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H.B.M.C. wrote: But it doesn't have to solve all of CSMs problems. It just has to make them worth playing until they get their proper 'Dex.
I've always said that GW should have used Chapter Approved like they did in 2017 to provide tide-you-over rules for factions further away on the release schedule.
However CSM certainly aren't the only faction stuck behind the curve, and there's no reason for GW to single them out for special treatment without anyone else getting updated pre-codex
H.B.M.C. wrote: But it doesn't have to solve all of CSMs problems. It just has to make them worth playing until they get their proper 'Dex.
I've always said that GW should have used Chapter Approved like they did in 2017 to provide tide-you-over rules for factions further away on the release schedule.
However CSM certainly aren't the only faction stuck behind the curve, and there's no reason for GW to single them out for special treatment without anyone else getting updated pre-codex
most armies with an 8th edition codex have tide you over rules, CSMs are just in a weird place because suddenly they're the only marines with less then 2 wounds
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
In fairness, it's not like 2w chaos marines will suddenly make the army viable. If anything, it just means you're spending more points on units that would suck even with 2w.
CSM aren't a durable army, they haven't been for a while. 2w loyalist marines aren't exactly tearing up the meta, what makes loyalist armies much better than CSM is their options and stackable benefits. Most of the infantry loyalist armies are leaning on with marines are carrying storm shields. Raptors will still be a poor man's van vets for example.
I think without better buffs and legion traits I think we might just be better off taking more cheap and fragile units anyway
Eldarain wrote: So we have a shot at 5 years of reroll failed morale as our sole free layer of rules and might get to enjoy 2 years of being stuck at 1 wound while Loyalists run around with 2.
What a massive disappointment post Marines 2.0 has been.
Now now, you’re also forgetting that we got an additional hit on every roll of 6 as long as it’s in melee, the target is imperial, and there’s no negative penalties.
Eldarain wrote: So we have a shot at 5 years of reroll failed morale as our sole free layer of rules and might get to enjoy 2 years of being stuck at 1 wound while Loyalists run around with 2.
What a massive disappointment post Marines 2.0 has been.
Now now, you’re also forgetting that we got an additional hit on every roll of 6 as long as it’s in melee, the target is imperial, and there’s no negative penalties.
Sounds like the army has a lot going for it even without having 2 wounds!
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
Sounds like the army has a lot going for it even without having 2 wounds!
i think thats the consensus these days. CSM have, like, one competitive build and the rest is just meh. they are sorely in need of far more than just a 2nd wound, but given the relatively high standards of the new codexes in improving internal balance, i am cautiously optimistic.
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It's not even just balance issue. It is just ridiculous that some marines have two wounds and some have one. Like they're the basically the same thing, why would they have different stats? When they first said that the wounds would be fixed in the codes, I assumed it meant the codex was imminent, but leaving such a disparity in the game for this long is just terrible. There was even Chapter Approved where they could have sorted it if they felt it was too complicated for a FAQ.
In 8th we also had Bolter drill as a Beta rule to try out before becoming official. Wasn't that even released in a WD? I could be mistaking. But there's a lot of ways they could have solved that, especially when you realize they wrote a proper FAQ with their own rules for Space Wolves, whose Codex came out about two months later.
Eldarain wrote: So we have a shot at 5 years of reroll failed morale as our sole free layer of rules and might get to enjoy 2 years of being stuck at 1 wound while Loyalists run around with 2.
What a massive disappointment post Marines 2.0 has been.
Now now, you’re also forgetting that we got an additional hit on every roll of 6 as long as it’s in melee, the target is imperial, and there’s no negative penalties.
that's being replaced in the next codex with a straight second attack BTW. assuming 1k sons and death guard are anything to go by.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
H.B.M.C. wrote: But it doesn't have to solve all of CSMs problems. It just has to make them worth playing until they get their proper 'Dex.
