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From the designer's notes of Codex: Chaos 2nd edition 40k:

Another interesting spin we came up with was to make Chaos Space Marines forces feel as if they had been exiled to the Eye of Terror ten millennia before the Imperium's "present" day. Though the technological advancement of the Imperium moves at the speed of an aged tortoise ten thousand years was bound to bring some changes. This suggested limiting the Traitor Legion's weaponry to some of the "older" types and making others dangerous, experimental precursors of the guns used by Imperial Space Marines. This, combined with the older patterns of power armour the designers have used, gives the Chaos Space Marines miniatures a dark, archaic feel which contrasts well with the clean, upright loyalist space marines.

This design philosophy seemed to stick for the two 3rd edition CSM codexes, and mostly in the 4th edition codex, but starting with the 6th edition codex gw seemed to be moving away from it and more towards an emphasis on more daemon engines and similar units to differentiate the Legions from loyalists.

Starting with 8th, we saw things like giving loyalists access to Cataphractii and Tartaros terminator armor, while not giving the same access to CSM. Fw, for their part, seemed to stick with the old paradigm by giving the Legions unfettered access to Heresy era units while restricting them for loyalists with the Relic rules.

Starting in 9th edition, both CSM and loyalists now have the exact same restrictions on Heresy era units. Loyalists continue to have access to "Relic Terminators", along with new access to volkite weaponry and even the formerly "for Heretics only " Reaper Autocannon. They also have unrestricted access to Contemptors through their codex.

So is this old method for differentiating the two forces now dead and buried? Or just less emphasized? And if so, is it a good thing?

I collected CSM in 2nd edition, and remember that they had older wargear. I think plasma guns were more likely to explode and the reaper autocannon was a precursor to the assault cannon used by loyalists.

I liked that aesthetic and it’s what still I think of regarding CSM. Probably because that’s when I played them. I dropped out of the hobby midway through 4th edition I think, and got back in during 8th, so didn’t see the introduction of modern equipment for CSM.

From what I’ve seen it seems the CSM fluff has moved on some (as has the rest of the background) and while I remember CSMs as almost all being veterans of the long war, with a few asides to more recent traitors (I think the tyrant of Badab was in 2nd Ed), it looks like the renegades and heretics aspect was expanded.

CSMs now appear to be less likely to have fought in the Horus heresy even for the original traitor legions as there are references to recruiting new ones and raids on the imperium for supplies etc.

I’ll always like the idea that CSMs are still fighting the Horus heresy and the warriors are by and large veterans of the original rebellion. I like the distinction between them and the loyalists, more so with the introduction of Primaris.

Already 4th edition did away with that ancient Warriors approach when it declared that most CSM are ragtag Renegades instead.
Concerning equipment it's hard to draw lines. I think it was a terrible decision in 7th to give the ancient Terminators to loyalists (and not to CSM) only to sell more of the HH sets. I'm okay with Dreadnoughts, these were always supposed to be relics. Adding gatling guns to CSM apparently was supposed to be a throwback to the old idea because Forgeworld introduced them in HH, but it doesn't really hold due to the Assault cannon being a gatling gun, too. So nowadays you have CSM with Assault cannons and SM with Autocannons (suppressors). But Primaris stole all the stubbers from IG, I guess they can steal our Autocannons, too.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Already 4th edition did away with that ancient Warriors approach when it declared that most CSM are ragtag Renegades instead.
Concerning equipment it's hard to draw lines. I think it was a terrible decision in 7th to give the ancient Terminators to loyalists (and not to CSM) only to sell more of the HH sets. I'm okay with Dreadnoughts, these were always supposed to be relics. Adding gatling guns to CSM apparently was supposed to be a throwback to the old idea because Forgeworld introduced them in HH, but it doesn't really hold due to the Assault cannon being a gatling gun, too. So nowadays you have CSM with Assault cannons and SM with Autocannons (suppressors). But Primaris stole all the stubbers from IG, I guess they can steal our Autocannons, too.

I hadn’t realised the renegades were introduced so early, I’d moved on from CSM to tyranids by then, so wasn’t as well versed with them.

