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They did a whooooooole article on it. When the scoring modifier was introduced in the rulebook? They had to frigging answer questions from people trying to claim that if you did "Parade Ready"(which is literally just picking out details a bit more!), you wouldn't get the +10 points to your VP total.
you calling it a lie doesn't make it a lie.
nice try though. if you're scraching at this over a sarcastic comment you might as well just log off now.
And HERE is where the same argument was presented before, and not as a 'sarcastic comment'.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
They did a whooooooole article on it. When the scoring modifier was introduced in the rulebook? They had to frigging answer questions from people trying to claim that if you did "Parade Ready"(which is literally just picking out details a bit more!), you wouldn't get the +10 points to your VP total.
you calling it a lie doesn't make it a lie.
nice try though. if you're scraching at this over a sarcastic comment you might as well just log off now.
And HERE is where the same argument was presented before, and not as a 'sarcastic comment'.
Immaterial. My comment about an arbitrary and unnecessary painting standard still stands.
Racerguy180 wrote: Well that is the goal of any product based sales enterprise
Doesn't mean it's good to enshrine it in the rules.
Easy fix, DONT PLAY MATCHED PLAY RULES....
If you're that against it join us over here where we don't care.
Easier said then done.
And I'm not sure you're the kind of person I want to play. I mean, will I have trouble if I do something else that doesn't meet your standard, like use home made fluff for my rules legal army?
The irony in this thread is delicious, casual players who don't follow the rules are arguing for the rules, and competitive players who follow the rules are arguing to ignore the rules.
Racerguy180 wrote: Well that is the goal of any product based sales enterprise
Doesn't mean it's good to enshrine it in the rules.
Easy fix, DONT PLAY MATCHED PLAY RULES....
If you're that against it join us over here where we don't care.
Easier said then done.
And I'm not sure you're the kind of person I want to play. I mean, will I have trouble if I do something else that doesn't meet your standard, like use home made fluff for my rules legal army?
I'm not quite sure what you mean?
Pretty confident we can have a 5min conversation before we play to establish what's up. I have yet to turn down a game, problem solved.
Racerguy180 wrote: Well that is the goal of any product based sales enterprise
Doesn't mean it's good to enshrine it in the rules.
Easy fix, DONT PLAY MATCHED PLAY RULES....
If you're that against it join us over here where we don't care.
Easier said then done.
And I'm not sure you're the kind of person I want to play. I mean, will I have trouble if I do something else that doesn't meet your standard, like use home made fluff for my rules legal army?
I'm not quite sure what you mean?
Pretty confident we can have a 5min conversation before we play to establish what's up. I have yet to turn down a game, problem solved.
Ok.
The discussion is about the trash rule existing and the toxic players who push for it.
Where have I pushed for it? I straight up said it's a stupid rule.
If it's in a ruleset and you don't like it, it's pretty easy to not use it. But if you want to Matched Play, it's a part of every tournament I've heard of even before 9th. So now that it's a GW rule FOR MATCHED PLAY, if you want to play MATCHED PLAY(i.e. tournament style) gotta do it.
Narrative or any other form of the game doesn't have this requirement.
This thread further illustrates playing with like-minded people makes these type of rules a moot point.
If you really really need to have those 10 points, or getting worked up over how someone else enjoys 40k, maybe you should take a break for a Lil while and reevaluate.
I hate playing with unpainted stuff myself, but have zero issue playing with someone who hasn't. Actually more than half my games are against unpainted/just primed minis, and you know how many times this rule has come up? I'll give you a hint, it begins with Z and ends with ERO.
Anyone who wants to judge someone else's enjoyment of the game based upon their own is a fool.
It's hard to take someone too seriously when they enter a thread and immediately start throwing around words like "abortion" and "trash," only to then, apparently completely without irony, start talking about "toxic players."
Those sorts of emotive terms really don't further the discussion.
Racerguy180 wrote: Where have I pushed for it? I straight up said it's a stupid rule.
