Charadon book Two

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**Xenomancers**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Xenomancers 799373 11161465 ec1b4a53663f66e7ade4121ad439d863 wrote:
The source was me - I guessed wrong. After looking at the space marine and Necron Codex (which clearly have something called "restraint" imbedded in their rules) I figured DA was a mistake. It wasn't. The power creep is real.

Is it powercreep when it doesn't result in sustained win percentages above 50%?

You got me dude. Turns out that Terminators are actually that bad in the place in the marine codex that you can give them free and excessive extra rules DA and they still don't do overly well. Its not just the terms - it's the characters too. Or the reality is - DE was so broken it didn't matter.

**Pickled_egg**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

The can deep strike them turn 1 with a relic. They can Deep strike another on turn 2. It is unavoidable. If 160 points is controlling where 450 points can go...you have also already won.

18" guns and obscuring terrain. Buffer the firing lanes with chaff. This isn't always a slam dunk.

maybe true, but the point is you have to actually do something with Be'lakor rather than skulk him about at the back hiding behind screens otherwise that is nearly a quarter of your army doing nothing.
So in effect your 400+ point model is indeed locked down by 160 pts and your opponent probably has redundancy with at least one more block of 20 to make the same play should the first go down.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:

When they release the Drukhari codex and then a week later Book of Rust 1 with a must have Cult of Strife detachment its cynical DLC, simple as that. You can't defend that.
It looks like they are doing the same with sisters.

First of all, do you know what the initial release dates were planned to be?

I'm going to guess "No".

Personally I'd be fine with the Book of Rust series if it served as a bridge to balance factions that they know aren't getting a codex for a while OR kept it to non matched play formations/rules only.

That's not what this is though. We don't have "formations" anymore, by the by. That was two editions ago.

The literal, whole point of this series is not to "serve as a bridge to balance factions". It's to highlight specific warzones. End of story. Some of the content is generic(Mechanicus Defense Force) while some of it is specific(Cult of Strife and Metalica rules) to groups engaged in that area.

Don't like it? Don't buy it.

It's the DLC following hot on the heels of codexes which is a joke.

Frankly, the joke is all the whining over these things. OH NOES THEY RELEASED A BOOK BEFORE/AROUND ANOTHER BOOK! The gall! Those blackguards!

In the real world, people should know that books have been delayed thanks to covid and the general screwed nature of worldwide shipping. We also know that there's several more warzones to come.

I could easily turn your argument around though and say that you don't know what the release dates were supposed to be either and that it may have been "working as intended" to release Book of Rust the week after the Drukhari codex. But then I'd be arguing in bad faith like you are.

As for "Covid did it" that's not valid either.

The fact is if you are a Drukhari player who appreciates the competitive aspect of the game you needed to Buy Book of rust for 3-4 pages of rules. Please don't insult my intelligence and expect me to believe that the most competitive Cult option being hidden away in a DLC supplement is just a co-incidence and not a calculated move by GW to drive sales.

Given that, less than a month after release, that most competitive cult option that was present in the book of rust got deleted from a game in a GENERAL GAME WIDE FAQ AFFECTING ALL ARMIES, I would say yeah, it seems likely to me that it was a co-incidence, and the specific interaction between a generic weapon and a particular warlord trait that caused a character to throw an average of 28 attacks was unintended.

Even with comp edge being fixed CoS is still the best cult by some distance.

**Daedalus81**

Pickled_egg wrote:

maybe true, but the point is you have to actually do something with Be'lakor rather than skulk him about at the back hiding behind screens otherwise that is nearly a quarter of your army doing nothing.
So in effect your 400+ point model is indeed locked down by 160 pts and your opponent probably has redundancy with at least one more block of 20 to make the same play should the first go down.

What he can do will rely heavily on if they update CSM legions with useful rules.

He's not the unit working to trade out the vanguard blocks. That should be chaincannon havoc or similar.

With Shades and good positioning you can put threatening units close to the action.

Otherwise B is very anti-elite and a bit anti-msu so far.

**bullyboy**

ERJAK wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
Lets see if OML will get broken rules similar to CofS and relegate other Orders to narrative.

As for chaos, im currently using Chaos Codex, Faith and Fury, Vigilus Ablaze and Shadowspear demonkin booklet just to run my army. I don't need another supplement, I need a codex

They'd have to get 'if your opponent Blinks he loses' as a 1CP stratagem to go from arguably the worst order to being better than AS or BR.