I think the "Relic Terminator Armour" datasheet is an outlier, not an indicator of future trends; both sides in 30k look a lot more like 40k loyalists than 40k CSM, so when they did the generic plastic kits they labeled the 40k rules for loyalists rather than traitors. That's really it.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Already 4th edition did away with that ancient Warriors approach when it declared that most CSM are ragtag Renegades instead.
Concerning equipment it's hard to draw lines. I think it was a terrible decision in 7th to give the ancient Terminators to loyalists (and not to CSM) only to sell more of the HH sets. I'm okay with Dreadnoughts, these were always supposed to be relics. Adding gatling guns to CSM apparently was supposed to be a throwback to the old idea because Forgeworld introduced them in HH, but it doesn't really hold due to the Assault cannon being a gatling gun, too. So nowadays you have CSM with Assault cannons and SM with Autocannons (suppressors). But Primaris stole all the stubbers from IG, I guess they can steal our Autocannons, too.

The 4th edition codex emphasized warbands, yes, but not entirely of Renegades:

However, within the Eye of Terror, time flows differently, and the same traitors who howled their praises to the Gods of Chaos before the Imperial Palace still live to this day. Their defeat gnaws at them like a cancer, and their hatred of the Imperium that they helped forge burns undimmed. These deadly warriors who were tall, powerful Space Marines, proud fighters clad in plasteel and ceramite armour, have become cynical and embittered reivers determined to destroy what they once protected. For these warriors the Heresy is not some distant, half-forgotten age, but a glorious war still in living memory - a war that is still being fought.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines: 4th edition, page 17

They also still used mostly old equipment and weapons. The only "new" thing being allowing everyone to use Vindicators, instead of just Iron Warriors. 4th did erase most distinctions between Legions though, reducing everyone to basically Black Legion with different paint schemes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I think the "Relic Terminator Armour" datasheet is an outlier, not an indicator of future trends; both sides in 30k look a lot more like 40k loyalists than 40k CSM, so when they did the generic plastic kits they labeled the 40k rules for loyalists rather than traitors. That's really it.

So, no spikes, no CSM? What about imposing the same restrictions on HH units for both loyalists and the actual veterans of the Horus Heresy? As well as removing all of the CSM specific weapons and equipment from those units?

These days CSM feel more like old dudes with bad weapons.

yukishiro1 wrote:
These days CSM feel more like old dudes with bad weapons.

I’m not sure if you’re saying this is a good thing or a bad thing. Personally I’m in favour of it. CSM should be ancient warriors (old dudes) with antiquated (bad) equipment, holding a personal grudge against the imperium.

Throw in a few ancient relics and balance the obsolete and misfiring weaponry with chaos marks and daemonic power and I think CSMs would be in a good spot.

I remember when the Mk.I Plasma Gun overheating rules got flanderised in 3rd (and beyond) to all Imperial-based plasma weaponry.

I meant more in the "confused old dude waving a stick at a cloud" kind of way. CSM are just sad right now. Even by GW's standards, letting them fester for more than a year without the updates loyalists got on day 1 of the new edition is quite remarkable, and not in a good way.

They've gone from terrifying central antagonists to more or less total irrelevance both in terms of rules and their place in the overall setting. Them and Eldar. It feels like GW has either run out of ideas or is just bored with what used to be the premier non-loyalist factions.

i think hes more complaining that the CSM armies, as a faction, are mostly much weaker than the loyalist marines, as a faction. "regular" CSM are deep in the pack, and Tsons are bottom 3 on tourney stats (with GSC and Tau), with only the death guard giving a good showing right now. the tsons will hopefully bounce up a lot when thier codex drops later this year, but still, they arent likely to get past "decent".

on topic, i think CSM are suffering form a long standing issue of trying to cram several mutually incompatible themes into a single codex. the traitor legions are just as varied as the the loyalist ones, if not more so, but 7 of them have to share a rulebook, and that rulebook has to try and represent armies as different as the "Chaos is God" Word Bearers, the "Chaos is a means to our ends" Night Lords, the mindless fury of the World Eaters mindless hedonism of the Emperors Children. Mostly, it cant do this and reduces most of those to Black Legion in different paint schemes.

