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And my point is that neither the new smoke (GK still has the old one) nor the ability to fire your guns a full capacity really change anything about why the LR is bad. Power of the machine spirit also is a horrible stratagem, do you seriously consider wasting 2 CP to gain 1 or 2 BS? I'm not to sure what GK can do, but I'd be surprised if they don't have anything better to do with their CP.

So there are no "immediately obvious advantages", just a smoke sidegrade and a stratagem you won't be using anyways.

It's the same dumb brick with the same dumb problems for the same dumb price tag.

We are getting a new GK codex...so new GK stratagems...

 Jidmah wrote:
I guess my DG landraiders are more fagile than yours. I wonder why no one is playing those totally awesome invincible gunboats then?

And yes, I was obviously exaggerating. However, if you use the LR to transport anything of worth, it tends be prioritized because it is a large chunk of your army. If you don't, you just pay a lot of points for four lascannons and two heavy bolters.

The best I can hope for it to do is to survive turn 1 severely damaged and then unload terminators or marines somewhere midfield.

I think, usually, turn 1 is safe, but then you aren't moving much. The important point is to use the guns against something before it gets popped. It'd be cool if DG could buff it to T9, but alas.

At present I don't have smokescreen and I don't want to spend the spell on it for that. I also can't go top bracket. Getting two to three solid rounds of shooting, delivering something good right where it needs to be, and taking a lot of heat sounds acceptable for 265.

 Xenomancers wrote:
We are getting a new GK codex...so new GK stratagems...

I think Karol was talking about the PDF which is invalidated when the actual codex is released.

 Jidmah wrote:
do you seriously consider wasting 2 CP to gain 1 or 2 BS?

Well only 1 for DG. That's what I'd expect for other books. Not sure what marines got shafted on theirs. Super heavies, I guess?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
do you seriously consider wasting 2 CP to gain 1 or 2 BS?

Well only 1 for DG. That's what I'd expect for other books. Not sure what marines got shafted on theirs. Super heavies, I guess?

Death Guard have access to all of the same Super Heavys as loyalists, minus the Astraeus. But none of them have Machine Spirit, but are the same price, infuriatingly.

 Jidmah wrote:
I guess my DG landraiders are more fagile than yours. I wonder why no one is playing those totally awesome invincible gunboats then?

Sometimes I wonder why I even bother replying to posts on this forum. People don't even bother responding to anything on the actual original subject of what was said and just respond with kind of a weird fantasy version of what you actually secretly MEANT in their mind.

I just described what I use a land raider for in my Deathwatch army. I didn't say it was a "totally awesome invincible gunboat." I said its there to fill a specific role in my army, some downrange firepower turn 1 to take advantage of Devastator doctrine, and as a metal box to keep my one unit of marines that starts on the board without Storm Shield coverage from getting singled out and targeted with my opponent's high AP long range weaponry. Because it has +1T, +1Sv and +25% wounds compared to any other "standard" marine vehicle, it tends to last longer than people expect, and I've seen that translate into an advantage several times, when my opponent flings whatever dedicated AT firepower they've got at it and rather than killing it they only get it down to 1/2 or 2/3 hp, and they try to finish it off or bracket it with some of the anti-elite weapons that would have otherwise gone into my marines.

never said it was amazing, awesome, the best thing ever, SpAm ThIs OnE wEiRd UnIt FoR fReE wInS!!!1 OP, I just said I use it in my army and it tends to do well.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
do you seriously consider wasting 2 CP to gain 1 or 2 BS?

Well only 1 for DG. That's what I'd expect for other books. Not sure what marines got shafted on theirs. Super heavies, I guess?

Death Guard have access to all of the same Super Heavys as loyalists, minus the Astraeus. But none of them have Machine Spirit, but are the same price, infuriatingly.

They do get access to a mark (all choas LR) which can give them additional benifits.

Which Mark can give Chaos Land Raiders additional benefits?
Endless Cacophony, Fury of Khorne, and Grandfather's Blessing target INFANTRY or BIKERS. Tzeentch's Mark Stratagem targets Psykers.

