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I'm still floating around here because I'd like to get back into wargaming and GW games are an easy way in. Unfortunately, both of the big games have serious problems that are really offputting to me, so I am watching and waiting to see how things develop (they release new editions very fast now, so I don't have to wait too long each time).

I'm not miserable, I'm actually quite content, but I'm also pretty sure of my tastes in games and I know that I will dislike the stratagem focus in 40K and how spread out all the rules are quite a bit. The basic chassis for the rules seems better than in 6e and 7e but all the additions kinda kill it for me. With AoS I'm almost there but for Double Turn, which to me is just terrible design that I would not be able to tolerate.

But I'd like to be persuaded otherwise, because it would be convenient for me to enjoy GW games again. In the meantime I've got One Page Rules and playing games with my wife if she feels like it or teaching people from my D&D group how to wargame with those simpler rulesets. Only downside is I have to provide everything myself, but that's just a big hobby project really, isn't it?

The Warhammer + announcement made me pretty miserable.

They're literally gating all of the new animations behind a subscription, on a website only some fans even knows exists. Instead of you know, putting them on a streaming platform for the masses to see.

Jarms48 wrote:
The Warhammer + announcement made me pretty miserable.

They're literally gating all of the new animations behind a subscription, on a website only some fans even knows exists. Instead of you know, putting them on a streaming platform for the masses to see.

Warhammer + is a bloody joke.
Brow beating free youtube content with thinly veiled blackmail and forcing them to partner with Games Workshop and then paywalling it? LMFAO.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:
The Warhammer + announcement made me pretty miserable.

They're literally gating all of the new animations behind a subscription, on a website only some fans even knows exists. Instead of you know, putting them on a streaming platform for the masses to see.

Warhammer + is a bloody joke.
Brow beating free youtube content with thinly veiled blackmail and forcing them to partner with Games Workshop and then paywalling it? LMFAO.

Pretty sure no one put a gun to their head. Blackmail, to my limited legal knowledge, is illegal in the UK. Forced labor would also be illegal.

Seabass wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:
The Warhammer + announcement made me pretty miserable.

They're literally gating all of the new animations behind a subscription, on a website only some fans even knows exists. Instead of you know, putting them on a streaming platform for the masses to see.

Warhammer + is a bloody joke.
Brow beating free youtube content with thinly veiled blackmail and forcing them to partner with Games Workshop and then paywalling it? LMFAO.

Pretty sure no one put a gun to their head. Blackmail, to my limited legal knowledge, is illegal in the UK. Forced labor would also be illegal.

It was certainly legal but let's be fair they were most likely told "Come work for us and we will let you continue your projects. Otherwise, expect a cease and desist in the mail shortly."

balmong7 wrote:

Seabass wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:
The Warhammer + announcement made me pretty miserable.

They're literally gating all of the new animations behind a subscription, on a website only some fans even knows exists. Instead of you know, putting them on a streaming platform for the masses to see.

Warhammer + is a bloody joke.
Brow beating free youtube content with thinly veiled blackmail and forcing them to partner with Games Workshop and then paywalling it? LMFAO.

Pretty sure no one put a gun to their head. Blackmail, to my limited legal knowledge, is illegal in the UK. Forced labor would also be illegal.

It was certainly legal but let's be fair they were most likely told "Come work for us and we will let you continue your projects. Otherwise, expect a cease and desist in the mail shortly."

It's their property, It is difficult for me to blame them. The characterization that this is blackmail or forced labor is absolutely ludicrous.

Thing is, these authors, using GW's property, something they did not own, and likely knew full well could have been given a C&D based on those facts, had so much love for the material that they dedicated what I could only guess is countless hours of labor into it because it spoke to them on both an achievement level, and on an entertainment level. Now they get to do that for a living. I've said it before, ill say it again. I pray we should all be so lucky.

Just imagine the technical skill required to create something like that. As a counselor, my brain doesn't function along the lines of vertices, angles, advanced geometry, calculus, and code. It just doesn't. For me to see someone do that, BECAUSE they love it, KNOWING it could get knocked down, is exactly who I WANT to support and subscribe to see their work. Maybe their first foray into the field won't be as impressive, maybe it'll have problems, but that level of dedication survives critique in my experience.

To have that level of dedication to something, and then be asked to be part of the team that does it, pays for it, and can help create it? With support, collaboration, and capability of others?

Like I said, should we all be so lucky.

Seabass wrote:

balmong7 wrote:

Seabass wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:
The Warhammer + announcement made me pretty miserable.

They're literally gating all of the new animations behind a subscription, on a website only some fans even knows exists. Instead of you know, putting them on a streaming platform for the masses to see.

