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Klickor wrote:
The amount of money the veterans at my club spend on 40k still after playing for over 30years make me wonder how many kids there have to be to equal them in spending. These are grown men with 1 hobby and don't spend much on anything else. You would probably need a bunch of kids for each veteran to keep up in spending. And these guys have been doing this for longer than I have been alive. Each of them should be worth at least the same as 40 kids being burned and churned.

A single veteran is probably worth a handful of kids at a time but will keep on for decades. Probably a bad idea to not cater to them enough and focus too much on the kids. Probably harder and harder to get the kids now a days as well when you have phones,iPads and way cooler video games than 20-30 years ago to compete with. Way cheaper as well.

The GW wobble of 2012 disagrees

 Nevelon wrote:
3-5 years beats the old rumor that they expected little Timmy to last Christmas and a birthday.

Does beg the question, what to sell old players? We already have all the core units in our army. How many fringe units can they add before the bloat gets out of control? SM codex suggests that GW doesn't think there is a cap. But soaking us for a new rulebook and a codex as often as they can is solid financial planning. Leans hard into the sunk cost fallacy.

That is why Primaris exist. To answer the question of what you sell a marine player that also has all possible units.

You sell him the same thing again, but now they are new marines.

 Ordana wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
3-5 years beats the old rumor that they expected little Timmy to last Christmas and a birthday.

Does beg the question, what to sell old players? We already have all the core units in our army. How many fringe units can they add before the bloat gets out of control? SM codex suggests that GW doesn't think there is a cap. But soaking us for a new rulebook and a codex as often as they can is solid financial planning. Leans hard into the sunk cost fallacy.

That is why Primaris exist. To answer the question of what you sell a marine player that also has all possible units.

You sell him the same thing again, but now they are new marines.

Or re-cut old units and add new options. How many Tac/Dev boxes were sold when they brought back grav guns? Especially since they were broken-hot. But these days, that would just be handing money to the 3rd party people I guess.

I have the limited release TDA captain that harks back to the RT sculpt that I have no need for that says nostalgia sells.
And a second, primaris, battle company I’m working up that says “new things” also sell to vets.

I might have a problem, but it’s my major hobby and source of entertainment. Keeps me off the streets and out of trouble.

"Warhammer: Your kids will be so poor they won't have money to spend on drugs!"

Klickor wrote:
Probably a bad idea to not cater to them enough and focus too much on the kids.

See, the thing is, if you're into GW "ecosystem" for 30 years, GW doesn't have to do jack to keep you in it, sheer inertia and sunk cost will keep you going.

 Nevelon wrote:
3-5 years beats the old rumor that they expected little Timmy to last Christmas and a birthday.

Does beg the question, what to sell old players? We already have all the core units in our army. How many fringe units can they add before the bloat gets out of control? SM codex suggests that GW doesn't think there is a cap. But soaking us for a new rulebook and a codex as often as they can is solid financial planning. Leans hard into the sunk cost fallacy.

SM players are clearly treated as a class of whale consumer completely separated from the normal reality of what GW considers a consumer to be.

Cronch wrote:

Klickor wrote:
Probably a bad idea to not cater to them enough and focus too much on the kids.

See, the thing is, if you're into GW "ecosystem" for 30 years, GW doesn't have to do jack to keep you in it, sheer inertia and sunk cost will keep you going.

Back in the final 5 or so years of the Kirby era GW was royally screwed so we know thats not true. Remember all the stores being cut down to one staff member and a bunch of stores just closed completely? If I remember the financial reports the tabletop game was barely making them money. They needed to sell the license to any app developer who wanted to make a Warhammer version of whatever was popular at the time to squeek into a profitable year. Hence why we have so many garbage Warhammer app games now.

IMO GW are quickly burning through the good faith they won back with 8th and its only a matter of time before they're back to where they were.

 Gert wrote:
"Warhammer: Your kids will be so poor they won't have money to spend on drugs!"

Eldar players handing down there army’s to the next generation tho ;p

Apple fox wrote:

 Gert wrote:
"Warhammer: Your kids will be so poor they won't have money to spend on drugs!"

Eldar players handing down there army’s to the next generation tho ;p

at this point the models are old eneugh for that to have happened..

Specifically with 7th in mind, i am fine with the release schedule since it ended that horrible edition as fast as it did. If anything I wish 7th had only been 1 year instead of 3. But I do think 4 years is the shortest an edition should go. 8th was a bit weird since they released the indexs right off the bat but even with that in mind I think some factions barely had their codex in hand before it was time to move to 9th. Hell, my orkz got our new campaign book shortly before the new edition dropped.

