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2021/08/23 09:20:03
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
gungo wrote: And the psyker Killrig gets to cast 2 powers automatically including smite and most of thier powers are only a warp charge 6 including the squig buffing power. I don’t really see an issue with being able to cast stuff.
Ah, I was under the impression that you had to be within range of something to actually cast the power, but you can just roll to cast for the main gun and fail to select a target. It cannot target itself with the squig buff though.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2021/08/23 13:32:18
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
The blood axe clan as a whole as improved, but the kulture is unchanged. I see zero reason why it suddenly should go up, especially that far, and your only real argument is "tournaments!!!". And just for the record, having seen tournament results without providing links is not proof.
So either provide some actual reasoning why a worthless trait has jumped from red to green overnight despite not changing, or stop being a whiney about it. It's always easy to take a gak on other people's work and not invest any yourself.
There's an ork player taking 1st with mono blood axe buggy spam. But he specializes in spam.
I'm gona participate in an escalating pts tourney next month if I manage to finish buggies in time. Will take blood axes to feel all the nuances myself. I think that the added versatility is gona be good for scrap jets. Being able to shoot + charge + fall back and shoot again can be quite helpful. But we'll see. It's gona start small with 500 and than go to 1k and than 1500. My collection of buggies is not large enough for 2k but it's possible to finish up 4 scrap jets and 2 squig buggies in time.
I'll write how it goes - good or bad.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/23 13:39:18
2021/08/23 13:39:20
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2021/08/23 13:41:17
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
So he is putting the units of scrapjets into reserves and comes out of it with ramming speed?
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2021/08/23 14:04:12
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Jidmah wrote: It's always easy to take a gak on other people's work and not invest any yourself.
I'm not trying to devalue what you're doing. Trying to provide arguments. Blood axes are my favorite clan and for once in it's recent history it has some great interactions that are actually worth bringing in our competitive meta.
And so, I come here to share my joy, and see them red. Which makes me a very sad war boss. Don't break me 'eart, man.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/23 14:05:09
2021/08/23 14:10:06
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
gungo wrote: And the psyker Killrig gets to cast 2 powers automatically including smite and most of thier powers are only a warp charge 6 including the squig buffing power. I don’t really see an issue with being able to cast stuff.
Ah, I was under the impression that you had to be within range of something to actually cast the power, but you can just roll to cast for the main gun and fail to select a target. It cannot target itself with the squig buff though.
While your defensive sarcasm is great I’m not talking crap about your list I’m providing feedback as you asked… the 12in squig buffing power means you are likely near one of your units but regardless the vast majority of thier powers are 18 inches (Minus frazzle). That isn’t exactly hard to get on a large unit that wants to get close and moves 12in. And even if you fail to cast both psychic powers the main gun is still +1 to hit vs vehicles and monsters..
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/23 14:15:18
2021/08/23 14:13:43
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Hah, my orks used to be all blood axes as well, I know the pain. That's the primary reason why I did so many games with bloodaxe buggies before eventually moving on to another clan.
Keep in mind that red applies to the kultur only. A clan is always the sum of its parts, blood axes have a great stratagem now, a decent relic, a decent named character and an extremely awesome warlord trait.
If you go through the clans and find an average color for all of them, most will probably very similar to each other.
gungo wrote: And the psyker Killrig gets to cast 2 powers automatically including smite and most of thier powers are only a warp charge 6 including the squig buffing power. I don’t really see an issue with being able to cast stuff.
Ah, I was under the impression that you had to be within range of something to actually cast the power, but you can just roll to cast for the main gun and fail to select a target. It cannot target itself with the squig buff though.
While your defensive sarcasm is great I’m not talking crap about your list I’m providing feedback as you asked… the 12in squig buffing power means you are likely near one of your units but regardless the vast majority of thier powers are 18 inches (Minus frazzle). That isn’t exactly hard to get on a large unit that wants to get close and moves 12in.