Warhammer + is a bloody joke.
Brow beating free youtube content with thinly veiled blackmail and forcing them to partner with Games Workshop and then paywalling it? LMFAO.

Pretty sure no one put a gun to their head. Blackmail, to my limited legal knowledge, is illegal in the UK. Forced labor would also be illegal.

It was certainly legal but let's be fair they were most likely told "Come work for us and we will let you continue your projects. Otherwise, expect a cease and desist in the mail shortly."

It's their property, It is difficult for me to blame them. The characterization that this is blackmail or forced labor is absolutely ludicrous.

Thing is, these authors, using GW's property, something they did not own, and likely knew full well could have been given a C&D based on those facts, had so much love for the material that they dedicated what I could only guess is countless hours of labor into it because it spoke to them on both an achievement level, and on an entertainment level. Now they get to do that for a living. I've said it before, ill say it again. I pray we should all be so lucky.

Just imagine the technical skill required to create something like that. As a counselor, my brain doesn't function along the lines of vertices, angles, advanced geometry, calculus, and code. It just doesn't. For me to see someone do that, BECAUSE they love it, KNOWING it could get knocked down, is exactly who I WANT to support and subscribe to see their work. Maybe their first foray into the field won't be as impressive, maybe it'll have problems, but that level of dedication survives critique in my experience.

To have that level of dedication to something, and then be asked to be part of the team that does it, pays for it, and can help create it? With support, collaboration, and capability of others?

Like I said, should we all be so lucky.

That is a fine theory but how do we know it will lead to them having a fine career working for GW to do this ? What if it is just a single job or really nothing much at all outside a talk or a discussion or a PR move to toss a coin there way and strip down their work anyways ? So far we haven't seen how these jobs will turn out for them. Just because something was handled legally doesn't mean it will be good for them in the end.

Sure, I hope everything works out for them but you should know better than most how there isn't always a happy ending, life just doesn't work that way and companies don't really care if they make people happy or make dreams come true, they just care about our money.

These people were talented and skilled and even worse comes to worse they should be alright with the skills they have, this may be far from a dream come true for them though. The devil is always in details of which we currently know little.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:

Seabass wrote:

balmong7 wrote:

Seabass wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:
The Warhammer + announcement made me pretty miserable.

They're literally gating all of the new animations behind a subscription, on a website only some fans even knows exists. Instead of you know, putting them on a streaming platform for the masses to see.

Warhammer + is a bloody joke.
Brow beating free youtube content with thinly veiled blackmail and forcing them to partner with Games Workshop and then paywalling it? LMFAO.

Pretty sure no one put a gun to their head. Blackmail, to my limited legal knowledge, is illegal in the UK. Forced labor would also be illegal.

It was certainly legal but let's be fair they were most likely told "Come work for us and we will let you continue your projects. Otherwise, expect a cease and desist in the mail shortly."

It's their property, It is difficult for me to blame them. The characterization that this is blackmail or forced labor is absolutely ludicrous.

Thing is, these authors, using GW's property, something they did not own, and likely knew full well could have been given a C&D based on those facts, had so much love for the material that they dedicated what I could only guess is countless hours of labor into it because it spoke to them on both an achievement level, and on an entertainment level. Now they get to do that for a living. I've said it before, ill say it again. I pray we should all be so lucky.

Just imagine the technical skill required to create something like that. As a counselor, my brain doesn't function along the lines of vertices, angles, advanced geometry, calculus, and code. It just doesn't. For me to see someone do that, BECAUSE they love it, KNOWING it could get knocked down, is exactly who I WANT to support and subscribe to see their work. Maybe their first foray into the field won't be as impressive, maybe it'll have problems, but that level of dedication survives critique in my experience.

To have that level of dedication to something, and then be asked to be part of the team that does it, pays for it, and can help create it? With support, collaboration, and capability of others?

Like I said, should we all be so lucky.

That is a fine theory but how do we know it will lead to them having a fine career working for GW to do this ? What if it is just a single job or really nothing much at all outside a talk or a discussion or a PR move to toss a coin there way and strip down their work anyways ? So far we haven't seen how these jobs will turn out for them. Just because something was handled legally doesn't mean it will be good for them in the end.

Sure, I hope everything works out for them but you should know better than most how there isn't always a happy ending, life just doesn't work that way and companies don't really care if they make people happy or make dreams come true, they just care about our money.

These people were talented and skilled and even worse comes to worse they should be alright with the skills they have, this may be far from a dream come true for them though. The devil is always in details of which we currently know little.

Honestly? While I hope it turns out well for them, in the end.... I don't really care.
And I don't mind at all if GW did this just to shut down these peoples 40k projects.

