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Really quite disappointed in the no tanzgors in rhinos thing. I feel the 10 in a rhino would have been a deeply solid backbone for the army.

That being said, I still think they have a reasonable place. A tzaangor bomb of 20 + shaman is still a good DMC target. Tossing it up turn one with a brayhorn and throwing down weaver on it stands a decent charge chance and will be irritating as heck for many opponents to screen. It isn't that many points and if it gets the charge off will eat a lot of screening units, leaving the opponents very vulnerable to psychic powers, since screens are a vital defense. You can also string them for big time move-blocking. 8 in rerollable is a little less than 70%~. There aren't a ton of guns that love shooting into T4 4++

In general I think tzaangors mostly suffer from mobility which rhinos would have solved. They aren't amazing in melee, but they are totally enough to kill what you need them to. 10 unsupported do well into a squad of wyches, into a unit of sisters, kill any generic small objective holder. They don't do the best into intercessors, but they will steal a point from them on the charge (kill 1 intercessor on the charge, lose 3 gors to the crack back, 7 vs 4).

I think it is definitely worth looking at forgeworld options. We have good buffs for volcoms (for shooting they hardcore outdo hellbrutes) and even fire raptors feel like a reasonable consideration.

I agree on feeling luke warm on rubrics. I really want to like them, but AP-2 shooting just doesn't feel great. They feel just on the cusp; if they were just a bit cheaper, if all is dust had gotten some kind of meaningful improvement...heck even if the aspiring sorc got a full bolter I'd feel better.

The flamer might have some play; having run sisters ret squads with heavy flamers, they felt very strong. You're trading +2 strength (which can be buffed) for -1 AP. No max shots strat but you're on a much tougher platform and you have obsec, plus of course the psychic power. Probably reasonable for the 25 extra points. I think 2-3 squads in rhinos moving up the board have legit play; it notably ticks up their output (roughly 100% increase before buffs) and, perhaps just as important, provides a strong defense against charges which is a vulnerability of theirs. That squad now kills roughly 4 intercessors between psychic and shooting if you give them a start or psychic buff, which isn't bad for 125 points. I think they're probably the best thing in a rhino we can do.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 xeen wrote:
Wow Admec and Dark Eldar Strats must really have broken the expectations of Strats if 1CP for 5 additional S6 -3ap shots against hoards (many of whom would be wounded on 2's) is considered bad. I mean, yea it is not double shoot or even remotely comparable to Admech non-sense, but I would not call this bad.

The "average" conversion rate for a strat is 1CP for 2 MW if the conditions are met. 5 shots at S6 AP3 1D is about that on average in that it averages in ~2 more wounds inflicted against your likely target profile, but the condition is against a horde, i.e. something that's going to be very cheap. 1CP to kill 10-20 points of models is not a great conversion rate. I can see there might be times when it makes sense to use it on a single cannon, but it's very much in the "this exists, but if you completely forgot about it for your entire 40k career, it really wouldn't matter" category of strats.

I am not saying it is super good, and yea by mathhammer, it is probably not the most efficient. But against something like admec, where you need to cut those skitairi units down as much as possible, I think it will have a use. I mean when you use it on a Soulreaper (which is one weapon) it becomes 10 shots, and hits on 3's, wounds on 2's and even if they have a 2+ save, it is down to 5+. And under these circumstances you would probably use the +1 to hit power on them, so hitting on 2's (re-roll ones with Exalted), then would on 2's. It is not hard to imagine a decent roll that sees like 7-8 skitari down. And for them that is like losing 20 something shots.

Yes the math says on average it will kill two more models. However, for 1 CP, having the ability to potentially take down 5 more with a semi-decent roll I think will be worth it under several circumstances. Again, I am not saying this is a must use every game (like the 3MW causing strat which will probably be used every psychic phase), but I think completely forgetting about it is a mistake, and there will be times you are glad you have it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also think rubrics are probably a point to much. I can foresee a competitive list with maybe 3 units of 5 SoT, 1 unit of 10 flamer rubrics for real punch, 2 units of min Tgor to hold backfield. That would be 1055, so 950 to use on some support characters, hellbrutes, contemptors, or maybe even Leviathan or Vindicators. Since the SoT are obsec I think that really justifies a lot of them.