I wasn't being sarcastic - unless I'm missing something "picking the target" happens after manifesting the power. Which means you can just roll for the heck of it and then fail to find a target.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/23 14:15:01
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2021/08/23 14:17:22
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
on that note if you averaged all the klan colors they'd probably all be cyan.
Its almost like no single klan is ultimately the best, it just largely depends on your playstyle/preferences since obviously some klans are superior to others in certain areas (badmoonz using squigboyz for instance = LOL)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/23 14:17:39
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
2021/08/23 14:19:17
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Beastboss on Squigosaur [8 PL, -2CP, 145pts]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Beastchoppa, Headwoppa’s Killchoppa, Slugga, Squigosaur’s Jaws, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP]
Beastboss on Squigosaur [8 PL, -2CP, 145pts]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Beastchoppa, Headwoppa’s Killchoppa, Slugga, Squigosaur’s Jaws, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP]
I’m cool with the ratings now was mostly just confused w wazbom being higher then the rig. When it did less for more points. And I’m not saying the rig is a must take. Outside of buggy spam it becomes a big target.
2021/08/23 14:36:10
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
gungo wrote: I’m cool with the ratings now was mostly just confused w wazbom being higher then the rig. When it did less for more points. And I’m not saying the rig is a must take. Outside of buggy spam it becomes a big target.
I changed that two days ago *whacks gungo with a grot prod*
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2021/08/23 14:43:03
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
So they gained an extra wound, the ability to move, more shots at 24" and a big shoota for two points. That's not a nerf. The new KMB for just 5 points also isn't a terrible deal.
They gained an extra wound, the ability to move, more reliable shots at 24' and a big shoota for 2pts. They also got beaten to death with Morale, lost ranged dmg, and are just as bad as last edition because they are massively over priced for very little dmg output. 5 lootas at max range are 8 shots, 2.66 hits and against a Marine profile that is 1.7 dead Marines, for 85pts that is not a good return on investment. And if you really want to move them into 24' range they will die on your opponents turn. GW has effectively turned a ranged heavy support unit into a crappier version of a suicide unit. GW has Accidentally? forced Lootas into the same category as tankbustas. The "new" KMB for just 5pts isn't a terrible upgrade...except you are already paying 17pts for the Spanner...which is effectively the exact same as the 11pt Burna Spanner. So the Burna spanner armed with a KMB is 16pts, the Loota Spanner is 22pts. While Burna's aren't super competitive in my opinion (way better than before mind you) they are absolutely the better option if you really want some KMBs.
Jidmah wrote: Outside of the lootastar, which was already dead an buried with the start of 9th, there was no reason to field lootas as anything but MSU already. In fact, 9 models was optimal because of blasts and the clever spanna stratagem. So when you lost 3 lootas for the 50% chance to fail you already were below the ld6 threshold, meaning mob rule actually got better for lootas. But alas, lootas never really benefited from mob rule to begin with because they were nowhere near large mobs or inside transports for most of the game.
I really want to point this out. Yes, Lootas were DEAD AND BURIED as soon as the loota bomb went away. Why? Because LOOTAS WERE TRASH! something I had been saying for all of 8th edition. If you didn't invest all your CP into them, you were better off not taking them at all. So think about that, A loota which had better ranged firepower at 25-48' range than it does now was not worth taking at all because of how crap it was. So GW addressed this by....reducing its max range dmg, giving it a paltry 3ppm price cut (15%) getting rid of the stratagems which the Lootas used and required you to take a spanner for hte same price even though it didn't wield the same weapon system...And it provides zero benefit to the mob unlike a Sgt in a Devastator squad which at least gives one model better BS. And no, Mob rule/leadership has not gotten better for lootas, because if nothing else there was usually a mob of something else nearby or failing that a character which could kill D3 models to auto-pass morale, where as now you have to pay 2CP for the honor of killing your own models
Jidmah wrote: I'm not willing to math that out in detail, but I'm sure the one big shoota hit amounts to some damage as well which is only slightly worse than the .5555 lota hits lost.
