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Deff dreads definitely swung towards more of a melee role in the new codex. It's worth noting that both Big Krumpaz and Tellyporta work on the unit of 3 before they split, so you can deep strike a full mob of all-klaw dreads in during a Waaaagh with 8 attacks each hitting on 2+. All get re-rolls to charge, and one model can use Ramming Speed for a 3D6 re-rolled charge plus mortal wounds.

Not as good as buggies of course, but what is

I've only used one dread in a game so far as full melee, he did ok when he lumbered into combat but he got smashed in return, they just feel a bit fragile when they get hit back by anything with a decent melee profile and as has been said I think the points are better spent elsewhere. It's a shame because it's a great model and the idea of a dread mob stomping about is awesome. I have two kitted out shooty dreads and as a deathskulls player they were absolute menaces with sparkly bits in the last book, I think sadly they are going to be warming the bench this time round

 xttz wrote:
Deff dreads definitely swung towards more of a melee role in the new codex. It's worth noting that both Big Krumpaz and Tellyporta work on the unit of 3 before they split, so you can deep strike a full mob of all-klaw dreads in during a Waaaagh with 8 attacks each hitting on 2+. All get re-rolls to charge, and one model can use Ramming Speed for a 3D6 re-rolled charge plus mortal wounds.

That is my prefered usage also, you could also load up each model with a scorcha for an extra 5 pts per model - with scorchas being range "12 to burn enemies on deployment

Not as good as buggies of course, but what is

lies lol, j/k lets not start that up again

KMB for me are now a no no

other shooting weapons such as scorchas/Rockits/Dakka guns were improved when orks lost dakka dakka but KMB were not unless i have missed something , so they flat out got nerfed.
Add on the nerf to deffskulls and KMB are a miss for me.

You clearly missed something:

just as a prestatement, i do not think deffdreads are top tier or anything... BUT trying to measure everything just by, how well it can alphastrike or can make back their points in destroyed models is kinda flawed...

even if a unit doesnt make their points back, it can have its uses and benefit their army. a dread would be a perfect example. its what 85 points with 4 claws? run it up the middle of the field, maybe towards an objective or a enemy bulkward.

first and foremost it can capture such objective. but ok lets say a single dread is chilling in the middle of the board, hasnt shot yet, hasnt krumped anything yet. it still has value. and the value is NOT part of your overall strategy, you dont rely on it to do a specific task, you dont need it to destroy something or hold something, its not part of your essential kill or hold group, it is just there. its a thread. it could do potentially massive damage if unchecked and your opponent knows that. HE HAS TO REACT.

1. if he ignores it, win for you as the dread can do damage or hold in your next turn

2. if he shoots at it or attacks it in melee, win becasue everything that hits the dread is not hitting your important stuff, everything that charged him is now closer to be countercharged/shot at

3. if he avoids it, win because you have exerscised board control

target saturation is a real thing. you force your opponent to make decisions... and each decision has a potential to be bad one and/or to mess with his "normal" strategy/plan

is the dread OP and should be fielded in every list? of course not, i am not even sure if it is "competitive" at all... but is it garbage? nope.

That's just the distraction carnifex argument in a nutshell though, which is the same as saying that a unit has no redeeming qualities - your points 1-3 hold true for almost every unit in every codex.

In general the dread compares badly to most buggies because it's so slow, it's shooting is worse and buggies like SJD, squigbuggy or scrapjet still put up a decent fight in combat.

On the upside, a dread can be sped up with the tellyporta/ramming speed or pistons (sadly just one though), has 3 damage attacks and actually is one of the few units that can make use of the speed-waaagh! assault weapon rule and advance during the first turn.
It's also a heavy support choice rather than a fast attack one, so that might be a reason to take it as well.

So it's not a lost cause, but at its current price tag (105 for a dual KMB dread) you really need to find a good reason why you wouldn't just run a much cheaper buggy in its stead.