Guaranteed that the rules will be obnoxious enough to have people run a patrol of OML alongside BR.

**Audustum**

Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.

**Xenomancers**

Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.

New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.

**Seabass**

Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.

You know, admech aren't unbeatable, right? Like, that codex is good, but they can be beaten. How many games have you played against them? It sounds like you have been losing to a really good admech player, and in the hands of a really good player, that codex is very strong, but it's not impossible to play against.

**Audustum**

Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.

While somewhat true (I don't know exactly how long ago it was written), I'm really skeptical he has a price change without any actual play data at all. Staying 360 is a fairly safe bet to me.

**Xenomancers**

Seabass wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.

You know, admech aren't unbeatable, right? Like, that codex is good, but they can be beaten. How many games have you played against them? It sounds like you have been losing to a really good admech player, and in the hands of a really good player, that codex is very strong, but it's not impossible to play against.

My issue is a few stratagems that are way to powerful. I've only played against admech once and I won. Played Ironahnds with lots of tanks and dreads.

**JNAProductions**

Xenomancers wrote:
Seabass wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.

You know, admech aren't unbeatable, right? Like, that codex is good, but they can be beaten. How many games have you played against them? It sounds like you have been losing to a really good admech player, and in the hands of a really good player, that codex is very strong, but it's not impossible to play against.

My issue is a few stratagems that are way to powerful. I've only played against admech once and I won. Played Ironahnds with lots of tanks and dreads.

Don't you play Ultramarines?

**Seabass**

Xenomancers wrote:
Seabass wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.

You know, admech aren't unbeatable, right? Like, that codex is good, but they can be beaten. How many games have you played against them? It sounds like you have been losing to a really good admech player, and in the hands of a really good player, that codex is very strong, but it's not impossible to play against.

My issue is a few stratagems that are way to powerful. I've only played against admech once and I won. Played Ironahnds with lots of tanks and dreads.

That should be, under the current auspices of "admech OP" a slam dunk for them. vehicles and expensive units for them to use all of those laser chickens on, plus the 4+ strat, seems like they should have just eaten that list alive (at least as i think of a list with lots of dreads and tanks). Why do you think the same cannot be made of DoB army?

**Xenomancers**

JNAProductions wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Seabass wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.

You know, admech aren't unbeatable, right? Like, that codex is good, but they can be beaten. How many games have you played against them? It sounds like you have been losing to a really good admech player, and in the hands of a really good player, that codex is very strong, but it's not impossible to play against.

My issue is a few stratagems that are way to powerful. I've only played against admech once and I won. Played Ironahnds with lots of tanks and dreads.
Don't you play Ultramarines?

Played blue hands - Ultramarines have a god awful chapter tactic. Having just completed painting 3 storm speeders and 3 gladiators I've been testing them out. Pretty good results so far.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seabass wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Seabass wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.

You know, admech aren't unbeatable, right? Like, that codex is good, but they can be beaten. How many games have you played against them? It sounds like you have been losing to a really good admech player, and in the hands of a really good player, that codex is very strong, but it's not impossible to play against.

My issue is a few stratagems that are way to powerful. I've only played against admech once and I won. Played Ironahnds with lots of tanks and dreads.

That should be, under the current auspices of "admech OP" a slam dunk for them. vehicles and expensive units for them to use all of those laser chickens on, plus the 4+ strat, seems like they should have just eaten that list alive (at least as i think of a list with lots of dreads and tanks). Why do you think the same cannot be made of DoB army?

They did not have a lot of laser chickens. Only 3. Also had some bad units like Kataphrons. Between Ironstone and FNP I didn't lose a single tank turn 1 and he went first - healed over half the damage dealt to a storm speeder and a dread. My return shooting phase was crippling though. List was far from optimized. The way you beat Ad mech is to spam vehicles - this is also a pretty effective strategy against DE. Infantry are obsolete at the moment with the existence of auto wound stratagem. Monsters too - totally obsolete.

**Seabass**

Xenomancers wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Seabass wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.

You know, admech aren't unbeatable, right? Like, that codex is good, but they can be beaten. How many games have you played against them? It sounds like you have been losing to a really good admech player, and in the hands of a really good player, that codex is very strong, but it's not impossible to play against.

My issue is a few stratagems that are way to powerful. I've only played against admech once and I won. Played Ironahnds with lots of tanks and dreads.
Don't you play Ultramarines?

