Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
While I agree with you on the general premise of this, I think I have to disagree with Orks being an army that's been heavily supported by GW, especially over Nids. I think Orks are clearly a fan favorite when it comes to lore and enjoying them, I don't think the army adoption is really anywhere near top 5 armies. Support wise, they had a pretty heavy drought with a Codex in 4th until 7th edition right? Meanwhile Nids on the other hand were getting range updates and codexes for nearly every single edition, only really missing one in 7th. If anything, I would say Nids were significantly more popular than Orks since they got so much more support.

Orks were part of the AOBR starter in 5th and got plastic storm boyz, nobz, gretchin, battlewagon, deff dread, kanz and stompa during that edition. The three planes arrived in late 5th/early 6th. 7th had the mek wave with nauts, MANz, SAG, pain boy, mini mek, flash gits, Grukk, mek gunz and the wazzbom. 8th had six buggies and later Da Red Gobbo and Thrakka+Makari.

Yeah, the rules were MIA or garbage tier, but orks were never lacking model releases.

But yeah, nids fit more in the first tier, I didn't realize how many kits they have gotten over the years.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I find it odd that when trying to extrapolate what Eldar will get, you look at the Ork release rather than the Dark Eldar release (or lack thereof).

proably because Orks are an aging army with a lot of old finecast. and CWE are the same, meanwhile Dark Eldar as I understand it got a major revamp around 5th and are mostly plastic.

Outside of characters, the only finecast orks have are kommadoz and tank bustas.

hmm I thought they had more then that. granted they DO need a deffcopta release :(

Well sonny have I got news for you!

 Gert wrote:
Well sonny have I got news for you!

ohh is it finally happening?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/10/warhammer-preview-online-octarius-mission-briefing/
Down the bottom.

 Gert wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/10/warhammer-preview-online-octarius-mission-briefing/
Down the bottom.

thank god, it's been absurd how long Ork players basicly where stuck with metal or finding old ABR ones

Legit almost made me consider redoing Orks after I've just sold my old stuff. But alas I've got enough 40k and have started AoS and LotR recently. Don't need another project I won't finish.

 Gert wrote:
Legit almost made me consider redoing Orks after I've just sold my old stuff. But alas I've got enough 40k and have started AoS and LotR recently. Don't need another project I won't finish.

I've got a small number of orks, the pack with Ghaz and Ragnar and some old stuff from ABR, not painted yet but I might get around to painting it, since we know Black templars are coming if they came out with a new Orks vs black templars box I'd buy and paint but thats the only way I'm getting more Orks

 vipoid wrote:
So enjoy your 9th edition "tsunami" of 1 redone HQ, I guess.

I think Eldrad passing over the Rubicon Primaris will be a pretty neat story element.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
So enjoy your 9th edition "tsunami" of 1 redone HQ, I guess.

I think Eldrad passing over the Rubicon Primaris will be a pretty neat story element.

Don’t even joke about that!

I think a lot of the pressure for GW comes from 3d printing. there are a lot of amazing scupters out there pumping out alternative guard, marine ork and necron stuff. There are quite a few Eldar or "space elf" kits out there that put the current GW lineup to shame (not hard) I think one of the reason Dark eldar didn't get a better glowup is that there are not a ton of 3rd party good stls out there for them. the army already looks very good and they have a high level of detail so its more difficult to outclass the gw sculpts. The only real reason with DE to 3d print is saving money or models being out of stock and again its hard to find STLs for counts as models

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I think a lot of the pressure for GW comes from 3d printing. there are a lot of amazing scupters out there pumping out alternative guard, marine ork and necron stuff. There are quite a few Eldar or "space elf" kits out there that put the current GW lineup to shame (not hard) I think one of the reason Dark eldar didn't get a better glowup is that there are not a ton of 3rd party good stls out there for them. the army already looks very good and they have a high level of detail so its more difficult to outclass the gw sculpts. The only real reason with DE to 3d print is saving money or models being out of stock and again its hard to find STLs for counts as models

If GW has any sense at all, they've realized that the demand for 3D-printed models and STLs from fly-by-night operations is solely driven by the perceived poor value of the range they offer, and since legally quashing anyone who wants to make a space orc or space elf is impossible, they're better off reclaiming their market share by improving their own offering.

I don't imagine plastic Kriegers are going to make sales of totally-not-Krieg STLs or Atlantic's Grognards flatline overnight, but people who turned to those options to avoid expensive FW resin might reconsider, even at GW's prices for plastic minis.

