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 Afrodactyl wrote:
Shoota Boyz either need a points drop, or the base Shoota needs to really chuck out a boatload of shots to justify the cost.

I would even consider Shoota Boyz as vaguely niche viable if they got the old DDD rule. I'd consider the same for lootaz as well. If it makes sense for any unit to have a rule for vomiting out loads of bullets it's shootas and lootas.

The one thing I notice about DDD during my recent games is how little I miss it

In any case, a 16.66% increase isn't going to have a big impact on either unit. Like I said a few pages back, I don't think there is an easy way to fix shoota boyz. Units like them currently just don't have a place in the game - just look at tacticals, CSM, plague marines, dire avengers and so on. For a troops unit to be played, it either has to be cheap and durable, or fast/infiltration, or super-killy. Shoota boyz are none of those.

Only reason i run shoota boyz at all is because i play badmoonz, the 6's to wound causing AP1 at least makes some wounds go through.
Theyre camping in cover with 2 rokkits anyway (nob has a kombi rokkit). 30" rokkits with potential AP3 has been rather amusing for me lol

Shoota boyz could double their current output, I would go so far as to guess even then nobody (or not that many players) would be playing them (dakka 4/6).
Am I Right ? I mean bad moons for the range, or freebootas for the +1 to hit, in both cases the issues remain (volkite contemptors or other mass S6 shred them, 9 ppm, so on and so forth).

Who here on the dakka forum would play them with dakka 4/6 ? This deserves a poll

If shoota boys could shoot and adv without penalty I mean there is some justification to take them over choppa boys… If they also simply changed ork biker to ork core in speedwaagh That would mean that shootas would be better in a speeddwaagh and choppas better in a regular waaagh.

In the proposed rules form, one of the things I suggested was creating an alternate profile for shoota boyz altogether (both slugga and shoota boyz go down to 8ppm):

Shoota boyz would have BS4+ base, but 1 base attack. For units of 11+ or more, Shoota boyz get 1 extra shot with dakka weapons.

Funnily enough, the first response I got was asking if that wouldn't be broken lol. Goes to show how little people understand how Ork units work.

First off, holy crap! I haven't used weirdboyz this edition much, but the new CORE rules are just ....stupid. What the hell is the point with taking the damn weirdboy if you can't even buff the units you want to Oh well, thanks for pointing that one out guys.

 Jidmah wrote:
IMO DG solely depends on how long he can prevent them from moving midfield. Mortarion would probably be a disaster, but luckily he tends to not appear in top tier lists.

However, Semper doesn't seem to meet any serious DG opponents, so we don't really know for sure.

I have 2 DG players of skill in my area who somewhat regularly attend GTs but are fairly active in the local meta. Sadly I've only faced off with 1 of them, 1 time and he brought a non-competitive list. That game though ended in a massive ork victory with him conceding turn 2. The biggest shenanigans from DG i have yet to face, mortarion does not worry me in the slightest. Hes 1/4th of an army. You can either ignore him and target everything else, or you can go balls to the wall and hit him with all the rokkitz/KMK mek gunz and bum rush with a unit or 3 of CC threats.

Ironically, the biggest DG Threats from what I have seen actually tend to work least against Alphork strike. Hitting my Forward deployed Kommandos with Plague weapons is absolutely fine by me. A T5 model with either 3+ armor or 4+ and -1 to hit all for 10pts is a must target first turn and a pair of plagueburst crawlers average 14 shots, 9.3 hits, 6.2 wounds and in cover that is only 4 dead Kommandos. That is 350pts of Heavy weapons plinking 40pts off Kommandos. And if they don't target them, those Kommandos run roughshod over almost anything else in the game thanks to their +1 to wound ability. Believe it or not, Death Shroud terminators and Kommandos trade equally in CC, whomever goes 1st is going to be the winner. The Deathshrouds absolutely do more dmg but they also cost a 30-40pts more, depending on how you kit those Kommandos out. Include the Squig and you could likely wipe the squad out in 1 turn.

gungo wrote:
Semper, are you upgrading your triple patrol list with the new bloodaxe Strats/clan in that tournament? There seemed to be some decent stuff in the bloodaxe codex for it.

