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I would agree that the main 4 get a full codex and the rest get a good amount of pages with some unique HQ and specials for their Legion

Fold 'em all into one book again and make it good.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Fold 'em all into one book again and make it good.

Well, they did that once.....and almost 20 years later, people are still complaining about it.

Edit: Wait. 2022 is the 20th anniversary. Could they? Would they?.......

Isn't 3.5 considered the greatest CSM codex of all time or something.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Isn't 3.5 considered the greatest CSM codex of all time or something.

By most CSM players, definitely. The "complainers" I was referring to were people who played other factions.

Still, interesting that gw is timing the release of the 9th edition CSM codex to coincide with the 20th anniversary of the release of 3.5. I'm sure it's a coincidence.

Another twist of the knife I'm sure. Perhaps I'll get the third article in 5 years polishing the "reroll failed morale" as an equitable layer of free rules.

Obviously a NL fanboy, due to username, but I feel like our bat wing boys lost flavor when they ditched Night Fighting rules.
Second favorite legion is Iron Warriors.

Only because it was my first ever army in 3rd edition. Iron Warriors.

I would love an alpha legion codex that presented at least 3 different armies, all with contradictory fluff, all presented at the truth. Fun armies and winding up the one source of the truth lore fanatics!

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I would love an alpha legion codex that presented at least 3 different armies, all with contradictory fluff, all presented at the truth. Fun armies and winding up the one source of the truth lore fanatics!

I'm trying to imagine that. Over the course of 18 months, 6 months apart a time, they release Codex: Alpha Legion. The later releases do not replace the other ones, and the covers are all the same (even if the content is completely different in each one).

Whenever asked which one is the latest one, GW staff are instructed to say "They all are!" and never elaborate. All are legal. Some get FAQs whilst others don't.

Chaos ensues.

It would be great if all of them could have a supplement, but I don't think there's enough model support for any of them to warrant it. The only thing that sets one Legion's models apart from another, currently, is their color scheme.

Black Legion has Abaddon and Haarken, but there's currently nothing for the other Legions.

 oni wrote:
It would be great if all of them could have a supplement, but I don't think there's enough model support for any of them to warrant it. The only thing that sets one Legion's models apart from another is their color scheme.

I mean, that broadly applies to a number of the Loyal SM Supplements as well - off-hand, Iron Hands had no model support prior to their supplement, while the Imperial Fists, Raven Guard and Salamanders had a single special character, while the White Scars had a special character and the Khan on Bike?

Ultras had a number of SCs and a unit or two, and the Angels and Wolves had plenty, but over half the Loyal FF Chapters had 0-2 models. They now have 1-3 models plus a Primaris conversion sprue, or 1-2 models plus a sprue if the proper versions of some of the characters are no longer available.

I'm fairly sure even the non-Cult Traitors could manage 1-2 models each.

Having said that, I can see an argument for using this cycle as an intermediate point - give each non-Cult, non-BL Traitor Legion a character or two and maybe a unit, but do a Traitor Legions supplement for them this time around. You then have the option on the next Codex cycle to spin them out further if inspiration strikes.

 Dysartes wrote:

 oni wrote:
It would be great if all of them could have a supplement, but I don't think there's enough model support for any of them to warrant it. The only thing that sets one Legion's models apart from another is their color scheme.

I mean, that broadly applies to a number of the Loyal SM Supplements as well - off-hand, Iron Hands had no model support prior to their supplement, while the Imperial Fists, Raven Guard and Salamanders had a single special character, while the White Scars had a special character and the Khan on Bike?

Ultras had a number of SCs and a unit or two, and the Angels and Wolves had plenty, but over half the Loyal FF Chapters had 0-2 models. They now have 1-3 models plus a Primaris conversion sprue, or 1-2 models plus a sprue if the proper versions of some of the characters are no longer available.

I'm fairly sure even the non-Cult Traitors could manage 1-2 models each.

Having said that, I can see an argument for using this cycle as an intermediate point - give each non-Cult, non-BL Traitor Legion a character or two and maybe a unit, but do a Traitor Legions supplement for them this time around. You then have the option on the next Codex cycle to spin them out further if inspiration strikes.

True, but the SM codex was getting fakin' THICK. GW needed to break out the SM Chapters lest the SM Codex be on par with the Core Rulebook for page count. HAHAHA.

