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Yes, I agree, but the interaction rather unintuitive and usually explicitly GW spells out such odd cases.

The AP thing is a bit more unclear, because there are valid reason to assume that the modifier is not just "-1 AP" but "-1 AP for bikes and vehicles", which would then not apply to INFANTRY or MONSTER.

Shoota boyz could really use some improvements, giving Trukkboyz' shooting -1 AP on the Speedwaagh turn while embarked would make them a lot more usable for supporting a light vehicle list.

Beardedragon wrote:


I know we are waiting for an FAQ to shed light on the case but it seems pretty clear that right now thats how it works. I have not been playing it that way.

You are arguing that trukk boys should be able to enter trukks RAI, and this makes perfect sense, but then you continue on how if you play it that way, you can obtain a RAW rule interaction which doesn't seem RAI. Or in other words, your argument is along the lines of "if I don't follow the rules, this is how the rules play out". It will depend entirely on how they errata the trukk boys rule. E.g. they could do something like the trukk boys being allowed to designate a single trukk in their detachment to be able to trainsport them but nothing else. Of course they can also change the rule to work like you are stating, but that really just makes it wish listing more than a strategy.

ThePauliPrinciple wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:


I know we are waiting for an FAQ to shed light on the case but it seems pretty clear that right now thats how it works. I have not been playing it that way.

You are arguing that trukk boys should be able to enter trukks RAI, and this makes perfect sense, but then you continue on how if you play it that way, you can obtain a RAW rule interaction which doesn't seem RAI. Or in other words, your argument is along the lines of "if I don't follow the rules, this is how the rules play out". It will depend entirely on how they errata the trukk boys rule. E.g. they could do something like the trukk boys being allowed to designate a single trukk in their detachment to be able to trainsport them but nothing else. Of course they can also change the rule to work like you are stating, but that really just makes it wish listing more than a strategy.

Well why wouldnt i? Its pretty clear that rules as intended is that you can disembark a unit after the trukk has moved, and said trukk can get +1 to its shooting. Unlike many issues in our codex, The biggest feth up is the idea that trukk boys cant go inside trukks. That is a blatant mistake that will get an FAQ.

The idea that the boys inside would hit on a +4 when they shoot isnt too far fetched as we must assume that they know their own rules. They made their own rare rules and they even include a +1 to hit as an example. basically at that point everything points towards the boys getting +1 to hit when shooting while remaining inside. The only point we can make that should advocate for this not working, is that kulture thing with trukkboys is already a bit messed up, and GW regularly feths up their own rare rules and write incoherent things.

If the boys arent meant to get +1 to hit to ranged attacks when inside the trukk then they fethed up big time because again, the +1 to hit is even included in the example given by themselves. I dont feel like its really a question if units embarked on a trukk boys trukk should get +1 to hit, because they themselves have made clear examples that they should.

But as Jidmah said, what is and what isnt a modifier? Do they also get -1AP on a speedwaagh? technically sure but we do lack a modifier list to really know. So its unclear.

You cant look at every single rule or rare rule that tells you that RAW you can do something and wait for FAQs to play the game. Like makari being able to use grot shields. that sounds like an oversight that can easily be done by putting "non character" on the stratagem. I dont use said stratagem on Makari. The entire codex is in a limbo where things might work and might NOT work.


The only issue i see with Trukkboys is how the trukk and the infantry going in to it interacts with klan kulture, because right now you could put a trukk boy warboss in the trukk, add 10 tankbustas who are normal bad moon, and get +1 to your tankbustas because the warboss gives the trukk +1. That interaction between klans and what works and dont, that i can see being an issue. So that a trukk boy warboss and bad moon tankbustas might not be able to enter a bad moon trukk.

But it doesnt seem to be an issue, that a warboss alone in a trukk would get +1 to hit because the trukk is given +1 to hit. Because as i said, they themselves used +1 to hit as an example. With even an example to prove your point not even a TO would be able to point at that and say: nah.

Furthermore, what even was the point of given the trukk +1 to hit? Who gives a feth about +1 to hit on a single big shoota. Its probably to make this interaction that the models inside get +1 to hit as well. And yes i said probably because no one knows what GW is thinking. But i dont intend not giving my boys +1 to hit when i have an example backing me up.

I'm fairly sure that they will just change the transport rule to say "Specialist Ladz" instead of FLASH GITS.

 Jidmah wrote:
I'm fairly sure that they will just change the transport rule to say "Specialist Ladz" instead of FLASH GITS.

yea im curious if they allow a bad moon trukk to be carrying trukk boys boys, and a bad moon Big Mek with shiny shoota and tellyport blasta.


But atm i have no idea how they will fix it. Because the trukk remains <Klan> so they should naturally keep being able to ferry <Klan> members like a big Mek. So in the end, the trukk basically carries.. two klans atm.