If it's in a ruleset and you don't like it, it's pretty easy to not use it. But if you want to Matched Play, it's a part of every tournament I've heard of even before 9th. So now that it's a GW rule FOR MATCHED PLAY, if you want to play MATCHED PLAY(i.e. tournament style) gotta do it.
Narrative or any other form of the game doesn't have this requirement.
This thread further illustrates playing with like-minded people makes these type of rules a moot point.
If you really really need to have those 10 points, or getting worked up over how someone else enjoys 40k, maybe you should take a break for a Lil while and reevaluate.
I hate playing with unpainted stuff myself, but have zero issue playing with someone who hasn't. Actually more than half my games are against unpainted/just primed minis, and you know how many times this rule has come up? I'll give you a hint, it begins with Z and ends with ERO.
Anyone who wants to judge someone else's enjoyment of the game based upon their own is a fool.
Most casual players still used matched rules, or did. That might be changing now.
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yukishiro1 wrote: It's hard to take someone too seriously when they enter a thread and immediately start throwing around words like "abortion" and "trash," only to then, apparently completely without irony, start talking about "toxic players."
Those sorts of emotive terms really don't further the discussion.
Yeah, and it's hard to take people seriously when they don't realize that issues under discussion are actual issues.
That sort of blindness doesn't really further the discussion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/20 01:06:06
Even if that were true, calling them names and talking about "abortions" is unlikely to help them see the error of their ways. But I won't belabor the point, if you don't want to take my advice you certainly don't have to.
P.s. apologies to all the people who have replied with "this again". I did run a search within the "40k You Make Da Rules" section where this thread was originally posted for 'Painted Bonus' and it returned no results.
Hey man, as a pretty common "this again " poster in this thread, I just wanna say, this isn't your fault. The last few threads on this topic are pretty well-buried, and locked, and you are new. It's totally not a point against you, and I really do think that there is potential in the topic for an actual constructive bit of dialogue. There could actually be meaningful discussion here about inclusion, sportsmanship, recognition of what we as individuals want from our gaming experiences, and the nuances of sharing those experiences as well as possible, while also accommodating fellow hobbyists who maybe have some slightly different feelings from our own here, and how to make our local gaming scenes or clubs, and the wider warhammer/wargaming communities a much healthier, friendlier macrocosm, despite our personal differences, and it's sad that that almost always gets buried by actually rather nasty bickering very quickly. Maybe one day...
The real oh god not this gak again bit is that the same posters from the last few threads are unburying the hatchet for an excuse to get at the same people from the last time we danced this sorry dance, who in turn are trotting out the same tired, lukewarm, gak takes.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/20 01:39:26
Racerguy180 wrote: Where have I pushed for it? I straight up said it's a stupid rule.
If it's in a ruleset and you don't like it, it's pretty easy to not use it. But if you want to Matched Play, it's a part of every tournament I've heard of even before 9th. So now that it's a GW rule FOR MATCHED PLAY, if you want to play MATCHED PLAY(i.e. tournament style) gotta do it.
Narrative or any other form of the game doesn't have this requirement.
This thread further illustrates playing with like-minded people makes these type of rules a moot point.
If you really really need to have those 10 points, or getting worked up over how someone else enjoys 40k, maybe you should take a break for a Lil while and reevaluate.
I hate playing with unpainted stuff myself, but have zero issue playing with someone who hasn't. Actually more than half my games are against unpainted/just primed minis, and you know how many times this rule has come up? I'll give you a hint, it begins with Z and ends with ERO.
Anyone who wants to judge someone else's enjoyment of the game based upon their own is a fool.
I have gotten a bit lost on this discussion. Can the people against this rule articulate exactly why it is bad?
To clarify certain things beforehand:
-Obviously at a tourney whatever they say goes, and major tourneys already require paint anyways.
-People who have difficulty due to a disability are both a tiny fraction and would easily be able to get it house ruled out (save perhaps against TFG but then the experience is already ruined).
-This is casual play, there is no material benefit to victory or consequence to loss.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I have gotten a bit lost on this discussion. Can the people against this rule articulate exactly why it is bad?
To clarify certain things beforehand:
-Obviously at a tourney whatever they say goes, and major tourneys already require paint anyways.