But, yes, they could do a Character model and maybe some Legion specific bit packs. I'm totally on board with it. I just don't think that there's enough there to motivate GW to do it... yet.

None, I dislike splitting them up. It removes the fun of converting "counts-as" models for the other legion characters in way that they fit in your current army. :(

Also, dilutes variety in the main CSM codex.

If I'm reading GW.com's summary correctly - as I don't own the book - the current CSM 'dex contains 52 unit datasheets, plus 1 for the Noctilith Crown doohickey.

These cover seven Legions plus Renegades, so I assume include Abaddon, Fabulous Bile, Kharn, Lucius and Huron. There's a chance that Lucius, Bill or Kharn might leave the 'dex for a Legion-specific book, but we'll cross that bridge should it happen.

Do Cypher and Jumppack McSpearman (Haarken Worldclaimer?) have datasheets in there too?

In theory, a BL supplement picks up Abaddon and Kaarken, a Renegades supplement covers Cypher and Huron, leaving Lucius/Bill and Kharn for EC and WE respectively - unless Bill also goes in Renegades, to cover his PA force.

However, I don't see anything at all for Word Bearers, Iron Worriers, Night Lords or Alpha Legion - they'd be starting from a completely blank slate for supplements for them, in terms of current Legion-specific datasheets.

Mind you, as I noted above, that didn't stop an Iron Hands supplement from being created.

Let them have codexes when GW finally embraces digital rules and figures out how to release multiple books at once (more often than the rare double codex event)

There are already too many books in the rotation to give the necessary support to the existing armies, and GW wasting release slots on supplements is only making it worse.

Other than that, I find all but Night Lords quite interesting, definitely more than loyalists. Night lords seem oddly one-dimensional, but maybe I just haven't seen the right lore.

I think that the Word Bearers and Alpha Legion have the most design space to have their own codex For WB, it could be expanded much more heavily into entreating the chaos gods and be more of a Possesed and/or hybrid chaos/daemon style. For AL, there's not much in terms of stealth/recon for CSM, though they'd have to be carful to not just be Phobos but Chaos.

As for the others, I'd agree with H.B.M.C. and toss them all on one codex.

I mean a Word Bearer book could include Daemons and a rule that means your "army purity" isn't broken by bringing them.

Honestly I feel like something along the lines of the Psychic Awakening/Book of Fire stuff with some revamped Legion traits is all that’s needed to represent the various undivided legions. Other than MAYBE Alpha Legion, they’re just not divergent enough that their different fighting styles can’t be represented by Traits, Stratagems and Warlord Traits.

I see a lot of people commenting about Iron Warriors. Why? What do they do that isn’t covered in the core CSM book?
Daemon Engines? Check.
Power Armoured Infantry? Check.
Heavy Weapons? Check.
Terminators? Check.
Tanks? Check.

Maybe some artillery would be nice, but that can be covered by Forgeworld and isn’t a problem unique to Iron Warriors.

Night Lords are a little more divergent, but the core unit choices are the same. Power Armour, Terminators, Raptors, special weapons and veterans? The CSM codex covers this already. Terror tactics and night fighting could once again be represented by revamped stratagems, trait and warlord traits.

People will make the argument that Alpha Legion, Night Lords and Iron Warriors don’t worship the Chaos gods and therefore shouldn’t be part of the main CSM codex, but that makes zero sense to me! All three of those Legions have been shown to use the warp, and be exposed to corruption just the same as those who openly embrace it. Maybe not to the same degree, but arguing that Night Lords shouldn’t be using Daemon Princes and the like doesn’t make sense when we KNOW that they do. We know they suffer the temptations of the Dark Gods, whether they openly venerate them or not.

Alpha Legion are perhaps the least overtly Chaos of the bunch and make use of a lot more covert tactics. I think a few new units with a similar design philosophy as the Primaris Phobos stuff would be cool, but again they have been known to use the standard CSM arsenal when it comes to full-scale warfare.

It would be nice to see a few new specialist units or HQs, but enough to justify an entire codex? No I don’t think so. Maybe a supplement at best.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: I feel the core codex also represents renegades just fine. I’d like to see a few more “standard” Space Marine toys ported over with Chaosy variants, but that need not be JUST for the sake of renegades. A page of Renegade-Only stratagems and a few renegade-only warlord traits and relics to bring them on-par with Legions would be nice.