I just can't wait to start playing with this dex so it is no longer theory hammer.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, with that last post in mind...

How viable is a melee-heavy TSons list? I don't have the 'Dex, and may not get it (if it can't do what I want it to, not worth the $50) but what if you went heavy on Scarab Occult Terminators, maybe some Tzaangors for chaffy melee, some Maulerfiends... Obviously you'd have a decent shooting and psychic punch, but can you do work in CC?

It can work. People are a little too down on capabilities.

1x5 Spawn, 2x1 Spawn ( hold objectives after Tzaangors do actions ), 1x10 Tzaangors, 1x20 Tzaangors, Mutalith, and Heldrake ( all that is only 681 ) supported by some Rubrics, Scarabs, and HQs. The Tzaangors will help keep casters safe as well.

drakerocket wrote:
Really quite disappointed in the no tanzgors in rhinos thing. I feel the 10 in a rhino would have been a deeply solid backbone for the army.

That being said, I still think they have a reasonable place. A tzaangor bomb of 20 + shaman is still a good DMC target. Tossing it up turn one with a brayhorn and throwing down weaver on it stands a decent charge chance and will be irritating as heck for many opponents to screen. It isn't that many points and if it gets the charge off will eat a lot of screening units, leaving the opponents very vulnerable to psychic powers, since screens are a vital defense. You can also string them for big time move-blocking. 8 in rerollable is a little less than 70%~. There aren't a ton of guns that love shooting into T4 4++

In general I think tzaangors mostly suffer from mobility which rhinos would have solved. They aren't amazing in melee, but they are totally enough to kill what you need them to. 10 unsupported do well into a squad of wyches, into a unit of sisters, kill any generic small objective holder. They don't do the best into intercessors, but they will steal a point from them on the charge (kill 1 intercessor on the charge, lose 3 gors to the crack back, 7 vs 4).

I think it is definitely worth looking at forgeworld options. We have good buffs for volcoms (for shooting they hardcore outdo hellbrutes) and even fire raptors feel like a reasonable consideration.

I agree on feeling luke warm on rubrics. I really want to like them, but AP-2 shooting just doesn't feel great. They feel just on the cusp; if they were just a bit cheaper, if all is dust had gotten some kind of meaningful improvement...heck even if the aspiring sorc got a full bolter I'd feel better.

The flamer might have some play; having run sisters ret squads with heavy flamers, they felt very strong. You're trading +2 strength (which can be buffed) for -1 AP. No max shots strat but you're on a much tougher platform and you have obsec, plus of course the psychic power. Probably reasonable for the 25 extra points. I think 2-3 squads in rhinos moving up the board have legit play; it notably ticks up their output (roughly 100% increase before buffs) and, perhaps just as important, provides a strong defense against charges which is a vulnerability of theirs. That squad now kills roughly 4 intercessors between psychic and shooting if you give them a start or psychic buff, which isn't bad for 125 points. I think they're probably the best thing in a rhino we can do.

Actually, when I think more about it, a unit of 5 chaos spawn will benefit more from that weaver of fates and dark matter crystal technique. Now you suddenly get a 20W unit that has T5 and a 4++ save. Yeet that into the face of armies and it will take some time to chew through that. And it cost less than a squad of 20 Tzaangors too... 5 spawn only cost 115 points.

I'm sure most people are aware, but our reach is a fair bit shorter on spells. All of our mind bullets are 18" or less save for Desecration. We might find that dropping cabal points on +6" will be the most common use turns 1 and 2.

You will get into combat earlier than you might intend. Bring goats.

People are down on that because none of that really does any significant damage for the points except the 5 man spawn unit.

The only efficient melee stuff in the book is the spawn, with helbrutes and maulers being maybe like B tier melee at a stretch against elite profiles.

I just noticed spawn lost their hateful assault too but the only compensation was going from 1d6 to 2d3 on base attacks. So they've actually gone down by about ~.5 attacks per model, not up like I initially thought. Sad days.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:


Actually, when I think more about it, a unit of 5 chaos spawn will benefit more from that weaver of fates and dark matter crystal technique. Now you suddenly get a 20W unit that has T5 and a 4++ save. Yeet that into the face of armies and it will take some time to chew through that. And it cost less than a squad of 20 Tzaangors too... 5 spawn only cost 115 points.