I've always said that GW should have used Chapter Approved like they did in 2017 to provide tide-you-over rules for factions further away on the release schedule.
However CSM certainly aren't the only faction stuck behind the curve, and there's no reason for GW to single them out for special treatment without anyone else getting updated pre-codex
most armies with an 8th edition codex have tide you over rules, CSMs are just in a weird place because suddenly they're the only marines with less then 2 wounds
CSM are also the only marines with a dreadnought without the -1 to all damage rule, the only Legions with BS/WS4 daemon engines (except the ones made out of resin), dreadnoughts that DO have the -1 to all damage rule but no faction traits (because gw forgot to change <DREADNOUGHT> to <HELLBRUTE> when they copy pasted the Chaos rules from loyalists in the Compendium), faction traits that don't work on VEHICLES besides HELLBRUTES, etc, etc. "In a weird place" is exactly the right way to put it.
H.B.M.C. wrote: But it doesn't have to solve all of CSMs problems. It just has to make them worth playing until they get their proper 'Dex.
I've always said that GW should have used Chapter Approved like they did in 2017 to provide tide-you-over rules for factions further away on the release schedule.
However CSM certainly aren't the only faction stuck behind the curve, and there's no reason for GW to single them out for special treatment without anyone else getting updated pre-codex
most armies with an 8th edition codex have tide you over rules, CSMs are just in a weird place because suddenly they're the only marines with less then 2 wounds
CSM are also the only marines with a dreadnought without the -1 to all damage rule, the only Legions with BS/WS4 daemon engines (except the ones made out of resin), dreadnoughts that DO have the -1 to all damage rule but no faction traits (because gw forgot to change <DREADNOUGHT> to <HELLBRUTE> when they copy pasted the Chaos rules from loyalists in the Compendium), faction traits that don't work on VEHICLES besides HELLBRUTES, etc, etc. "In a weird place" is exactly the right way to put it.
a lot of this can be house ruled around if you're not in a RAW enviroment, but yeah it sucks. I'm hoping that for CSMs the wait is worth it and the next codex is a "knock your socks off amazing" codex. and not a situation like space wolves 8th edition where they make you wait a year after everyone else has their codex only to give you no new models (you STILL can't buy they SW leuitenant by himself) and a copy pasta codex.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Eldarain wrote: So we have a shot at 5 years of reroll failed morale as our sole free layer of rules and might get to enjoy 2 years of being stuck at 1 wound while Loyalists run around with 2.
What a massive disappointment post Marines 2.0 has been.
Now now, you’re also forgetting that we got an additional hit on every roll of 6 as long as it’s in melee, the target is imperial, and there’s no negative penalties.
that's being replaced in the next codex with a straight second attack BTW. assuming 1k sons and death guard are anything to go by.
At this point, they might not be. 'Next year, sometime' puts them in the targeting sights of the sudden paradigm shift of codex design that inevitably happens over the course of a 40k edition.
Well see I remember back when Dark Angels had worse smoke and storm shields, etc, etc to regular marines for a long time. They could have simply FAQed them to the current standard, instead we were told to politely ask to use the current rules for the wargear but they didn't need to allow us, but they would unless they were a cruel git, basically.
GW is nothing if not consistent at being head up bum in some regard. The fact that they haven't just hand waved some extra points and a second wound to chaos marines is pretty dumb. The fact they leave some factions to languish seemingly for a long time sucking eggs is equally stupid.
I will say as well with the state of things for me, I'm just basically riding this edition out and finishing my collections. I don't think I'll get any of the new books and just wait for the next edition as by the time I'll get good use out of my armies it'll probably be time for the next edition anyways and most of these books are so heavily changed after dropping it'd feel like buying a broken wrong book right out the gate.
I appreciate the drive for balance but I don't appreciate them not having it done correct on printing and feeling like I bought a piece of trash I can't rely on for a not insignificant price. It used to be they said we were buying quality but with how much they get altered and made wrong it just doesn't feel like quality these days.