I mean without the speedwaagh guy you defeated having enough aircraft to block your assault freebooter buggies have a hard time when they are locked in combat. I mean he should have still used 2 to a pretty good effect of making g your charges longer and harder but it’s no longer easy to block off all paths to assault.

I honestly think orks have 3 decent competitive lists…
Freebooter speedwaagh alpha strike-now with other buggies- (this list was taken down a bit)
Army of renown bike/buggy spam- (looks strongest but has its own issues with missions)
And the triple patrol rush assault- (fun and strong but might have issues with certain lists, knight freeblade lists, greyknights, and other strong assault focus lists.. drukari?

I'm torn, I don't have the book yet, I might not get it mind you, but there are some tricks in their that I liked. The problem is...its more a side/grade party trick then actually competitive. The biggest one I remember was the Stormboyz trick where you can deepstrike them turn 2 and have +2 to charge if you charged the unit with ground forces. It would be useful to protect blobs of stormboyz but at the end of the day, what is a stormboy? A more expensive boy. Without Goff kulture they are S4 and just 3 attacks (4 on the waaaagh). You can use a strat to make them almost as good as Goffs but thats it. Its a solid turn 2 beta strike, you could feasible put 60 stormboyz into reserve and drop them turn 2 with a 7' charge but its just not worth it and you would have a hard time getting all 20 into CC. If you reduce the size to 10 (where they should be) that means your using a kulture just to net 30 boyz into CC turn 2. I would rather just take the Trukkboyz who will be in CC turn 1.

As far as the aircraft blocking, he did use them for exactly that, but Kommandos can appear anywhere on the table and I try to deploy them last. My Trukkz are just insanely fast, 12' movement, 3' pile out, 5' movement, D6 advance and 2D6 charge...That is a max threat range of 38' and when you deploy them on the deployment line....you really aren't safe anywhere.

 Jidmah wrote:
If goonhammer is right, they actually were run in trukks.
The list can be found here, run by Boss Paul Martin: https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-many-magnificent-majors-pt-2/

I also was remembering it wrong, he won that tournament.

I gotta be honest, I have no idea how he won anything with that list. 16 lootas and 4 spanners with KMBs in 2 trukkz is....garbage. Compare that to the aforementioned Mortarion. The 2 trukkz of lootas are actually MORE expensive, 500pts and which do you think is better/more impactful. So 1/4th of his list is 48 autocannon shots (Half range) hitting on 5s and 4 KMBs hitting on 5s, but not to short change them, they also get 6-10 S5 big shoota shots as well. that works out to 16 autocannon hits, 2.6 KMB hits and 2-3.3 big shoota hits a turn...totally OP. Fun fact, for about the same price you can take 6.6 Chickenwalkers post-nerf, they put out 33 Auto-cannon ...HITS a turn. And again...those chickenwalkers aren't even competitive.




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 addnid wrote:
Shoota boyz could double their current output, I would go so far as to guess even then nobody (or not that many players) would be playing them (dakka 4/6).
Am I Right ? I mean bad moons for the range, or freebootas for the +1 to hit, in both cases the issues remain (volkite contemptors or other mass S6 shred them, 9 ppm, so on and so forth).

Who here on the dakka forum would play them with dakka 4/6 ? This deserves a poll

Assuming you got them all into dakka range, a unit of 10 would put out 20 S4 hits a turn. 90pts for 20 S4 hits isnt...bad, but its definitely not good. 10 Shoota boyz would get 20 hits, 10 wounds, 3.33 dmg vs a Marine. They charge in and do 20 attacks, 13.3ish hits, 6.6 wounds and 2.2dmg, grand total of 5.5dmg to a Marine profile. 10 Choppa boyz get 10 pistol shots, 3.3 hits, 1.6 wounds and 0.55dmg, they charge in and get 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 5dmg. Works out to about the same dmg potential for them. Only problem is, you have to be in insanely close range to pull that trick off with the shoota boyz and the biggest problem...Choppa boyz AREN'T COMPETITIVE

So buffing them to double their current ROF would make them as good as a troops choice that we don't use except as MSU because of how bad it is. So I guess internally it would create the option of taking a useless shoota boyz unit instead of a useful trukk boyz unit. With Freeboota it does become a bit better, giving them 30 hits a turn, but still doesn't address their biggest problem, too expensive for little return and a big morale problem. Team that with the fact that to make them worth using strats on you want to take a unit of 20-30 and you realize its a waste of time/effort/resources.