So what is the best option for heavy support from a shooting phase standpoint? Is there anything worth taking or is the plan, “shooting is for da uvver races, orks get stuck in!”?

I like dreads but agree they may not make reliable enough impact to be competative.

However, I am curious as to your folks' thoughts on running a 2 dread mob, 1 with all klaws and the other with 4 KMB and the Kustom Job for +1 shot per KMB.

Deep strike them to get 4+4d3 KMB shots as well as a ramming speed charge on something within 9" and you can do some significant work and you present a lot of ramshackle wounds for them to focus on next turn. You can have the charge go to something that would even hit them back next turn to prolong the KMB dreads' chances of living.

I do agree through, they just arent super great, but they are not bad. When they get to do things, it feel really points efficient. It just when they dont.....

If they got <core> I would take them every game, as they would get advance and charge....

Is the 4 KMB armed dread with enhanced KMB +10pts not a viable unit Especially in freebooter detachment?

I mean it’s probably not intended but ….it’s still 4xd3+4 str 8 ap-3 d6 shots at essentially bs4.

gungo wrote:
Is the 4 KMB armed dread with enhanced KMB +10pts not a viable unit Especially in freebooter detachment?

I mean it’s probably not intended but ….it’s still 4xd3+4 str 8 ap-3 d6 shots at essentially bs4.

Oh yah! You can even give it -1 more ap during speedwaagh. Something would need to guarantee a kill first, but I am sure some squigbuggy triplets could wrangle that first.

bicycletoes wrote:

gungo wrote:
Is the 4 KMB armed dread with enhanced KMB +10pts not a viable unit Especially in freebooter detachment?

I mean it’s probably not intended but ….it’s still 4xd3+4 str 8 ap-3 d6 shots at essentially bs4.

Oh yah! You can even give it -1 more ap during speedwaagh. Something would need to guarantee a kill first, but I am sure some squigbuggy triplets could wrangle that first.

And you can add buzzgrob for +1 to hit if you don’t want freebooters but goff instead and he can repair the deffdread for 4 wounds each turn but let’s not get silly :p

Double Waagh ghaz would benefit both dreads...... you genius!

 Jidmah wrote:
That's just the distraction carnifex argument in a nutshell though, which is the same as saying that a unit has no redeeming qualities - your points 1-3 hold true for almost every unit in every codex.

In general the dread compares badly to most buggies because it's so slow, it's shooting is worse and buggies like SJD, squigbuggy or scrapjet still put up a decent fight in combat.

On the upside, a dread can be sped up with the tellyporta/ramming speed or pistons (sadly just one though), has 3 damage attacks and actually is one of the few units that can make use of the speed-waaagh! assault weapon rule and advance during the first turn.
It's also a heavy support choice rather than a fast attack one, so that might be a reason to take it as well.

So it's not a lost cause, but at its current price tag (105 for a dual KMB dread) you really need to find a good reason why you wouldn't just run a much cheaper buggy in its stead.

in a nutshell yes. BUT you cant apply this to most units though, as you need SOME redeeming qualities, thats why its called a distraction carnifex. if its to good it should be part of your overall plan, so it hurts if it gets destroyed or bogged up. if it cant do gak... its not a potential thread. if it dies to a stiff breeze it cant soak up firepower. for 85 points its just the sweetspot for a distraction unit with lots of potential, especially since you can ramming speed it (i mean you rarley would... but your opponent needs to consider this)

dont bother with KMB's... just get it as cheap as possible and run it up the field and throuw it in the opponents face, its their problem now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

bicycletoes wrote:

gungo wrote:
Is the 4 KMB armed dread with enhanced KMB +10pts not a viable unit Especially in freebooter detachment?

I mean it’s probably not intended but ….it’s still 4xd3+4 str 8 ap-3 d6 shots at essentially bs4.

Oh yah! You can even give it -1 more ap during speedwaagh. Something would need to guarantee a kill first, but I am sure some squigbuggy triplets could wrangle that first.