I'd also LOVE to see Fallen classed as "Renegades" and given the same goodies, but that's a whole other thing.

One thing I hadn't considered is that Legion books would give GW an excuse to release some more kits for things that are missing.

So Iron Warriors could come with a new 3x Oblit/Mutilator kit. Word Bearers could give us a separate Master of Possession and Greater Possessed. And so on.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
One thing I hadn't considered is that Legion books would give GW an excuse to release some more kits for things that are missing.

So Iron Warriors could come with a new 3x Oblit/Mutilator kit. Word Bearers could give us a separate Master of Possession and Greater Possessed. And so on.

Night lords some raptors with Nostraman chainglaives and some jetbikes/landspeeders

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Night lords some raptors with Nostraman chainglaives and some jetbikes/landspeeders

I was thinking less Legion-specific, and more the supplements being a good excuse to update existing kits (or release full kits for things that are still stuck in bundles). So in your Night Lord example, a new Chaos Marine Biker kit might be a good release to go alongside them.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
One thing I hadn't considered is that Legion books would give GW an excuse to release some more kits for things that are missing.

So Iron Warriors could come with a new 3x Oblit/Mutilator kit. Word Bearers could give us a separate Master of Possession and Greater Possessed. And so on.

Night lords some raptors with Nostraman chainglaives and some jetbikes/landspeeders

I could see Nostraman Chainglaives in a Night Lords upgrade kit. Make them an option for our Aspiring Champions in CSM, Raptor, and Havoc squads. And for an entire squad of Chosen, assuming that the new kit can swap arms with the others, which would make sense.

Kitane wrote:
Other than that, I find all but Night Lords quite interesting, definitely more than loyalists. Night lords seem oddly one-dimensional, but maybe I just haven't seen the right lore.

The ADB books did a good job as having them as embittered raiders steadily losing their souls (and minds) to Chaos, as murders and other unpleasant people with no real code beyond a loose affiliation with other members of the legion through not really much more than a shared legacy. Though at the end of the series the GW requirement to have them operate more as a legion seems to have them have the ground work done for bigger operations.

All of them. One big supplement for CSM.

I have said in a few places I would love to see a bit more variation in the troops section to allow you to run the gamut of reengage to dedicated god worshipper. Drawing on really the Deathwatch for inspiration. Ironic they capture a disparate warband better than Chaos does.

Would let you have the ability to build the types of squads you see in the novels as well as the more army style some have.

That sort of customisation, perhaps supported by legion specific strategms/rules that encouraged certain types of squad design would go a long way to see a bit more character on the tabletop.

I would love there to be the right choices and rules that reward thematic lists. Hell even one stereotype per legion. More than just a trait. So say Alpha Legion could be the GSC of the CSM world and could have allied Imperial Guard Detachments or be one of the legion able to take cultists as troops (not all should be able to). Word bearers could add a CSM to lead a unit of cultists and have demon units as elite slots on the table at the beginning of the game. Red Corsairs could get the Brotherhood of Veterans Stratagem from the deathwatch to show off their former members using the skills from their previous lives. Iron Warriors get to add Imperial artillery options (or at least basilisks) and so on.

Back to the core choices I would love the building blocks of my warband to be a cheapish renegades/legionnaires squad (your basic tactical CSM in a squad of 10-20 with a few weapon options - essentially your recent turncoats, new astartes or those still fighting in the old styles) and your more expensive chaotic/Veteran squad in a deathwatch style. So X strong Veteran unit with a variety of load out options, to which you can add terminators, bikers, possessed, raptors, Havocs and cult marines (if the squad worships that particular god, option for god specific boon unlocking the addition of appropriate cult marines.).

Cultists would be a way of adding flavour: troops choices for some legions (e.g. word bearers, alpha legion), their own category like transport unlocked by taking troops (buy 1 troop squad, can take 1 cultist squad etc.), or in a different category (10-20 strong human unit with mix of weapons options, some legions would allow you to add a CSM as a leader) for the legions where they are a rarer commodity.

There is certainly a lot that can be done with them, especially if you open up the tiny marine armours to them (representing the looting and theft following Cadia falling and a way of shifting old kits).

Mono god cult marine units go into elite slots unless your warlord is dedicated to a certain god in which case they become troops choices.