I think it might be the point where GW is doing some proper range refreshes for the factions that need it. Necrons, SoB, and now Orks seem to have loads of people happy with the updates and additions GW has made and I would be surprised if this trend didn't continue.
Obviously, Space Marines are Space Marines so no change there but the other factions that have been released so far (Drukhari, Admech, Death Guard) have pretty up-to-date or mostly plastic ranges so loads of additions to them wasn't something I was expecting.

 Gert wrote:
I think it might be the point where GW is doing some proper range refreshes for the factions that need it. Necrons, SoB, and now Orks seem to have loads of people happy with the updates and additions GW has made and I would be surprised if this trend didn't continue.
Obviously, Space Marines are Space Marines so no change there but the other factions that have been released so far (Drukhari, Admech, Death Guard) have pretty up-to-date or mostly plastic ranges so loads of additions to them wasn't something I was expecting.

Don't worry, Dark Eldar players, we culled your entire HQ range and thus no longer need to update it. This way, we can put all our effort into updating factions that actually matter.

No need to thank us.

~GW

What HQ's were culled? All the characters and HQ's are still there from last edition. Are you talking about how Archons can't take Dark Lances or something? Or do you mean Vect who got axed in like 6th Edition?
To further this point, every single basic HQ is plastic and only one character is resin.

 Gert wrote:
What HQ's were culled? All the characters and HQ's are still there from last edition. Are you talking about how Archons can't take Dark Lances or something? Or do you mean Vect who got axed in like 6th Edition?
To further this point, every single basic HQ is plastic and only one character is resin.

Drukhari used to have a lot more HQ options, both special characters, and also generic 'secondary' HQs. If you want to make a Kabalite detachment without named characters, you need to take two Archons, which is weird- historically you could take a Archon and a Dracon as their second. It's more than just Vect who's gone, there were a bunch of other named characters too.

Drukhari got nice rules but in terms of range expansion they do seem to have drawn the short straw thus far.

Were the generic secondary HQ's functionally different from the primaries like how Lt's and Captains give different buffs or were they just a worse but cheaper version of the primary? For me, it would be about redundancy. For example, the AM Company Commander is good and worth taking multiple of whereas the Platoon Commander wastes elite slots that can be filled with things like Ogryn or Special Weapon squads. The PC is cheaper (I think) but is just worse and wastes valuable force org slots.
Also, just personal preference but I prefer less named characters. I think one of the biggest problems with SM is the fact that a single subfaction has more named characters than most if not all of the armies in the game.

 Gert wrote:
What HQ's were culled? All the characters and HQ's are still there from last edition.

Yeah, that's because DE's HQs were culled pre-8th. Hence, they didn't even make it into Legends.


As for which ones were culled:
- Archon on Jetbike
- Archon on Skyboard
- Haemonculus on Jetbike
- Haemonculus on Skyboard
(You can count these as wargear if you want but GW has been treating HQs on bikes as being entirely different codex entries in the last couple of editions. Either way, these options no longer exist in any form.)
- Dracon
- Haemonculus Ancient
- Vect
- Baron Sathonyx
- Duke Sliscus
- Lady Malys
- Kheradruakh, the Decapitator

(They also lost Trueborn and Bloodbrides from the non-HQ section. Bloodbrides are represented reasonably well by the current rules but the current "Trueborn" are nothing like what they used to be.)

 Gert wrote:
To further this point, every single basic HQ is plastic and only one character is resin.

I'm just going to quote myself again:

 vipoid wrote:
Don't worry, Dark Eldar players, we culled your entire HQ range and thus no longer need to update it. This way, we can put all our effort into updating factions that actually matter.

No need to thank us.

~GW

 Gert wrote:
Were the generic secondary HQ's functionally different from the primaries like how Lt's and Captains give different buffs or were they just a worse but cheaper version of the primary? For me, it would be about redundancy.

You realise that "worse but cheaper version of the primary" is *exactly* what SM Lieutenants were pre-8th, right? It's literally only since 8th that they've actually been differentiated. GW could have done the exact same thing with the DE Lieutenants.

So why is it fine for Space Marines to keep their "redundant" mini-HQs (in an HQ section with more entries than the entire DE codex) but not okay for Dark Eldar to keep theirs?

 Gert wrote:

Also, just personal preference but I prefer less named characters. I think one of the biggest problems with SM is the fact that a single subfaction has more named characters than most if not all of the armies in the game.