The Big shoota is out of range for the first 12', when it is in range its 1 hit at S5 no AP 1dmg, so no, it does not account for the 0.55 lost loota hits. The Big shoota is just another example of GW not understanding the ork army. GET STUCK IN AND GET 5 SHOTS! Also, no advancing and shooting. WTF!? Regardless, we can all at least agree the spanner is just crap
Jidmah wrote: They didn't. They were 5 points before and are now slightly harder get through if you want to get to the unit behind it.
Lootas weren't taken after the loota bomb went away, we have all agreed on that, and when it went away grots were 3ppm and considered over priced. Grots going to 5ppm is a nerf in itself, and for the lootas means you really can't afford to foot slog them. Especially with the grots abysmal leadership and the fact that old Grot shields meant you had to wound the Loota on its T4 defensive profile where as now you have to target the grot first on its T3 profile.
Jidmah wrote: Sorry, but this is a bit to hand-wavey. Even if you completely ignore anything but damage output (which is flawed by itself already), at 24" you now get 5 loota hits instead of 3 for your 100/102 points plus 1 or 1.4444 big shoota hits. In addition, lootas can now move to line up shots without investing CP or losing half their firepower, so you also gain
Again, going back to the main premise that nobody took Lootas after the Loota bomb went away, if you are now required to put Lootas in a 70pt trukk to get any hope out of them past turn 1 you have just been nerfed, especially since the trukk itself does nothing outside of protection and movement. Sadly, they even got rid of the loot it strat so if hte trukk explodes you can give the unit inside +1 Armor. As far as 24' range getting 5 hits. Yes but you could do that from max range with old lootas, albeit it only 1/3rd of the time. The increase in reliability is nice, don't get me wrong, I just don't think it scaled with how deadly and durable the game has become. How many targets now have -1dmg or ignore the first pip of AP? Heck, Ironically, Ramshackle is ideally suited to weakening Auto-cannons But I will readily admit that lootas are now more foot mobile...but that is fairly irrelevant because again, you can't foot slog them and hope they survive longer than 1 turn.
Jidmah wrote: A spanner with KMB gets .66 hits on average with the KMB and has a 30.55% chance to kill himself. From a pure damage perspective, a KMB is superior to a deff gun, but only a valid choice if you put them into a trukk. As for the big shoota, according to your own calculations it's an extra wound for 2 points that sometimes add damage and can repair vehicles. An 8th edition ammo runt for 2 points would have been a no-brainer auto-take update.
It is in fact an extra wound, but its also not because as we all agree, lootas were CRAP in 8th and only competitive in 8th with the loota bomb which was good IN SPITE OF how bad lootas were as opposed to because of how good they were. So giving them what amounts to a 2pt extra wound doesn't fix their inherent problem which is being way to fragile while also not being able to put out enough dakka to make them worth taking.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/23 14:47:33
Well, they haven't changed much outside of gaining cultures, but I can't wait to try them out as bad moons.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2021/08/23 15:18:36
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Jidmah wrote: Well, they haven't changed much outside of gaining cultures, but I can't wait to try them out as bad moons.
Yeah, having a functional 30" range with a smaller board size makes them much easier to park in a firing lane and not have to move for most of the game. Showin Off is also not a bad strat to use on them assuming you've been forced out of your transport, combo's decently well with Shoot Twice FG strat.
2021/08/23 15:40:55
Subject: Re:Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
@Semper: I think you are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. Lootas aren't suddenly great, I think we mathed that out together. But they are better now than before. And they were literally never great at shooting marines, so please stop bringing that up. You are also reducing your entire argument to 5 lootas shooting in the 36-48" corridor, which has already been pointed out be a largely irrelevant edge case.
And I do think that T5, being able to move and an extra wound solve some problems for them. Unlike boyz, they can just get around any morale issues by fielding max units of 8-9, which is optimal anyways to dodge the second spanna.
Last but not least your points evaluation is flawed. If you assume a unit of 9, it now has 8 lootas for 153. Before 8 lootas were 160. So if you do it right, you get more firepower, more wounds, more toughness and more flexibility for less points while being able to ignore the loss of old mob rule and potentially benefit from the new one. You could even toss in a KMB and still pay less than you did before.