It's their property, It is difficult for me to blame them. The characterization that this is blackmail or forced labor is absolutely ludicrous.

Thing is, these authors, using GW's property, something they did not own, and likely knew full well could have been given a C&D based on those facts, had so much love for the material that they dedicated what I could only guess is countless hours of labor into it because it spoke to them on both an achievement level, and on an entertainment level. Now they get to do that for a living. I've said it before, ill say it again. I pray we should all be so lucky.

Just imagine the technical skill required to create something like that. As a counselor, my brain doesn't function along the lines of vertices, angles, advanced geometry, calculus, and code. It just doesn't. For me to see someone do that, BECAUSE they love it, KNOWING it could get knocked down, is exactly who I WANT to support and subscribe to see their work. Maybe their first foray into the field won't be as impressive, maybe it'll have problems, but that level of dedication survives critique in my experience.

To have that level of dedication to something, and then be asked to be part of the team that does it, pays for it, and can help create it? With support, collaboration, and capability of others?

Like I said, should we all be so lucky.

No. As someone who's brain DOES function along those lines, there are a lot of different ways GW could have handled this that would have protected their IP, given the creators MORE money, and still allowed them some degree of freedom for work outside of "Work for us or else." This kind of thing has been a plague in the industry for a long time. It's a lot less common now than it used to be, but yeah. This could have been handled a lot differently. I hope the creators end up in genuinely good spots. They are currently in extremely precarious positions with wildly uncertain futures, and GW's track record with creatives of this type is ... not good ...

The days of the "starving artist" are kind of over, and it's never been easier to make money with art/design/writing than it is right now. So it's not a case of "Look at GW elevating these poor starving artists and giving them a shot." It really isn't.

Tycho wrote:

It's their property, It is difficult for me to blame them. The characterization that this is blackmail or forced labor is absolutely ludicrous.

Thing is, these authors, using GW's property, something they did not own, and likely knew full well could have been given a C&D based on those facts, had so much love for the material that they dedicated what I could only guess is countless hours of labor into it because it spoke to them on both an achievement level, and on an entertainment level. Now they get to do that for a living. I've said it before, ill say it again. I pray we should all be so lucky.

Just imagine the technical skill required to create something like that. As a counselor, my brain doesn't function along the lines of vertices, angles, advanced geometry, calculus, and code. It just doesn't. For me to see someone do that, BECAUSE they love it, KNOWING it could get knocked down, is exactly who I WANT to support and subscribe to see their work. Maybe their first foray into the field won't be as impressive, maybe it'll have problems, but that level of dedication survives critique in my experience.

To have that level of dedication to something, and then be asked to be part of the team that does it, pays for it, and can help create it? With support, collaboration, and capability of others?

Like I said, should we all be so lucky.

No. As someone who's brain DOES function along those lines, there are a lot of different ways GW could have handled this that would have protected their IP, given the creators MORE money, and still allowed them some degree of freedom for work outside of "Work for us or else." This kind of thing has been a plague in the industry for a long time. It's a lot less common now than it used to be, but yeah. This could have been handled a lot differently. I hope the creators end up in genuinely good spots. They are currently in extremely precarious positions with wildly uncertain futures, and GW's track record with creatives of this type is ... not good ...

The days of the "starving artist" are kind of over, and it's never been easier to make money with art/design/writing than it is right now. So it's not a case of "Look at GW elevating these poor starving artists and giving them a shot." It really isn't.

Can you help me understand how they could have done so? I truly don't understand what options were on the table for something like this. I don't see how they can achieve developer freedom, protecting their IP, and giving the creator more money at the same time, but I freely admit I don't know much about the creative licensing process and how art is bought and paid for in a situation like this.

Your reply is also plagued by a lot of assumptions. I'm not sure how much more precarious you can get than relying on patreon for support to keep making a series. We also have absolutely no clue if their futures are uncertain, and can we say that their futures are more uncertain now than they were when they were doing it for fun and pulling in support from Patreon? I know there was a lot of cash going into Patreon for some of the individual developers, but that is literally one month away from drying up, especially if nothing new is dropped. We see bursts of initiatives like this all the time only to fizzle out, despite the appreciation of the fans of it.

the last point I have to make is, well, It's their property. They are developing their own animated series, and if they don't want competition from their own IP, It's really hard for me to blame them. I also can't help but wonder how much more content we will get now that Astartes II has a development team on it. the first one was in total 12 or so minutes. A freaking GREAT 12 or so minutes, but 12 or so minutes. Now that is likely to change.