Spawn can't use crystal, it's infantry only (if you don't use it on the bearer), not that you would probably want to crystal them anyway given how bad their chances of making the charge are. They can be warptimed, though, which will generally be the delivery strategy after giving them the 4++. Even with the minor nerf I noted above, it's still the only thing in the book that actually qualifies as any kind of melee threat that can trade in a points efficient way.

yukishiro1 wrote:
People are down on that because none of that really does any significant damage for the points except the 5 man spawn unit.

The only efficient melee stuff in the book is the spawn, with helbrutes and maulers being maybe like B tier melee at a stretch against elite profiles.

I just noticed spawn lost their hateful assault too but the only compensation was going from 1d6 to 2d3 on base attacks. So they've actually gone down by about ~.5 attacks per model, not up like I initially thought. Sad days.

Well, it becomes a symbiotic thing. Tzaangors aren't a blender, but when they tie up units while you fling mortal wounds into them it can hurt.

On Spawn you had a reroll with fated, so an average of 4.17 to 4.25 ( depending if you reroll 3s or not ) + 1. Now we average 4 + 1. Picking for more attacks used to be +2 and now is +D3. It isn't really a terrible difference especially now that we can give them a 4++. That and new spawn won't fall on their face if you don't have the CP to spend.

Yeah it's only a small nerf offensively, but it is a nerf. Still far and away the best unit in the book for trading.

On cults, I'm having a hard time looking past prophecy, a miracle dice (though you can't use it for saves or damage rolls, boo) you can use *after* the roll is a ridiculously powerful effect, even if you only get one per turn and there's a decent chance of it turning out to be a dud - though if you really want to you could take an infernal master, and use his reroll to reroll your prophecy dice if you come up with a 2 or something. The warlord trait is the best in the book too IMO, and the relic actually has potential when used to buff a multi-melta helbrute, that can get good use out of the three rerolls in each phase.

Time, Scheming, Duplicity look good too, and Manipulation has an incredibly strong psychic power, though the rest of it is garbage, meaning it might be worth it for a patrol just to get access to the power.

Hmm, warptimed Chaos Spawn sounds even better than using the dark matter crystal on them. Chaos Spawn are literally the only unit I really want to fling into combat. (Outside of maybe Tzaangors). The only other things I might want to throw into melee in a Tsons army would be Magnus, Hellbrute and Defiler. But as a throwaway or trading unit? Chaos Spawn is the best choice.

Ok, maybe Occult Terminators too. But those are definitely not throwaway and I definitely wouldn't want to throw them into melee if its a bad trade.

Well, scarabs are practically a dual unit
Gun down the choppy, chop down the shooty.

Scarabs seem good, but they pretty much require giving up on while we stand since they clock in at a minimum 200, they need to be really doing stuff at close range, and if they are, they're going to die. I guess you could try to make a while we stand list work that takes one 5 man and just keeps it in reserves till T3 then puts it down somewhere where it can either survive to the end of the game, or take SO much fire with the 1CP for -1D that it doesn't feel like a huge loss of the 5 points. The 400 point unit will survive if you play cagey with it, but it's also 400 points that won't be doing anything because you need to play cagey with it, so I'm not sure that's a great idea.

The TS secondaries are all situationally powerful, but none of them are things you can really build around - though you can build to take one of either Mutate Landscape or Psychic Ritual, depending on the map and opponent, thanks to the 8 cabal point ability to make a psychic action undeniable. Wrath of Magnus will be great in probably 90% of the matches you are eligible to take it, but that's still going to be less than half of games total, so having the ability to choose while we stand instead seems really valuable.

I don't think we're an amazing force for while we stand. Everything we have needs to be up close to function and therefore vulnerable.

I dunno, I don't think it's hard to play carefully with Ahriman and an upgraded Exalted on Disc if you build it so they're two of the highest points; they both have good movement, fly, and character protection, and you don't lose a lot by not being in melee. It's the third one that's the issue. I guess you could take a second Exalted on Disc, one with the extra cast and the other with the extra relic upgrades, and really double down on keeping your characters alive. Not sure how fun a game that'd be though, especially if your opponent takes abhor and then the whole game just comes down to cat and mouse.

Anyone pondering putting a relic on a unit champ?