In my current freebootas list i have Trukk boys with a big mek with shiny shoota and Tellyport blasta. I didnt give him +1 to hit because i forgot about the interaction, but they did ride together. only difference was my big mek never jumped out after the trukk had moved as only the boys could.

 Jidmah wrote:
Does it work well for you? I eventually stopped using it, because it's just to easy for other armies to tear them down.

For the Mortarion math did you consider the 5+++, -1 to hit and anti-rerolls aura?
But yes, rokkits and MW are great against him in general. You just need to keep in mind the variance of three 4+ rolls, there is a good chance that you fail all of them and just have put three buggies to the scythe.

The skrapjets was only buffed with speedwaagh and Mortarion did not have -1 to hit.

Freeboota skrapjet with sttacked hits will do better in shooting but it will still have around 1/3 of it's damage output in mellee.

I started calculations cause there are a couple dg players that run tough lists with mortarion in 1k pt games and I wanted to calculate what can I expect to achieve if I decide to attack him. And once again, I'm not saying it's a good idea to charge Mortarion, you're better off going in all directions, scoring and trying to kill the rest of the list which is still not easy - and you need every bit possible to do it in time. So, just pointing out that we can squeeze even more out of our jets - not just shooting. But mellee is indeed quite swingy. I think there will be plenty of targets for buggy charges and having an option to do against stuff that won't wreck your vehicle in return. And divinng right in without fear of getting bogged down in mellee is a nice thing to consider.

So far, I have not tried any of the buggies yet as they are still under construction but, as I've said previously, I'm gona run blood axes in an escalating league and see how it goes. My initial thought was to run death skulls (as it's an obvious choice for a couple of beat re rolls and mw protection) as we're starting at 500 pts, than 1k and that's clearly not freebootas league...but than I thought, why not go for my favorite clan - blood axes! And than,after some re-reading of the rules and calculations I've come to a conclusion that it might not just be a fluffy choice. It might end up pretty competitive.

If you're going to be butting heads with dudes that are playing Mortarion at 1k, take Ghaz, give him some Fists of Gork and knock 7 bells out of him. Messing about trying to kite on a 4x4 board or plinking wounds off is an exercise in futility.

 Jidmah wrote:
Does it work well for you? I eventually stopped using it, because it's just to easy for other armies to tear them down.

Banners works but depend heavily on the mission, opponent and your list of course.

Following is valid for high mobile buggy list (with the old codex)

1. Mission - you need 6 objective mission and just some of them works well - Overrun is the best. Easy to score 3VP on beginning of 2nd turn.
2. Opponent - armies that tend to charge you T1 and make a mess in your deploy = banners have a problem. Better play Octarius and Behind enemy lines to make them to care about their deploy. However, if your opponent tends to camp in his deploy or prefer shooting over CC, Banners makes him to go front and fight for every objective. Single commandos dropped from the sky can rise the banner and the banner scores VP even if opponent shoot kommandos down. Opponent needs to go to this objective and take it. This secondary is very much a “make him do what I want” type of secondary.

I use it about 30% of the games and if I take them, works mostly very good.

Tumbleweed wrote:
If you're going to be butting heads with dudes that are playing Mortarion at 1k, take Ghaz, give him some Fists of Gork and knock 7 bells out of him. Messing about trying to kite on a 4x4 board or plinking wounds off is an exercise in futility.

I don't own Ghaz but I have a friend that we often share collection with who is planning to buy Ghaz + Makari. But anyway, Ghaz is not that great vs mort. If you calculate his damage output - it's pretty comparable with a skeapjet's damage output in mellee. Point for point. Ghaz will deal 4-5 damage to mort in mellee, while 3 skrapjets will deal around 3-4. Pretty comparable.

 koooaei wrote:
And once again, I'm not saying it's a good idea to charge Mortarion, you're better off going in all directions, scoring and trying to kill the rest of the list which is still not easy - and you need every bit possible to do it in time.

Oh, no, if you get to finish Mortarion, you should totally do that. I have run him quite a bit myself, and depending on the objective setup of the mission you are playing, you simply can't win by scattering. But if you do charge him for the rams, you definitely need to have a plan B for when it fails, otherwise you most likely have thrown the game.

So far, I have not tried any of the buggies yet as they are still under construction but, as I've said previously, I'm gona run blood axes in an escalating league and see how it goes. My initial thought was to run death skulls (as it's an obvious choice for a couple of beat re rolls and mw protection) as we're starting at 500 pts, than 1k and that's clearly not freebootas league...but than I thought, why not go for my favorite clan - blood axes! And than,after some re-reading of the rules and calculations I've come to a conclusion that it might not just be a fluffy choice. It might end up pretty competitive.