Now, if you feel it is immoral for GW to do that, that's a personal perspective and while I disagree, I can understand that, but looking at this from a position that all outcomes are negative feels like the positives are just being pushed over in the hopes of denigrating GW, and I'm not sure thats accurate.

ccs wrote:

Honestly? While I hope it turns out well for them, in the end.... I don't really care.
And I don't mind at all if GW did this just to shut down these peoples 40k projects.

How's that boot taste?

 Arbitrator wrote:

ccs wrote:

Honestly? While I hope it turns out well for them, in the end.... I don't really care.
And I don't mind at all if GW did this just to shut down these peoples 40k projects.

How's that boot taste?

You've mistaken me for someone else.

For the record I'm in support of any IP holder, GW or otherwise,, exercising their rights. Always have been, always will be.
Coul be GW, Disney, who ever holds Harry Potter, Star Trek, Transformers, YOU (were you talented/lucky enough to own an IP), me, or fill in as many blanks as there are things people create FanFic projects for.

Nor do I care how the IP holders choose to exercise those rights. They could ignore it, they could send C&Ds, they could sorta accept it like a bunch of Trek stuff is, they could sue the offender into oblivion, or as with this buy it out & give the "fan" a job.
Wich they pick doesn't matter to me because it's thier property to manage.

As for these "fans", accepting Patreon $ to create stuff using someone else's IP?
They knew damned well what they were doing. They aren't some innocent being oppressed by the eeevil company. Nope, just talented IP violators who got lucky.

Can you help me understand how they could have done so? I truly don't understand what options were on the table for something like this. I don't see how they can achieve developer freedom, protecting their IP, and giving the creator more money at the same time, but I freely admit I don't know much about the creative licensing process and how art is bought and paid for in a situation like this.

Sure. In many such cases, particularly where you have a parent company (GW in this case) who has the IP but NOT the actual media/studio, and no pipeline for production or distribution, it's become pretty common place to do a combination of things. Typically, it involves treating the creators akin to private contractors who will have had to sign NDAs. Allowing them to work on the "GW" project while getting paid far more for the project and maintaining their freedom to do other things. Often also involves things like points on the back end for larger projects (major movies for example), or moderate royalties, getting a percentage of the subscriber fees, etc. In cases like this, it is, 95% of the time far more advantageous to the creator to remain independent. You never see these extra benefits when someone is brought "in-house". It's less money, less opportunity, and you no longer control your own destiny. I'm not saying it didn't happen that way, but in 22 years ... I've never seen someone get brought in house like this AND get the big money unless they were a really high-up studio head. GW did this because they had legal leverage, the people were high-end talent, and they could get them on the cheap. It's not the first time it's been done this way.

Your reply is also plagued by a lot of assumptions. I'm not sure how much more precarious you can get than relying on patreon for support to keep making a series. We also have absolutely no clue if their futures are uncertain, and can we say that their futures are more uncertain now than they were when they were doing it for fun and pulling in support from Patreon? I know there was a lot of cash going into Patreon for some of the individual developers, but that is literally one month away from drying up, especially if nothing new is dropped. We see bursts of initiatives like this all the time only to fizzle out, despite the appreciation of the fans of it.

Their futures are very uncertain. The last time GW tried their hand at this, they about put the studio they worked with out of business. It's a small industry. People talk. You can say "But that was a different GW!". In some ways yes. In many others no. Suffice it say, "Ultramarines" wasn't a flop because of the studio who made it ...

Now GW wants to try its hand at high-end content creation. They have mismanaged every single tech attempt they have ever tried. Utterly bungled. Even the website is fairly pants. What they're doing here is about to cost them a small fortune. I do not think they will have the stomach to maintain it once they realize how much of a drain it is on the bottom line. Even top studios run on razor thin margins. I don't see GW supporting this long - term, and they don't seem to be bringing in the people who know how to RUN something like the service they're trying to put together. It's an elephant balanced on a house of cards. As long as the cards are set just so, as long as the elephant doesn't shift at all, things will be totally fine. lol

Conversely, if you are a top content creator (as many of these folks are) generating money for your venture is insanely easy. You mention Patreon. No one who is worth anything uses JUST Patreon for this type of thing. Especially people like the Astartes creator. As an established industry vet, I'd be shocked if he didn't have multiple side-sources set up. For creators like this, Patreon is often the 3rd/4th source of cash flow and is rarely relied upon as the sole source (unless it'sa hobby type project like a lot of high-end podcasts, etc). There are some assumptions here yes. But not so many as you think.

the last point I have to make is, well, It's their property. They are developing their own animated series, and if they don't want competition from their own IP, It's really hard for me to blame them. I also can't help but wonder how much more content we will get now that Astartes II has a development team on it. the first one was in total 12 or so minutes. A freaking GREAT 12 or so minutes, but 12 or so minutes. Now that is likely to change.