Currently, if I get to play regularly, GW is essentially adding stuff the the game for me whenever I'm about to get bored with the game. My main criticism is that they take too long to ramp up an edition before we actually get to play the whole thing.

I mean, just browse dakka for half an hour - more half the complaints are about issues that are related to codices, either because a codex cannot keep pace with the updated ones or they still contain major problems from 8th like buff stacking or aura castles.

Essentially, even if there was not virus and politics, they would still have taken almost a year to get all armies into 9th, and now it looks like they are going to take at least a year and half.

By that time we are halfway trough the editions if they keep their timetables for the next edition. The time to actually play the completed 9th edition will be very short for many players.

In the end, one of the biggest problems is still books. If the rules were available digitally, you wouldn't need to jump to a whole new edition to fix central parts to the rules, and you wouldn't need to make a full codex release to tweak a few units. There should not be a need for a new edition or codex by default.

But I agree with Semper, 8th edition ended much too early. I didn't even manage to play each plague company once from WotS before I had the new codex.

So I guess four years seems like a good compromise of the game not getting stale without feeling rushed to get the next new thing all the time.

I would actually prefer a revised edition 9.5 at the 3 year mark and then 2 years more of it.
After 3 years you have a clear idea of the problems with core rules, so a second edition of the BRB doesn't hurt.

If the core rules are good, there's no need for any edition change. You could have an edition last for 10 years.

If you need new material, there's tonnes of stuff they could make. Actual decent campaign books, scenario books, alternate game modes, loads of stuff.

The amount of money they make with starter sets and books (both new products to sell when a new edition drops) makes it unlikely they'll change the release cycle anytime soon.

Who wants to bet that in mid 2023 we'll have 10th ed, despite having some codices come out in late 2022?
Still 15 codices to be updated to 9th plus another 6 SM supplements (7 with Black Templars). One a month means late 2022 to complete the cycle.

You can release "starter set" style boxes at any time during an edition. D&D has three starter sets at the moment.

Now with campaign book series, they can drip feed rules/models and tweak codexs on the fly.

The down side is that if you want to have the full rules for your army, you might need to drag 3-5 books to the table, and might only need a page or two for some of them. And they are $30-$50 a pop. Plus maybe a WD or two.

I think that's the plan for the lack of epub versions of the books and how they want you to rely on their app/Warhammer+. Because when you buy the book and get the code you have access to the information on your app which means you don't have to bring the books with you(except maybe the main codex).

Ultimately I think the issue is that the books appear to be a major source of revenue for GW which means they'll want to churn those things out as quickly as possible.

My two bits, for what it's worth.

GW really missed the mark with 9th edition codex schedule. Too many changes were made to the Core rules that affected too many factions in too great a way to justify this trickle of content in this edition. They had a great thing that one time they did indexes, remember that? Imagine if they had done that at the start of 9th. 2W marines across the board, instead of waiting for codexes to come out. What a time to be alive that would have been./s

To prevent this kind of issue, they need to release ALL of the codices at the start of a new edition. THEN they can start the release schedule for the new rules and models. Divide the year up in halves and each half gets a story book like Charadon. Releases would have to be staggered similar to how they are now, just with focus on codexes that havent had new units/sculpts taking priority. Throw in some random limited or gimmicky stuff every 4 months to keep them collecting (like Gaunts Ghosts). Starting in the 4th quarter to boost sales report numbers, something like this:

October - Imperium and Xenos Boxset, 2 new units, 2 new sculpts of new units Story Book
November - Imperium and Chaos with Boxset, 2 new units, 2 new sculpts of new units
December - Xenos and Chaos Boxset, 2 new units, 2 new sculpts of new units,
January - Imperium and Xenos Boxset, 2 new units, 2 new sculpts of new units,Gimmick
February - Imperium and Chaos Boxset, 2 new units, 2 new sculpts of new units
March - Xenos and Chaos Boxset, 2 new units, 2 new sculpts of new units
April - Imperium and Xenos Boxset, 2 new units, 2 new sculpts of new units, Story Book
May - Imperium and Chaos Boxset, 2 new units, 2 new sculpts of new units, Gimmick
June - Xenos and Chaos Boxset, 2 new units, 2 new sculpts of new units
July - Imperium and Xenos Boxset, 2 new units, 2 new sculpts of new units,
August - Imperium and Chaos Boxset, 2 new units, 2 new sculpts of new units
September - Xenos and Chaos Boxset, 2 new units, 2 new sculpts of new units, Gimmick

Repeat for a few years while you work on a new edition. I feel like five years is a good lifecycle for an edition. You could vary if the boxsets are battlefield sized or kill team sized. You could have boxsets that feature two new hq choices and nothing else. Boxsets that come with new technical paints, or new colors. Or themed for new chapters/dynasties etc... The possibilities are endless what you can do with a little creativity with just a two army focus and a little ingenuity.

