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So, I play Slaanesh Daemons and I will say that if you want "narratively intuitive" then the Horus Heresy list is a way better model than the 40k list.

First of all, we'll cover deployment.

Daemons don't deploy. After deployment, they get to place Warp Rifts (essentially the dimensional portals) anywhere on the board (abiding by certain restrictions e.g. distance from enemy / objectives / etc).

Daemons then must come through these Warp Rifts on their own movement phase via a Reserves rule, though the enemy can completely surround one to shut it down so you have to be careful in placing the Warp Rifts.

Lesser Daemons (Daemonettes, Bloodletters, etc) start at T4 base, but there's a fascinating rule to represent how the Daemonic hold on reality works:

In T1, they're T+1, S+1 (so T5)
In T2, they retain those bonuses.
In T3 and 4, they're unmodified.
In T4 and T5, they become T-1, S-1 (so T3)
In T6 and T7, they become T-2, S-2 (so T2, instant death'd by bolters).

Among other rules, this is why I think the 30k army list has a better handle on how Daemons work narratively than the 40k list does (where they're essentially "Tyranids with an invuln save").

I really hope how Daemons work in 40k gets a ground up redo in the new book.

They should be a terrifying nightmare force, that can appear out of nowhere, drive enemy warriors to madness and are nigh unstoppable vs regular weapons.

Although weakness wise they loose their grip on reality without special circumstances.
Something like the old Necron phase out rule.

Instead of being Termagaunts with invulnerable saves.

Beardedragon wrote:
Also why on earth would daemons directly suffer from leadership?

Lets face it, if you guys were daemons that KNEW you wouldnt die even if you were "killed" and would just get send back to the warp to be manifested later, would you be afraid of dying? Would you really look at the guy next to you who "died" and was sent back and be like: oh no i gotta get outta here!

So why is leadership such an issue for daemons?

Demons can't "die" in the mortal sense, but they can be punished for failure by their patron Gods. To the demons, this is often worse. Plus, many of them spend a long time trying to break the barrier and gain access to the mortal world. You may not be afraid of dying, but if you're a lesser demon who just spent 500 years trying to get "here" and you're finally "here" and the first thing you see is an Imperial Knight, you're probably not going to be super psyched about engaging it.

They also have rivalries with each other that can be affected by their successes and failures in the real world. So while they can't "die" here (I think they actually CAN to be fair but it takes very special circumstances), they potentially have a lot riding on it. But that's for the demons w/some semblence of sentience. IDK about things like Beasts of Nurgle or Seekers or whatever. I could see them maybe being immune?

I think Beasts of Nurgle are too simple minded and child like to be affected by morale.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So, I play Slaanesh Daemons and I will say that if you want "narratively intuitive" then the Horus Heresy list is a way better model than the 40k list.

First of all, we'll cover deployment.

Daemons don't deploy. After deployment, they get to place Warp Rifts (essentially the dimensional portals) anywhere on the board (abiding by certain restrictions e.g. distance from enemy / objectives / etc).

Daemons then must come through these Warp Rifts on their own movement phase via a Reserves rule, though the enemy can completely surround one to shut it down so you have to be careful in placing the Warp Rifts.

Lesser Daemons (Daemonettes, Bloodletters, etc) start at T4 base, but there's a fascinating rule to represent how the Daemonic hold on reality works:

In T1, they're T+1, S+1 (so T5)
In T2, they retain those bonuses.
In T3 and 4, they're unmodified.
In T4 and T5, they become T-1, S-1 (so T3)
In T6 and T7, they become T-2, S-2 (so T2, instant death'd by bolters).

Among other rules, this is why I think the 30k army list has a better handle on how Daemons work narratively than the 40k list does (where they're essentially "Tyranids with an invuln save").

I agree that those Warp Rifts sound nice, but I'm on the fence about the de/buffs. Against an enemy that can feel emotion, one could argue that the ongoing bloodshed of the battle along with all involved emotions would sustain the hold on reality, at least for the remaining engagement.

Tycho wrote:

Demons can't "die" in the mortal sense, but they can be punished for failure by their patron Gods. To the demons, this is often worse. Plus, many of them spend a long time trying to break the barrier and gain access to the mortal world. You may not be afraid of dying, but if you're a lesser demon who just spent 500 years trying to get "here" and you're finally "here" and the first thing you see is an Imperial Knight, you're probably not going to be super psyched about engaging it.