-People who have difficulty due to a disability are both a tiny fraction and would easily be able to get it house ruled out (save perhaps against TFG but then the experience is already ruined).
-This is casual play, there is no material benefit to victory or consequence to loss.
Because even though wins/losses don't mean anything in the overall, and the end goal is fun, we still (generally) play to win. And winning, or losing, based upon something not at all related to actual game play is annoying. Maybe even offensive. As such it interferes with the fun.
It's also a barrier to getting others involved. That's often a steep enough hill as is.....
So keep this PoS rule in the tourney environment, and nowhere near casual.
Getting painted stuff on the table should be encouraged & applauded. It should not be a another path to victory/defeat.
Imagine if there was a 10VP bonus to the person who is considered more friendly, in a setting where you play at stores in another town or at an event in another city.
I am sure it wouldn't be a problem either, as people are suppose to be friendly in general right.
-This is casual play, there is no material benefit to victory or consequence to loss.
Imagine you started playing, you play your first few games and you lose them. You try to get better, and maybe you do maybe you don't. All the time you are investing your money and time in to the army. At some point you still keep losing, but you notice that the loses often come at a 15-20pts margin of points. 10 of which are paint points. Lose enough of times, and you will soon discover that playing the game stops being very fun. There is a reason why parents let their kids win or draw while doing sports, because if you got destroyed by an adult male 100% of time, at some point you just wouldn't want to play the game at all. Same with sports at school, if your team is always the last one in regionals, has been last for decades and nothing seems to be changing it, you kind of don't want to put 100% effort in to training and playing, when the end result is a lost game anyway.
Table top games are the same. But they come with a bonus of rules changes, some armies being more and some being less fun to play because of imbalances, which in sports is probably comperable to sudden injury. Having a good and fun army to play with, may entice someone to paint it. If it is a bad and unfun army to play with, why would anyone want to invest even more time and money in to painting it? specially if they consider painting a chore and not something they really like to do.
The view point seems to be from the perspective of people who like to paint, to whom the question why not paint seems to be a strange one, because they would paint the models, even if they were not playing. The perspective of someone who wants to play the game, but isn't much interested in painting is different. And they can even be competent at painting, but it changes little in the fact that , if they don't play they are not going to paint stuff just to paint .
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Racerguy180 798409 11128411 wrote:
Easy fix, DONT PLAY MATCHED PLAY RULES....
If you're that against it join us over here where we don't care.
considering it is the majority of games played, you may as well be telling people to not play the game if they don't like to requierment of a fully painted and based army.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/20 08:16:47
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Karol wrote: Imagine if there was a 10VP bonus to the person who is considered more friendly, in a setting where you play at stores in another town or at an event in another city.
I am sure it wouldn't be a problem either, as people are suppose to be friendly in general right.
-This is casual play, there is no material benefit to victory or consequence to loss.
Imagine you started playing, you play your first few games and you lose them. You try to get better, and maybe you do maybe you don't. All the time you are investing your money and time in to the army. At some point you still keep losing, but you notice that the loses often come at a 15-20pts margin of points. 10 of which are paint points. Lose enough of times, and you will soon discover that playing the game stops being very fun. There is a reason why parents let their kids win or draw while doing sports, because if you got destroyed by an adult male 100% of time, at some point you just wouldn't want to play the game at all. Same with sports at school, if your team is always the last one in regionals, has been last for decades and nothing seems to be changing it, you kind of don't want to put 100% effort in to training and playing, when the end result is a lost game anyway.
Table top games are the same. But they come with a bonus of rules changes, some armies being more and some being less fun to play because of imbalances, which in sports is probably comperable to sudden injury. Having a good and fun army to play with, may entice someone to paint it. If it is a bad and unfun army to play with, why would anyone want to invest even more time and money in to painting it? specially if they consider painting a chore and not something they really like to do.
The view point seems to be from the perspective of people who like to paint, to whom the question why not paint seems to be a strange one, because they would paint the models, even if they were not playing. The perspective of someone who wants to play the game, but isn't much interested in painting is different. And they can even be competent at painting, but it changes little in the fact that , if they don't play they are not going to paint stuff just to paint .