Next edition may have better attention to this, that is my hope anyways.
As for those that suck and may suck for awhile, I am really sorry for your armies and I hope GW make an effort to at least give a bandaid to some of these factions if they'll be sitting out so long.
The baked in extra attack TS and DG got was because they got rid of hateful assault (shock assault). DTTFE was just removed with no replacement.
Thing is with CSM, is you can write a list of the things they're missing like no -1 to damage on dreads etc, but there's also a lot of stuff they still have that has been taken away like DTTFE, full rerolls on stuff like leviathan dreads and Daemon engines and crazy strong strategems like endless cacophony. The sort of stuff that's been removed in new codexes.
I'm not saying that puts them anywhere near on par with 9th ed codexes, but it does demonstrate how wonky CSM's rules are right now. They really need a whole new codex, patch changes like the 2w buff isn't gonna fix them - could even break them in fact.
There are still some incredibly strong skew builds that CSM can put out that are tempered by their other rules, mainly to do with the fact they have zero durability.
Ignoring stats and wounds, one of the biggest things this edition pushes is the crusade system and 1/3 of the armies don't have their own flavour or sections for it yet.
Likewise in the "most competitive edition of the game ever" when secondaries reign all important, 1/3 of the game lack their own flavourful objectives.
Whilst they have strats and army rules from 8th, in many ways this is a lot like the issues with playing index vs codex armies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/15 07:21:48
H.B.M.C. wrote: But it doesn't have to solve all of CSMs problems. It just has to make them worth playing until they get their proper 'Dex.
I've always said that GW should have used Chapter Approved like they did in 2017 to provide tide-you-over rules for factions further away on the release schedule.
However CSM certainly aren't the only faction stuck behind the curve, and there's no reason for GW to single them out for special treatment without anyone else getting updated pre-codex
most armies with an 8th edition codex have tide you over rules, CSMs are just in a weird place because suddenly they're the only marines with less then 2 wounds
CSM are also the only marines with a dreadnought without the -1 to all damage rule, the only Legions with BS/WS4 daemon engines (except the ones made out of resin), dreadnoughts that DO have the -1 to all damage rule but no faction traits (because gw forgot to change <DREADNOUGHT> to <HELLBRUTE> when they copy pasted the Chaos rules from loyalists in the Compendium), faction traits that don't work on VEHICLES besides HELLBRUTES, etc, etc. "In a weird place" is exactly the right way to put it.
a lot of this can be house ruled around if you're not in a RAW enviroment, but yeah it sucks. I'm hoping that for CSMs the wait is worth it and the next codex is a "knock your socks off amazing" codex. and not a situation like space wolves 8th edition where they make you wait a year after everyone else has their codex only to give you no new models (you STILL can't buy they SW leuitenant by himself) and a copy pasta codex.
Well, hope springs eternal. But we are getting new Chosen, and it looks like the Lost and The Damned are coming back. Hey, you know what CSM codex the Lost and The Damned list worked with? Maybe they're finally getting their inspiration from the Right Place.
Saw this list on Facebook and thought it was bogus but now Ive seen who its from, might be legit. Squats/dwarfs in space have been hinted at here and there and considering the rumour list doesn't mention subsequent Killteam info after the SoBv Tau they could reappear as a Killteam. The Eldar are definitely coming as a recent Rumour Engine was the bloody arm of the Avatar Of Khaine.
Surprised at no Nids because of their involvement with Octarius and having 2 rumour engines bu maybe thats a killteam/supplement release rather than a codex update. I'm sure we will find out pretty soon if these are true or not.
silverstu wrote: Saw this list on Facebook and thought it was bogus but now Ive seen who its from, might be legit. Squats/dwarfs in space have been hinted at here and there and considering the rumour list doesn't mention subsequent Killteam info after the SoBv Tau they could reappear as a Killteam. The Eldar are definitely coming as a recent Rumour Engine was the bloody arm of the Avatar Of Khaine.
