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2021/06/04 19:44:01
Subject: 7th vs 9th Edition, Core rules and Bloat.
Sim-Life wrote: Hyperbole is always a good way to make yourself look super clever.
Maybe, but I think you are giving Warmahordes way too much credit.
Its much the same thing. You have to learn the combos. Then you learn how they interact. Then you are back to just letting dice do the talking.
Now admittedly the perk of Warmahordes is that a "gotcha" (i.e. X+Y=Z) could result in the game being over in under 20 minutes - in which case you can just reset and go again - rather than a game of 40k (especially in 7th!) often being almost certainly over from deployment but still taking 3 hours to play through (because there's always a chance the dice will intervene.)
2021/06/04 19:45:27
Subject: Re:7th vs 9th Edition, Core rules and Bloat.
BlaxicanX wrote: 7th had the worst ruleset in this game's history and trying to use the 7e codices as a scapegoat is laughable because all the BS in those books were only possible due to the core ruleset.
The potency of the psychic powers was awful. The USR system was trash. Vehicle system was clunky, templates were clunky, shooting was way too powerful. Formations were a terrible idea, summoning was a terrible idea. Don't miss it at all.
So you prefer stratagems that let units shoot twice...every army getting formation bonuses for free entirely in the form of "doctrines' / "imperatives" ect?
Absolutely yes, because the rule book strategems are perfectly balanced whereas the egregious ones are codex specific. So instead of having to deal with 80% of the armies in the game abusing invisibility for the entire edition I only have to deal with a specific faction being overbearing, and then it will get nerfed in 6 months anyway.
That is the benefit of decentralizing the rules.
2021/06/04 19:48:57
Subject: Re:7th vs 9th Edition, Core rules and Bloat.
Absolutely yes, because the rule book strategems are perfectly balanced whereas the egregious ones are codex specific. So instead of having to deal with 80% of the armies in the game abusing invisibility for the entire edition I only have to deal with a specific faction being overbearing, and then it will get nerfed in 6 months anyway.
That is the benefit of decentralizing the rules.
Not only that, but now, in 6 months when that problem strat gets addressed, it won't unintentionally nerf 5 other units (who share the same USR) into the ground for no reason.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
2021/06/04 20:30:57
Subject: Re:7th vs 9th Edition, Core rules and Bloat.
#1 the main rules
#2 my codex
#3 my psychic awakening book to even think about being competitive
#4 the current FAQ's
#5 the current chapter approved book
That is bloat off the scales.
I don't see how people can think this is acceptable.
Sim-Life wrote: Hyperbole is always a good way to make yourself look super clever.
Maybe, but I think you are giving Warmahordes way too much credit.
Its much the same thing. You have to learn the combos. Then you learn how they interact. Then you are back to just letting dice do the talking.
Now admittedly the perk of Warmahordes is that a "gotcha" (i.e. X+Y=Z) could result in the game being over in under 20 minutes - in which case you can just reset and go again - rather than a game of 40k (especially in 7th!) often being almost certainly over from deployment but still taking 3 hours to play through (because there's always a chance the dice will intervene.)
Keep in mind I'm directly comparing Warmachine (mostly Mk2) to 40k. The bredth of decision making in WMH is far greater and more interesting. In WMH you have to actually think about movement beyond just "move closer to objective" for example.
2021/06/04 21:09:50
Subject: Re:7th vs 9th Edition, Core rules and Bloat.
#1 the main rules
#2 my codex
#3 my psychic awakening book to even think about being competitive
#4 the current FAQ's
#5 the current chapter approved book
That is bloat off the scales.
I don't see how people can think this is acceptable.
Oh man. I forgot about the data slates! But like I said earlier, you'd also need whatever weekly WD had the rules you needed for whatever else it was you were running. 7th was truly peak bloat.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
2021/06/04 21:15:55
Subject: 7th vs 9th Edition, Core rules and Bloat.
Oh yeah the dataslates. In 7th GW was charging money for little PDF downloads that each contained a few extra formations you could use in your army. DLC.
I think I still have the 3 tyranid ones on my hard drive somewhere.
2021/06/04 21:25:05
Subject: 7th vs 9th Edition, Core rules and Bloat.