Played blue hands - Ultramarines have a god awful chapter tactic. Having just completed painting 3 storm speeders and 3 gladiators I've been testing them out. Pretty good results so far.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Seabass wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Seabass wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.

You know, admech aren't unbeatable, right? Like, that codex is good, but they can be beaten. How many games have you played against them? It sounds like you have been losing to a really good admech player, and in the hands of a really good player, that codex is very strong, but it's not impossible to play against.

My issue is a few stratagems that are way to powerful. I've only played against admech once and I won. Played Ironahnds with lots of tanks and dreads.

That should be, under the current auspices of "admech OP" a slam dunk for them. vehicles and expensive units for them to use all of those laser chickens on, plus the 4+ strat, seems like they should have just eaten that list alive (at least as i think of a list with lots of dreads and tanks). Why do you think the same cannot be made of DoB army?
They did not have a lot of laser chickens. Only 3. Also had some bad units like Kataphrons. Between Ironstone and FNP I didn't lose a single tank turn 1 and he went first - healed over half the damage dealt to a storm speeder and a dread. My return shooting phase was crippling though. List was far from optimized. The way you beat Ad mech is to spam vehicles - this is also a pretty effective strategy against DE. Infantry are obsolete at the moment with the existence of auto wound stratagem. Monsters too - totally obsolete.

man, you are living in fear of that stratagem. you do know you can kill them right? they aren't that hard to bring down unless they literally dump a ton of CP and characters to buff them up. and your argument is "this is the way you beat them" but they are also hideously OP. I don't want to sound like too much of a dick, but this isnt checking out.

Also, gladiator tanks are good, i agree on that. they are better than people give them credit for.

**ninjafiredragon**

The way to beat ad-mech is vehicles?

Interesting, really interesting.

Especially considering the tournament winning ad mech lists from this past weekend involve 6+ las chickens. With proper buffs those things can eradicate multiple gladiators in one turn. They are the best anti vehicle units in the game.

**PenitentJake**

Xenomancers wrote:
The way you beat Ad mech is to spam vehicles

Glad to hear this. Taking plenty of vehicles against us is EXACTLY what an Admech Crusade wants you to do... Then we can smash them and use the scrap to build GLORIOUS MACHINES!

**JakeSiren**

Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.

CA should be accurate and would have been written with Be'lakor's new stats in mind, otherwise he would be still sitting around 200 points.

I'm interested to see how Be'lakor will mesh with pure Chaos Daemons, it seems like GW want to soup him with the mortal followers though. I hope that taking mortals with Chaos Daemons doesn't become mandatory in general.

**mrFickle**

So when is this book released?

**Karol**

Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.

He is very hard to impossible to kill for elite armies. I am not sure how someting like GK or Custodes are going to deal with him. Because shoting doesn't really work, and melee is not much better, and if he can use the dmg nullification on himself , which I hope he can't, single burst damage coming through is not going to work against him either.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake 799373 11161824 wrote:
Glad to hear this. Taking plenty of vehicles against us is EXACTLY what an Admech Crusade wants you to do... Then we can smash them and use the scrap to build GLORIOUS MACHINES!

I am rather sure that the use of unsanctioned materials with combination of blessed imperial tech, is a high heresy. It would be like creating xeno-human hybdrids. Regular priests can't even touch non imperial tech. They need a writ from the Fabricator General, and either be explorator or be on clandestine mission, which are kind of a heretical too, and if a priest performing them gets caught, the priesthood just feigns ignorance and claims the explorator/priest in case was a rogue all along.

**BrianDavion**

Karol wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.

He is very hard to impossible to kill for elite armies. I am not sure how someting like GK or Custodes are going to deal with him. Because shoting doesn't really work, and melee is not much better, and if he can use the dmg nullification on himself , which I hope he can't, single burst damage coming through is not going to work against him either.

none of his defences seem to work vs mortal wounds. So in theory Grey Knights could be in a good position to handle him if their new codex ups their ability to inflict mortal wounds on deamons

**Karol**

True, but using a 115/230pts squad to do 1 or 2MW to a 360pts model, with a chance to be stoped or plain fail the roll is a bit of a problem. I think.Specially as not killing him means, he will charge ignore invs, and heal himself up. Unless GW keeps the enhanced demon MW, but this is still a requirement of using 600+pts with all rolls passing, to kill a 360pts model, that moves much faster then anything GK have. And it will will only get worse when csm get updated.

And custodes can't do even do the MW thing. It is a strange costed model. Something like a baneblade or NDK seems very over costed.