I think it might be possible to do all those well in a single army book, but it would require much more variation in subfactions than any existing codex has thus far shown. So the CSM book is always going to be a bit of hot mess, or at best Codex: Black Legion (and friends)


edit: and i agree that they could have pushed out that second wound by now if they really wanted too. the recent points update would have been the perfect time to do so (espically since they dropped the updated Tsons values but held them "suspended" until the codex could be released. I know, I know, COVID, Brexit, GWs plans are all in pieces, etc, etc, but still, its not a secret, they have been planning to give CSM a 2nd wound since the start of 9th. they have proven they are willing to errata 9th ed changes into 8th ed rulebooks (see: changes to imperial weapons brought on by 9e codex: space marines), so IF THEY WANTED TO, they could have done it.


they haven;t , so i am left to guess they kinda want to let CSM fade a little for the time being, presumably until they finally bring out Codex: CSM with some new hotness and then everyone goes and buys more.

No he is complaining about the detirioation of the distinction through a diffrent armoury.
Mind right now loyalist have easier and better access to HH era Units than csm, which is absurd.

Also if gw would get its gak together they easily could do such a dex. Afterall gw did it in the past twice.

xerxeskingofking wrote:
i think hes more complaining that the CSM armies, as a faction, are mostly much weaker than the loyalist marines, as a faction. "regular" CSM are deep in the pack, and Tsons are bottom 3 on tourney stats (with GSC and Tau), with only the death guard giving a good showing right now. the tsons will hopefully bounce up a lot when thier codex drops later this year, but still, they arent likely to get past "decent".

on topic, i think CSM are suffering form a long standing issue of trying to cram several mutually incompatible themes into a single codex. the traitor legions are just as varied as the the loyalist ones, if not more so, but 7 of them have to share a rulebook, and that rulebook has to try and represent armies as different as the "Chaos is God" Word Bearers, the "Chaos is a means to our ends" Night Lords, the mindless fury of the World Eaters mindless hedonism of the Emperors Children. Mostly, it cant do this and reduces most of those to Black Legion in different paint schemes.

I think it might be possible to do all those well in a single army book, but it would require much more variation in subfactions than any existing codex has thus far shown. So the CSM book is always going to be a bit of hot mess, or at best Codex: Black Legion (and friends)

They did it in 3.5, in only 80 pages. That's half the page count of the current CSM codex. It isn't that difficult of a task. They've just refused to do it for the last five editions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:
No he is complaining about the detirioation of the distinction through a diffrent armoury.
Mind right now loyalist have easier and better access to HH era Units than csm, which is absurd.

Also if gw would get its gak together they easily could do such a dex. Afterall gw did it in the past twice.

Exactly.

Purely from a fluff perspective, we should really be seeing a little bit of everything represented in CSM.

- Horus Heresy era tech, some of which should essentially be as new, due to time being inconsistent in 'Eye-Space'.
- Straight copies of anything that the Imperium has. Taken from raids, off the dead, and from deserters (which include Astartes in numbers not infrequently).
- Unique technology that the Imperium does not have. Half of the Mechanicum is playing that side of the field, and they have none of the 'new technology' restrictions that the modern Mechanicus does, not to mention access to whatever unique STC's they possess.

Largely, outside of the advantage of pure organisation, I'd argue that it should generally be the Imperium that is playing catch up in terms of technology and advances. We see rather the opposite on the table these days.

I wonder how understood a lot of the current fluff with regard to CSM is in the player base as a whole. ADB's excellent 'Black Legion' books (not to mention his Night Lords entries), has really rebuilt and redefined much of how 'CSM' as a faction(s) really operate with regard to the lore. I'd highly recommend a reading of both series.

 StrayIight wrote:
- Unique technology that the Imperium does not have. Half of the Mechanicum is playing that side of the field, and they have none of the 'new technology' restrictions that the modern Mechanicus does, not to mention access to whatever unique STC's they possess.

Out of curiosity, when did the concept of the Dark Mechanicus come in? I don’t remember it from 2nd/3rd (I was gone from the hobby by the time the 3.5 Codex came out).