In regards to stratagems, moar dakka can add .3333 hits per loota in that zone you always expect them to be in (old moar dakka was .1111 hits per loota), the bad moonz stratagem adds .3333 hits per loota (old shoot twice one added .6666 hits per loota) but also costs half as many CP and the deff skulls wreckas side-graded from re-rolls to +1 to wound.
You also no longer need to pay CP to re-roll the number of hits or for clever spanna.
Basically instead of paying 5 CP for 1.297 extra hits per loota (0.2594 per CP), you now get 0.8333 extra hits per lootas for just 3 CP (0.2777 hits per CP).
Bottom line, there is no objective evidence of lootas being nerfed. And once again, I do not consider them great, have a look at what other units sit around in the blue category. In my mind, that category was the "works well in crusade" bucket.
The finally can contribute in a meaningful way to your army, and there are definitely multiple units which can do the same thing much better - but those aren't in the blue category.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2021/08/23 16:01:07
Subject: Re:Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
@Semper: I think you are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. Lootas aren't suddenly great, I think we mathed that out together. But they are better now than before. And they were literally never great at shooting marines, so please stop bringing that up. You are also reducing your entire argument to 5 lootas shooting in the 36-48" corridor, which has already been pointed out be a largely irrelevant edge case.
And I do think that T5, being able to move and an extra wound solve some problems for them. Unlike boyz, they can just get around any morale issues by fielding max units of 8-9, which is optimal anyways to dodge the second spanna.
Last but not least your points evaluation is flawed. If you assume a unit of 9, it now has 8 lootas for 153. Before 8 lootas were 160. So if you do it right, you get more firepower, more wounds, more toughness and more flexibility for less points while being able to ignore the loss of old mob rule and potentially benefit from the new one. You could even toss in a KMB and still pay less than you did before.
In regards to stratagems, moar dakka can add .3333 hits per loota in that zone you always expect them to be in (old moar dakka was .1111 hits per loota), the bad moonz stratagem adds .3333 hits per loota (old shoot twice one added .6666 hits per loota) but also costs half as many CP and the deff skulls wreckas side-graded from re-rolls to +1 to wound.
You also no longer need to pay CP to re-roll the number of hits or for clever spanna.
Basically instead of paying 5 CP for 1.297 extra hits per loota (0.2594 per CP), you now get 0.8333 extra hits per lootas for just 3 CP (0.2777 hits per CP).
Bottom line, there is no objective evidence of lootas being nerfed. And once again, I do not consider them great, have a look at what other units sit around in the blue category. In my mind, that category was the "works well in crusade" bucket.
The finally can contribute in a meaningful way to your army, and there are definitely multiple units which can do the same thing much better - but those aren't in the blue category.
I think you are misunderstanding me entirely. You are the one who bumped them up a tier. Specifically from "Yellow Tier - These do work in general but either cost too much for what they do or lock you out of bringing much better choices." to "Blue Tier - These do what they are supposed to do, but aren't the most competitive options for their roles."
They lost maximum dmg output, they lost long range dmg they lost morale they lost out in general. Yes they gained more reliable 2 shots, but it averaged 2.33 (including DDD) already. Even when it rolled a 1-2 it averaged 1.16 shots, and you as often rolled a 5 or 6 so you went up to 3.5 shots. Now it maxes out at 3 shots but only at half range and yes this is more reliable, it doesn't help you enough in my opinion to justify bumping it up a tier.
This is what you said of Lootas.
Lootas Lootas can now move and shoot, get a guaranteed two shots plus another one at half range but have to take mandatory spannas per 5. This allows them to rider transports without losing firepower, which they definitely should because they still die like flies despite T5.
Moving is largely irrelevant since you can't footslog them because they die immediately. Guaranteed 2 shots is a reliability buff, but on average its LESS shots than before except at Half range which is your next point. You mention the transports which I agree 100% in, but that is fringe at best since the trukk also went up in price and at that point you are paying for a unit of lootas and a 70pt bunker for it to drive around in.