Surprised at no Nids because of their involvement with Octarius and having 2 rumour engines bu maybe thats a killteam/supplement release rather than a codex update. I'm sure we will find out pretty soon if these are true or not.
The last few Tyranid "rumour" photos turned out to be bits of tyranids dead on bases or other xenos things.
Tyranids surprises me indeed because of Octarius involvement and because GW really don't have to do much to keep Tyranid players happy and move them fully off finecast.
Then again its almost like someone at GW doesn't want them to "abandon" finecast. Slaanesh got 2 massive updates to models as well as a few individual releases over the last 2 years and yet after all that and after removing some old and updating almost everything that wasn't modern plastic - the Viceleader, ergo leader on foot, is still finecast. Everything else that pretty much was a deamonette or original seeker based kit got an upgrade except the Viceleader. Then again its also interesting that a lot of AoS armies have had a centrepiece mounted model and Slaanesh hasn't got one of those either (unless Glutos counts but he's really not your typical mounted leader); and indeed lost the "boob worm" mounted leader. So perhaps, who knows, there's a little more for Slaanesh hanging in waiting.
Squats/Demiurge/Dwarves in Space making a return isn't impossible to consider. It would give them a brand new army which would be neat, esp as AoS has shown that a bigger range of models and armies CAN be supported and can avoid the Marine effect and do really well for itself. I still think Tau Auxiliaries/allies/xenos forces should be a thing - built around a Kroot core with loads of various races that lets GW flex its creative freedom whilst also fitting into the lore of aliens on the fringe who have survived the Imperium and are now banding/being brought into the fold of the Tau forces. And by separating it it means that the mecha-core of Tau remains what it is - which is good as its clearly popular
Eldar getting a semibig update is almost a given unless they were going to squat them. It's nearly always been more a question of when not if - with it being a very long when.
Demiurg being a modern imaging of the Squats would both give GW more freedom to play up the Space Dwarf theme, whilst giving Tau an ally and adding another Xenos army to balance out the mount of Imperial ones. But I fully expect they'll be an Imperial army with a Copyrightius Markium name. The "SQUATS ARE -BACK-!" memes from the Community and community will do all the marketing they could ever need, plus all the influencers who can go "Haha im playing/painting SQUATs thats something i bet you never thought i would say XDDD" Being Imperials also means they can sell them to Marine players as allies.
People are dismissing the rumours based on Squats being mentioned, but you'd probably get a similar reaction six years ago if you said Guilliman would be getting a 40k model, Space Marines would get an entire range refresh as 'Primaris' and Genestealer Cults are returning as a standalone faction.
Considering Kroot haven't had a new model in literally twenty years and GW seem to be actively steering away from Auxiliaries in terms of models (last were the metal Vespid I think?) I do wonder if GW intend to spin them off into their own standalone codex like the Harlequins.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/16 14:10:56
I'd hope if GW did spin Tau away, that they'd do it better than Harlies. To me armies like Harlies and Inquisition were hobbled by basically being fairly small model ranges that were designed to tack-onto another army.
I think you have to go all in with a new army such as they've done with Genestealer Cults (and even that took two releases to fully shed the shackles of being bound to Imperial Guard).
Dudeface wrote: Well, today's article and the codex cover for black templars seems to confirm phobos neophytes with bolt carbines and new sword brethren
Yes, and if that part of the leak is true, then the rest being true is far more likely. Chosen and Lost and The Damned. Gimme gimme gimme.
Dudeface wrote: Well, today's article and the codex cover for black templars seems to confirm phobos neophytes with bolt carbines and new sword brethren
Yes, and if that part of the leak is true, then the rest being true is far more likely. Chosen and Lost and The Damned. Gimme gimme gimme.
I'm not sure how I feel about all the Human stuff for Chaos to tell you the truth. Feels much less CSMy, but if that's the direction they'd like to go it would really diffrent them from other armies.