If you bring a unit that can benefit from the BA stratagem (burnas?), it might even be quite powerful in small games. I often play 500 and 1000 points currently because our gaming location is on lockdown and I have no full sized gaming board that fits in my living room. Also, crusade. Many games end with some leftover units not being able to reach other leftovers, so being able to jump to the other side of a board can be huge tactical asset.
Heck, if you meet one of those Mortarion at 1k dorks, you could bait him to one side and then just redeploy to the other

I don't own Ghaz but I have a friend that we often share collection with who is planning to buy Ghaz + Makari. But anyway, Ghaz is not that great vs mort. If you calculate his damage output - it's pretty comparable with a skeapjet's damage output in mellee. Point for point. Ghaz will deal 4-5 damage to mort in mellee, while 3 skrapjets will deal around 3-4. Pretty comparable.

Is it really that bad? I've never sat down to roll dice to try it out, but with Fists of Gork you're hitting him ~8 times (base, fists and WL trait, exploding hits and rerolling misses), wounding on 2s (14 +2 at least) for 12 damage (not counting waaaagh or charging in the numbers) or so. That aside, the reason to take ghaz is your chums are sinking 500 points into a mega beatstick. If you can limit him to doing 4W in CC per turn you're onto a winner. As others have said, if you're charging him with scrapjets, what you're actually doing is feeding him free kills on your turn...unless somehow you've got him to 4W already, in which case, fill your boots!

Tumbleweed wrote:

I don't own Ghaz but I have a friend that we often share collection with who is planning to buy Ghaz + Makari. But anyway, Ghaz is not that great vs mort. If you calculate his damage output - it's pretty comparable with a skeapjet's damage output in mellee. Point for point. Ghaz will deal 4-5 damage to mort in mellee, while 3 skrapjets will deal around 3-4. Pretty comparable.

Is it really that bad? I've never sat down to roll dice to try it out, but with Fists of Gork you're hitting him ~8 times (base, fists and WL trait, exploding hits and rerolling misses), wounding on 2s (14 +2 at least) for 12 damage (not counting waaaagh or charging in the numbers) or so. That aside, the reason to take ghaz is your chums are sinking 500 points into a mega beatstick. If you can limit him to doing 4W in CC per turn you're onto a winner. As others have said, if you're charging him with scrapjets, what you're actually doing is feeding him free kills on your turn...unless somehow you've got him to 4W already, in which case, fill your boots!

No, I haven't included +3 attacks for magic and waagh but the rest is calculated accurately. Remember, you can't re-roll anything or be affected by any auras While fighting mort.
Skrapjets didn't get any benefits in mellee at all but you could probably make them...goffs, which is a bit counter-productive. More than half of the damage they deal to mort comes from mortal wounds anyway.

As for magic buffs, Magic is tricky. First of all, it's quite unreliavlble and mort can also deny it, second - it comes with the price of another jet. Even if you include fully buffed Ghaz, you end up with around 7-9 damage on average which is close to degrading mort to 1 less attack. But ghaz will likely get killed in 2 turns as mort is a caster and can also shoot his gun.
4 skrapjets will deal around 4-5 wounds in mellee. And around 8-10 with shooting... i don't know, Ghaz seems a bit underwhelming for his price in such small games. He's more of a force multiplier that can occasionally beat not top mellee stuff and can be good if the opponent focuses on just shooting or just mellee as he can survive long enough to fight a couple times and buff what's around him.

Now if you take Ghaz in a 500 pt game... He will still get wrecked by small dreadnaughts Yeah, he needs his buddies around.

Fair enough, I'm convinced. Point being that a Primarch in a 500 point game proably isn't balanced. Get new friends

I think I can handle mort by outscoring him and killing his scoring ASAP. Basically, playing a 1k vs 500 game with loosing a portion of your army every turn. The idea is to try and not provide more than 1 squad to kill in mellee at a time. Easier said than done but that's a better plan than go all out on buffed mort if you go 2d.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have plenty of experience of dealing with knight armies in 1k games at their prime - when we had no real way to reliably kill them in mellee. So, it might be close to that. Mort is slower and less shoots, but is much tougher.

Mani cheemas list run though is up on YouTube now and his army is absolutely brutal. It annoys me that I can't buy any buggies in the whole of the UK due to people jumping on the bandwagon though, all I want us 1 squig buggy!

Tumbleweed wrote:
Fair enough, I'm convinced. Point being that a Primarch in a 500 point game proably isn't balanced. Get new friends

Eh, they are dorks. They are essentially banking on coin-flips, as the mission and the enemy army will essentially auto-decide who wins or loses. A serious DG player trying to win as many games as possible would not bring him at that level.

Well, that's a game, and, as i've told a couple times - our meta is competitive. I don't mind facing him in small games as I think he's beatable but not all lists and approaches can handle him. But that's normal for 40k in general.
Btw, last time one of them mistakenly took mortarion in a 500 pt game. As it turns out, you can't take only supreme command. Anyways, he went 2d as he was just outscored and was unlucky to fail the charge one turn.
In 1k pt he's gona have some durable scoring that might prove problematic, but if we focus on this scoring and score ourselves, we might get a chance.