I'm actually entirely in agreement with you on this point.

I would be ecstatic if DE didn't receive any special characters and instead got several new generic HQs. We could have a Mandrake HQ, a Scourge HQ, a Dracon HQ, a Haemonculus HQ, not to mention HQs with Wings/Jetbikes/Skyboards so that an army that supposedly thrives off mobility doesn't have 0 mobility options in its HQ slot.

The problem is that since the Dark Eldar was culled, they have received nothing. None of the removed characters/HQs have been returned, no replacement special characters have been added, and no replacement generic characters have been added. It's now been 11 years since Dark Eldar received an actual new unit (not just another bloody resculpt of an existing unit).

They've spent the last 3 editions with just 3 generic HQs in their entire codex. And because their wargear section was also axed, all three of those characters now do the same bloody thing. Which DE HQ is your favourite? The melee HQ, the melee HQ or (just to mix things up) the other melee HQ?

How many of those units had models?



Lt's didn't exist before 8th Edition. You can't differentiate a unit that doesn't exist. Were the Drukhari Secondary HQ's just cheap bad versions of their Primary counterparts or did they get anything different at all?



The only thing I would say needs an HQ option is a Succubus on Skyboard/Jetbike to go alongside the rest of the Wych Cult roster.


When the units they have work perfectly fine they don't need new units added "just because", that's how you get Space Marines.

 Gert wrote:

Spoiler:

 vipoid wrote:

Yeah, that's because DE's HQs were culled pre-8th. Hence, they didn't even make it into Legends.


As for which ones were culled:
- Archon on Jetbike
- Archon on Skyboard
- Haemonculus on Jetbike
- Haemonculus on Skyboard
(You can count these as wargear if you want but GW has been treating HQs on bikes as being entirely different codex entries in the last couple of editions. Either way, these options no longer exist in any form.)
- Dracon
- Haemonculus Ancient
- Vect
- Baron Sathonyx
- Duke Sliscus
- Lady Malys
- Kheradruakh, the Decapitator

(They also lost Trueborn and Bloodbrides from the non-HQ section. Bloodbrides are represented reasonably well by the current rules but the current "Trueborn" are nothing like what they used to be.)

How many of those units had models?

Vect, and the Dracon Hence my initial statement - it's really easy to keep Dark Eldar's HQ section "up to date" when you just delete everything else because you can't be arsed making models for them.

 Gert wrote:
Lt's didn't exist before 8th Edition.

Lieutenants did exist before 8th, they just had a different name.

I'm willing to accept a change of name if it means keeping those HQs. Oh wait, once again that option is only available to Space Marines.

 Gert wrote:

When the units they have work perfectly fine they don't need new units added "just because", that's how you get Space Marines.

"If your codex has been shafted and your existing range is utter garbage then you're never allowed to have new models ever again, otherwise your threadbare army will somehow instantly become the most bloated army in the history of 40k."

What a fantastic philosophy.

I mean the existing range isn't garbage. I'm throughly enjoying my Drukhari army and they've been a different challenge to painting Guard, Marines and Chaos.
And again, Lt's didn't exist before 8th in any way. 8th Edition broke up the SM Command Squad and made one of the Veterans into a Lt to go alongside Primaris Lt's.
You've still not answered my question about the Secondary HQ's being worse cheap versions of the Primaries with no difference in equipment or abilities.

Eldar are too proud for new sculpts. They insist the sculpts they've always had are the best sculpts that can ever be.

 Gert wrote:
I mean the existing range isn't garbage. I'm throughly enjoying my Drukhari army and they've been a different challenge to painting Guard, Marines and Chaos.
And again, Lt's didn't exist before 8th in any way. 8th Edition broke up the SM Command Squad and made one of the Veterans into a Lt to go alongside Primaris Lt's.
You've still not answered my question about the Secondary HQ's being worse cheap versions of the Primaries with no difference in equipment or abilities.

It sounds like you haven't had them for that long. For somebody like Vipoid, who had options that were taken away and got nothing in its place, this is frustrating. I don't think it takes a ton of empathy to get that, especially as somebody who has the army and could look and say "oh, that would be so cool to get that back!", either with rules or ideally with new models.