They also have rivalries with each other that can be affected by their successes and failures in the real world. So while they can't "die" here (I think they actually CAN to be fair but it takes very special circumstances), they potentially have a lot riding on it. But that's for the demons w/some semblence of sentience. IDK about things like Beasts of Nurgle or Seekers or whatever. I could see them maybe being immune?

Are lesser demons self-aware like that? I thought the lesser a demon is, the more "raw" the respective god's aspect it represents. A bloodletter only feeling and being able to express rage and so on.

I think t3 is fine I’d rather see demons have interesting abilities to make them worth more points than just having stats go up.

Beardedragon wrote:

They should all be toughness 4 at least. Hopefully this will change in the future.

Once upon a time having a 4 in a start represented something exceptional. 3s only look bad now because 4s and 5s have become so common. Continual escalation of stats is not actually good for the game.

Taking WS and BS as the example, 2s represent the untrained human baseline. 3s represent a well trained soldier. 4s were basically unheard of for non-augmented humans.
Alien races then shifted these norms in some way. For an example of that, untrained Eldar (guardians) were as accurate as well trained humans.

Zustiur wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

They should all be toughness 4 at least. Hopefully this will change in the future.

Once upon a time having a 4 in a start represented something exceptional. 3s only look bad now because 4s and 5s have become so common. Continual escalation of stats is not actually good for the game.

Taking WS and BS as the example, 2s represent the untrained human baseline. 3s represent a well trained soldier. 4s were basically unheard of for non-augmented humans.
Alien races then shifted these norms in some way. For an example of that, untrained Eldar (guardians) were as accurate as well trained humans.

sure. but i fail to see why a bloodletter should be less duable than a space marine

Beardedragon wrote:

Zustiur wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

They should all be toughness 4 at least. Hopefully this will change in the future.

Once upon a time having a 4 in a start represented something exceptional. 3s only look bad now because 4s and 5s have become so common. Continual escalation of stats is not actually good for the game.

Taking WS and BS as the example, 2s represent the untrained human baseline. 3s represent a well trained soldier. 4s were basically unheard of for non-augmented humans.
Alien races then shifted these norms in some way. For an example of that, untrained Eldar (guardians) were as accurate as well trained humans.

sure. but i fail to see why a bloodletter should be less duable than a space marine

Because GW's game designers decided that's about how scary a thing ought to be in comparison to the big strong good guys, and determined that having the good guys be the biggest and strongest and best at fighting was more important to the consumer than the idea that the universe is scary and the bad guys are threatening.

Well to be fair Khorne could be considered OP if they were very hard hitting and very durable. I don't think lesser daemons were ever supposed to be great all rounders, they had the thing they were very good at and were average everywhere else.

Which is fine, as somebody mentioned Immune to Psychology and causing Fear would up the fluff on tabletop of them but these things have gone out of style long before they got rid of them completely.

I think that bloodletters and plaguebearers should be t4, while daemonettes and horrors could be left at t3, though I wouldn't mind seeing them bumped up as well. One thing that I've always felt to be odd is that horrors are awful in melee despite being modeled with all those blades.

Dai wrote:Well to be fair Khorne could be considered OP if they were very hard hitting and very durable. I don't think lesser daemons were ever supposed to be great all rounders, they had the thing they were very good at and were average everywhere else.

I don't think that that alone would make Khorne daemons OP, since the army is almost exclusively melee-based in a game that focuses a lot on shooting.

Tycho 799192 11154572 wrote:

Demons can't "die" in the mortal sense, but they can be punished for failure by their patron Gods. To the demons, this is often worse. Plus, many of them spend a long time trying to break the barrier and gain access to the mortal world. You may not be afraid of dying, but if you're a lesser demon who just spent 500 years trying to get "here" and you're finally "here" and the first thing you see is an Imperial Knight, you're probably not going to be super psyched about engaging it.

There are rituals and name weapons that can not only kill demons, but also disperse their souls or even make it so they never existed. Specially if they are killed in their true form in the warp. There are also weapons, relics and incantations that can stop a demon from reforming in the warp, or make it so weak on reentering the warp space that the other demons destroy the returners soul. So , while it is a rare case, demons very much are scared of stuff. Also null rod kind of a stuff and anti warp being weapons necron had, scare probably a lot too.