 Da Boss wrote:
If the core rules are good, there's no need for any edition change. You could have an edition last for 10 years.

If you need new material, there's tonnes of stuff they could make. Actual decent campaign books, scenario books, alternate game modes, loads of stuff.

100% agree. A good set of core rules without any conceptual flaws does not need any change at all.
Even if you run into the issue of the game getting stale, codices, points and missions are sufficient tools to shake up the game and make it interesting again.

GW could release an Indomitus style box and the combo of new models+massive discount versus the inevitable RRP will see it fly off the shelves. You don't need a new edition for that.

I think GW are realising these "get your army book and models early" boxes are sort of the same thing - but with some debate on how much (if any) of a discount should be included.

I think the problem is partly that GW can never commercially leave things alone. 8th was balanced (?) for... 3 months between the late April FAQ and the SM Codex release in August. 3 months in 3 years isn't the best ratio.

When I was younger this pace would have been absolutely fine.
One codex a month? What am I going to do the other three weeks of the month?

But now this pace is lightning quick. "Dark Eldar got their release? When? Oh snap, since when were Sisters getting a codex?"

I don't buy any printed publications now, I played about 3 games with my 8th edition Blood Angels codex, it's just not worth it.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
When I was younger this pace would have been absolutely fine.
One codex a month? What am I going to do the other three weeks of the month?

But now this pace is lightning quick. "Dark Eldar got their release? When? Oh snap, since when were Sisters getting a codex?"

I don't buy any printed publications now, I played about 3 games with my 8th edition Blood Angels codex, it's just not worth it.

when I first got in the game I buy my first codex for like $26and I think the supplement was $15.Now two books for just the one army is $140, it looks better but I don’t think they are worth that.
It’s also more expensive than D&D books are here, and much more than any of the other game books I buy.
The cost is prohibitive and the rules still to meh for the price the game is pushed at to really be satisfied for myself.

Buying supplements for rules is just not worth it.
Buy a book only if you like the full package. If it is a dex for you faction then you are going to use all of it and it is a good buy, but buying a book for half a dozen pages? Yeah, not doing that.

Even when I buy a codex I only use a dozen pages.
Already read the fluff. Already seen the art. Don't care for half the datasheets.

 Ordana wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
3-5 years beats the old rumor that they expected little Timmy to last Christmas and a birthday.

Does beg the question, what to sell old players? We already have all the core units in our army. How many fringe units can they add before the bloat gets out of control? SM codex suggests that GW doesn't think there is a cap. But soaking us for a new rulebook and a codex as often as they can is solid financial planning. Leans hard into the sunk cost fallacy.

That is why Primaris exist. To answer the question of what you sell a marine player that also has all possible units.

You sell him the same thing again, but now they are new marines.

I didn't fall for that trap.
I have a single, promo Primaris mini in my cabinet and nothing else will be added from that line to my collection. Nice try though.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
"Warhammer: Your kids will be so poor they won't have money to spend on drugs!"

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
If the core rules are good, there's no need for any edition change. You could have an edition last for 10 years.

If you need new material, there's tonnes of stuff they could make. Actual decent campaign books, scenario books, alternate game modes, loads of stuff.

100% agree. A good set of core rules without any conceptual flaws does not need any change at all.
Even if you run into the issue of the game getting stale, codices, points and missions are sufficient tools to shake up the game and make it interesting again.

Edition change was never about improving the game. It's a dishonest tax for veteran players who still want to play the game at tournaments or at GW shops.

The last time I played 40K with pure edition rules was during 5th. Nowadays I just play Oldhammer with custom rules. Nearly all of the books that GW cranked out since then were of zero value for me.