Ignoring super doctrine ridiculous nonsense and free stuff, 7th core rules were better and for a minute it seemed that 8th would reawaken 2nd from the ashes of 7th but then... now 9th is built from that nast. Bloat here is putrid rank and begins with restartes rubicon rubbish. 7th was maybe worse at the end but at least something good could have come from it. Shadow war, if that would have been the style of the new boxes and restartes arrived as new weenie models, then they would have had me. After 8th, 9th is simply going farther in the wrong direction. Can’t see that as a good thing. Burn 9th in a dumpster fire and this is the difference, nothing good will be left but dusty air. At least with 7th we’d find a blast and flamer template in the ashes.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/04 21:27:00
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2021/06/04 21:49:53
Subject: 7th vs 9th Edition, Core rules and Bloat.
Ignoring super doctrine ridiculous nonsense and free stuff, 7th core rules were better
Because the 7th core rules were just the 6th edition core rules and a few pages of errata (and the hands-down-worst magic system WFB ever had repackaged as the psychic phase). The problem was the 'everything else' and there was a lot of everything else.
And the basic principle that it was unacceptable to re-sell people the exact same thing a couple years later.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/04 21:52:15
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2021/06/04 22:18:38
Subject: Re:7th vs 9th Edition, Core rules and Bloat.
#1 the main rules
#2 my codex
#3 my psychic awakening book to even think about being competitive
#4 the current FAQ's
#5 the current chapter approved book
That is bloat off the scales.
I don't see how people can think this is acceptable.
I haven't brought my BRB to a game ever, because the CA book has everything I need. My FAQs are a quick print off if there is something I can't put to memory. Since I got a free code I don't even need to bring my codex and I have cards for the strats anyway. So I'd be bringing two books if I had a PA book, but I don't so I bring one.
Sim-Life wrote: Hyperbole is always a good way to make yourself look super clever.
Maybe, but I think you are giving Warmahordes way too much credit.
Its much the same thing. You have to learn the combos. Then you learn how they interact. Then you are back to just letting dice do the talking.
Now admittedly the perk of Warmahordes is that a "gotcha" (i.e. X+Y=Z) could result in the game being over in under 20 minutes - in which case you can just reset and go again - rather than a game of 40k (especially in 7th!) often being almost certainly over from deployment but still taking 3 hours to play through (because there's always a chance the dice will intervene.)
Keep in mind I'm directly comparing Warmachine (mostly Mk2) to 40k. The bredth of decision making in WMH is far greater and more interesting. In WMH you have to actually think about movement beyond just "move closer to objective" for example.
You actually have to think about movement in 40K, too, but people like to pretend that all you do is move towards the objectives.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/04 22:20:49
2021/06/04 22:57:04
Subject: 7th vs 9th Edition, Core rules and Bloat.
I really want a return of universal special rules. The only issue with them was that GW didn't add them to a units data sheet, so you had to keep flipping between rulebook and codex.
Now that we have abilities on every unit datasheet USR's would be fine. Saves from every faction having their own rule for the same thing.
2021/06/04 23:51:11
Subject: 7th vs 9th Edition, Core rules and Bloat.
Every faction having their own rules for the same thing is good because it prevents a domino effect from buffing/nerfing individual units or armies. There are some rules that are completely fine on one unit or army but overpowered or useless on another. The granularity of units having their own rules allows for tweaking at will without effecting others.
It's also why unit types being a core rule was trash. Since "infantry" had to move 6'' you were stuck with units like Eldar and daemonettes moving at the same speed as Ogryn and Necrons.
2021/06/04 23:55:33
Subject: 7th vs 9th Edition, Core rules and Bloat.
BlaxicanX wrote: Every faction having their own rules for the same thing is good because it prevents a domino effect from buffing/nerfing individual units or armies. There are some rules that are completely fine on one unit or army but overpowered or useless on another. The granularity of units having their own rules allows for tweaking at will without effecting others.
It's also why unit types being a core rule was trash. Since "infantry" had to move 6'' you were stuck with units like Eldar and daemonettes moving at the same speed as Ogryn and Necrons.
That's a completely unrelated problem- ditching the Move characteristic. It has nothing to do with unit types or USRs.
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2021/06/05 00:00:13
Subject: 7th vs 9th Edition, Core rules and Bloat.
It's the exact same game mechanic as unit types and USRs. Any argument that applies to rigid BRB-defined movement characteristics is going to logically apply to BRB-defined USRs and unit types as well.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/05 00:02:34
2021/06/05 00:06:43
Subject: Re:7th vs 9th Edition, Core rules and Bloat.
#1 the main rules
#2 my codex
#3 my psychic awakening book to even think about being competitive
#4 the current FAQ's
#5 the current chapter approved book
That is bloat off the scales.
I don't see how people can think this is acceptable.