In CSM, I guess a Daemon Prince can allow a Chaos Land Raider to re-roll 1s to hit, but that doesn't work in Death Guard.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I guess my DG landraiders are more fagile than yours. I wonder why no one is playing those totally awesome invincible gunboats then?

Sometimes I wonder why I even bother replying to posts on this forum. People don't even bother responding to anything on the actual original subject of what was said and just respond with kind of a weird fantasy version of what you actually secretly MEANT in their mind.

I just described what I use a land raider for in my Deathwatch army. I didn't say it was a "totally awesome invincible gunboat." I said its there to fill a specific role in my army, some downrange firepower turn 1 to take advantage of Devastator doctrine, and as a metal box to keep my one unit of marines that starts on the board without Storm Shield coverage from getting singled out and targeted with my opponent's high AP long range weaponry. Because it has +1T, +1Sv and +25% wounds compared to any other "standard" marine vehicle, it tends to last longer than people expect, and I've seen that translate into an advantage several times, when my opponent flings whatever dedicated AT firepower they've got at it and rather than killing it they only get it down to 1/2 or 2/3 hp, and they try to finish it off or bracket it with some of the anti-elite weapons that would have otherwise gone into my marines.

never said it was amazing, awesome, the best thing ever, SpAm ThIs OnE wEiRd UnIt FoR fReE wInS!!!1 OP, I just said I use it in my army and it tends to do well.

To be fair, the thread worked the other way around as well.

I have tried to make it work multiple times to either cart deathshroud, blightlords or plague marines to the middle of the board, just because I like the model.

When it still could get 5+ FNP and a 5++ invul save from war of the spider it just barely managed to survive long enough to actually do its job of protecting and transporting the things inside and delivering that stuff into the enemy ranks. Heck even predators could at least somewhat do their job with those buffs.

But sadly, they were taken away and now my opponents actually race to destroy the landraider ASAP if I pack terminators inside because they want me to roll for casualties. So if I'm unlucky I roll a or two and lose two 40-50 points models on top of the almost 300 point tank. It's hard to take out a similar amount of points in DG by shooting anything else, and worst case I went second and I haven't even gotten any extra movement for my troubles. A unit disembarking on their own free will from the LR turn 2 is the best I could hope for and have yet for it to ever see it turn 3.
Smokes or miasma have never really mattered, as it just gives a free pass to all my opponent's heavy weapons to move and shoot or line up shots through dense terrain, and your opponent can just roll in a way that -1 to hit does not affect him or buff +1 to hit or ignore modifiers. And let's not talk about facing armies like harlequins or daemons.
I guess shooting at full power is situationally good, but it has never come up for me. Either the LR was not yet wounded, had already turned into a crater or there were simply better stratagems to spend my points on - especially the unit that had just disembarked from it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
do you seriously consider wasting 2 CP to gain 1 or 2 BS?

Well only 1 for DG. That's what I'd expect for other books. Not sure what marines got shafted on theirs. Super heavies, I guess?

Death Guard have access to all of the same Super Heavys as loyalists, minus the Astraeus. But none of them have Machine Spirit, but are the same price, infuriatingly.

DG FW models also don't have contagions while loyalists have doctrines.

Rihgu wrote:
Which Mark can give Chaos Land Raiders additional benefits?
Endless Cacophony, Fury of Khorne, and Grandfather's Blessing target INFANTRY or BIKERS. Tzeentch's Mark Stratagem targets Psykers.

In CSM, I guess a Daemon Prince can allow a Chaos Land Raider to re-roll 1s to hit, but that doesn't work in Death Guard.

I think it also unlocks a few psychic abilities. Could be wrong though.

I stated this in the CSM tactics thread, but I guess I will put it here to: LR really needs either T9 and/or a rule to allow disembark after moving. Until then it will just be a fun-sie vehicle for casual play, even if they dropped it another 20-50 points, especially in a DE dark lance meta.