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Racerguy180 798409 11128411 wrote:
Easy fix, DONT PLAY MATCHED PLAY RULES....
If you're that against it join us over here where we don't care.
considering it is the majority of games played, you may as well be telling people to not play the game if they don't like to requierment of a fully painted and based army.
Imagine not being able to keep up with all the new codex releases and the huge amount of different books with special rules. That will be a much rougher handicap than being 10 points behind from unpainted models.
Karol wrote: Imagine you started playing, you play your first few games and you lose them. You try to get better, and maybe you do maybe you don't. All the time you are investing your money and time in to the army. At some point you still keep losing, but you notice that the loses often come at a 15-20pts margin of points. 10 of which are paint points. Lose enough of times, and you will soon discover that playing the game stops being very fun.
Wait, what sort of hypothetical player are we talking about? It seems like a brand new player who plays only pickup games and doesn't have or make friends that are interested in the game. I would suspect that someone like that would eventually lose interest regardless. If they integrated themselves into a friendly community then people would help them in ways to keep them engaged. If you can't find a friendly community then you are unlikely to stick around regardless of if you are winning games or not.
I agree that the rule is pretty pointless and, as many have said, tournaments have their own stipulations for such things, and outside of competition would you really want to play with someone who would insist on enforcing it. That said, if you are reliant on pick-up games, and you havent painted your army, you may struggle to find opponents irrespective of the rule.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/20 16:28:41
Honest question?
What stops the local community from just, i dunno, help out?
Like someone can't really build the models because of chitters, i like building, i happen to love it, let me keep some bits that are left over and i will build you your army no strings attached.
Someone surely will love to paint, why not hand it to them and give them instructions for a sheme?
Assuming you go to a FLG with a decent to great community preferable, why not?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/20 11:41:16
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I think there is a lot of hyperbole in the thread to support one's opinion for the sake of arguement/debate.
I'm yet to see this topic be an issue in the past year. I've attended several one and two day events, play weekly as well as play in a local league. Tourneys are the only venue I experienced that specify whether painted/not painted is required and whether the 10 points for painting will be in effect or not; everyone is aware prior to registering for the event.
If folks are really experiencing some of the issues posted, recommend they find other like minded players to spend their time with.
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
Not Online!!! wrote: Honest question?
What stops the local community from just, i dunno, help out?
Like someone can't really build the models because of chitters, i like building, i happen to love it, let me keep some bits that are left over and i will build you your army no strings attached.
Someone surely will love to paint, why not hand it to them and give them instructions for a sheme?
Assuming you go to a FLG with a decent to great community preferable, why not?
Why would someone who is in their mid 20s or early 30s invest in to the army of some teen, who has high chance of not playing in 2 years time? Specially when their armies are painted and there is enough of them to play against each other. And the only people liking to paint I have seen are those that paint comissions, and they do it all the time. You can of course have them paint your stuff. At the same rates as people that pay comissions do, minus the postal charge. But it still comes out at crazy end cost, practicaly can buy half or more of another army, if you do that.
If folks are really experiencing some of the issues posted, recommend they find other like minded players to spend their time with.
And how do you do that when a lot of the stores went bankrupt post covid? But even before that people were lucky, if they had one store in range to go play to. Although I do understand this can be different in places like UK that has more stores, then the number of stores combined from multiple countries around here.
Wait, what sort of hypothetical player are we talking about? It seems like a brand new player who plays only pickup games and doesn't have or make friends that are interested in the game. I would suspect that someone like that would eventually lose interest regardless. If they integrated themselves into a friendly community then people would help them in ways to keep them engaged. If you can't find a friendly community then you are unlikely to stick around regardless of if you are winning games or not.
Yes and that is why most people don't play for longer then one edition. But even if this is true, why should their expirance be made even worse then it already is?
Imagine not being able to keep up with all the new codex releases and the huge amount of different books with special rules. That will be a much rougher handicap than being 10 points behind from unpainted models.
So it is okey to add more, things that will drive away people ?