For me what hurts most is the loss of 24" smites. 18" vs. 24" is a huge difference, and while 9th mission design will get you enough units midfield to smite at, i will miss those extra 6" we could keep between us and the enemy units. Also makes it a bit harder to smite with characters hiding behind our other units if you want to keep distance. :/


On the other hand i love the cabal point mechanic which will be quite handy.
With 7 CP we get a "free" super smite with Pact from beyond if you cast 7+ smites total, which got a lot more probable & reliable with Ahriman / Magnus rerolls, the overall +1 and the extra +1 / +2 from CP.

Overall TS will do more MW`s but at closer range. Too bad there is not much we can do about the cc abilities of Rubric Marines, only sneaky stuff like porting out of cc and shoot the melee units, but 5 Scarabs instead of 5 Rubrics might become the better way to march up the midfield.
Will still prefer 2 x 5 Rubrics as backfield campers, because with Icons they could get you up to 4 CP a turn. 250 is pricey for 10 marines but they are kinda tanky, will provide some dakka and you still get 2 casts.

Very cool we get the Soulreaper cannon back for squads of 5, gonna take them all the time if i have a few spare points.
Gonna need to put 1 or 2 icons on my soulreaper dudes though.^^

134 for 5 flamers is kinda ok, enough for putting them in strategic reserve or jumping them and clear some cheap campers from an objective.


Infernal master will be an auto-take for me every game. Glimpse of eternity is just damn good.

Do people think you still have to pay the CP for the extra relic from Dilettante? I.e. does the 35 points just let you double up, or does it give you the relic too?

My read is the latter, because if all it did was allow you to take a second relic on a model that already has one while still having to pay the CP for it, there wouldn't be any reason to word it how it does re: "even if the model already has a relic," it would just say "this model is eligible to take two relics" or something like that.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Do people think you still have to pay the CP for the extra relic from Dilettante? I.e. does the 35 points just let you double up, or does it give you the relic too?

My read is the latter, because if all it did was allow you to take a second relic on a model that already has one while still having to pay the CP for it, there wouldn't be any reason to word it how it does re: "even if the model already has a relic," it would just say "this model is eligible to take two relics" or something like that.

The strat says "you cannot use this stratagem to give a model two relics" and Dilettante, to me, seems to indicate that it grants you the relic at time of purchase. 35 points is more than the rough cost of a CP so it seems more than fair.

drakerocket wrote:
I don't think we're an amazing force for while we stand. Everything we have needs to be up close to function and therefore vulnerable.

Been tinkering with a Tzeentch soup list that runs Magnus with Belakor and the Exalted LoC, think that's a better solution for While We Stand. Granted I'm not terribly confident in the efficacy of that list but I just really want to find a way to run Magnus and the LoC together.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


The strat says "you cannot use this stratagem to give a model two relics" and Dilettante, to me, seems to indicate that it grants you the relic at time of purchase. 35 points is more than the rough cost of a CP so it seems more than fair.

Well it's 35 points not just for a relic but also for being able to double up. But I agree, that's how I'm going to play it unless there's a FAQ that says otherwise.

Re: Magnus LoC etc.

I don't think bash brothers works well in the current meta and less so now than before. Mag's spells are locked now, he can't even warptime himself and he's squishier.

I'm actually pretty disappointed in him. Vahl, Mortarian and the Silent King have all felt like really good balance points. They're not auto-takes (vahl might be the closest, but she really isn't) and yet they're all legit competitive.

Magnus does not feel that way. He feels like a major liability; he's probably half as tough as mortarian, can't be character blocked like vahl, can't even be terrain blocked like the SK. He's not even really an amazing force multipulier. You could make him 50 points cheaper than he is now and I doubt he'd be an auto-take.

Yeah Magnus is really hard to use now, he's so vulnerable to getting blown up and doesn't have the mobility or the range any more to stay out of trouble. He got nerfed from pretty much all angles, and the end package doesn't look very good.

I think the bash brothers ideas won't work well in this competitive meta either.

However, what about Magnus and Friends?

I'm pretty sure this is under 2000pts:
TS Aux
-Magnus

Daemon Battalion
-Be'lakor
-Exalted LoC

-10x Brimestones
-3x Nurglings
-3x Nurglings

-9x Flamers (for that cheeky ds and strategem to cause mortals on 6s)

DG Supreme
-Morty

Not sure how competitive, but 4 absolute monsters your opponents has to contend with.