The only semi-credible use I have had for it (other than more LC, although I prefer Hellbrutes for that) is putting a cheap and flimsy close combat unit in it and drive up the field (like Tgors or cheap CSM etc.) This way the flimsy CC unit can actually get somewhere where it might be useful, you are putting the transport capacity to use, but there isn't like 25% of your army in one target. That has worked for me a few times, but you are not winning a tournament with that strategy.

 xeen wrote:
I stated this in the CSM tactics thread, but I guess I will put it here to: LR really needs either T9 and/or a rule to allow disembark after moving. Until then it will just be a fun-sie vehicle for casual play, even if they dropped it another 20-50 points, especially in a DE dark lance meta.

The only semi-credible use I have had for it (other than more LC, although I prefer Hellbrutes for that) is putting a cheap and flimsy close combat unit in it and drive up the field (like Tgors or cheap CSM etc.) This way the flimsy CC unit can actually get somewhere where it might be useful, you are putting the transport capacity to use, but there isn't like 25% of your army in one target. That has worked for me a few times, but you are not winning a tournament with that strategy.

Rules don't matter as much as points. A 2200 pt model wins no tournaments even if it has an ability that gives you 100 VP. 150 pt Land Raiders would be amazing. Rules should only be changed for narrative or gameplay reasons (FNP on multi-wound multi-model units takes too long to resolve).

 xeen wrote:
I stated this in the CSM tactics thread, but I guess I will put it here to: LR really needs either T9 and/or a rule to allow disembark after moving. Until then it will just be a fun-sie vehicle for casual play, even if they dropped it another 20-50 points, especially in a DE dark lance meta.

The DE dark lance meta, where competitive DE lists bring nowhere near enough dark lances to kill a land raider turn 1, as opposed to any standard-statline marine vehicle where they bring just enough?

Points is the issue.

Competively you have to make the LR less than 250 points for it to be viable. Repuslors executioners need to be in the same area. Gladiator tanks need to drop by about the same amount. Doubt CA will even come close.

They did drop the storm speeders a respectable 25 points. If gladiators got the same % drop I think both of these units will be playable in certain builds.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Points is the issue.

Competively you have to make the LR less than 250 points for it to be viable. Repuslors executioners need to be in the same area. Gladiator tanks need to drop by about the same amount. Doubt CA will even come close.

They did drop the storm speeders a respectable 25 points. If gladiators got the same % drop I think both of these units will be playable in certain builds.

yeah, its pretty clear that they want the focus of space marines to be 'the marines themselves' and they want to try and move away from the eternal parking lots of 7th and earlier editions, but they massively overshot and instead of tanks being the intended 'sometimes food' it's just easier to leave them out entirely and not offer your opponent a good target for D6 damage guns.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Points is the issue.

Competively you have to make the LR less than 250 points for it to be viable. Repuslors executioners need to be in the same area. Gladiator tanks need to drop by about the same amount. Doubt CA will even come close.

They did drop the storm speeders a respectable 25 points. If gladiators got the same % drop I think both of these units will be playable in certain builds.

yeah, its pretty clear that they want the focus of space marines to be 'the marines themselves' and they want to try and move away from the eternal parking lots of 7th and earlier editions, but they massively overshot and instead of tanks being the intended 'sometimes food' it's just easier to leave them out entirely and not offer your opponent a good target for D6 damage guns.

Aye - exactly.

While dreads are core and competitive with space marine infantry - including them just gives your opponents targets. In order to introduce a new profile which is vulnerable to anti tank weapons those profiles need to do something exceptional. The only units that really comes close to that are the contemptor dread and redemptor dread.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Points is the issue.

Competively you have to make the LR less than 250 points for it to be viable. Repuslors executioners need to be in the same area. Gladiator tanks need to drop by about the same amount. Doubt CA will even come close.

They did drop the storm speeders a respectable 25 points. If gladiators got the same % drop I think both of these units will be playable in certain builds.

yeah, its pretty clear that they want the focus of space marines to be 'the marines themselves' and they want to try and move away from the eternal parking lots of 7th and earlier editions, but they massively overshot and instead of tanks being the intended 'sometimes food' it's just easier to leave them out entirely and not offer your opponent a good target for D6 damage guns.

Aye - exactly.

While dreads are core and competitive with space marine infantry - including them just gives your opponents targets. In order to introduce a new profile which is vulnerable to anti tank weapons those profiles need to do something exceptional. The only units that really comes close to that are the contemptor dread and redemptor dread.