I did expect somewhat more from the DE release; I had hoped for the return of generic lesser HQ's- ie the Dracon, the Hekatrix, and the Haemonculus (what we now call a Haemonculus is the equivalent of what we used to call the Haemonculus Ancient). I would have liked these back; I would still like them back, and I do think they have value.

Fixing the transport capacities of Venoms and Raiders made the absence of Jetbike or Skyboard HQ's less of an issue. Both Jetbikes and Skyboards are Cult specific vehicles, so non-wyches riding them always kinda rubbed me the wrong way, though I am admittedly an exception; most DE players have no fluff issue with this, and they do want those options back.

Sathonyx and Sliscuss I totally want back- they were really cool characters, though it's true that they never had models. I like Malys too, but she needs to be talked about separately from the others because the model that represents Yvraine would have been a perfect Malys model (and still is); many even hypothesize that the model was originally supposed to be Malys, and they changed it before release. This rumour is so popular that there may actually proof floating around in an interview somewhere that it is true.

Kheradruakh the decapitator also never had a model, but I want one like crazy- he was a four armed Mandrake- how cool is that?

But what I will say about Mandrake, Scourge and Hellion HQ's as generalists: they are super edge cases. Drukhari society is all about appearing to conform to the hierarchy until you can strike without notice to advance your place within that hierarchy. It would be difficult for a Scourge to get anyone except other Scourges to follow them- same with Mandrakes and Hellions. And since none of these are troops, the value of an HQ from that camp is diminished.

As for the new dex; it didn't give me everything I wanted as noted above. Would I have preferred Master Archons Succubi and Haemonculi to be actual units instead of just upgrades? Yes, absolutely. Would I have preferred Trueborn, Bloodbrides and Haemoxcytes to be actual units instead of upgrades? Yes absolutely.

But the fact that I would have Preferred that does not prevent me from appreciating the value of the upgrades. I do recognize that by creating a Master Archon upgrade, they did effectively give us two levels of generic command, even though they didn't do it with an extra datasheet and a model to represent it. Similarly, I do recognize the value of Trueborn, Bloodbrides and Haemoxcytes.

Note: There is also a DE character who should have had a Blackstone Fortress model. She stole a ship from Vect; the ship is a card in the game, and the character is represented by the things she can allow her ship to do on behalf of the other characters, but they stopped short of actually giving her a model, which I found very frustrating.

PenitentJake wrote:

Sathonyx and Sliscuss I totally want back- they were really cool characters, though it's true that they never had models. I like Malys too, but she needs to be talked about separately from the others because the model that represents Yvraine would have been a perfect Malys model (and still is); many even hypothesize that the model was originally supposed to be Malys, and they changed it before release. This rumour is so popular that there may actually proof floating around in an interview somewhere that it is true.

I've definitely heard the rumour about the Yvraine model initially being Lady Malys but then being changed at the last minute.

Is there artwork of Lady Malys anywhere? Would be interesting to compare it to the "Yvraine" model.

PenitentJake wrote:

Kheradruakh the decapitator also never had a model, but I want one like crazy- he was a four armed Mandrake- how cool is that?

But what I will say about Mandrake, Scourge and Hellion HQ's as generalists: they are super edge cases.

Minor point - I didn't ask for a Hellion HQ (I would think a Skyboard-Succubus would serve this role).

Regardless, I will disagree about these things being niche.

The splitting of DE into 3 subfactions (plus Blades for Hire) means that each faction is locked into a single generic HQ. Hence, even a couple of Blades for Hire HQs would greatly expand the options available. Further:

- The existence of Kheradruakh means Mandrake HQs do exist, so a non-named one is not remotely unreasonable. What's more, there are several niches the DE HQ slot is lacking that a Mandrake HQ could help with. One being a ranged HQs (since existing DE HQs have had almost all their wargear stripped away), though perhaps a more interesting niche would be as a proper support HQ - perhaps the closest DE could get to a psyker (likely focussing on mortal wounds and movement/redeploy abilities). A final alternative would be as a 'loner' assassin HQ, perhaps with an ability making it harder to target (so that it can move more freely, rather than having to hug friendly units). I'm just spitballing ideas, obviously, but the point is that the DE HQ section is not remotely well-rounded and basically every niche other than 'melee beatstick' is still open.

- A Scourge HQ, meanwhile, could provide some out-of-transport mobility, a buff for Scourge squads, and would perhaps be the best option for an actual shooty HQ.

Of the two, the Scourge HQ could probably be represented by an Archon . . . but this would require GW to stop treating Scourges as being entirely different from other DE units and actually give the Archon some options back.