You misspelled "the GT minibook, the codex, and battlescribe"
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2021/06/05 00:08:08
Subject: Re:7th vs 9th Edition, Core rules and Bloat.
BlaxicanX wrote: It's the exact same game mechanic as unit types and USRs. Any argument that applies to rigid BRB-defined movement characteristics is going to logically apply to BRB-defined USRs and unit types as well.
Only if you're devolving the argument down to 'they're all rules in books,' but that applies to literally everything.
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2021/06/05 00:28:57
Subject: Re:7th vs 9th Edition, Core rules and Bloat.
#1 the main rules
#2 my codex
#3 my psychic awakening book to even think about being competitive
#4 the current FAQ's
#5 the current chapter approved book
That is bloat off the scales.
I don't see how people can think this is acceptable.
You misspelled "the GT minibook, the codex, and battlescribe"
As opposed to just needing Battlescribe to play 7th?
Absolutely yes, because the rule book strategems are perfectly balanced whereas the egregious ones are codex specific. So instead of having to deal with 80% of the armies in the game abusing invisibility for the entire edition I only have to deal with a specific faction being overbearing, and then it will get nerfed in 6 months anyway.
That is the benefit of decentralizing the rules.
Not only that, but now, in 6 months when that problem strat gets addressed, it won't unintentionally nerf 5 other units (who share the same USR) into the ground for no reason.
This is the biggest thing. The fact that no longer if something gets changed in the USR's a bunch of unrelated units to the issue unit gets completely and unintentionally screwed for years on end.
2021/06/05 01:14:38
Subject: Re:7th vs 9th Edition, Core rules and Bloat.
Absolutely yes, because the rule book strategems are perfectly balanced whereas the egregious ones are codex specific. So instead of having to deal with 80% of the armies in the game abusing invisibility for the entire edition I only have to deal with a specific faction being overbearing, and then it will get nerfed in 6 months anyway.
That is the benefit of decentralizing the rules.
Not only that, but now, in 6 months when that problem strat gets addressed, it won't unintentionally nerf 5 other units (who share the same USR) into the ground for no reason.
This is the biggest thing. The fact that no longer if something gets changed in the USR's a bunch of unrelated units to the issue unit gets completely and unintentionally screwed for years on end.
Which isn’t really a issue in a competent rule set.
It’s funny how often 40k is if you go by the lowest bar possible, it’s Ok.
40k just used USRs like they do most other rules in the worst and most bloated way, and I think it’s why so many people always brush it’s difficulty with balance as being such a complex and big game.
When really it’s just bad planing and use of tools that have had the game in bad states constantly over the years.
2021/06/05 02:27:19
Subject: Re:7th vs 9th Edition, Core rules and Bloat.
Ignoring super doctrine ridiculous nonsense and free stuff, 7th core rules were better and for a minute it seemed that 8th would reawaken 2nd from the ashes of 7th but then... now 9th is built from that nast. Bloat here is putrid rank and begins with restartes rubicon rubbish. 7th was maybe worse at the end but at least something good could have come from it. Shadow war, if that would have been the style of the new boxes and restartes arrived as new weenie models, then they would have had me. After 8th, 9th is simply going farther in the wrong direction. Can’t see that as a good thing. Burn 9th in a dumpster fire and this is the difference, nothing good will be left but dusty air. At least with 7th we’d find a blast and flamer template in the ashes.
"Ignoring half the game, the game wasn't so bad!"
The 7th edition core was GARBAGE regardless of what you compare it to. You could compare them to Candyland and they'd still be trash.
7th edition rulebook was 300 pages and 200 of those had to memorized before you could even start to play a game, and another 60 pages of FAQs before you could play the game with only moderately exploitative rules interpretations. It's crazy that people forget that. The core rules of 7th were more bloated than the 9th core rules PLUS the FAQs, plus TWO codexes.
7th edition, from beginning to end, was the second worse ruleset GW ever created. 6th was worse but it was only around for like 6 weeks so it doesn't get as much hate, but there was not a single redeemable aspect of 7th.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/05 02:35:52
2021/06/05 02:41:02
Subject: Re:7th vs 9th Edition, Core rules and Bloat.
As opposed to just needing Battlescribe to play 7th?
You live in a different reality it seems.
I don't remember ever bringing another book besides the BRB and my codex. The only time i remember people bringing in other books was imperial armor, which really doesn't even count.
2021/06/05 02:43:50
Subject: Re:7th vs 9th Edition, Core rules and Bloat.