And you can add buzzgrob for +1 to hit if you don’t want freebooters but goff instead and he can repair the deffdread for 4 wounds each turn but let’s not get silly :p

or you can just get another scrapjet and save 50 points

Well, my next tournament is with the new codex, so I finaly started to making a new list. I have a few notes and questions:

1. Hell, it ' s a reall puzzle to make a list with overcrowded fast attack slot and bunch of conditions like “one warlord in every detach” “core units only” etc. But that' s the fun part of making a list.

2. I want to give the wartrike the Freebotas Banner. Can I do it via Big Boss strategem? I want to have a real warlord in different detach.

Battlescribe said no, I say yes. Who is right and why please?

3. New Kommandos are really great. But how to use them right?

- Small cheap squads hidden as much as possible 9” in front of enemy or pure move bloking dudes seems to be a way. I give a no chance to survive T1 to bigger blobs of Kommandos if go second. So is there some reason to take a bigger squads or pay for equipement?

- How many of them is enough? I tend to have more Stormboyz for free deepstrike and great flexibility. It was a real struggle in old codex dropping the kommandos and then letting them rot in the corner, because of 6” move. Stormboyz are more flexible.

Or do I miss something?

4. New FW book comes with the “grot gunner” rule giving +1 to hit to Kannonwagon. I was surprised, all other important weapons have the wording “has a BS 2+/3+ etc”. Just Suppakannon has +1 to hit. So it means, it is the only important weapon in our arsenal that does not benefit from Freebotas klan ability.

The freebootas banner is a relic not a warlord trait. Maybe thats why you couldnt do it.

As long as your warlord is freebootas you can give a character the banner.

gungo wrote:
Is the 4 KMB armed dread with enhanced KMB +10pts not a viable unit Especially in freebooter detachment?

I mean it’s probably not intended but ….it’s still 4xd3+4 str 8 ap-3 d6 shots at essentially bs4.

It's fairly safe to assume that this rule won't survive the FAQ, so it's rather pointless to plan around it, right?

Beardedragon wrote:
The freebootas banner is a relic not a warlord trait. Maybe thats why you couldnt do it.

As long as your warlord is freebootas you can give a character the banner.

Damn! You are right! Sitting on the beach, drinking a beer and do the lists can lead to some confusions!

Further looking into the minimek, I'm coming to the conclusion, I might need at least 1 in a 1k game. They're great.

RedNoak wrote:
in a nutshell yes. BUT you cant apply this to most units though, as you need SOME redeeming qualities, thats why its called a distraction carnifex. if its to good it should be part of your overall plan, so it hurts if it gets destroyed or bogged up. if it cant do gak... its not a potential thread. if it dies to a stiff breeze it cant soak up firepower. for 85 points its just the sweetspot for a distraction unit with lots of potential, especially since you can ramming speed it (i mean you rarley would... but your opponent needs to consider this)

dont bother with KMB's... just get it as cheap as possible and run it up the field and throuw it in the opponents face, its their problem now.

I don't know about your games, but the dread is definitely in the "dies to a stiff breeze" category in mine. With just 6" movement it will not be a danger to anything in turn one, so your opponent can just safely ignore it, in turn 2 he usually still has the option to outmaneuver it or, worse, counter-charges it.

At 85 points for two big shootas or all melee units really isn't a threat to anyone, and if it dies before reaching melee it hasn't done anything, while most other units in the same weight class either are vastly faster, shoot better, or both. You pretty much have to buy some shooting to actually turn it into a threat that someone would want to shoot.

I think Dread shooting is awful for the points.

I think all melee has potential, at least in a more casual environment. They will die if your opponent wants them to - but at 85 points its not the end of the world and they should be concerned with other things. As said, 7-8 2+ S10 AP-3 3 damage hits should make a large proportion of your 85 points back versus a range of targets.

I think the problem is that M6" is quite awful in the modern game. From basic deployment they can't reliably get into combat for ages (and even if you Tellyporta 3 of them in 9" charges even with rerolls are hardly reliable). I feel "this might not do anything before turn 3" is just not a feature for units in competitive lists.