Not at all clear that a "production team" is on it. We've seen marketing talk, but no real data. I would not at all be surprised if what we ended up with was more 1-3 minute clips. GW didn't go after these people to just shut down competition. What they did is a pretty classic entertainment industry move honestly. They picked these people because they got them far cheaper than bringing them in sans implied threat and setting up a studio proper. From what we've seen so far, and from the already troubled path Eisenhorn seems to be taking, I doubt very much it's a proper "studio". My guess is that it's a production coordinator, a marketing manager, and a handful of producers coordinating the creators who are working as they always have.

Now, if you feel it is immoral for GW to do that, that's a personal perspective and while I disagree, I can understand that, but looking at this from a position that all outcomes are negative feels like the positives are just being pushed over in the hopes of denigrating GW, and I'm not sure thats accurate.

Nowhere did I say it was "immoral". I've actually defended some of GW's copyright plays in the past as, often, due to a quirk in how UK IP law apparently works (as explained to me by an IP lawyer), they are kind of forced to be more "aggressive" than even they might want. I'm not looking at this as "all outcomes are negative" I'm looking at it as a professional in that industry who has seen this happen time and again and calling out the fact that some of these creators are being taken advantage of. That's kind of it. You're welcome to disagree as you yourself admit you don't know this area well, but the "we should all be so lucky comment" - no. Just no. Luck has nothing to do with it.

Most of these people were absolutely NOT making money from the GW projects either. If any of them were actually makig real money from it I'd be saying yeah - you all screwed up. But in most cases the patreons here were asking for better computers, better gear etc. It's a fine line that's fair. And I support IP holder's rights to defend their IP, but GW had options here that were better.

Of the routes GW could have gone, I'm bummed out this is the one they took. I said this earlier, but I really hope everything comes out awesome and these creators end up well treated and well compensated. But we're talking about a company with a BAD track record in this area and my hopes are not high.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:
The Warhammer + announcement made me pretty miserable.

They're literally gating all of the new animations behind a subscription, on a website only some fans even knows exists. Instead of you know, putting them on a streaming platform for the masses to see.

Warhammer + is a bloody joke.
Brow beating free youtube content with thinly veiled blackmail and forcing them to partner with Games Workshop and then paywalling it? LMFAO.

You do not LYFAO alone my good sir, never alone!

Tycho wrote:

Can you help me understand how they could have done so? I truly don't understand what options were on the table for something like this. I don't see how they can achieve developer freedom, protecting their IP, and giving the creator more money at the same time, but I freely admit I don't know much about the creative licensing process and how art is bought and paid for in a situation like this.

Sure. In many such cases,

Spoiler:

particularly where you have a parent company (GW in this case) who has the IP but NOT the actual media/studio, and no pipeline for production or distribution, it's become pretty common place to do a combination of things. Typically, it involves treating the creators akin to private contractors who will have had to sign NDAs. Allowing them to work on the "GW" project while getting paid far more for the project and maintaining their freedom to do other things. Often also involves things like points on the back end for larger projects (major movies for example), or moderate royalties, getting a percentage of the subscriber fees, etc. In cases like this, it is, 95% of the time far more advantageous to the creator to remain independent. You never see these extra benefits when someone is brought "in-house". It's less money, less opportunity, and you no longer control your own destiny. I'm not saying it didn't happen that way, but in 22 years ... I've never seen someone get brought in house like this AND get the big money unless they were a really high-up studio head. GW did this because they had legal leverage, the people were high-end talent, and they could get them on the cheap. It's not the first time it's been done this way.

Your reply is also plagued by a lot of assumptions. I'm not sure how much more precarious you can get than relying on patreon for support to keep making a series. We also have absolutely no clue if their futures are uncertain, and can we say that their futures are more uncertain now than they were when they were doing it for fun and pulling in support from Patreon? I know there was a lot of cash going into Patreon for some of the individual developers, but that is literally one month away from drying up, especially if nothing new is dropped. We see bursts of initiatives like this all the time only to fizzle out, despite the appreciation of the fans of it.

Their futures are very uncertain. The last time GW tried their hand at this, they about put the studio they worked with out of business. It's a small industry. People talk. You can say "But that was a different GW!". In some ways yes. In many others no. Suffice it say, "Ultramarines" wasn't a flop because of the studio who made it ...