Design paradigm. Shoota boyz were given shorter ranged guns compared to other factions because they wanted to get stuck into CC right away. Shoota boyz historically have always run towards CC and used their shootas to pepper/soften up targets. With the loss of Assault they lost this ability and either need it returned OR they need their weapons buffed to increase their range to at least 24. I would really like an option of 24' range shootas but they can shoot at up to 36, but they always hit on 6s regardless of modifiers, IE you can't buff them to 5+ ever. It would be fluffy/funny and somewhat useful. At flat 6 shots each they would be as good as the choppa boyz dmg wise. I think they could serve a purpose as an objective holder, the only problem being that if they are holding the objective they aren't likely to be in 12' range meaning they would lose 33% of their already limited dmg potential.

If you made them Dakka 4/6, increased range to 24 and made them BS4 but took away their extra attack I could see them being used in a freeboota list as an objective holding unit. 10 would put out 40 shots, 20 hits and the aforementioned 3.3dmg to a Marine unit. That isn't bad for a unit designed to camp an objective. In that freeboota list if you got them into half range and proc'd the kulture it would be 3+ to hit so 40 hits, 20 wounds and 6.6dmg to a Marine statline. Pretty damn good for a 90pt unit. At that point they could function as a suicide teleport/da jump unit. They get 1 turn of shooting, and likely get wiped out in return

 Grimskul wrote:
In the proposed rules form, one of the things I suggested was creating an alternate profile for shoota boyz altogether (both slugga and shoota boyz go down to 8ppm):

Shoota boyz would have BS4+ base, but 1 base attack. For units of 11+ or more, Shoota boyz get 1 extra shot with dakka weapons.

Funnily enough, the first response I got was asking if that wouldn't be broken lol. Goes to show how little people understand how Ork units work.

Unit size based bonuses to hit/wound seem to be phasing out, which I am totally ok with. I really didn't care for it as a general feature across horde armies because most horde armies have ways of playing with less infantry than what would trigger said bonuses, but you paid for it anyways.

SemperMortis wrote:
First off, holy crap! I haven't used weirdboyz this edition much, but the new CORE rules are just ....stupid. What the hell is the point with taking the damn weirdboy if you can't even buff the units you want to Oh well, thanks for pointing that one out guys.

 Jidmah wrote:
IMO DG solely depends on how long he can prevent them from moving midfield. Mortarion would probably be a disaster, but luckily he tends to not appear in top tier lists.

However, Semper doesn't seem to meet any serious DG opponents, so we don't really know for sure.

I have 2 DG players of skill in my area who somewhat regularly attend GTs but are fairly active in the local meta. Sadly I've only faced off with 1 of them, 1 time and he brought a non-competitive list. That game though ended in a massive ork victory with him conceding turn 2. The biggest shenanigans from DG i have yet to face, mortarion does not worry me in the slightest. Hes 1/4th of an army. You can either ignore him and target everything else, or you can go balls to the wall and hit him with all the rokkitz/KMK mek gunz and bum rush with a unit or 3 of CC threats.

Ironically, the biggest DG Threats from what I have seen actually tend to work least against Alphork strike. Hitting my Forward deployed Kommandos with Plague weapons is absolutely fine by me. A T5 model with either 3+ armor or 4+ and -1 to hit all for 10pts is a must target first turn and a pair of plagueburst crawlers average 14 shots, 9.3 hits, 6.2 wounds and in cover that is only 4 dead Kommandos. That is 350pts of Heavy weapons plinking 40pts off Kommandos. And if they don't target them, those Kommandos run roughshod over almost anything else in the game thanks to their +1 to wound ability. Believe it or not, Death Shroud terminators and Kommandos trade equally in CC, whomever goes 1st is going to be the winner. The Deathshrouds absolutely do more dmg but they also cost a 30-40pts more, depending on how you kit those Kommandos out. Include the Squig and you could likely wipe the squad out in 1 turn.