Most armies can drop one big guy in 1st turn, and if so, they'll get the remaining 3 bastards on their backline by turn 2. Potentially to overmatch your opponents.

Thoughts?

 whembly wrote:
I think the bash brothers ideas won't work well in this competitive meta either.

However, what about Magnus and Friends?

I'm pretty sure this is under 2000pts:
TS Aux
-Magnus

Daemon Battalion
-Be'lakor
-Exalted LoC

-10x Brimestones
-3x Nurglings
-3x Nurglings

-9x Flamers (for that cheeky ds and strategem to cause mortals on 6s)

DG Supreme
-Morty

Not sure how competitive, but 4 absolute monsters your opponents has to contend with.

Most armies can drop one big guy in 1st turn, and if so, they'll get the remaining 3 bastards on their backline by turn 2. Potentially to overmatch your opponents.

Thoughts?

I think any force able to easily deal with knights would have no issues with this type of force. Sure you have massive amounts of psycic output but your ranged output is almost none and an enemy that can easily play keep away like Harliquins or Dark Eldar would just kill whatever they felt like first and not let your big guys get near them until they wanted to be that close.

I agree with Magnus being a points sink. Quite frankly knowing all the spells is only so useful when he can only cast 3. The +3 is good for getting super smite etc., but with cabal point etc., I think you can basically get the same casting rate out of Ahriman, who is less than half the price. Yes Magnus has the super smite, but that is one spell that can be cast once on one unit, and it is still the closest unit, so it is not like you can go after specific targets with it. That is combined with him being less durable. I would probably not even take him if he was 350 points to be honest. Also, why can't he take one Cult WL trait? Morty gets 4 traits, 3 locked in then he gets to pick one from their sub-factions. If you could give Magnus the no-reroll trait he would be much better at surviving (probably still not worth 450). Also they should have just given him a 3++. I mean I know they are moving away from that, but if any unit in the game deserves it, it would be him.

The only other couple of things I am see that are a bit upsetting are the no Tgors in Rhinos (maybe that was an oversight and it will get FAQ hopefully), and the 5++ part of the detachment bonus is a bit let down. Other than CSM vehicles, every unit already had 5++ in the old book, and so really it is a trait that really only affected like 5 data sheets. So we really only have one detachment bonus +1 to cast, however that one is really good.

I also think in relation to above, the brotherhood of sorcerers should have language that it is a 5++, unless you are in terminator armor then it is a 4++. If the SoT had a 4++ I think they would be perfect.

However on a more positive note, here are some things I have been thinking about. I am not saying these will be competitive or even good, just worth a think:

The Infernal Master's +1 Strength to shooting is "Thousand Son unit" so will work on Leviathan Dread. That will make duel Storm Auto Cannons (or whatever they are called) 20 shots at S8, -1ap and D2. That is pretty tasty.

Hellbrute with two fists and two inferno combi-bolters in fists is 125 I think. That is a pretty good melee unit except against hoards, but carries 8 inferno bolter shots at half range. And can fire them into combat if necessary.

I am in agreement with most people that MSU is probably best in the new book, however one big squad of SoT might work. It is a good place to put buffs, and if you use Time Cult and the coalescence legion command (that heals wounded models in the command phase to full each command phase) it could get good. Every time you cast the Time Cult spell with 9 or more, spend 1 CP and then you are bring back two SoT a turn and they are fully healed each turn. With Cabal points should be pretty doable. Also you can get more out of the soul sweep strat if facing hoards with the 2 soul reapers.

As I said before I also think a large squad of flamer Rubrics using either Duplicity, the Dark Matter Crystal (or whatever it is now) or warptime might also be a good investment for a unit to take advantage of multiple buffs then get a good 8d6 flame shots off in turn one.

Again I can't wait to play.

Azuza001 wrote:

Spoiler:

 whembly wrote:
I think the bash brothers ideas won't work well in this competitive meta either.

However, what about Magnus and Friends?

I'm pretty sure this is under 2000pts:
TS Aux
-Magnus

Daemon Battalion
-Be'lakor
-Exalted LoC

-10x Brimestones
-3x Nurglings
-3x Nurglings

-9x Flamers (for that cheeky ds and strategem to cause mortals on 6s)

DG Supreme
-Morty

Not sure how competitive, but 4 absolute monsters your opponents has to contend with.