Now GW wants to try its hand at high-end content creation. They have mismanaged every single tech attempt they have ever tried. Utterly bungled. Even the website is fairly pants. What they're doing here is about to cost them a small fortune. I do not think they will have the stomach to maintain it once they realize how much of a drain it is on the bottom line. Even top studios run on razor thin margins. I don't see GW supporting this long - term, and they don't seem to be bringing in the people who know how to RUN something like the service they're trying to put together. It's an elephant balanced on a house of cards. As long as the cards are set just so, as long as the elephant doesn't shift at all, things will be totally fine. lol

Conversely, if you are a top content creator (as many of these folks are) generating money for your venture is insanely easy. You mention Patreon. No one who is worth anything uses JUST Patreon for this type of thing. Especially people like the Astartes creator. As an established industry vet, I'd be shocked if he didn't have multiple side-sources set up. For creators like this, Patreon is often the 3rd/4th source of cash flow and is rarely relied upon as the sole source (unless it'sa hobby type project like a lot of high-end podcasts, etc). There are some assumptions here yes. But not so many as you think.

the last point I have to make is, well, It's their property. They are developing their own animated series, and if they don't want competition from their own IP, It's really hard for me to blame them. I also can't help but wonder how much more content we will get now that Astartes II has a development team on it. the first one was in total 12 or so minutes. A freaking GREAT 12 or so minutes, but 12 or so minutes. Now that is likely to change.

Not at all clear that a "production team" is on it. We've seen marketing talk, but no real data. I would not at all be surprised if what we ended up with was more 1-3 minute clips. GW didn't go after these people to just shut down competition. What they did is a pretty classic entertainment industry move honestly. They picked these people because they got them far cheaper than bringing them in sans implied threat and setting up a studio proper. From what we've seen so far, and from the already troubled path Eisenhorn seems to be taking, I doubt very much it's a proper "studio". My guess is that it's a production coordinator, a marketing manager, and a handful of producers coordinating the creators who are working as they always have.

Now, if you feel it is immoral for GW to do that, that's a personal perspective and while I disagree, I can understand that, but looking at this from a position that all outcomes are negative feels like the positives are just being pushed over in the hopes of denigrating GW, and I'm not sure thats accurate.

Nowhere did I say it was "immoral". I've actually defended some of GW's copyright plays in the past as, often, due to a quirk in how UK IP law apparently works (as explained to me by an IP lawyer), they are kind of forced to be more "aggressive" than even they might want. I'm not looking at this as "all outcomes are negative" I'm looking at it as a professional in that industry who has seen this happen time and again and calling out the fact that some of these creators are being taken advantage of. That's kind of it. You're welcome to disagree as you yourself admit you don't know this area well, but the "we should all be so lucky comment" - no. Just no. Luck has nothing to do with it.

Most of these people were absolutely NOT making money from the GW projects either. If any of them were actually makig real money from it I'd be saying yeah - you all screwed up. But in most cases the patreons here were asking for better computers, better gear etc. It's a fine line that's fair. And I support IP holder's rights to defend their IP, but GW had options here that were better.

Of the routes GW could have gone, I'm bummed out this is the one they took. I said this earlier, but I really hope everything comes out awesome and these creators end up well treated and well compensated. But we're talking about a company with a BAD track record in this area and my hopes are not high.

Exalted. Thank you for sharing that!

This hobby consists of many sub hobbies, painting, converting, playing etc
Complaining is one of those sub hobbies.

A lot of times the complaints aren't actually that big of a deal to the individual doing the complaining. It's possible to enjoy the game while disliking certain parts. That doesn't make the complaint invalid.

Nah. I don't think you need to do any of the sub things, besides maybe painting. There is no enjoyment lost in the game, if someone has nothing to complain about or if you never converted or read a BL book in your life.

Tycho wrote:

Sure. In many such cases, particularly where you have a parent company (GW in this case) who has the IP but NOT the actual media/studio, and no pipeline for production or distribution, it's become pretty common place to do a combination of things. Typically, it involves treating the creators akin to private contractors who will have had to sign NDAs. Allowing them to work on the "GW" project while getting paid far more for the project and maintaining their freedom to do other things. Often also involves things like points on the back end for larger projects (major movies for example), or moderate royalties, getting a percentage of the subscriber fees, etc. In cases like this, it is, 95% of the time far more advantageous to the creator to remain independent. You never see these extra benefits when someone is brought "in-house". It's less money, less opportunity, and you no longer control your own destiny. I'm not saying it didn't happen that way, but in 22 years ... I've never seen someone get brought in house like this AND get the big money unless they were a really high-up studio head. GW did this because they had legal leverage, the people were high-end talent, and they could get them on the cheap. It's not the first time it's been done this way.

Their futures are very uncertain. The last time GW tried their hand at this, they about put the studio they worked with out of business. It's a small industry. People talk. You can say "But that was a different GW!". In some ways yes. In many others no. Suffice it say, "Ultramarines" wasn't a flop because of the studio who made it ...