So I feel the all-klaw models are kind of a "good casual" unit if that makes sense, and shooting dreads are just out and out bad.

 koooaei wrote:
Further looking into the minimek, I'm coming to the conclusion, I might need at least 1 in a 1k game. They're great.

Is this within the context of Blood Axes and their relic? I don't see how they're useful outside of that specific kind of list, given we have better characters IMO for the extra WL traits/relics otherwise.

Tyel wrote:
I think Dread shooting is awful for the points.

I think all melee has potential, at least in a more casual environment. They will die if your opponent wants them to - but at 85 points its not the end of the world and they should be concerned with other things. As said, 7-8 2+ S10 AP-3 3 damage hits should make a large proportion of your 85 points back versus a range of targets.

I think the problem is that M6" is quite awful in the modern game. From basic deployment they can't reliably get into combat for ages (and even if you Tellyporta 3 of them in 9" charges even with rerolls are hardly reliable). I feel "this might not do anything before turn 3" is just not a feature for units in competitive lists.

So I feel the all-klaw models are kind of a "good casual" unit if that makes sense, and shooting dreads are just out and out bad.

A 4 klaw model with pistons kind of works well, but then we are talking about 100 points for the dread.

That said, I'm mostly playing casual-competitive games these days - but that usually doesn't mean that people are playing random crap and incoherent armies, but that they draw the best army they can from their collection. Despite optimal choices often not being available or are only played once, those armies still tear through dreads like butter.

In the old codex, the stratagems and kustom jobs made them work. All of those are gone.

 Jidmah wrote:

I don't know about your games, but the dread is definitely in the "dies to a stiff breeze" category in mine. With just 6" movement it will not be a danger to anything in turn one, so your opponent can just safely ignore it, in turn 2 he usually still has the option to outmaneuver it or, worse, counter-charges it.

At 85 points for two big shootas or all melee units really isn't a threat to anyone, and if it dies before reaching melee it hasn't done anything, while most other units in the same weight class either are vastly faster, shoot better, or both. You pretty much have to buy some shooting to actually turn it into a threat that someone would want to shoot.

I don't know what you call a stiff breeze... But every weapon used to kill a T7 8W 3+ save unit with ramshackle, that doesn't go into my important stuff... I am happy with. I need what three dark lances to kill that thing reliable? That's 8W's saved from my important stuff... Or about THREE D3+3 Anti-tank guns.

Sorry but that's a win for me.

Also 9-10" with an advance should put you right in the middle of the board. It has a potential threat range of 6 + 3d6 (more if ubran a regular whaagh) half a dozen 10+ strength attacks hitting on three's , high ap and 3 flat damage. If that is not a threat I don't know what is.
Again. I am not arguing super competitive stuff. But is it viable yes.

 Grimskul wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Further looking into the minimek, I'm coming to the conclusion, I might need at least 1 in a 1k game. They're great.

Is this within the context of Blood Axes and their relic? I don't see how they're useful outside of that specific kind of list, given we have better characters IMO for the extra WL traits/relics otherwise.

It's more of being the cheapest character with a decent gun.

1st - I often find myself with no units to occupy home objective later on cause the enemy focuses down mek guns pretty easily and kills grots the moment they show up. And that often ends up with 5-10 VP not earned per turn. Mek is a character and hidden grots or a mek gun + mek can safely score home objectives.

Same can be done with a squigbuggy + mek for midfield. If it works, it's amazing. Basically - baits your opponent to come much closer than he would have liked to do.

There are some missions where toy need to perform actions. He can do it in the open and not get killed, once again, cause he's a character.

He has great shooting potential for just 25 pts. Sooner or later there will be an occasion when he shoots down something way above his points and that will affect how the enemy will play in the future, most likely subconciously paying too much attention to a 25pt model. Yeah, it's a bit tricky but if you highlight how much he costs, what he can do and that he's one-shotted demon prince once, you can use it to your advantage. Mind games!