Sometimes it feels as if GW was not making a game, or making new stuff. They just create system that create problems to the players, then are slow updating the problems they created themselfs and expect that the way to fixing this is just buying another 2000pts army that works, or buying in to another of their games. Take knights for example. Being shot from behind terrain, while not being able to fire back, is a horrible thing. Should never exist as a rule. Till now GW had at least 2 times when they could even updated it. But it feels as if GW only cared for the faction they already released this edition, and cared zero for all the other factions. And it works both ways. Faction too good with old rules, GW ignores it. Faction horrible with old rules, the same level of attention.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
If the core rules are good, there's no need for any edition change. You could have an edition last for 10 years.

If you need new material, there's tonnes of stuff they could make. Actual decent campaign books, scenario books, alternate game modes, loads of stuff.

100% agree. A good set of core rules without any conceptual flaws does not need any change at all.
Even if you run into the issue of the game getting stale, codices, points and missions are sufficient tools to shake up the game and make it interesting again.

Even then edition changes could be performed through Chapter Approved. An edition doesn't have to be locked down into a big release date especially since CA is a yearly thing anyway.

 Jidmah wrote:

100% agree. A good set of core rules without any conceptual flaws does not need any change at all.
Even if you run into the issue of the game getting stale, codices, points and missions are sufficient tools to shake up the game and make it interesting again.

But it is the easiest way to make people rebuy large chunks or even the whole of their collections. Why wait for each army players to redo their armies till the codex comes out, possibly in a year or two, when you can just say unit x, y and z are bad now, and because they were the core of the army, now go buy units a, b and c who are the new thing now. On top of that we once again switched the power from melta to plasma or plasma to melta.

If someone tried to have a semi valid army for marines in 8th and now in 9th, they have went through at least 3 total revamps of how the army works.
Even for my army, which had no model updates in 8th and 9th, the army went from never take anything in termintor armour, to take 10 paladins, to avoid strikes like the plague.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
If the core rules are good, there's no need for any edition change. You could have an edition last for 10 years.

If you need new material, there's tonnes of stuff they could make. Actual decent campaign books, scenario books, alternate game modes, loads of stuff.

100% agree. A good set of core rules without any conceptual flaws does not need any change at all.
Even if you run into the issue of the game getting stale, codices, points and missions are sufficient tools to shake up the game and make it interesting again.

Even then edition changes could be performed through Chapter Approved. An edition doesn't have to be locked down into a big release date especially since CA is a yearly thing anyway.

Depends. If you introduce a change that affects many rules and multiple phases, you might as well release a new edition.

An example would be a change like making charge moves part of regular movement - this would affect almost every part of the game and errata'ing it in via CA is not really a good solution.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

100% agree. A good set of core rules without any conceptual flaws does not need any change at all.
Even if you run into the issue of the game getting stale, codices, points and missions are sufficient tools to shake up the game and make it interesting again.

But it is the easiest way to make people rebuy large chunks or even the whole of their collections. Why wait for each army players to redo their armies till the codex comes out, possibly in a year or two, when you can just say unit x, y and z are bad now, and because they were the core of the army, now go buy units a, b and c who are the new thing now. On top of that we once again switched the power from melta to plasma or plasma to melta.

If someone tried to have a semi valid army for marines in 8th and now in 9th, they have went through at least 3 total revamps of how the army works.
Even for my army, which had no model updates in 8th and 9th, the army went from never take anything in termintor armour, to take 10 paladins, to avoid strikes like the plague.

Yeah, no. The only models I bought during 9th were the ones released new or some that I liked.

It's not 7th anymore, where GW intentionally destroys all models even remotely competitive. You only get screwed over if your "collection" is a 2000 point meta-aligned army.

Okey, but most armies don't or didn't have the luxury of something like the Inari rule set to carry some weaker models. If in 8th you build your BAs the wrong way, you were not having much fun playing. 8th is the same, you are not seeing many intercessor heavy lists. Stuff that was popular or obligatory, like primaris tanks or eliminators is not used at all in 9th. And because for a lot of factions the armies are pre build, there isn't much someone can do to adapt. specially if GW decided your army to both bad in 9th and not updated.

What is a GSC or knight player suppose to do in 9th? To a degree it doesn't even matter, if he bought a meta or non meta army in 8th.

Plus it is easy to say that the collection isn't invalidated, when your, as in your yours, but as in someones, army sits at the 50% win rates. Doubt there is many custodes players, sad that they bought all those jetbikes to make cpts.

The real question you need to ask is.. if Games-workshop purposely leaves out improvements in the core of the game and its rules just so it has an excuse to release new editions in the future.