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
[
They did it in 3.5, in only 80 pages. That's half the page count of the current CSM codex. It isn't that difficult of a task. They've just refused to do it for the last five editions.

yeah, but it probably required a lot of work to write, and the designers on the book probably liked and wanted to play various chaos space marine armies. Nowadays you are lucky, if you get a designer like the DE got, that wanted them to work in a specific way, and gave them this one very good way to play. Sucks for those DE players, that wanted to footslog, but in general it is the design that counts as good. Because you can very much get a soulless book like the DW got for example.

 Horla wrote:

 StrayIight wrote:
- Unique technology that the Imperium does not have. Half of the Mechanicum is playing that side of the field, and they have none of the 'new technology' restrictions that the modern Mechanicus does, not to mention access to whatever unique STC's they possess.

Out of curiosity, when did the concept of the Dark Mechanicus come in? I don’t remember it from 2nd/3rd (I was gone from the hobby by the time the 3.5 Codex came out).

they've been part of the lore since basically the 1st iterations of the Heresy have been in the early 90s, at least since the original Adeptus Titanicus stuff (as part of the reason both sides were using identical units), as it wasnt just half the marines that turned traitor, but simmilar amounts of the imperiums other armed forces as well.

For a very long time they were a "deep lore" thing that was mentioned offhand a few times with little else (to handwave why the chaos armies tech still worked if the imps needed the admech to make theirs work), but the fleshing out of the Horus Hersey form the book series brought them a bit more to the forefront. they're still pretty much a "background" element, though, only really getting a mention in works with chaos/traitor protagonists. I cant think of any dark mechanicus models in 40K (though i half expect to get corrected on that). A quick look at their wiki page makes it seem like a lot of the lore surrounding them seems to be form non table-top stuff like the Dark Heresy RPG and such.

Now, i think they'd make a badass chaos faction or sub faction on the TT (maybe something like the sisters of silence, ie a mini faction able to ally with other armies but not block purity bonuses),

The best lore source for the Dark Mechanicus is probably IA13. They feature quite a bit in the fluff in it, being how it's about the things they build and maintain (tanks, dreadnoughts, daemon engines, etc) for the Legions, themselves, and other Chaos forces like Renegades and Heretics. It even has a list of several Hellforges, with descriptions.

As for a Dark Mechanicus model? The model suggested by fw for a Chaos Hellwright was a Dark Mechanicus model from HH, but that unit is in Legends now.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I remember when the Mk.I Plasma Gun overheating rules got flanderised in 3rd (and beyond) to all Imperial-based plasma weaponry.

Initially as pretty much said in the 2nd edition Chaos Codex, the risk of blowing up was supposed to show how the CSM cared about power and did not care about safety or human life. The background was eventually the rate of Marine losses to plasma weapon malfunctions was judged too wasteful so the Adeptus Mechanicus increased the cooldown period. The Imperial versions in 2nd edition did not blow up but had to recharge for 1 turn. However that made them horrible weapon choices in an edition where games lasted 4 turns. In 2nd edition, not every plasma weapon malfunction resulted in instant death. Some resulted in survivable hits, which tilted the balance towards the unsafe Mk. 1 plasma weapons rather than safer Imperial ones.

When 3rd edition rolled around, it looks like in the attempt to minimize bookkeeping they decided to make all plasma weapons unsafe.


The thing is for 40K, older may or may not mean better. In 2nd edition, the Chaos Legions were described as going with older solidly reliable weapons rather than more temperamental, high maintenance, or just newly issued prototype equipment when they retreated into the Eye. That was why CSM had the Reaper instead of the Assault Cannon. In 2nd edition, the Assault Cannon had potentially higher fire rate, whereas the Reaper was less likely to jam. That same explanation was used as the explanation for why their Termiantor suits lacked targeters (too fragile and all gone after so many years of warfare in the Eye), and why they had no anti-grav vehicles like Land speeders (no access to the grav-plates and any remaining ones soon broke down).

The problem is there is also the competing paradigm of 40K being a fallen era even compared to 30K, and so some 30K equipment is better than 40K. The problem arises when in-universe, it gets justified that loyalists get these preserved relics, whereas the CSM don't, at least not rules-wise. Perhaps the explanation is that any surviving examples taken by the CSM would like their Terminator targeters, broke down or not survived all the warfare in the Eye's warped time. While it makes sense perhaps from a fluff perspective, from an out of universe player perspective it does make things uneven for the Chaos players in terms of equipment.