Sorry, but that's... not how DG work at all? Shooting mortars at kommandos? Kommadoz trading with deathshrouds? Didn't he also reserve his terminators? What on earth was that guy doing?
Even as goff and with ram, grot and klaw, bridled carnage and the squig hitting, you just barely manage to take out three deathshrouds, and just the champion by itself attacks 10 times, hits 8.333 times, wounds and kills 6.481 kommadoz, causing you to auto-fail morale for another casualty and possibly attrition. He then gets to shoot his flamer gauntlet at their face before the next turn of fighting. And all that is assuming that they didn't overwatch for some reason. It's similar for blightlords, except here you have even less chance to wipe them and the opponent can double down on their casualties with stratagems and the flail.

As for the PBC, the KMK in your list are probably the most dangerous unit to any DG army and plague mortars are awesome at killing them. And if the entropy cannons can't line up shots, there are still koptas, warbikers and trukks for them to shoot. Why did he literally pick the worst possible unit in your entire list to target, especially one that can be wiped out with ease using melee and MW?

The only explanation I have for this is that the DG player either didn't know his army, was overwhelmed by your army or both.

 Jidmah wrote:

Sorry, but that's... not how DG work at all? Shooting mortars at kommandos? Kommadoz trading with deathshrouds? Didn't he also reserve his terminators? What on earth was that guy doing?
Even as goff and with ram, grot and klaw, bridled carnage and the squig hitting, you just barely manage to take out three deathshrouds, and just the champion by itself attacks 10 times, hits 8.333 times, wounds and kills 6.481 kommadoz, causing you to auto-fail morale for another casualty and possibly attrition. He then gets to shoot his flamer gauntlet at their face before the next turn of fighting. And all that is assuming that they didn't overwatch for some reason. It's similar for blightlords, except here you have even less chance to wipe them and the opponent can double down on their casualties with stratagems and the flail.

As for the PBC, the KMK in your list are probably the most dangerous unit to any DG army and plague mortars are awesome at killing them. And if the entropy cannons can't line up shots, there are still koptas, warbikers and trukks for them to shoot. Why did he literally pick the worst possible unit in your entire list to target, especially one that can be wiped out with ease using melee and MW?

The only explanation I have for this is that the DG player either didn't know his army, was overwhelmed by your army or both.

Sorry for the confusion Jid, I was saying what "Can" happen rather than what did. In my game, he had 2 units of terminators (including shrouds) in reserve. He HAD to deploy them turn 1 (i went first) on his own side of the board because if he hadn't the game would have been over turn 2. As far as why you have to shoot Kommandos...because they can trade up with most units. yes, deathshrouds are absolutely better than Kommandos in CC, no question, they are also a lot more durable. BUT, a unit of Kommandos can on average wipe out 3 Deathshrouds in a single turn. Which means a 120ish point unit is taking out 150pts of enemies, that is a great return on investment for my Kommandos. So, the winner of that CC is whomever attacks first, and since my alpha strike list is so damn good at getting into CC first, its usually my Kommandos.

The trick to my list is pretty straight forward, massive target saturation and threat overload turn 1. DG start the game with a hefty chunk of their army off the board in reserve/teleport strike. My Alphork strike 100% deployed, I reliably get 3 units of Kommandos and 3 units of Trukkboyz into CC Turn 1. I 60-70% of the time am able to get a unit or 3 of warbikes into CC and about the same for my Deff Koptas. Turn 1 I am easily tying up or killing a huge swathe of the enemy, turn 2 my warbosses are in CC and at that point there isn't much the enemy can do except run around with the units they have left and try and cap objectives. But even that doesn't work well since the Mek gunz that lived are plinking way and the koptas/bikes are fast enough to catch almost anything.

SemperMortis wrote:
He HAD to deploy them turn 1 (i went first) on his own side of the board because if he hadn't the game would have been over turn 2.