Dai wrote:
Well to be fair Khorne could be considered OP if they were very hard hitting and very durable. I don't think lesser daemons were ever supposed to be great all rounders, they had the thing they were very good at and were average everywhere else.

Which is fine, as somebody mentioned Immune to Psychology and causing Fear would up the fluff on tabletop of them but these things have gone out of style long before they got rid of them completely.

i mean.. the entirety of the chaos daemon rooster has no real shooting so them being better in general than other standard troops wouldnt be too bad would it? they dont even have ranged themselves.

And as someone else said, Khorne is a faction only dedicated around close combat. Would it be so bad for them to be super good at it? This game is super dominated by shooting as it stands, it would be nice to have armies that are super good at close combat too.

Those 30K rules sound nice, but unfortunately GW seems to have a pretty streamlined, competitive approach for 40K in mind. I also liked what I read about the Maggotkin of Nurgle rules from AoS and found them fitting for Nurgle Daemons or DG, but I don't think GW does experiments like these for 40K.

Beardedragon wrote:

i mean.. the entirety of the chaos daemon rooster has no real shooting so them being better in general than other standard troops wouldnt be too bad would it? they dont even have ranged themselves.

And as someone else said, Khorne is a faction only dedicated around close combat. Would it be so bad for them to be super good at it? This game is super dominated by shooting as it stands, it would be nice to have armies that are super good at close combat too.

I agree that Khorne (or Demons in general) can be better in melee to make up for their lack in shooting, but that shooting is super dominant is not true / or too reductive. Tau shooting is as good as ever, but that alone does not win games. Apart from being able to push someone from an objective, you need to be able to hold it as well. This edition is very friendly to melee and you need it to win.

a_typical_hero wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

i mean.. the entirety of the chaos daemon rooster has no real shooting so them being better in general than other standard troops wouldnt be too bad would it? they dont even have ranged themselves.

And as someone else said, Khorne is a faction only dedicated around close combat. Would it be so bad for them to be super good at it? This game is super dominated by shooting as it stands, it would be nice to have armies that are super good at close combat too.

I agree that Khorne (or Demons in general) can be better in melee to make up for their lack in shooting, but that shooting is super dominant is not true / or too reductive. Tau shooting is as good as ever, but that alone does not win games. Apart from being able to push someone from an objective, you need to be able to hold it as well. This edition is very friendly to melee and you need it to win.

saying shooting is dominating is a given, and it doesnt mean a faction that can only shoot works. It means that good shooting with decent close combat, is way better than good close combat with decent shooting. theres no risk to using shooting armies, where as close combat armies can fail charges and need to care about positioning. You can teleport in 10 scarab terminators and lay waste to 80 or so shots that hits on 2s with rerolling 1s, wounding with +1 and -2 AP. Ive been on the receiving end of that combo.

Its not uncommon to lose around 40-60 boys to such a combo (60 on a bad day). Boys dont get blown to smithereens by enemy close combat armies (not saying you cant, but you stand a better chance there), they get blown in to the next thursday by ranged armies.Tell me a close combat combo that can easily be pulled off that can wreck around 60 boys in one turn to a single unit? And thats before they even charge in if they want to. Close combat factions needs a lot of good close combat attacks because you are expected to lose a lot of models when you get in, horde factions at least. Ork Boys dies in troves and unless you run Goff with Str 5 boys, they dont even do a lot when they get in to close combat. But you know what? Im somewhat okay with that, because i have a lot of other toys i can use. Khorne dont have any other toys. They can run in, somewhat slowly compared to slannesh even, and they can hit a little bit better than average. This comes at the cost of having no real ranged power and no units to screen out deepstrikes except placing close combat units in the backlines that you dont want to because they are wasted there.

Close combat armies are much harder to play than armies that have strong shooting because pulling off the close combat game perfectly is difficult. you want the charge, not him, you have to worry about coherency, he barely does, he only has to care about being within the general 24inch range, you have to manage a charge,, get all your models or most your models in range to even be able to deal damage. You have to worry about Look out sir when you charge in because you leave behind your buffer characters, hes sitting perfectly fine without having to worry about it. You need to have great understanding of positioning to pull off the correct consolidation and pile ins and movement, he.. doesnt.