I think lootas were trash tier in 8th after loota bomb went away...i don't see them as any better now. And your arguments that they are haven't remotely convinced me otherwise. If anything its just you arguing that since they can get guaranteed 3 shots while riding in a trukk they are better...but I could pay CP to let them shoot twice before, now I can't. I would argue the difference between 2 CP and 70pts is about the same.
SemperMortis wrote: I think you are misunderstanding me entirely. You are the one who bumped them up a tier. Specifically from "Yellow Tier - These do work in general but either cost too much for what they do or lock you out of bringing much better choices." to "Blue Tier - These do what they are supposed to do, but aren't the most competitive options for their roles."
They lost maximum dmg output, they lost long range dmg they lost morale they lost out in general. Yes they gained more reliable 2 shots, but it averaged 2.33 (including DDD) already. Even when it rolled a 1-2 it averaged 1.16 shots, and you as often rolled a 5 or 6 so you went up to 3.5 shots. Now it maxes out at 3 shots but only at half range and yes this is more reliable, it doesn't help you enough in my opinion to justify bumping it up a tier.
This is what you said of Lootas.
Lootas Lootas can now move and shoot, get a guaranteed two shots plus another one at half range but have to take mandatory spannas per 5. This allows them to rider transports without losing firepower, which they definitely should because they still die like flies despite T5.
Moving is largely irrelevant since you can't footslog them because they die immediately. Guaranteed 2 shots is a reliability buff, but on average its LESS shots than before except at Half range which is your next point. You mention the transports which I agree 100% in, but that is fringe at best since the trukk also went up in price and at that point you are paying for a unit of lootas and a 70pt bunker for it to drive around in.
I think lootas were trash tier in 8th after loota bomb went away...i don't see them as any better now. And your arguments that they are haven't remotely convinced me otherwise. If anything its just you arguing that since they can get guaranteed 3 shots while riding in a trukk they are better...but I could pay CP to let them shoot twice before, now I can't. I would argue the difference between 2 CP and 70pts is about the same.
Lootas defintely got better as a standalone unit. They don't eat all of your CP any more, and no longer need a load of gretchin babysitters. Granted, they aren't going to sit behind grots and vaporise half of your opponents army any more, but we didn't have that at the start of 9th anyway and have other units for that, and being more consistent on their own has made them go from being a bad choice to a niche unit.
Them being able to move and shoot without penalty is also a pretty big deal, because when your targets wander out of line of sight they can just move over and keep shooting at full effect. No one is expecting them to footslog up the board with your other infantry because that's dumb. And the half range thing is still basically most of the board these days.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/23 16:13:28
2021/08/23 16:16:39
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Lootas defintely got better as a standalone unit. They don't eat all of your CP any more, and no longer need a load of gretchin babysitters. Granted, they aren't going to sit behind grots and vaporise half of your opponents army any more, but we didn't have that at the start of 9th anyway and have other units for that, and being more consistent on their own has made them go from being a bad choice to a niche unit.
Them being able to move and shoot without penalty is also a pretty big deal, because when your targets wander out of line of sight they can just move over and keep shooting at full effect. No one is expecting them to footslog up the board with your other infantry because that's dumb. And the half range thing is still basically most of the board these days.
The point of the tier system is to rate them strictly in a competitive mindset. I don't see them as anymore competitive. And as you pointed out "they got better as a standalone unit" but only at short range and they got SIGNIFICANTLY worse in terms of buffing potential. So who cares that they got marginally better without buffs at short range when nobody is going to take them anyway because they actually got significantly worse in terms of dmg potential.
Deffguns definitely needed some oomph on their new Dakka profile. Autocannon type weapons have lost a lot of sheen lately with all the -1 damage sources out there these days, so an entire unit armed with them (with Ork BS) is not very intimidating. Dakka 4/3 or even 5/3 was probably a better option to make them a worthy threat.
And I hadn't considered that price discrepancy for KMB spanners, just ridiculous.