He is not allowed to do that though... that's why you deploy terminators on the board against armies trying to go for T1 charges. I remain with my initial opinion though, I don't think that we was a great player and I can't really tell what happens when you meet one. Might go either way.

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
He HAD to deploy them turn 1 (i went first) on his own side of the board because if he hadn't the game would have been over turn 2.

He is not allowed to do that though... that's why you deploy terminators on the board against armies trying to go for T1 charges. I remain with my initial opinion though, I don't think that we was a great player and I can't really tell what happens when you meet one. Might go either way.

Nvm, Semper cleared things up.

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
He HAD to deploy them turn 1 (i went first) on his own side of the board because if he hadn't the game would have been over turn 2.

He is not allowed to do that though... that's why you deploy terminators on the board against armies trying to go for T1 charges. I remain with my initial opinion though, I don't think that we was a great player and I can't really tell what happens when you meet one. Might go either way.

Again apologies this was a friendly game, and I wanted experience of dealing with his deep strikers, so we agreed to keep playing and he deployed his units into the game from deep strike using the old 8th rules, of deploying only on his side.

When are we able to start using speedfreak rules? Is the book officially out yet?

blufury wrote:
When are we able to start using speedfreak rules? Is the book officially out yet?

I believe it finally was out this past weekend, since pre-orders were the weekend before last week's. So yes, it should be out and usable now.

Speedfreak is good to go…and it’s available as long the tournament allows it… sometimes they want the list a week or 2 early. The same with the balance adjustment. Might need 2 weeks to see real results in the wins

To chip in to the shoota boy discussion. I kinda think they should be given a combat knife of some sort, so you can give their melee swings AP1 without the extra attack. Essentially making them regular boys who just happen to be able to shoot a bit before charging in to finish off the wounded unit where an ork belongs, in combat. Works well with the 9inch dakka range and all.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
He HAD to deploy them turn 1 (i went first) on his own side of the board because if he hadn't the game would have been over turn 2.

He is not allowed to do that though... that's why you deploy terminators on the board against armies trying to go for T1 charges. I remain with my initial opinion though, I don't think that we was a great player and I can't really tell what happens when you meet one. Might go either way.

Again apologies this was a friendly game, and I wanted experience of dealing with his deep strikers, so we agreed to keep playing and he deployed his units into the game from deep strike using the old 8th rules, of deploying only on his side.

The two good deathguard players I faced recently will wipe the floor with such an ork rush list, it will not go « either way », it will be a massacre. Now perhaps on certain maps such an ork army could win by playing to the mission, sending units early on objectives and somehow preventing deathguard units from scoring, but I seriously doubt that winning that way against a good (DG or other) player is even possible.

Again, the same goes for battle sisters, especially the valorous heart nuns who ignore ap1 and make ap2 become ap1

cody.d. wrote:
To chip in to the shoota boy discussion. I kinda think they should be given a combat knife of some sort, so you can give their melee swings AP1 without the extra attack. Essentially making them regular boys who just happen to be able to shoot a bit before charging in to finish off the wounded unit where an ork belongs, in combat. Works well with the 9inch dakka range and all.

I feel like that potentially brings back in the issue of them being better than slugga boyz to some extent though, because they then get to maximize both shooting and follow up CC afterwards. I'd much rather they be good at shooting and slugga boyz are better at CC rather than shoota boyz being effectively better at both.

Yeah i prefer it when things are not capable of both melee and shooting unless theyre a character or big bad thing.

Shoota boyz need a shooting boost. I feel like raw AP or shots boost alone would just be stale and either not be enough or breach the tipping point of suddenly theyre waaaay better.
Issue being is thats probably all they'd get if anything. Theyre not gonna give some interesting new mechanic to shoota boyz (such as a compounding shot that gets better the more units of shootas hit the target)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah i prefer it when things are not capable of both melee and shooting unless theyre a character or big bad thing.