The problem is the high risk of being a close combat specialist versus the medium reward you get from it. Shooting on the other hand is low risk but high rewards.

Tau sucks because they have shooting (which im not even sure how good i would say is) and terrible close combat. a good army is mixed. Chaos Daemons is like tau at that point by that they have terrible shooting but good at close combat, hell they dont even have psychic powers. Im not here to make arguments for whether tau does better than chaos daemons, but i am saying they suffer from the same problem.

One other difference is that the primary game focuses on someone needing to beat away enemies from the objectives which Tau cant do. On the other hand, some combos out there, hell not even combos just flamethrower aggressors as an example, will turn 30 bloodletters in to minced meat and thats a single unit alone. If you want to do the same thing, you first need to actually get in to close combat. Daemons can play the primary game, but playing the primary game for a turn or two doesnt win you games alone. Theres also a secondary game and the fact that you have literally no bloodletters left by turn 2-3

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So, I play Slaanesh Daemons and I will say that if you want "narratively intuitive" then the Horus Heresy list is a way better model than the 40k list.

First of all, we'll cover deployment.

Daemons don't deploy. After deployment, they get to place Warp Rifts (essentially the dimensional portals) anywhere on the board (abiding by certain restrictions e.g. distance from enemy / objectives / etc).

Daemons then must come through these Warp Rifts on their own movement phase via a Reserves rule, though the enemy can completely surround one to shut it down so you have to be careful in placing the Warp Rifts.

Lesser Daemons (Daemonettes, Bloodletters, etc) start at T4 base, but there's a fascinating rule to represent how the Daemonic hold on reality works:

In T1, they're T+1, S+1 (so T5)
In T2, they retain those bonuses.
In T3 and 4, they're unmodified.
In T4 and T5, they become T-1, S-1 (so T3)
In T6 and T7, they become T-2, S-2 (so T2, instant death'd by bolters).

Among other rules, this is why I think the 30k army list has a better handle on how Daemons work narratively than the 40k list does (where they're essentially "Tyranids with an invuln save").

This sound cool but doesnt It make demons a bit too stromg ? With how frontloaded Warhammer games are

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Those 30K rules sound nice, but unfortunately GW seems to have a pretty streamlined, competitive approach for 40K in mind. I also liked what I read about the Maggotkin of Nurgle rules from AoS and found them fitting for Nurgle Daemons or DG, but I don't think GW does experiments like these for 40K.

My last game played was an Admech Vs Admech mirror match, I PROMISE YOU that those CD rules from 30k are less complicated than what GW is curently putting out in the 9th codexes...

 Galas wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So, I play Slaanesh Daemons and I will say that if you want "narratively intuitive" then the Horus Heresy list is a way better model than the 40k list.

First of all, we'll cover deployment.

Daemons don't deploy. After deployment, they get to place Warp Rifts (essentially the dimensional portals) anywhere on the board (abiding by certain restrictions e.g. distance from enemy / objectives / etc).

Daemons then must come through these Warp Rifts on their own movement phase via a Reserves rule, though the enemy can completely surround one to shut it down so you have to be careful in placing the Warp Rifts.

Lesser Daemons (Daemonettes, Bloodletters, etc) start at T4 base, but there's a fascinating rule to represent how the Daemonic hold on reality works:

In T1, they're T+1, S+1 (so T5)
In T2, they retain those bonuses.
In T3 and 4, they're unmodified.
In T4 and T5, they become T-1, S-1 (so T3)
In T6 and T7, they become T-2, S-2 (so T2, instant death'd by bolters).

Among other rules, this is why I think the 30k army list has a better handle on how Daemons work narratively than the 40k list does (where they're essentially "Tyranids with an invuln save").

This sound cool but doesnt It make demons a bit too stromg ? With how frontloaded Warhammer games are

No, they have some significant drawbacks. I can get into it if you want, but the short version is:

1) They can never charge on Turn 1 - units that come in from reserves can't charge in HH as a rule, and so they have to stand around their warp portal for a turn. They can shoot (and do psychic powers), but their shooting weapons are somewhat lacking, and you want to survive the coming storm so most powers you will cast are either defensive or debuffing the enemy (and don't depend on S or T in any case).
2) With turn 1 wasted, they can charge Turn 2, but the enemy has had time to react and relocate (since they can see where your units came on).
3) The toughness is useful to survive, but you don't really get to use it all that much, especially if you go 2nd (since you can't use it at all on their first shooting phase, so you'll only benefit from it in one shooting phase). The strength is only useful Turn 2, if you can make charges to units trying to get away. It can only be useful turn 1 if you went first and have an opponent suicidal enough to throw himself onto your claws.