Maybe it is balanced for a world where he can be pelted with 6 dark lance shots+people inside with re-rolls to hit for the raiders. Or eat 40 +4wounding auto shots from a unit that teleports.

**BrianDavion**

I think GW is more likely to BUFF the damage GKs do vs Deamons then nerf it.

as for Custodes yeah they're in a bad position but I suspect their new codex will come out with some new toys.

**Rihgu**

A Strike squad would do 4 MW with a Smite in the Tide of Escalation.

**PenitentJake**

Karol wrote:

I am rather sure that the use of unsanctioned materials with combination of blessed imperial tech, is a high heresy. It would be like creating xeno-human hybdrids. Regular priests can't even touch non imperial tech. They need a writ from the Fabricator General, and either be explorator or be on clandestine mission, which are kind of a heretical too, and if a priest performing them gets caught, the priesthood just feigns ignorance and claims the explorator/priest in case was a rogue all along.

Those who are pursuing the Tech Scavengers Agenda have clearly already applied for and received any permissions they need... Unless, of course, the controlling player chooses to create a narrative in which the Crusade may later be subjected to disciplinary action in an Admech vs Admech battle.

**Karol**

Well they nerfed the damage of loyalist marines on all their older stuff, and the only new model GK are getting is single character. But who knows. Considering the book was suppose to out months ago, same as the 1ksons one, there is practically zero rumours about either of the armies. The talk that DE are going to be OP was being done in autum last year, and Ad Mecha having powerful rules was talked about in january. So it is hard to judge, but general rule of life, I would rather be realistic about GW style of updates and then be suprised, then hope that GW does it right this time around, and be dissapointed. Done that with FAQs and CAs in 8th, and I think I grew out of hope.

**bullyboy**

If you play Grey Knights and are afraid to take on Belakor, then you are not playing Grey Knights correctly (especially thematically)!

**BrianDavion**

Karol wrote:
Well they nerfed the damage of loyalist marines on all their older stuff, and the only new model GK are getting is single character..

Ok first of all, no they didn't nerf "older marine stuff damage"
with 9th edition they buffed the damage of several weapons, such as flamers, multi-Meltas etc. this had a much more obvious impact on first born marines then it did Primaris. so you're completely wrong on that. first born marines are in a BETTER place this edition.
Secondly new stuff isn't nesscarily the big thing here, dark eldar got nothing new yet somehow are a top codex right now.

**Arachnofiend**

BrianDavion wrote:
I think GW is more likely to BUFF the damage GKs do vs Deamons then nerf it.

God I hope not. The more GK's are just an outright counterpick for daemons the more that army does not deserve to exist, frankly.

**Racerguy180**

As much as I dislike GK, they should be the counter pick to daemons. I mean it's kinda their thing.

Daemons exist, they're the counterpick to mortals. So buy your thinking daemons don't deserve to exist either?

I don't want to see any faction pigeonholed into one specific thing. But they should be really good against daemons and ok at everything else. Daemons should be really good against mortals(non psyker) and ok at everything else.

**JNAProductions**

Racerguy180 wrote:
As much as I dislike GK, they should be the counter pick to daemons. I mean it's kinda their thing.

Daemons exist, they're the counterpick to mortals. So buy your thinking daemons don't deserve to exist either?

I don't want to see any faction pigeonholed into one specific thing. But they should be really good against daemons and ok at everything else. Daemons should be really good against mortals(non psyker) and ok at everything else.

Except that makes matches rock-paper-scissors. And that's not fun for a game that lasts hours.

Ideally, GK would be good against Daemons because their preferred tactics are good against Daemons' preferred tactics, but bonuses like "Deal triple the number of mortal wounds with Smite" would be reserved for narrative play.

**Sasori**

JNAProductions wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
As much as I dislike GK, they should be the counter pick to daemons. I mean it's kinda their thing.

Daemons exist, they're the counterpick to mortals. So buy your thinking daemons don't deserve to exist either?

I don't want to see any faction pigeonholed into one specific thing. But they should be really good against daemons and ok at everything else. Daemons should be really good against mortals(non psyker) and ok at everything else.
Except that makes matches rock-paper-scissors. And that's not fun for a game that lasts hours.

Ideally, GK would be good against Daemons because their preferred tactics are good against Daemons' preferred tactics, but bonuses like "Deal triple the number of mortal wounds with Smite" would be reserved for narrative play.

Yeah, I agree. Stick that stuff in Crusade where it belongs.