Now GW wants to try its hand at high-end content creation. They have mismanaged every single tech attempt they have ever tried. Utterly bungled. Even the website is fairly pants. What they're doing here is about to cost them a small fortune. I do not think they will have the stomach to maintain it once they realize how much of a drain it is on the bottom line. Even top studios run on razor thin margins. I don't see GW supporting this long - term, and they don't seem to be bringing in the people who know how to RUN something like the service they're trying to put together. It's an elephant balanced on a house of cards. As long as the cards are set just so, as long as the elephant doesn't shift at all, things will be totally fine. lol

Conversely, if you are a top content creator (as many of these folks are) generating money for your venture is insanely easy. You mention Patreon. No one who is worth anything uses JUST Patreon for this type of thing. Especially people like the Astartes creator. As an established industry vet, I'd be shocked if he didn't have multiple side-sources set up. For creators like this, Patreon is often the 3rd/4th source of cash flow and is rarely relied upon as the sole source (unless it'sa hobby type project like a lot of high-end podcasts, etc). There are some assumptions here yes. But not so many as you think.

Not at all clear that a "production team" is on it. We've seen marketing talk, but no real data. I would not at all be surprised if what we ended up with was more 1-3 minute clips. GW didn't go after these people to just shut down competition. What they did is a pretty classic entertainment industry move honestly. They picked these people because they got them far cheaper than bringing them in sans implied threat and setting up a studio proper. From what we've seen so far, and from the already troubled path Eisenhorn seems to be taking, I doubt very much it's a proper "studio". My guess is that it's a production coordinator, a marketing manager, and a handful of producers coordinating the creators who are working as they always have.

Nowhere did I say it was "immoral". I've actually defended some of GW's copyright plays in the past as, often, due to a quirk in how UK IP law apparently works (as explained to me by an IP lawyer), they are kind of forced to be more "aggressive" than even they might want. I'm not looking at this as "all outcomes are negative" I'm looking at it as a professional in that industry who has seen this happen time and again and calling out the fact that some of these creators are being taken advantage of. That's kind of it. You're welcome to disagree as you yourself admit you don't know this area well, but the "we should all be so lucky comment" - no. Just no. Luck has nothing to do with it.

Most of these people were absolutely NOT making money from the GW projects either. If any of them were actually makig real money from it I'd be saying yeah - you all screwed up. But in most cases the patreons here were asking for better computers, better gear etc. It's a fine line that's fair. And I support IP holder's rights to defend their IP, but GW had options here that were better.

Of the routes GW could have gone, I'm bummed out this is the one they took. I said this earlier, but I really hope everything comes out awesome and these creators end up well treated and well compensated. But we're talking about a company with a BAD track record in this area and my hopes are not high.

But, doesn't GW have their production and distribution system now? It would have been in the development and implementation stages when these decisions were made, so I don't understand why in your first case it would have made sense for GW to do otherwise.

As far as "Ultramarine" goes, I agree it was a bad movie, but I don't know that the studio that developed it gets to walk away from that one free from any responsibility. The animation was very poor, to say the least. I don't know if that's really an applicable example, other than to say "this movie sucked". It did suck, but there is so much difference between then and now that I honestly struggle to see relevance vs. primacy.

Also, someone in this thread I believe mentioned that the Astartes creator was bringing in 20,000 a month on Patreon. Knowing this now (if that's true, I have no way of knowing) I really have little blame for GW for wanting to either recruit or stop it. Also, I thought GW noted that the same creator would be working on Astartes II in-house with their production team. I'm not sure what that means in the technical sense, you clearly understand much more of it than I ever will, but it sounds like he is getting help.

I get where you are coming from, and I appreciate you taking the time to help me see your point of view. I think for GW the benefits of this foray into media is likely more beneficial than just the low margin return on the film product itself, and links specifically to their overall business plan to grow their model line sales, and hopefully, this will work. I also want to see the people who develop this material be well rewarded and successful. If they are successful, it means I get great content, and GW makes more money. that feels like a win, win, win to me.

But, doesn't GW have their production and distribution system now? It would have been in the development and implementation stages when these decisions were made, so I don't understand why in your first case it would have made sense for GW to do otherwise.

Nope. They do NOT have the production/distribution yet. They have a theory. An idea. A plan. A thing they THINK will work. They do not have a solid, proven, established pipeline. With any luck, next year at this time, maybe they will be able to say that. They currently cannot. They have nothing. To further illustrate my point, let me ask you a question. When was the last time you heard anything at all about Eisenhorn? A show that was announced mid-2019 ....