 Galas wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So, I play Slaanesh Daemons and I will say that if you want "narratively intuitive" then the Horus Heresy list is a way better model than the 40k list.

First of all, we'll cover deployment.

Daemons don't deploy. After deployment, they get to place Warp Rifts (essentially the dimensional portals) anywhere on the board (abiding by certain restrictions e.g. distance from enemy / objectives / etc).

Daemons then must come through these Warp Rifts on their own movement phase via a Reserves rule, though the enemy can completely surround one to shut it down so you have to be careful in placing the Warp Rifts.

Lesser Daemons (Daemonettes, Bloodletters, etc) start at T4 base, but there's a fascinating rule to represent how the Daemonic hold on reality works:

In T1, they're T+1, S+1 (so T5)
In T2, they retain those bonuses.
In T3 and 4, they're unmodified.
In T4 and T5, they become T-1, S-1 (so T3)
In T6 and T7, they become T-2, S-2 (so T2, instant death'd by bolters).

Among other rules, this is why I think the 30k army list has a better handle on how Daemons work narratively than the 40k list does (where they're essentially "Tyranids with an invuln save").

This sound cool but doesnt It make demons a bit too stromg ? With how frontloaded Warhammer games are

Worth noting that the ability for these daemons to mass their army into a big giant alpha strike is somewhat blunted by them needing to roll a 3+ to come on thru the warp rifts.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So, I play Slaanesh Daemons and I will say that if you want "narratively intuitive" then the Horus Heresy list is a way better model than the 40k list.

First of all, we'll cover deployment.

Daemons don't deploy. After deployment, they get to place Warp Rifts (essentially the dimensional portals) anywhere on the board (abiding by certain restrictions e.g. distance from enemy / objectives / etc).

Daemons then must come through these Warp Rifts on their own movement phase via a Reserves rule, though the enemy can completely surround one to shut it down so you have to be careful in placing the Warp Rifts.

Lesser Daemons (Daemonettes, Bloodletters, etc) start at T4 base, but there's a fascinating rule to represent how the Daemonic hold on reality works:

In T1, they're T+1, S+1 (so T5)
In T2, they retain those bonuses.
In T3 and 4, they're unmodified.
In T4 and T5, they become T-1, S-1 (so T3)
In T6 and T7, they become T-2, S-2 (so T2, instant death'd by bolters).

Among other rules, this is why I think the 30k army list has a better handle on how Daemons work narratively than the 40k list does (where they're essentially "Tyranids with an invuln save").

This sound cool but doesnt It make demons a bit too stromg ? With how frontloaded Warhammer games are

Worth noting that the ability for these daemons to mass their army into a big giant alpha strike is somewhat blunted by them needing to roll a 3+ to come on thru the warp rifts.

Also this, though it can be mitigated somewhat by the Vanguard of Hell rules (you can get 1 HQ and some elite infantry guaranteed on Turn 1).

Thanks! That sounds very cool. I want to try tts HH with my Friends to see if we like It before buying anything but...eh... Sourcing the rules has been a little complicated and confusing

 Galas wrote:
Thanks! That sounds very cool. I want to try tts HH with my Friends to see if we like It before buying anything but...eh... Sourcing the rules has been a little complicated and confusing

Really? If you can source the core book (a hard copy of the mini-rulebook for 7th is about $7 on Ebay right now, and the only difference between that and the 30k rulebook is Invisibility) you can fake the rest easily enough with Battlescribe, there aren't piles and piles of special rules that aren't on any unit's datasheet the way there are in 40k.

 the_scotsman wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Those 30K rules sound nice, but unfortunately GW seems to have a pretty streamlined, competitive approach for 40K in mind. I also liked what I read about the Maggotkin of Nurgle rules from AoS and found them fitting for Nurgle Daemons or DG, but I don't think GW does experiments like these for 40K.