In BFG the reverse seems to have happened, with the Chaos fleets in general comprising older ships, however these older ships being generally faster and more long range guns than their Imperial counterparts. The idea being that Imperial ship technology gradually slipped leading to the phasing out of Grand Cruisers as a class, and reliance on simpler designs that used the expedient method of slapping on slabs of armor over the prow to compensate for their weaknesses of slower engines and shorter range guns.

Sadly GW seemed to think that there was more mileage in giveing Loyalists relics from 30k.

I genuinely think GW have never really known what they are doing with CSM as a faction, the codex should just be codex black legion and the idea that they are made from different groups of heretics for over 10k years works for the available models. Plus all the demonic machines etc. Abbadon controls the black legion and has changed them from a HH legion to a different fighting force a long time ago.

They should take all the traitor legion stuff out the codex and create codexes for some of the other traitor legions, as is commonly stated EC and WE.

I think both EC and WE are really well suited to having plenty of examples of remnants of the HH in their Arsenal and stuff like noise weapons and beserkers etc.

The fact that SM have old pattern terminator armour and DA have HH era plasma weapons (which contrary to the OPs copy and paste are better than 40K plasma) just doesn’t make sense.

Time doesn’t pass the same in the eye as the rest of the galaxy so it’s conceivable that they could have lots of HH era weapons that are not that well aged

mrFickle wrote:

Time doesn’t pass the same in the eye as the rest of the galaxy so it’s conceivable that they could have lots of HH era weapons that are not that well aged

While time in the Eye does not pass the same as the rest of the galaxy, the general depiction by GW is that it seems to pass more slowly in general as the CSM characters in the fiction report a longer subjective time in the Eye because all sorts of internecine wars are described. CSM may experience centuries for every year of realspace that passes, which is why they call themselves veterans of the Long War. Time enough for their weapons to break down, and their bodies and wargear to mutate, with some ascending to be daemon princes. The opposite cases where CSM experience a shortened subjective time has been the rarer depiction by GW. It wouldn't be the Long War if the majority of CSM had only experienced a few days or weeks since the end of the Heresy.

Iracundus wrote:

Spoiler:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I remember when the Mk.I Plasma Gun overheating rules got flanderised in 3rd (and beyond) to all Imperial-based plasma weaponry.

Initially as pretty much said in the 2nd edition Chaos Codex, the risk of blowing up was supposed to show how the CSM cared about power and did not care about safety or human life. The background was eventually the rate of Marine losses to plasma weapon malfunctions was judged too wasteful so the Adeptus Mechanicus increased the cooldown period. The Imperial versions in 2nd edition did not blow up but had to recharge for 1 turn. However that made them horrible weapon choices in an edition where games lasted 4 turns. In 2nd edition, not every plasma weapon malfunction resulted in instant death. Some resulted in survivable hits, which tilted the balance towards the unsafe Mk. 1 plasma weapons rather than safer Imperial ones.

When 3rd edition rolled around, it looks like in the attempt to minimize bookkeeping they decided to make all plasma weapons unsafe.


The thing is for 40K, older may or may not mean better. In 2nd edition, the Chaos Legions were described as going with older solidly reliable weapons rather than more temperamental, high maintenance, or just newly issued prototype equipment when they retreated into the Eye. That was why CSM had the Reaper instead of the Assault Cannon. In 2nd edition, the Assault Cannon had potentially higher fire rate, whereas the Reaper was less likely to jam. That same explanation was used as the explanation for why their Termiantor suits lacked targeters (too fragile and all gone after so many years of warfare in the Eye), and why they had no anti-grav vehicles like Land speeders (no access to the grav-plates and any remaining ones soon broke down).

The problem is there is also the competing paradigm of 40K being a fallen era even compared to 30K, and so some 30K equipment is better than 40K. The problem arises when in-universe, it gets justified that loyalists get these preserved relics, whereas the CSM don't, at least not rules-wise. Perhaps the explanation is that any surviving examples taken by the CSM would like their Terminator targeters, broke down or not survived all the warfare in the Eye's warped time. While it makes sense perhaps from a fluff perspective, from an out of universe player perspective it does make things uneven for the Chaos players in terms of equipment.