It also seems super odd, because GW has really pushed away from using the non- Chaos Marine style troops in DG and 1ksons (at least tried with DG).
Either way, it sure is a bit of an interesting development.
Dudeface wrote: Well, today's article and the codex cover for black templars seems to confirm phobos neophytes with bolt carbines and new sword brethren
Yes, and if that part of the leak is true, then the rest being true is far more likely. Chosen and Lost and The Damned. Gimme gimme gimme.
I'm not sure how I feel about all the Human stuff for Chaos to tell you the truth. Feels much less CSMy, but if that's the direction they'd like to go it would really diffrent them from other armies.
It also seems super odd, because GW has really pushed away from using the non- Chaos Marine style troops in DG and 1ksons (at least tried with DG).
Either way, it sure is a bit of an interesting development.
It's a return to the Lost and The Damned list from the Eye of Terror campaign book. Optional, and hopefully you can run them WITHOUT Astartes. Closest I'll probably come to my R&H this edition. I expect Traitor Guardsmen to be our equivalent to Poxwalkers and Tzaangors: better than Cultists, who are just cheap chaff, but not Astartes.
But the important part is its a throwback to editions BEFORE the godawful 4th edition CSM codex. Just like how Death Guard and Thousand Sons can buff their Champions with special abilities and relics. That's from 3.5 and earlier. I think they're finally getting inspiration from the Right Place, and not the horrible 4th edition CSM codex and what came after.
I'd rather see Lost & Damned as their own codex, but GSC hasn't exactly proven itself the most popular army around which might have spooked them into simply rolling all of their content into CSM, particularly if they've not been able to figure out a gameplay 'niche' for them that Guard and GSC don't already perform.
MajorWesJanson wrote: I'd like to see traitor guard as a codex supplement to codex Astra militarum
Honestly that would have been my choice as well, could even include a marine hq and elites ala vraks in the supplement.
Instead it sounds like the chaos forces depicted in the novels, mortal fodder with bitter veterans behind. Will be a chunky book though if true.
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Arbitrator wrote: I'd rather see Lost & Damned as their own codex, but GSC hasn't exactly proven itself the most popular army around which might have spooked them into simply rolling all of their content into CSM, particularly if they've not been able to figure out a gameplay 'niche' for them that Guard and GSC don't already perform.
Gsc has an utterly mental cash to point issue to contend with too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/16 16:16:33
Arbitrator wrote: I'd rather see Lost & Damned as their own codex, but GSC hasn't exactly proven itself the most popular army around which might have spooked them into simply rolling all of their content into CSM, particularly if they've not been able to figure out a gameplay 'niche' for them that Guard and GSC don't already perform.
Me too. But that doesn't look like what we'll be getting. So I really hope we get rules that allow us to go pure Lost and The Damned in the CSM codex if these leaks are true. I'll definitely miss my Russes and Valkyries though.
Arbitrator wrote: I'd rather see Lost & Damned as their own codex, but GSC hasn't exactly proven itself the most popular army around which might have spooked them into simply rolling all of their content into CSM, particularly if they've not been able to figure out a gameplay 'niche' for them that Guard and GSC don't already perform.
Me too. But that doesn't look like what we'll be getting. So I really hope we get rules that allow us to go pure Lost and The Damned in the CSM codex if these leaks are true. I'll definitely miss my Russes and Valkyries though.
My R&H have been used exclusively as Astra Militarum since 8th. If the new CSM book has rules for traitor Guard squads but no support for their vehicles (or Ogryns), I can't see that changing.
My pie-in-the-sky wish is that the CSM codex allows infantry squads to tag along as part of a ramshackle LatD list, while the Astra Militarum codex provides a regimental option explicitly for Chaos Guard so as to represent more organized forces.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/16 17:16:28
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts 
Watch Company Rho 1650pts
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Thousand Sons 4000+