As far as "Ultramarine" goes, I agree it was a bad movie, but I don't know that the studio that developed it gets to walk away from that one free from any responsibility. The animation was very poor, to say the least. I don't know if that's really an applicable example, other than to say "this movie sucked". It did suck, but there is so much difference between then and now that I honestly struggle to see relevance vs. primacy.

Right, so, this is the difference between understanding how things like this happen and not. There's a process to these things. A flow. A sequence of events that must happen IN SEQUENCE in order for the film to be successful. Admittedly now, it's slightly LESS critical than it used to be, but with 3D back then, and knowing the tools the studio who made it had access to, and how many milestones GW pushed due to demanding significant changes means, every time you do that up front, something must give on the back-end if you are to still meet your deadline (a thing which the studio was on the hook for). So you see, you get so far down the line, and a major request is made. You feel like you have to honor it, and it's not a deal breaker. This sets you back a bit, but with some over time and extra hard work you can overcome it. Plus, what are the odds this (somewhat entitled) client, who has no experience what-so-ever in this area are going to have ANOTHER major change at an inconvenient time.

2 weeks later, now that your team has worked 200 hours in two weeks - Your producer walks into a production meeting 10 minutes late and drenched in sweat. He stammers a bit. Yeah. It's happened again. The client called. There's another major change. Is there a change order clause in the contract? That would mean you don't HAVE to do it and it won't cause any issues as you're legally in the clear ... Oh. No there isn't because you're a smaller studio and this was a big break for you and making the client sign something with a change order clause made you afraid they wouldn't sign with you.

Ok. Well ... you still have textures in the pipeline. you can save on render time if you down-res some textures. It will cost some additional time for your people to go back and work on that, but your animators can keep working ahead on the scenes that haven't changed. You can reimport later and have an intern send the newly redone scenes to the render farm. No sweat.

Ok. That was scary, but it could have been worse. This is direct to DVD anyway. It's fine. Few people will notice the texture issue anyw.... what? There's another demand? You only have picture-lock on 20% of the film. You were to be at 80% at this point in time .... Ok. Well, you HAVE to get this out. So, more OT, and maybe get some contractors in as well to help out. They weren't budgeted for as this wasn't exactly high-budget anyway, but this is no longer about turning a profit. So now, how do you make up even more ground? You're going to have to pull back on lighting and atmospherics. It won't look as nice, but maybe now the textures you had to down-res won't stand out quite as badly so, silver lining? But, sadly, that 20% you had picture-lock on? That's gotta get binned now. It won't match the rest of the film. You'll have to go back, remove the extra lighting and atmospherics, and get some of the contractors to redo the animation to match what's now being done in terms of the more simplistic animation you're doing in the rest of the film in order to just deliver.

Ok! You're almost there! Picture lock on 90%, a week to g....what? They've added a character?

And on and on it goes. Yes, the studio does indeed need to own it's part ....

Also, someone in this thread I believe mentioned that the Astartes creator was bringing in 20,000 a month on Patreon. Knowing this now (if that's true, I have no way of knowing) I really have little blame for GW for wanting to either recruit or stop it. Also, I thought GW noted that the same creator would be working on Astartes II in-house with their production team. I'm not sure what that means in the technical sense, you clearly understand much more of it than I ever will, but it sounds like he is getting help.

My HOPE is that "in-house with our production team" means they actually got a legitimate, real, honest-to-goodness production team. Knowing how expensive that is. Knowing WHY they strong-armed these creators into working for them (it's in my last post but TL;DR they were CHEAP), I have a doubt or two. I don't really begrudge GW protecting the IP. Not at all. I worry at the way they did it. Smacks of old GW trying to wear "Good GW's" face like a skin-suit.

I get where you are coming from, and I appreciate you taking the time to help me see your point of view. I think for GW the benefits of this foray into media is likely more beneficial than just the low margin return on the film product itself, and links specifically to their overall business plan to grow their model line sales, and hopefully, this will work. I also want to see the people who develop this material be well rewarded and successful. If they are successful, it means I get great content, and GW makes more money. that feels like a win, win, win to me.

I really just wish they had approached these folks like creative partners. GW has made massive positive strides in recent years in community engagement. MASSIVE. They've done some sincerely brilliant things. But they've also done some things that occasionally show their hand. I would probably even feel better if they had the proven pipeline with a solid distribution model with predictable numbers, THEN came to these creators and did what they did. BUT, as it stands, these creators are essentially building it for them. Like I've said a few times, I support an IP holder's right to enforce their IP. This is absolutely necessary. In fact, you'd be shocked at how significant that right actually is. BUT - the other side of that coin is that the fastest way to throttle your own IP is to wield it like a weapon. IDK, I just wish they had done it a little differently.