The purpose of dreadnoughts makes absolute sense though - them being -1D makes D2 weaponry the complete opposite thing you want to take against them. The addition of that defense to all dreadnoughts is a fantastic inoculation of the marine lineup to people spamming the traditional Anti-MEQ weapons after bringing all firstborn marines up to the functional W2 statline (its been discussed to death in the past how loading so much gak into marines with a W1 statline really didnt work and made them feel super fragile, so I wont get into it here)

Sure, you've always got the chance in 40k to just skew your list into a single defensive profile, and many many many many competitive lists do that and will always do that because it's so often something that has no trade-offs. You just get to invalidate a whole class of opposing weaponry and you lose.....sometimes the ability to hold objectives well? Not if you're skewing into infantry profiles thugh. Sometimes the chance to target certain unit types effectively? not if you've got 57 choices of units within that defensive profile though. My deathwatch Kill Teams can ALL have the excellent T4 W2 3+ 4++ statline protecting them, with additional protection from T4 W3 2+ in case I happen to be out of cover and my opponent shoots antichaff guns at me or they spam D2. I can arm my marines with almost any conceivable combination of weapons, the only reason I take a tank at all is because I've got a squad that I don't want to have out in the open at the beginning of the game, and because I don't have every possible configuration of weapons on every model.

Points have leaked and the "Points Update" is so bad it makes me want to insult the actual writers of this BS.

Terrible product and another slap in the face of the consumers

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Points have leaked and the "Points Update" is so bad it makes me want to insult the actual writers of this BS.

Terrible product and another slap in the face of the consumers

Reads like "GW didn't do it exactly as I wanted it so everything is horrible".

Also I've only seen incredibly small snips on 4chan so to claim you've gone through the whole thing seems off.

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Points have leaked and the "Points Update" is so bad it makes me want to insult the actual writers of this BS.

Terrible product and another slap in the face of the consumers

The points update probably isn't going to make everyone happy, but either way, I think the primary "product" is actually the mission pack, and it is the part of the package that will determine whether or not the product has value.

I think for most people, the thing that makes or breaks the deal is the changes they make to secondaries. I don't really play matched, and I don't really pay too much attention to points, but from what I've read here and elsewhere, changing the secondaries is the thing that will have the greatest impact on the game.

Xenomancers wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
Which Mark can give Chaos Land Raiders additional benefits?
Endless Cacophony, Fury of Khorne, and Grandfather's Blessing target INFANTRY or BIKERS. Tzeentch's Mark Stratagem targets Psykers.

In CSM, I guess a Daemon Prince can allow a Chaos Land Raider to re-roll 1s to hit, but that doesn't work in Death Guard.

I think it also unlocks a few psychic abilities. Could be wrong though.

Right, bring an appropriately marked Sorcerer and you can give a Nurgle CSM LoW -1 to be hit (redundant on something that has an in-built strategem that does the same thing), or one marked Tzeentch a 5++ (loyalists can do the same thing with Psychic Fortress, except it affects everything within 6 of the psyker instead of just one unit, and isn't locked to a mark), or give one marked Slaanesh a 5+++ (damned good, I won't lie). But you have to pay the points for that Sorcerer in addition to your expensive LoW, and there's absolutely no guarantee that any of that will stick around once the 9th edition CSM codex rolls around. Machine Spirit isn't going anywhere for loyalists.

Jidmah wrote:DG FW models also don't have contagions while loyalists have doctrines.

Didn't know that. Just another kick in the teeth for the Legions.

Xenomancers wrote:Points is the issue.

Competively you have to make the LR less than 250 points for it to be viable. Repuslors executioners need to be in the same area. Gladiator tanks need to drop by about the same amount. Doubt CA will even come close.

They did drop the storm speeders a respectable 25 points. If gladiators got the same % drop I think both of these units will be playable in certain builds.

In addition to those it looks like Necron Doomsday Arks and the Custodes grav tanks are getting buffs. So maybe some overpriced vehicles are getting some attention.