As opposed to just needing Battlescribe to play 7th?
You live in a different reality it seems.
I don't remember ever bringing another book besides the BRB and my codex. The only time i remember people bringing in other books was imperial armor, which really doesn't even count.
Why does Imperial Armour "not count"?
2021/06/05 02:47:49
Subject: 7th vs 9th Edition, Core rules and Bloat.
Not going to get involved in a rules debate (I'm learning!). But I do have a funny point to make about 7th that should bring some levity. Bit of back ground:
My buddy had Rogue trader and I think we played one small game, but it didn't hook me. Space Hulk rocked my world, and then 2nd let me play "Stealers in 40k! (As in GSC, not nids). Off to the races!
Sisters came out near the end of 2nd, and I wanted them, but didn't have a chance to buy in before 3rd. When it dropped, GSC were gone, which crushed me, but I pivoted to sisters and ended up enjoying that edition too.
And then fourth dropped, and sisters were ignored- I think I was able to play a few games using the Witch Hunter dex, and even into fifth. But sisters kept getting worse, or merely being ignored, and GSC did not return. I think it was 6th ed's WD Sisters dex that killed it for me. Ignored the whole edition- one army I liked had been trashed, the other just vanished.
One day I peaked into a GW and saw a GSC dex; after I picked my jaw up off the floor, I bought the dex on sight- didn't have a BRB, hadn't played since 5th, but damn I wanted to read that dex.
Never did get around to buying in though, because 8th was announce mere months after GSC dropped. But I watch Clestine play a critical role in the Gathering Storm edition transition saga and then boom!
8th dropped everything I needed to buy in; I hated indexes- found them boring and simplistic, flavourless and empty. But I had kept my minis, and I could field them ALL by purchasing a mere 3 indexes. I knew codices were on the way and flavour would return an army at a time, and I was going to get to field GSC and Sisters with excellent models in the same edition! It was almost the only thing that mattered.
I bought into 8th HARD; there was talk of ever edition (a lifelong dream btw- I HATE edition changes in every game I've ever played, from D&D to World of Darkness, but 40k was the wo rst).
When 9th dropped, I was furious, because 8th had been such a special thing for me. I almost made a Youtube protest video of me burning all my books! A few people on the forums managed to mitigate my anger long enough that I decided to follow 9th and see how it was going to play out. I bought the BRB and Crusade got under my skin.
The Space Marine parade almost killed me. In the end, the only to cope was to cobble together the marines from the other halves of all the boxes I had bought to get GSC and make a Death Watch team; to me, they'll always be the Chamber Militant of Ordo Xenos rather than Space Marines, which makes them interesting.
I had started collecting Drukhari at the end of 8th because I'd always wanted to play them, and the capacity to build an army entirely from boxed sets to save PILES of cash was just too much to resist.
And then, once the Space Marine noise died down, they announced that Drukhari were up, and their dex was fabulous! It wasn't the OP nature of it that I found fabulous either- it was the Master Level Hq's, the favoured retinues and Crusade... Damn, the Crusade rules in the book exceeded my expectations so much that I have a hard time putting it into words.
And then they told me sisters were coming! And damn that Crusade preview rocked.
Now I'm convinced that 9th is going to be my ever edition, just like 5th is an ever edition to the Dakkanaughts who put in the work like they need it to work.
Until 8th, there had never in the history of the game been an edition with a dex for every faction I want to play. Drukhari didn't exist in RT and 2nd; GSC were gone by third, and sisters sucked and were ignored to varying degrees from 4th until 7th.
Which means that for me, regardless of rules, there was no way I could ever have liked any edition as much as eighth. If an edition didn't contain a dex for Sisters, GSC and Drukhari, no matter how good the rules were, it could never be as fun for me as 8th was.
Now there is a cautionary tale here; what makes editions great for me is faction parity. Back in the day, whole editions could go buy with entire factions getting NOTHING! Sometimes no models, sometimes no dexes, sometimes neither. Regardless of balance or mechanics, I fail to comprehend how anyone could be nostalgic about that (well, except for space marine players, who have never had to go without anything).
And we aren't through 9th yet; my nightmare is that they return to a system where an edition can pass without all factions getting SOMETHING. It is unlikely, given the financial success of 8th and 9th, but it is possible.
Once I have my 9th GSC, Chaos, Guard and CWE books, if they are of the calibre of seen so far, I will rest easy. I want Emperor's Children; I'd like Traitor Guard; I might buy a small force of GK so I can field all 3 chambers militant. I'll buy any Inquisitor they make. But all those are Nice to Haves, not Need to Haves.
