-oriented armies (Marines being the main one, but also Ork players, daemon players, etc) would accept Kroot and Krootox being made enough of a melee threat that they would fill the hole in Tau's current paradigm (i.e. the inability to push an enemy off of an objective and seize that objective.)

Players will gripe about any change that takes the advantage away from them, that's nothing new.. If they don't like it and they can't deal with a S3 / T3 unit, then they should get good. An army shouldn't suffer because of marine players' inability to adapt.

 the_scotsman wrote:


Kroot are in essence slightly melee-oriented Guardsmen. The absolute maximum level of effectiveness I can see people accepting the blades on the end of a kroot rifle being would be roughly the power level of a Tzaangor (so about 2A, S4, Ap-1 D1) which would be nowhere near enough to push a unit of intercessors or plague marines or custodes or necron immortals off of an objective.

No was suggesting them to be able to dominate heavy infantry, the suggestion was for them to be chaff clearers. Are marines and immortals chaff?
So kroot would have 3-4 attacks, but only at S4, D1 with probably AP-1.
Vespids were suggested as heavy melee infantry, and they have the fluff to back them up.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Kroot are in essence slightly melee-oriented Guardsmen. The absolute maximum level of effectiveness I can see people accepting the blades on the end of a kroot rifle being would be roughly the power level of a Tzaangor (so about 2A, S4, Ap-1 D1) which would be nowhere near enough to push a unit of intercessors or plague marines or custodes or necron immortals off of an objective.

Back in the day they were actually closer to squishy Marines; identical to Assault Marines in melee (2 WS4 S4 attacks) with a worse bolter (AP6 vs AP5) at -1BS. They had a worse Save, obviously (3+ vs 6+/5+), but they moved faster and shot better in terrain, and had an extra +1 to cover saves, and could infiltrate. Probably the most direct translation would b=have been Space Marine Scouts with camo cloaks and bolters who also got to have a combat knife, but traded -1BS/AP at range and -1Sv for being half the cost.

Power creep has taken 2 S4 attacks far below the acceptable threshold for "melee threat". A direct 1:1 match after power creep would place Kroot at 2 S4 AP-1 attacks, with a conditional +1A... and even then they definitely need something to make them more attractive.

The way I see it, there are two elements that need to be considered: What Tau want out of Kroot, and how Kroot are meant to behave. Tau want a melee contingent that can push enemies off objectives with Objective Secured, and intervene to keep their shooters shooting and not tied up or dead in combat. Kroot are meant to behave as skirmishers, guerillas, and vicious ambush units. They're meant to be good at lurking in cover, covering T'au positions, and disrupting the enemy's advance. They're meant to be relatively scary melee combatants, especially on the ambush, but they're never depicted as being tough enough for a drawn-out fight, and they're certainly not Berserker-tier killing machines.

So Kroot as a unit that lurks around in cover (preferably cover that an objective is in) and takes pot-shots at enemy units, before rushing out to help their Tau buddies, seems like it'd fit the bill? Something like:

That seems pretty fair, I like that write up.

Depleted Ion rounds is too strong for a unit that can be 20 strong and so could potentially be throwing out 40 shooting attacks. 3 mortal wounds on average rolls on top of normal damage from a basic infantry squad with no targeting limitation other than 12" range? Nope!

It also makes the Pulse rifle look pointless next to a Kroot rifle and its scavenged rounds. Especially when the Kroot rifle is firing pulse rounds as standard.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Depleted Ion rounds is too strong for a unit that can be 20 strong and so could potentially be throwing out 40 shooting attacks. 3 mortal wounds on average rolls on top of normal damage from a basic infantry squad with no targeting limitation other than 12" range? Nope!

It also makes the Pulse rifle look pointless next to a Kroot rifle and its scavenged rounds. Especially when the Kroot rifle is firing pulse rounds as standard.

Yeah they don't really need that strat. They are supposed to be melee, not shooty. Being able to snipe is already strong enough.
The base stats and rules seem fine to me though.

Why not just make Ethereals psykers?

 Nurglitch wrote:
Why not just make Ethereals psykers?

Because they aren't psykers?
That's more role for auxiliary units anyway.