There is another danger to running a Land Raider. If it dies, you better not hope it doesn't explode near any of your army. The LR explosion does d6 MW wound on each unit within 6 inches. You absolutely do NOT want that thing exploding in the middle of your whole army. Would probably lose you the game right there.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
There is another danger to running a Land Raider. If it dies, you better not hope it doesn't explode near any of your army. The LR explosion does d6 MW wound on each unit within 6 inches. You absolutely do NOT want that thing exploding in the middle of your whole army. Would probably lose you the game right there.

And in 9th edition, you can't even use a Command Reroll to prevent it.

Rihgu 798530 11134798 wrote:

Nobody is claiming them to be invincible gunboats. In fact, they're only claiming that the stratagem access newer books (DG, SM) have helps support them in their intended roles. Because you initially claimed that they did not.

This is all because Karol pointed out that Codex: Space Marine Land raiders and Codex: Grey Knight Land Raiders are going to cost the same despite the Space Marine one having immediately obvious advantages, so even if being priced at 265 points somehow made them viable or even just reasonable to take rather than a points sink, it still wouldn't be viable or reasonable for GK as they'd be paying the same points for a less effective model.

This. I use GK dreadnoughts. But ours didn't get the -1D thing for example. So if suddenly GW decided that , like they did in the past with stuff like transport, that marine stuff is too OP, and that the fix to it is suppose to be a points hike, I wouldn't be very happy about it. On the other side of things, I would rather get the -1D rule on the dreads, then GW deciding that they should cost 5pts less, if GW decided that dreads cost too much.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Points is the issue.

Competively you have to make the LR less than 250 points for it to be viable. Repuslors executioners need to be in the same area. Gladiator tanks need to drop by about the same amount. Doubt CA will even come close.

They did drop the storm speeders a respectable 25 points. If gladiators got the same % drop I think both of these units will be playable in certain builds.

I disagree, 270-290ish points is appropriate for a T8 16W model with transport capacity and decent firepower. I think it simply should be more durable: invuln, abilities to reduce damage and/or enemy AP, nerfs to some OP anti tank units/combos, etc... and ruleswise marine infantries should be in the need of a ride somehow. Maybe eliminating deep strike/ouflank from the game and reducing infantries M values significantly. That's how a LR could be interesting.

Making everything cheaper is a terrible game deisgn, one of the best things about 9th was the 10%ish points hike. My feeling is the current standard game format and points costs already allow and push for too many models on the board, even for elite oriented armies, and I don't really like that.

 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Points is the issue.

Competively you have to make the LR less than 250 points for it to be viable. Repuslors executioners need to be in the same area. Gladiator tanks need to drop by about the same amount. Doubt CA will even come close.

They did drop the storm speeders a respectable 25 points. If gladiators got the same % drop I think both of these units will be playable in certain builds.

I disagree, 270-290ish points is appropriate for a T8 16W model with transport capacity and decent firepower. I think it simply should be more durable: invuln, abilities to reduce damage and/or enemy AP, nerfs to some OP anti tank units/combos, etc... and ruleswise marine infantries should be in the need of a ride somehow. Maybe eliminating deep strike/ouflank from the game and reducing infantries M values significantly. That's how a LR could be interesting.

Making everything cheaper is a terrible game deisgn, one of the best things about 9th was the 10%ish points hike. My feeling is the current standard game format and points costs already allow and push for too many models on the board, even for elite oriented armies, and I don't really like that.

The problem is that making things cheaper is the only option in the current GW paradigm. The only other option is for GW to release an overtly expensive campaign sourcebook with a new datasheet because they refuse to change their process.

At least in AoS the warscrolls are free on the GW store so if they update in a campaign sourcebook you can most often skip the book and just use the warscroll off their website.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
There is another danger to running a Land Raider. If it dies, you better not hope it doesn't explode near any of your army. The LR explosion does d6 MW wound on each unit within 6 inches. You absolutely do NOT want that thing exploding in the middle of your whole army. Would probably lose you the game right there.

And in 9th edition, you can't even use a Command Reroll to prevent it.

A LR and a suitable squad can cover a flank on their own usually.

Yup, I have been forwarded two pictures of the secondaries missions pages in french. Are you interested if I translate this back in english ?

Yes, that would be nice