In BFG the reverse seems to have happened, with the Chaos fleets in general comprising older ships, however these older ships being generally faster and more long range guns than their Imperial counterparts. The idea being that Imperial ship technology gradually slipped leading to the phasing out of Grand Cruisers as a class, and reliance on simpler designs that used the expedient method of slapping on slabs of armor over the prow to compensate for their weaknesses of slower engines and shorter range guns.

It doesn't make sense from a fluff perspective when we have fluff that says that the Dark Mechanicus can both build and maintain Heresy era units. IA13 says they can manufacture things all the way up to Fellblades, although in limited quantities. Some don't even need complete STCs, the Hellforge of Sarum manufactures Thunderhawks without them. The Dark Mechanicus doesn't have the same "religious issues" as the loyalist Mechanicus.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I think the "Relic Terminator Armour" datasheet is an outlier, not an indicator of future trends; both sides in 30k look a lot more like 40k loyalists than 40k CSM, so when they did the generic plastic kits they labeled the 40k rules for loyalists rather than traitors. That's really it.

So, no spikes, no CSM? What about imposing the same restrictions on HH units for both loyalists and the actual veterans of the Horus Heresy? As well as removing all of the CSM specific weapons and equipment from those units?

We already know GW is more concerned with models than lore from "no kit, no rules", there's apparently a "yes kit, yes rules" corrolary to that. And the only CSM-specific item in either the Cataphracii or Tartaros kit is the autocannon (unless you want to get snippy about calling the storm bolter a combi-bolter, they're mechanically identical in 8th/9th), the plasma blaster, grenade harness, and volkite charger aren't on any other 40k units (where volkite still exists it's become almost entirely a Mechanicum thing), both sides still have combi-weapons and heavy flamers, and the melee weapons are all the same.

I am actually playing a Dark Mechanicus army on the tabletop with no actual CSM using the CSM (and legends) rules.

Well I do have one Master of Possession in the army, actually.

I do think they have hit the "dark Mechanicus comes out with new tech, unconstrained by religious doctrine" bit with all the new daemon engines, but it reads a bit hollow when the entire Loyalist Mechanicus book comes out with WAY MORE new technology.

I remember the old days when Mechanicus armies were just slightly better guardsmen (like the 6th edition fluff that the Skitarii of Ryza used executioner Leman Russes almost exclusively, no Onager Dunecrawlers in sight)

As people have said, Chaos seems to be a mix of:
"The old Traitor Legions still fighting a war the began 10,000 years ago".
"Dave who went rogue last week, and consequently lost access to all the new gear Marines have picked up since 5th edition (for reasons)."
and: "Daemons did it. Gib moar daemon stuff."

By degree this is arguably not a bad thing - since it allows for you to tailor your dudes as your dudes. But in practice I think you end up with a somewhat directionless mess in terms of equipment, faction special rules, character boosts from warlord traits and relics etc.

I don't feel a basic CSM is a 10,000 year veteran. And fluffwise I'm not sure I'm meant to. (He could after all just be a chump one of the Legions uplifted much more recently to make up numbers.)

But in terms of wargear - aside from the reaper autocannon, there's never really been much. Or at least not in vaguely recent history (3rd being what, 23 years ago?).

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

Spoiler:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I remember when the Mk.I Plasma Gun overheating rules got flanderised in 3rd (and beyond) to all Imperial-based plasma weaponry.

Initially as pretty much said in the 2nd edition Chaos Codex, the risk of blowing up was supposed to show how the CSM cared about power and did not care about safety or human life. The background was eventually the rate of Marine losses to plasma weapon malfunctions was judged too wasteful so the Adeptus Mechanicus increased the cooldown period. The Imperial versions in 2nd edition did not blow up but had to recharge for 1 turn. However that made them horrible weapon choices in an edition where games lasted 4 turns. In 2nd edition, not every plasma weapon malfunction resulted in instant death. Some resulted in survivable hits, which tilted the balance towards the unsafe Mk. 1 plasma weapons rather than safer Imperial ones.

When 3rd edition rolled around, it looks like in the attempt to minimize bookkeeping they decided to make all plasma weapons unsafe.