Most armies can drop one big guy in 1st turn, and if so, they'll get the remaining 3 bastards on their backline by turn 2. Potentially to overmatch your opponents.

Thoughts?

I think any force able to easily deal with knights would have no issues with this type of force. Sure you have massive amounts of psycic output but your ranged output is almost none and an enemy that can easily play keep away like Harliquins or Dark Eldar would just kill whatever they felt like first and not let your big guys get near them until they wanted to be that close.

You're probably right.

Going first though really makes it not like Knights armies though as Morty/Magnus can get up his -1 to hit powers, Be'lakor has native -1 to hit/wound and Exalted LoC can choose to get -1 to hit exalted powers. LoC will have 3++ and Magnus can get 4++. Can Knights get that up consistently? (Rotate Shields CP?).

The other thing I've never seen, is a all close combat Knight Armies. I've seen 1 and rare 2 Knights are kitted for massed close combat. The 4 demon bashers job's is engage the enemy. The only list I'd fear is the standard kabal DE shooty list.

About Magnus, actually, he didn't have the -1 damage previously right? Isn't that pretty good? He lost the 3++ invul. But he is running around with default 4++, -1 damage now right?

Someone should do the math and see if 4++ with -1 damage is worse or as good as 3++. I think it sort of a wash. Magnus is one of the few units in Tsons which is not only fast, (relatively hard to kill), and hits really hard in melee. He has 8 attacks now! I would run him in an aggressive Tsons list.

Like, fly him up one flank, warptime 5 chaos spawn unit with 4++ up with him, and also place a 10 man Scarab terminator unit via strategem in the midboard near him on turn one. Then really smash that flank hard.

I am starting to think if we want to be more aggressive with a Tsons list, a flying Daemon Prince may be sort of the goto. A DP in any form hits hard. It can't solo a flank. But we can warptime a unit of 5 Spawn up with it, and we can maybe run up two Maulerfiends too. That sounds like a suitable hammer. And unlike Magnus, a DP can't be targeted because it can benefit from look out sir.

So, use strategem to start a 10 man obsec terminator in the midboard (behind obscuring terrain), and turn 1, run up 2 mauler fiends, warp time up a 5man Chaos spawn, and fly up the DP.

Turn 1, our opponent gets hit hard by psykic from the Occults Termies, the DP, then shot up by the Occults, plus whatever else long range shooting we have, and then he has 20W of 4++ spawn, two 12W maulerfiends, 30W of Occults Terminators and a untargetable flying DP in his face. And all these are pretty good at fighting. Together, they should be able to take down almost anything they hit in one flank. Most of the charging would only happen on turn 2 though. But I imagine between the shooting and psychic, and given so many wounds concentrated in this group, there should be enough left to charge in and fight on turn 2. The whole group probably cost close to 1000 points, but hey, if you want to make a hammer, going half measures isn't going to cut it.

Magnus + 10 occult termies +5 chaos spawn....sooo...half your army? Magnus will die turn one, along with either all of your chaos spawn or half of your termies. Not much left to hold the flank. 8 attacks? So like, the same as a succubus or a squig boss? If you wanna be really sad, compare it to either the new orc squig boss or a tricked out succubus.

I'm sorry, I love him too, but he fails on pretty much all fronts. His casting is good, but it isn't as good as 1 exalted sorc + ahirman (...which comes in at 60% of his points and is character blocked), his durability is kinda trash and his melee is...good for a 200 point model maybe? I think my initial evaluation of 'he needs to be 50 points less' was probably an overvaluation of his abilities.

That being said, in the realm of zany big things, a 360 point fire raptor looks kinda...nutty good for absorbing buffs? It loves the 5++, loves the 4++ even more and is an outstanding target for the -1 ap strat, +1 strength infernal pact and presage. That is hardly an unrealistic buff set up and results in.....(assuming a reroll aura range which seems pretty likely)

10 strength 7 ap -3 D2 shots
8 strength 8 ap -2 D2 shots
4 strength 10 ap -4 d6 shots
Hitting on 2s rerolling 1s...

That is 2.5 dead raiders, 3 dead las chickens, 13 dead intercessors, 18 wounds off of a knight.