PenitentJake wrote:
Both Jetbikes and Skyboards are Cult specific vehicles, so non-wyches riding them always kinda rubbed me the wrong way,
...
Drukhari society is all about appearing to conform to the hierarchy until you can strike without notice to advance your place within that hierarchy. It would be difficult for a Scourge to get anyone except other Scourges to follow them- same with Mandrakes and Hellions. And since none of these are troops, the value of an HQ from that camp is diminished.

There's a sad trend wherein the fluff for other races informs what their units can do, yet the fluff for Dark Eldar only ever seems to inform what their units can't do.

PenitentJake wrote:

But the fact that I would have Preferred that does not prevent me from appreciating the value of the upgrades. I do recognize that by creating a Master Archon upgrade, they did effectively give us two levels of generic command, even though they didn't do it with an extra datasheet and a model to represent it. Similarly, I do recognize the value of Trueborn, Bloodbrides and Haemoxcytes.

See, if this was early-8th I might agree with you. However, at this point it just feels like a slap in the face. They've had 2 entire editions since they stripped the DE codex to the bone and they've *still* given them no new units.

They spent most of 8th upgrading plastic Space Marines to plastic Space Marines. Then they started 9th with yet more Space Marines. And still DE get 0 new units. The fact that they are still presenting DE with table-scraps, and half-arsed table-scraps at that, is nothing but an insult.

PenitentJake wrote:

Note: There is also a DE character who should have had a Blackstone Fortress model. She stole a ship from Vect; the ship is a card in the game, and the character is represented by the things she can allow her ship to do on behalf of the other characters, but they stopped short of actually giving her a model, which I found very frustrating.

I've said it elsewhere but I'm increasingly convinced that GW have no clue what to do with any of the Eldar factions (and don't care enough to give the matter serious thought), and so are basically just treading water until they work up the courage to properly reboot the setting and turn the 3 Eldar factions into a single Ynnari faction.

 catbarf wrote:
If GW has any sense at all, they've realized that the demand for 3D-printed models and STLs from fly-by-night operations is solely driven by the perceived poor value of the range they offer, and since legally quashing anyone who wants to make a space orc or space elf is impossible, they're better off reclaiming their market share by improving their own offering.

I don't imagine plastic Kriegers are going to make sales of totally-not-Krieg STLs or Atlantic's Grognards flatline overnight, but people who turned to those options to avoid expensive FW resin might reconsider, even at GW's prices for plastic minis.

Completely agree, I think GW has realized their nailbat in the form of lawyers is becoming less useful with the number of 3rd party shops that make legally distinct but also 'counts as XYZ' and the fly-by-night recasters crowd. Their competition so to speak can spring up faster than they can bludgeon them. So now they have to establish a quality product with value so people actually buy it instead of seeking out literally any other option than a 20 year old fine-cast mishapen miniature.

While GW still has many business practices that a lot of us don't care for, it is a good sign again that the company is making long term investments vice entirely short term quarterly profit chasing. I am strongly in favor of them revamping their aging model lines, putting out a quality product and enticing customers with value of the physical product (instead of just the value in the rules). I'm sure there will still be power boosts for poor selling models though

@Vipoid- thanks for the responses.

You've made a believer outta me with the guns for hire HQs.

I keep hoping that it's not that GW doesn't know what to do with Eldar, but that they're waiting for the right time, and that this edition is it.

It's hope, and many would say that makes me naive, but it's what I got.

 vipoid wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Lt's didn't exist before 8th Edition.

Lieutenants did exist before 8th, they just had a different name.

I'm willing to accept a change of name if it means keeping those HQs. Oh wait, once again that option is only available to Space Marines.

before 8th edition Marines used to be able to buy a captain or a chapter master, which was basicly an upgraded captain with better stats and an orbital strike. we lost that the the 1.0 8th edition codex, and it became a upgrade we can buy with CPs in 9th edition. so no, marine leuitenants never existed before 8th. completely differant things.

Rogue Trader has Marine Lieutenant's as a model although I have no idea if they had rules for them.

The orks make me hopeful for a lot of old things, like genestealers. If they got resculpts i'd buy a cult army immediately. The cadians cancel out all of that positivity though.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Rogue Trader has Marine Lieutenant's as a model although I have no idea if they had rules for them.

yeah leuitenants went out once the modern fluff was created and only recently re-created in 8th edition