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Not Online!!! wrote: Honest question?
What stops the local community from just, i dunno, help out?
Like someone can't really build the models because of chitters, i like building, i happen to love it, let me keep some bits that are left over and i will build you your army no strings attached.
Someone surely will love to paint, why not hand it to them and give them instructions for a sheme?
Assuming you go to a FLG with a decent to great community preferable, why not?
Why would someone who is in their mid 20s or early 30s invest in to the army of some teen, who has high chance of not playing in 2 years time? Specially when their armies are painted and there is enough of them to play against each other. And the only people liking to paint I have seen are those that paint comissions, and they do it all the time. You can of course have them paint your stuff. At the same rates as people that pay comissions do, minus the postal charge. But it still comes out at crazy end cost, practicaly can buy half or more of another army, if you do that.
Invest? As in invest time?
Why not? You stated you don't like painting / building all that much, i do , well building anyhow. And in general i feel like armies should be painted, even though i am really laissez-faire with that. But especially they should be built. And if i can / could help someone out and do them favour and get some bits for my bits box out of it?
Sure. I'd do it. And did it. So erm i don't see the problem? Painting i'd not do since i am not comfortable with that but i am sure there are some people out there that hate to build and like to paint especially if you hand them some material?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
If you're paying someone to commission paint your army, you should expect to generally pay about as much if not more than the model cost you.
You're paying for skilled labor that also costs the craftsman in materials that are not the cheapest things in the world.
If you figure it takes a commission painter roughly 1 hour per figure to paint an infantry fig and 3 hours for a vehicle (which is generally my estimate, and I paint fairly quickly) and roughly 2 hours to assemble a box of infantry or a vehicle, then you're going to be paying more than the cost of the kit if you're not forcing the person to work for less than reasonable wage in most places.
Commission building, priming and painting a box of 10 space marine sized models is unlikely to be less than 12 hours of labor plus materials.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
This is a not a me problem. My army is painted, unless I play against some donkey-cave, who claims that a base done in all yellow, red and blue makes the model unpainted somehow.
And again there is a problem of cost here. Maybe when people earn 5-6times as much as here, they have no problems with painting or giving up stuff for free.
Again people look at this from, or at least I think so, a 30+ year olds point of view. Can paint, can order commision. Now go tell someone who has a 20-30$ monthly hobby budget that they are suppose to spend 8$+ per model on comissions. Or teach them how to explain to your parents at 14-15 why you need money to buy 200$ of paints, a compressor and a paint brush, and use it every day for the next few months for your 70-80 model army to be finished, before GW decides to nerf it in to the ground and make you quit the game.
In 8th there were no such rules. People who wanted to paint their armies, could play their armies. If they didn't want to play vs unpainted armies, they could do just that. There was no additional cost or forcing anyone to do stuff, they do not want to do. The 10VP difference is forcing people who don't want to paint to do stuff, they do not want to do. And I think this is not okey or fun.
The same way playing marines in 8th wasn't fun, because you had to start it with buying of the codex IG and 32 IG models.
Commission building, priming and painting a box of 10 space marine sized models is unlikely to be less than 12 hours of labor plus materials.
yes only, as you may notice, the salary in places like Poland is 4-5 times lower then the salary in western countries, but because the market for comissions is international, the cost of a painting of models here is not based around the 1 hour work of people here, I can tell you that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/20 13:36:02
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
" poster in this thread, I just wanna say, this isn't your fault. The last few threads on this topic are pretty well-buried, and locked, and you are new. It's totally not a point against you, and I really do think that there is potential in the topic for an actual constructive bit of dialogue. There could actually be meaningful discussion here about inclusion, sportsmanship, recognition of what we as individuals want from our gaming experiences, and the nuances of sharing those experiences as well as possible, while also accommodating fellow hobbyists who maybe have some slightly different feelings from our own here, and how to make our local gaming scenes or clubs, and the wider warhammer/wargaming communities a much healthier, friendlier macrocosm, despite our personal differences, and it's sad that that almost always gets buried by actually rather nasty bickering very quickly. Maybe one day...
60PL 
12PL 