Shoota boyz need a shooting boost. I feel like raw AP or shots boost alone would just be stale and either not be enough or breach the tipping point of suddenly theyre waaaay better.
Issue being is thats probably all they'd get if anything. Theyre not gonna give some interesting new mechanic to shoota boyz (such as a compounding shot that gets better the more units of shootas hit the target)

Yeah, I feel like if they had the old dakkajet rule of getting +1 to hit if the entire unit shoots at the same target that would be a nice way of representing the sheer wall of bullets coming from the unit. I'm not sure what else we could to represent the volume of shots other than exploding 6's of some sort.

 addnid wrote:

The two good deathguard players I faced recently will wipe the floor with such an ork rush list, it will not go « either way », it will be a massacre. Now perhaps on certain maps such an ork army could win by playing to the mission, sending units early on objectives and somehow preventing deathguard units from scoring, but I seriously doubt that winning that way against a good (DG or other) player is even possible.

Again, the same goes for battle sisters, especially the valorous heart nuns who ignore ap1 and make ap2 become ap1

Well please explain how. Turn 1 I get to choose when and where to be in CC, my army is ridiculously fast and has a massive CC presence, you can't deploy far enough back to get out of range of my threats. I have played against competitive SoB players and have tabled them with this very list. The last tourny I went to that included a SoB player the game was conceded turn 2. I had tied up all his threats and gutted them. I killed both the rhinos turn 1 and killed those inside (Retributor squads) before they could even return fire. The only struggle I had was with Celestine and Morvenn Vahl, but as soon as the warbosses showed up they disappeared under a plethora of Warboss/Kommandos/Trukkboy attacks. End of my turn 2 he had basically nothing left except a dominion squad that had been camping an objective out of LOS that I hadn't seen

I have a tourny coming up this Weekend and I know for a fact there will be 2 DG players and a SoB player there. If I face off with any of them i'll let you know how it goes. Usually these local tournies have 15-24 people and usually include at least 3-4 GT players. But by all means please help me out, tell me why DG lists would beat my Alphork strike list, i mean this entirely, I want to be as prepared as possible I openly admit I am not infallible

 Grimskul wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah i prefer it when things are not capable of both melee and shooting unless theyre a character or big bad thing.

Shoota boyz need a shooting boost. I feel like raw AP or shots boost alone would just be stale and either not be enough or breach the tipping point of suddenly theyre waaaay better.
Issue being is thats probably all they'd get if anything. Theyre not gonna give some interesting new mechanic to shoota boyz (such as a compounding shot that gets better the more units of shootas hit the target)

Yeah, I feel like if they had the old dakkajet rule of getting +1 to hit if the entire unit shoots at the same target that would be a nice way of representing the sheer wall of bullets coming from the unit. I'm not sure what else we could to represent the volume of shots other than exploding 6's of some sort.

Actually personally i'd be annoyed if they got that bonus lol
I have a habit of running 2 rokkits per boy squad (nob with kombi + normal). They almost NEVER fire at the same target and would ruin such a rule lol

Just give em moar shots
I’d say 4-6 could be fun.
That or keep em as is, add ap-1, and make em auto hit within 12

Problem with that is high volume of shots is even more magnetic to complaints than super reliable deadly things.
Because when you roll hot even once it stands out like a sore thumb.

Case in point i just did a crusade game where i had 6 warbikers firing 60 shots. No outside buffs outside of the More Dakka strat to get said 60 shots.
Caused 37 wounds against a marine squad. Not hits....wounds...i rolled THAT hot lol. And even though those bikers proceeded to get obliterated right after that was still a focal point of post-game talk.Not because i was lucky but because "they fire so many damn shots how do you survive against that!?"
Im like....you do know that statistically i should have had less than half that right? lol

Despite the fact that the problem child was the lone squigbuggy with an innate AP3 big gun (crusade shenanigans) wiping a squad of marines per turn.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Problem with that is high volume of shots is even more magnetic to complaints than super reliable deadly things.
Because when you roll hot even once it stands out like a sore thumb.