Or, if orks get 1st turn, we can, instead try to focus down mort. It's unlikely we will kill him in one go but the chances of dealing around 8-10 damage with buggies and kmk are not that slim.

So how many people have been trying out squig lists?

I'm hoping to test one that focuses on the hog riders, a BBK squigosaur boss and Skragbad backed up by a trio of killrigs for that weirdboy dakka. And heck, to keep to the theme of the army, a squigbuggie.

The best buffs I can think to pass out on the squig units would be the beastgob trait on a smashasquig nob and giving one or maybe even two of the killrigs the spirit of gork spell. (2 for having a backup)

Main problem that comes to my mind is the inherent squishiness of such a list. You're likely to take one or even two rounds of shooting due to the meh speed of the riders.

There were some squigrider-focused list that placed well. Iirc, he was running 3 jobs alongside 2x5 squigriders. And 2 squigosaurs ofc.

Yeah, for the 150-170 price tag squigosaur bosses are fairly decent. The only drawback I can think of is the D2, no D3 or D4 weapons via relics or combos. (at least that I can think of) But in exchange you get decent durability and a solid number of attacks thanks to the 3 extra mount attacks.

Btw, unbuffed bbk goff boss on squigosaur with killchoppa will deal around 5 wounds to mort. Which is close to 2.5 times better than ghaz point-for-point.

You know what annoys me? That Da Boomer must go on a wagon.

It would be much more interesting if you could just outright replace a kill kannon with it.


That way you could put it on a Meka Dread too.

Do you guys see any use for Mega and Meka Dreads in this new codex?

Beardedragon wrote:
You know what annoys me? That Da Boomer must go on a wagon.

It would be much more interesting if you could just outright replace a kill kannon with it.


That way you could put it on a Meka Dread too.

Do you guys see any use for Mega and Meka Dreads in this new codex?

I personally don't see a competitive use for either as things stand currently. Maybe a Mega dread with double klaws and maybe a shokka hull of you fancy it, tellyported and thrown in the enemy's face turn two for basically a guaranteed charge. But that would purely be novelty and I don't see it being anything more than a wild card choice to catch an opponent off guard.

 koooaei wrote:
Btw, unbuffed bbk goff boss on squigosaur with killchoppa will deal around 5 wounds to mort. Which is close to 2.5 times better than ghaz point-for-point.

What implementation of the Brutal but kunnin' + mortal wounds combo is that based on and how much can it degrade when the FAQ comes?

I like the concept of the Dinoboss murder machine, but I've yet to use it as it feels so wonky and kinda annoying to explain.

When you use brutal but kunning warlord trait, are you allowed to dedicate those extra hits to another target you are in close combat with and is eligable to attack?

Or must you use those extra hits to attack the same target as your original attacks?

It seems you can allocate extra attacks wherever you want

Beardedragon wrote:When you use brutal but kunning warlord trait, are you allowed to dedicate those extra hits to another target you are in close combat with and is eligable to attack?

Or must you use those extra hits to attack the same target as your original attacks?

koooaei wrote:It seems you can allocate extra attacks wherever you want

That would be another interesting interaction. In that case, when killing the first target with the extra bite attacks before the normal attacks, would the normal attacks count against brutal but kunning as attacks that did not reach the damage step?

 R1ncewind wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:When you use brutal but kunning warlord trait, are you allowed to dedicate those extra hits to another target you are in close combat with and is eligable to attack?

Or must you use those extra hits to attack the same target as your original attacks?

koooaei wrote:It seems you can allocate extra attacks wherever you want

That would be another interesting interaction. In that case, when killing the first target with the extra bite attacks before the normal attacks, would the normal attacks count against brutal but kunning as attacks that did not reach the damage step?

oh wait it does state it has to be against the same unit.

I just didnt read the warlord trait properly. My bad

 R1ncewind wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:When you use brutal but kunning warlord trait, are you allowed to dedicate those extra hits to another target you are in close combat with and is eligable to attack?

Or must you use those extra hits to attack the same target as your original attacks?

koooaei wrote:It seems you can allocate extra attacks wherever you want

That would be another interesting interaction. In that case, when killing the first target with the extra bite attacks before the normal attacks, would the normal attacks count against brutal but kunning as attacks that did not reach the damage step?

It's worth noting that you still can only allocate attacks to models you have charged if you charged this turn. You also don't get another pile-in so you might no longer be in engagement range after killing your original target.

As for making attacks against a dead unit - technically you still would need to make hit and wound rolls for those attacks which then cannot be allocated to a model afterwards. So yes, they would be attacks that did not reach the inflict damage step.