And I would LOVE this to actually be a persistent edition- for me, it will be. If they announce a 10th, I'll just keep playing 9th- I'm buying in enough that I can unplug completely and be content that I have enough to keep me painting and playing for the rest of my life.
Sorry for the off topic stroll down memory lane; having never played seventh, I can't comment on it, but I am eternally grateful it gave me back my GSC.
Now y'all are free to continue barking about the minutiae of which ruleset was better, knowing full well you'll never change anyone's mind nor have yours changed by them, and yet continue to bark just the same.
Only 14 hours and 15 minutes til sisters preorder.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/05 02:50:43
2021/06/05 02:58:28
Subject: Re:7th vs 9th Edition, Core rules and Bloat.
As opposed to just needing Battlescribe to play 7th?
You live in a different reality it seems.
From the one where people needed to memorize 450 pages of rules to play a game rendered unplayable by charts that somehow had Chapter Approved the edition before GW brought the "Chapter Approved" name back and was entirely made up of things that were simultaneously 2++ deathstars and armed only with D-weapons, yes, clearly.
As opposed to just needing Battlescribe to play 7th?
You live in a different reality it seems.
I don't remember ever bringing another book besides the BRB and my codex. The only time i remember people bringing in other books was imperial armor, which really doesn't even count.
Why does Imperial Armour "not count"?
Because imperial armor isn't a requirement to play the game. They were optional rules, for specialist models that in themselves were exorbitantly more expensive than their standard counterparts. If you wanted to play with IA they were mandatory, but were in no way shape or form required to play for any faction. If you wanted to play competitively and engage in the ultra super serious list building waac meta death stars, sure, but most people did not have IA.
Were they apart of the bloat? Yes. Were they as necessary? No.
Psychic awakening is different in my opinion as well, as that was an expansion for a codex. Something that for many is considered necessary, especially if you want to stay competitive with the current 9th edition codices as compared to a languishing 8th edition one.
Imperial armor was kind of outside of all of this except for tournament play.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/05 03:25:12
2021/06/05 04:04:08
Subject: 7th vs 9th Edition, Core rules and Bloat.
BlaxicanX wrote: It's the exact same game mechanic as unit types and USRs. Any argument that applies to rigid BRB-defined movement characteristics is going to logically apply to BRB-defined USRs and unit types as well.
Only if you're devolving the argument down to 'they're all rules in books,' but that applies to literally everything.
They're all rules in the BRB that are designed to be "one-size-fits-all" mechanics for determining how a unit behaves.
Which creates a cascading effect of problems for balancing the game.
If you don't understand what my point is just say so and I can break it down for you. Trying to play the semantics game with me is a losing battle for you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/05 04:04:34
2021/06/05 04:07:59
Subject: Re:7th vs 9th Edition, Core rules and Bloat.
As opposed to just needing Battlescribe to play 7th?
You live in a different reality it seems.
I don't remember ever bringing another book besides the BRB and my codex. The only time i remember people bringing in other books was imperial armor, which really doesn't even count.
Why does Imperial Armour "not count"?
Because imperial armor isn't a requirement to play the game. They were optional rules, for specialist models that in themselves were exorbitantly more expensive than their standard counterparts. If you wanted to play with IA they were mandatory, but were in no way shape or form required to play for any faction. If you wanted to play competitively and engage in the ultra super serious list building waac meta death stars, sure, but most people did not have IA.
Were they apart of the bloat? Yes. Were they as necessary? No.
Psychic awakening is different in my opinion as well, as that was an expansion for a codex. Something that for many is considered necessary, especially if you want to stay competitive with the current 9th edition codices as compared to a languishing 8th edition one.
Imperial armor was kind of outside of all of this except for tournament play.
You do realize that some factions had all of their rules in IA, don't you? The R&H rules in IA13 were the best rules gw wrote since 3.5. And the additional units it gave for CSM were just as important as any PA book, because that was all we got, as we were stuck with the garbage 6th edition codex, except for that short period of time at the end of 7th when we had Traitor Legions. IA13 was the only thing that kept me playing through 7th, because it actually had units I liked, instead of the stuff that the main studio tried to cram down our throats in their formations. The work fw turned out in 6th and 7th was hands down above anything gw proper did. And it had nothing to do with "WAAC tournament play". I never played tournaments and I still.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/05 04:10:43
But like I said earlier, you'd also need whatever weekly 