The thing is for 40K, older may or may not mean better. In 2nd edition, the Chaos Legions were described as going with older solidly reliable weapons rather than more temperamental, high maintenance, or just newly issued prototype equipment when they retreated into the Eye. That was why CSM had the Reaper instead of the Assault Cannon. In 2nd edition, the Assault Cannon had potentially higher fire rate, whereas the Reaper was less likely to jam. That same explanation was used as the explanation for why their Termiantor suits lacked targeters (too fragile and all gone after so many years of warfare in the Eye), and why they had no anti-grav vehicles like Land speeders (no access to the grav-plates and any remaining ones soon broke down).

The problem is there is also the competing paradigm of 40K being a fallen era even compared to 30K, and so some 30K equipment is better than 40K. The problem arises when in-universe, it gets justified that loyalists get these preserved relics, whereas the CSM don't, at least not rules-wise. Perhaps the explanation is that any surviving examples taken by the CSM would like their Terminator targeters, broke down or not survived all the warfare in the Eye's warped time. While it makes sense perhaps from a fluff perspective, from an out of universe player perspective it does make things uneven for the Chaos players in terms of equipment.

In BFG the reverse seems to have happened, with the Chaos fleets in general comprising older ships, however these older ships being generally faster and more long range guns than their Imperial counterparts. The idea being that Imperial ship technology gradually slipped leading to the phasing out of Grand Cruisers as a class, and reliance on simpler designs that used the expedient method of slapping on slabs of armor over the prow to compensate for their weaknesses of slower engines and shorter range guns.

It doesn't make sense from a fluff perspective when we have fluff that says that the Dark Mechanicus can both build and maintain Heresy era units. IA13 says they can manufacture things all the way up to Fellblades, although in limited quantities. Some don't even need complete STCs, the Hellforge of Sarum manufactures Thunderhawks without them. The Dark Mechanicus doesn't have the same "religious issues" as the loyalist Mechanicus.

You realize we were talking about 2nd edition, from before the Dark Mechanicus was a really a fleshed out thing right? All of the stuff you mentioned came out long after 2nd edition.

However even then, the Dark Mechanicus is described as being more focused around delving into the areas of technology forbidden to the 30K Mechanicum, mostly the stuff that pertains to use of daemons and warp tech. The Dark Mechanicus would be less focused around maintaining 30K era tech as it was, than doing something to it that results in a new daemon engine or some warped half-flesh/half-metal hybrid like the Obliterator virus.

Out of universe, I think GW's position was to differentiate SM and CSM so that CSM equipment and vehicles are more than just adding spikes to SM kits. That was AFAIK the thinking behind introducing things like the Forgefiend.

xerxeskingofking wrote:
I cant think of any dark mechanicus models in 40K (though i half expect to get corrected on that).

In the 8th ed FW indexes you had Helwrights and Helwrights on Dark Abeyants, no idea if they got rules in the 9th indexes or or Legended or whatever. There is also the Negavolt Cultists from BSF, which have the Dark Mechanicus keyword as well.

I just can't see the new CSM codex being able to truly bring out the flavour and power of the loyalist marines chapters unless the book is huge.

I mean, just comparing Blood Angels/Space Wolves to World Eaters. So three are traditional melee focused legions with very different styles and character. Looking at rules coverage, the two loyalist chapters have 4 pages of generic marine strategems plus 2 pages of chapter specific, their own psychic discipline on top of the 2 in the marine book, the saga/red mist mechanic plus god knows how many relics and warlord traits.

Can you see the chaos legions having even anything close to that much non generic rules? That would be like 14 pages of strategems alone. I honestly think we'll actually lost flavour and rules compared to what we have now with the faith and Fury supplement...

One could argue the Marines are overly-differentiated (i.e. distinction without difference) but I recognize that ship has sailed and agree that you won't see as much distinction in the CSM dex. OR... Gods I hope not!

Codex csm has always felt very silly because they've always been a "the rest of the game" faction, but they look like space marines, so we expect them to have SM-faction level support and attention.

GK are in the same boat right now. Theyve been relegated to the normal cycle of updates and balance and consideration rather than being on the special 3-month Space Marine attention rotation.