Durability wise some armies will be able to take it down, but its range and mobility protect it pretty well against multi-meltas, and -1 to hit 5++ 18 wounds is well...about as good as magnus! =D (would be a great candidate for weaver as well) But 100 points less and faaar faster and more murderous. Some armies just won't be able to deal either. 5 dark lance raiders average 5 wounds on it, even 6 laz chickens (probably the best profile to shoot it) only manage 11 or 12.

 xeen wrote:
The Infernal Master's +1 Strength to shooting is "Thousand Son unit" so will work on Leviathan Dread. That will make duel Storm Auto Cannons (or whatever they are called) 20 shots at S8, -1ap and D2. That is pretty tasty.

I've been on the lookout for similar weapons, but that one sounds like the best so far.

Hellbrute with two fists and two inferno combi-bolters in fists is 125 I think. That is a pretty good melee unit except against hoards, but carries 8 inferno bolter shots at half range. And can fire them into combat if necessary.

I would almost think it'd be better to go fist and MM just to have some more ranged presence, which you can also fire into combat anyway.

I am in agreement with most people that MSU is probably best in the new book, however one big squad of SoT might work. It is a good place to put buffs, and if you use Time Cult and the coalescence legion command (that heals wounded models in the command phase to full each command phase) it could get good. Every time you cast the Time Cult spell with 9 or more, spend 1 CP and then you are bring back two SoT a turn and they are fully healed each turn. With Cabal points should be pretty doable. Also you can get more out of the soul sweep strat if facing hoards with the 2 soul reapers.

Similar thoughts here again. I'm trying to think of how to take advantage of this for WWSWF as well.

As I said before I also think a large squad of flamer Rubrics using either Duplicity, the Dark Matter Crystal (or whatever it is now) or warptime might also be a good investment for a unit to take advantage of multiple buffs then get a good 8d6 flame shots off in turn one.

Again I can't wait to play.

Well, hmmm yeah. Like I said earlier... Tsons isn't really built as melee specialists... Its tough trying to make an aggressive melee list work for Tsons.

I thought of a safer strategy. We can have two or three units of 5 chaos spawn and send them up in waves each turn with the 4++ save and warptime.

So, imagine we have 3 units of 5 chaos spawn. This is actually quite cheap. Its only 345 points in total. So, first turn, hide two units, weaver of fates and warptime the first unit up into opponent's face.

Turn 2, do the same thing to the second unit.

Turn 3, do the same thing to the third unit.

And of course, the rest of our army is steadily marching up the field, casting psychic and shooting. So at some point, turn 2 or turn 3, the chaos spawn will be joined with the rest of our army.

So, every turn, our opponent will have to deal with 20W 4++ spawn which are actually decent in combat. While being shot at and smited. And even if they wipe out the spawn each turn, its a 115 point unit. No big deal. And its a chore to kill a 20W T5 4++ unit. Imagine having to do it for three turns, while having your army shot at and smited.

And given we can warp time, if our opponent gives up the midboard, we can then take it with our army moving up, and then leapfrog our chaos spawn directly into their deployment zone.

This is sort of similar to a strategy I saw in a CSM slaanash possessed army that sent out wave after wave of 20 possessed. except we will have far more shooting and psychic than that army and we lose a lot less when they kill a unit of 5 spawn compared to losing a unit of 20 possessed. Its also alot easier to hide 5 spawn behind obscuring terrain strategically until we are ready to waver of fates and warptime them up.


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On a seperate thing, which is better? A tooled up castor flying DP or Ahriman on a disk ? The DP is tougher, and can fight better, and can have warlord traits and relics to make him probably as strong a psyker as Ahriman.

But Ahriman has 3 cast to the DP's two. So, I guess the question here is, is that 1 more cast worth losing the additional utility the flying DP has. Because both are quite close in points I believe.

Ahriman is by far the best HQ in the book, it's not a question of him or somebody else, it's a question of who you take *with* him. I cannot imagine any list that doesn't include him, being able to reroll psychic tests natively is just so powerful, especially with the +1. Nothing else in the book (besides Magnus) comes close to Ahriman's psychic prowess.

Personally I think an Exalted Sorc is better than a Daemon Prince in this book, but I can see arguments for the Prince too.