I would also shift regular tiny Marine gear into the list to show them with the spoils of recent war and the range of common heresy gear (so Whirlwinds, Flak Rhino's, landspeeders, etc.). A generic conversion sprue would give those models a new chaotic go at life.




So

PenitentJake wrote:
Man, the buzzkill in this thread!

I chose Alpha Legion; I'd like to see more interesting uses for cults, and I think the Crusade content could be fabulous.

For the record though, I am with you HBMC- I'd rather have WE and EC than any.

And Inquisitor Lord Kat, if you really ARE an Inquisitor Lord, why you wanna do 2/3 of your chambers militant like that?

First off, why would it be bad? I think the supplements are bad for Space Marines, and it would be undeniably awesome to have

Also, I don't consider Grey Knights to be Space Marines. They're "space marines" in the lore, but they're not a Space Marines Army unlike SW, BA, DA, and BT are/were, because there's so little overlap between the books. It's just the transports and dreadnoughts. So I don't have a problem with a separate Daemonhunters codex, though it ought to be a Daemonhunters codex and not a Grey Knights codex. That said, since in addition to GK, I also play Sisters and Space Marines, combining it with one of them [a singular Inquisition book would be nice, but I also acknowledge that it would basically be like the DE situation] would save me on buying books.

Anyway, back to the original point, there should be one codex for Space Marines and one codex for Chaos Space Marines, and definitely no supplements. The supplements are like the worst of all worlds: more things that are basically the same with minor differences, more buckets of free special rules, and I now have to buy twice as many books for one faction. I also don't think there should be Chapter or Legion tactics, or any other subfaction rules packages like super doctrines or special relics and warlord traits. [In that vein, I also don't think there should even be relics or warlord traits]

Pretty long post to say "I don't like fun".
It's not even like subfaction rules are a new or particularly broken system. There will maybe be one or two exceptional cases per Codex in a given Edition.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
Man, the buzzkill in this thread!

I chose Alpha Legion; I'd like to see more interesting uses for cults, and I think the Crusade content could be fabulous.

For the record though, I am with you HBMC- I'd rather have WE and EC than any.

And Inquisitor Lord Kat, if you really ARE an Inquisitor Lord, why you wanna do 2/3 of your chambers militant like that?

First off, why would it be bad? I think the supplements are bad for Space Marines, and it would be undeniably awesome to have

Also, I don't consider Grey Knights to be Space Marines. They're "space marines" in the lore, but they're not a Space Marines Army unlike SW, BA, DA, and BT are/were, because there's so little overlap between the books. It's just the transports and dreadnoughts. So I don't have a problem with a separate Daemonhunters codex, though it ought to be a Daemonhunters codex and not a Grey Knights codex. That said, since in addition to GK, I also play Sisters and Space Marines, combining it with one of them [a singular Inquisition book would be nice, but I also acknowledge that it would basically be like the DE situation] would save me on buying books.

Anyway, back to the original point, there should be one codex for Space Marines and one codex for Chaos Space Marines, and definitely no supplements. The supplements are like the worst of all worlds: more things that are basically the same with minor differences, more buckets of free special rules, and I now have to buy twice as many books for one faction. I also don't think there should be Chapter or Legion tactics, or any other subfaction rules packages like super doctrines or special relics and warlord traits. [In that vein, I also don't think there should even be relics or warlord traits]

I was pretty much joking with you...

But to unpack it a bit, I do really like the Deathwatch supplement, and I like it specifically because it makes Ordo Xenos fun to play. Without the deathwatch supplement, Ordo Xenos don't have enough flavour. Now that there are 4 different types of DW Kill Teams, there's really no way you could put the Death Watch back into the Marine dex. A single book for all chapters might have had enough room to include rules for Proteus Teams, but that would be it.

If you're not counting GK as marine, well we're cool there, because Malleus gets to keep the full might of its Chamber. And sister are fine too.

BTW, a combat squaded Proteus team of ten packed into a Corvus Blackstar with Draxus and a Watchmaster is a sexy little slice of "Death to the Alien" in a convenient little package. It's exactly the kind of thing you could write stories about- there's just so much flavour there to play with. Fold DW back into the marine dex and watch it turn to $#!+ right before your eyes.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
None of them.

Put 'em all in one Codex. Leave full Codices to the Cult Legions.

Agreed.