My last game played was an Admech Vs Admech mirror match, I PROMISE YOU that those CD rules from 30k are less complicated than what GW is curently putting out in the 9th codexes...

I didn't really mean it in the way of how complicated rules are, but more like original, unique rules. With unit special rules, faction special, subfaction rules and so on 40K of course has a lot of stuff, but most of these are pretty samey. Every faction has some kind of transhuman biology for example, Necrons have it on their vehicles, Dark Angels for a subfaction, others via stratagems and so on.
Looking at 9th Codizes I'd say reanimation protocols are the only unique rule with a mechanic noone else has that also makes the faction feel pretty different.
Think about the unique deployment Daemons had in their first Codex, where everything deep struck, half of your army (You had to roll for which half!) came in first turn, the other later. It wasn't great and made Daemons hard to use, but it was fun. Something like that would be nice, especially with how GW also manages patches these days to adjust things if they don't work.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Thanks! That sounds very cool. I want to try tts HH with my Friends to see if we like It before buying anything but...eh... Sourcing the rules has been a little complicated and confusing

Really? If you can source the core book (a hard copy of the mini-rulebook for 7th is about $7 on Ebay right now, and the only difference between that and the 30k rulebook is Invisibility) you can fake the rest easily enough with Battlescribe, there aren't piles and piles of special rules that aren't on any unit's datasheet the way there are in 40k.

isn't there a new edition expected very soon? I am also looking at jumping into HH and have a few of the old starter boxes laying around unbuilt to start me off just waiting on the new edition to see how i should build them and what bits to get to go with. leaning alpha legion or dark angels at the moment

also semi on the topic here hopign i cna justify a second army a demons army that will work in 30k, 40k and fantasy (not necessarily that does well, just valid in all)

I miss the days when my Plaguebearers cost more points but were significantly harder to kill. It felt much more thematic to me.
But then GW started pumping out the "yeah, they die in droves, but they're cheaper point-wise so you can buy more product field more models on the table!"

Just like I much preferred my Bloodcrushers to cost a bunch but shrug off small arms fire like the fluff keeps insisting (despite Mahreen scouts killing mine off with just bolt pistols).

 KidCthulhu wrote:
I miss the days when my Plaguebearers cost more points but were significantly harder to kill. It felt much more thematic to me.
But then GW started pumping out the "yeah, they die in droves, but they're cheaper point-wise so you can buy more product field more models on the table!"

Just like I much preferred my Bloodcrushers to cost a bunch but shrug off small arms fire like the fluff keeps insisting (despite Mahreen scouts killing mine off with just bolt pistols).

Orks can be T5 but not Plaguebearers apparently.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Thanks! That sounds very cool. I want to try tts HH with my Friends to see if we like It before buying anything but...eh... Sourcing the rules has been a little complicated and confusing

Really? If you can source the core book (a hard copy of the mini-rulebook for 7th is about $7 on Ebay right now, and the only difference between that and the 30k rulebook is Invisibility) you can fake the rest easily enough with Battlescribe, there aren't piles and piles of special rules that aren't on any unit's datasheet the way there are in 40k.

isn't there a new edition expected very soon? I am also looking at jumping into HH and have a few of the old starter boxes laying around unbuilt to start me off just waiting on the new edition to see how i should build them and what bits to get to go with. leaning alpha legion or dark angels at the moment

also semi on the topic here hopign i cna justify a second army a demons army that will work in 30k, 40k and fantasy (not necessarily that does well, just valid in all)

The leaked preview images still show scatter dice, so it's probably using the same rulebook rather than trying to awkwardly cram the game into 9th.

As to a three-game Daemons list it can definitely work; there are edge cases where the roster doesn't quite translate (going just by base size the chariots plug into the Daemon Behemoth slot in the army list, which are verging on superheavies), but you can use almost anything else in all three systems.

Beardedragon wrote:
...the chaos daemon rooster...

Now there's a mental image...

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Orks can be T5 but not Plaguebearers apparently.

Can we see what happens when the 9th Daemons book turns up before making this sort of comment, please? Different editions mean different design paradigms, especially if they're starting to open up the stat element of the design space in 9th (in some areas, anyway).

I see it actually likely that Nurgle will get a bump here, as Poxwalkers went from T3 to T4.