 Jidmah wrote:

RedNoak wrote:
in a nutshell yes. BUT you cant apply this to most units though, as you need SOME redeeming qualities, thats why its called a distraction carnifex. if its to good it should be part of your overall plan, so it hurts if it gets destroyed or bogged up. if it cant do gak... its not a potential thread. if it dies to a stiff breeze it cant soak up firepower. for 85 points its just the sweetspot for a distraction unit with lots of potential, especially since you can ramming speed it (i mean you rarley would... but your opponent needs to consider this)

dont bother with KMB's... just get it as cheap as possible and run it up the field and throuw it in the opponents face, its their problem now.

I don't know about your games, but the dread is definitely in the "dies to a stiff breeze" category in mine. With just 6" movement it will not be a danger to anything in turn one, so your opponent can just safely ignore it, in turn 2 he usually still has the option to outmaneuver it or, worse, counter-charges it.

At 85 points for two big shootas or all melee units really isn't a threat to anyone, and if it dies before reaching melee it hasn't done anything, while most other units in the same weight class either are vastly faster, shoot better, or both. You pretty much have to buy some shooting to actually turn it into a threat that someone would want to shoot.

i would never try and walk a deff dread, i still have nightmares about trying to move over a crater and suffering -2 to movement penalty, and then another -2 when trying to charge off of it. stupidity defined
Off topic for a minute-TIDE OF MUSCLE- is one of the best stratagems we have for core units, it flies under the radar but it is very useful.

in theory you could have a deffdread moving at 10" with Stompamatic Pistons + evil sons, with advance of 2+d6 = possible advance move of 18"
But this would only be for 1 model as kustom jobs can only go on 1 model and you would lose BIG KRUMPAZ as you can't mix kustom jobs and specialist mobs.

Teleporting them with big BIG KRUMPAZ is the only option in my mind

Pre-ordered codex delivered 11.9….. wait ork codex drops 9/11? Symbolic?

Or at least in Australia not on EU page jet

New Koptas are on 75mm oval base. Old Koptas were on 60mm. I expect that the rule “use the base that was in the box” is still valid? Or is it a time to rebase my koptas?

And this dude is back in resin:

Honestly I can't find myself wanting to take a KFF mek right now. The Megamek just does so much more for a small increase. You either give him a KMB for a nice bit of extra dakka. Or slap the dead shiny shoota on him for fairly good support firepower. To say nothing of the backup power klaw and 2+ sv should things go wrong.

For only 30points more it feels like you get great value even if you choose to pop the KFF with the strat

Want a standard KFF big mek? Take a slugga/choppa nob, put him on a 40mm base, add a spared burnaboyz barrel behind his back and glue a spared KFF from meganobz kit on top of it. Don't bother with the official model, it's in finecrap, quite expensive and most importantly utterly useless. Kitsbashing one for dirt cheap is the only advise I'd give to someone that wants to add that unit to his/her collection.

About kopta bases. Don't rebase them for gaming purpose. They are fielded in 3-5 models squads, they'll likely avoid combat in several games and even when they are engaged the difference between the new oval and the old round bases won't be significant.

Well, I would never thought that the old KFF big mek makes a return. While he completely sucks this codex, it's good to see him back.

If you like that model, you should totally hunt down a metal version. The back pack is a PITA to attach, but afterwards you have nigh indestructible model.

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, I would never thought that the old KFF big mek makes a return. While he completely sucks this codex, it's good to see him back.

If you like that model, you should totally hunt down a metal version. The back pack is a PITA to attach, but afterwards you have nigh indestructible model.

Well, despite the fact, I don' t agree it completely sucks (just pretty sucks imho- his big advetnage is that it' s a cheapest KFF), I 'm also very much surprised they returned the old model in production after such a long time. On the other side, it' s sl easy to kitbash your own, they are selling it just to fill the “all models in codex are offered for sale” in report.