2021/08/23 16:45:15
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Madjob wrote: Deffguns definitely needed some oomph on their new Dakka profile. Autocannon type weapons have lost a lot of sheen lately with all the -1 damage sources out there these days, so an entire unit armed with them (with Ork BS) is not very intimidating. Dakka 4/3 or even 5/3 was probably a better option to make them a worthy threat.
And I hadn't considered that price discrepancy for KMB spanners, just ridiculous.
I honestly feel like GW doesn't have any Ork players on their rules team, or if they do, they are the type of player who thinks Orkz shouldn't be competitive but just fluffy and fun and die in droves as a great NPC race to beat on to really "Forge that narrative".
Lootas defintely got better as a standalone unit. They don't eat all of your CP any more, and no longer need a load of gretchin babysitters. Granted, they aren't going to sit behind grots and vaporise half of your opponents army any more, but we didn't have that at the start of 9th anyway and have other units for that, and being more consistent on their own has made them go from being a bad choice to a niche unit.
Them being able to move and shoot without penalty is also a pretty big deal, because when your targets wander out of line of sight they can just move over and keep shooting at full effect. No one is expecting them to footslog up the board with your other infantry because that's dumb. And the half range thing is still basically most of the board these days.
The point of the tier system is to rate them strictly in a competitive mindset. I don't see them as anymore competitive. And as you pointed out "they got better as a standalone unit" but only at short range and they got SIGNIFICANTLY worse in terms of buffing potential. So who cares that they got marginally better without buffs at short range when nobody is going to take them anyway because they actually got significantly worse in terms of dmg potential.
I completely agree with you about them not being a competitive unit, their battlefield role is done by a single buggy and because of all the other things you get on a buggy profile the loota mob has no reason to be taken unlesss you have serious issues about taking any kind of vehicle in your army.
A lot of things lost their buffing potential as well, we basically lost most of our buffs except for Flash gitz shooting twice and a thousand sources of +1 to hit for some bizarre reason.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/23 17:22:56
2021/08/23 17:48:29
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
If we're talking proposed rules, i'd make lootas heavy 2 with d3 damage for 13ppm with no mandatory mek and flashgitz Dakka 5/3 with their strat giving +1d and AP instead of shoot twice. This way we'd have one ranged cheap-ish unit that doesn't deal much damage but can sit all across the board in some ruin dropping autocannon-like pod shots with 1 in 3 chance to deal 2 damage to -1d opponents that we face a lot. And another more elite unit that wants to get closer and can make their guns extremely deadly for 2cp and not just vs the closest opponent. But that'd force them to disembark ans get smoked next turn. But they'd not loose their deadliness for moving.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thing about mini meks. They're characters, are one of the cheapest around and can also perform actions. Now with how look out sir works, you can have a unit of grots hidden out of Los while mek can perform actions in the open and while he is within 3 of grots and further from the enemy than ANY other friendly unit - not necessarily this grots, he can just hold a point with no danger of being shot to bits.
Now that doesn't work every time and with every objective but it's very common in tourney makes to have some Los just close to a point but out of it's reach for a regular squad. But if you add this 3", you can so it. And it can be the thing earning you victory.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/23 19:22:23
2021/08/23 19:29:51
Subject: Re:Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Hi
I am in a sort of dilemma and would be happy for some input from you guys.
I plan to run a Groff list with multiple Stormboyz and Kommandos units. the problem is what HQ to choose... This is for a 1000-1500 points list. At first I looked into the Warboss or Warboss in Mega Armour in order to get access to the +1 to hit aura, but both these options are rather slow so I am not sure that these are very good. It does not help to run them as Trukkboyz since this will mess up their keywords so that the other units wont get the to-hit bonus anyway. Alternatively I could run the Squig-Boss, it a bigger threat but will probably not be able to charge the first turn anyway and will not give any to-hit bonus to the named units. Third option is to use Ghazghull but this looks like the least appealing option for me.
Cheers!
2021/08/23 19:31:16
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang. 
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys 
9500p fullpaint orks ready to krump!