Case in point i just did a crusade game where i had 6 warbikers firing 60 shots. No outside buffs outside of the More Dakka strat to get said 60 shots.
Caused 37 wounds against a marine squad. Not hits....wounds...i rolled THAT hot lol. And even though those bikers proceeded to get obliterated right after that was still a focal point of post-game talk.Not because i was lucky but because "they fire so many damn shots how do you survive against that!?"
Im like....you do know that statistically i should have had less than half that right? lol

Yeah, that's the problem with a dice game compared to a video game. You have the potential to spike stats way higher than possible which means people only remember the outliers and not the times you rolled like 20 1's. I feel people are especially bad with this for Orks for some reason. I still have an Eldar, Tau and Sisters player that still have PTSD those few games where my SSAG one-shotted a flyer or some other unit they had. Makes me roll my eyes coming from armies that had strength D spam and scatbikes.

HA one friend of mine cried about the SSAG so much and he was one of those pricks in 7th that spammed as much D weapons as he could as eldar.
Im like "you cannot complain man...."

1 model that tends to delete whatever it hits vs 30+ lol.....

Orks do seem to be a frequent victim of that sort of confirmation bias. Reminds me of convos in TF2 regarding Random Kritz, feels good on one side, not for the other.

Those same players probably wouldn't bat an eye when their units overperform, or even when the ork units underperform. Which they're fairly likely to do. But as ork players, we sorta just, get used to those sorta low points.

Also kinda reminds me of my most frequent opponent, plays crons and complains if a pair of Wazboms wipe out his destroyers. It's like. I've just used 480 points to kill about 300. I'm not exactly trading upwards. But having key units shot down usually feels meh.

Shoota boys don't really make sense at the moment. They can definitely go down one point, but as a buff I'd like them to gain AP-1 on 6s to wound as a built in ability, of course cumulative with Bad Moons bonus. Drukhari style.

Flat BS4+ for a standard non gretchin unit is not orky, and flat AP-1 could be too powerful. Not even big shootas or bikers have flat AP-1. Assault trait on shoota could be a bonus, so is the extra shot of the new profile though. I think I prefer dakka 3/2 than assault 2 to be honest, shoota boyz hitting on 6s never achieved anything.

 Blackie wrote:
Shoota boys don't really make sense at the moment. They can definitely go down one point, but as a buff I'd like them to gain AP-1 on 6s to wound as a built in ability, of course cumulative with Bad Moons bonus. Drukhari style.

Flat BS4+ for a standard non gretchin unit is not orky, and flat AP-1 could be too powerful. Not even big shootas or bikers have flat AP-1. Assault trait on shoota could be a bonus, so is the extra shot of the new profile though. I think I prefer dakka 3/2 than assault 2 to be honest, shoota boyz hitting on 6s never achieved anything.

To be fair, I think BS should have AP-1 baseline to begin with but I guess that's besides the point. I could see 6's to wound making it gain -1AP. Though it would be interesting if we had a strat that increases the AP of either dakka weapons or shootas specifically, since there is fluff precedent in the past (5th ed, during Assault on Black Reach), where Warboss Zanzag was able to create supa shootas that could pierce through power armour, though not terminator armour.

Also, I'm not entirely sure we should be that averse to having BS4+ on some of our dedicated shooty units. We basically get work-arounds anyways built into the rules (periscopes, targeting squigs) and Flash Gitz are a demonstration that some Orks do just aim. I mean, prior to the our 5th ed codex, I believe we had BS4+ as our base shooting stat. If need be, we can up the cost accordingly, but it does solve some of the issues of us rolling ineffectual 6's to hit in the cases of all the -1 to hit mods being thrown around nowadays.

cody.d. wrote:
Orks do seem to be a frequent victim of that sort of confirmation bias. Reminds me of convos in TF2 regarding Random Kritz, feels good on one side, not for the other.

Those same players probably wouldn't bat an eye when their units overperform, or even when the ork units underperform. Which they're fairly likely to do. But as ork players, we sorta just, get used to those sorta low points.

Also kinda reminds me of my most frequent opponent, plays crons and complains if a pair of Wazboms wipe out his destroyers. It's like. I've just used 480 points to kill about 300. I'm not exactly trading upwards. But having key units shot down usually feels meh.

A lot of popular meta players either don’t play orks or just don’t like buggy spam list playstyle. So there is a lot of hate for it… the semi good news is even art of wars list rankings now have orks as the 5-6th best list and no longer in thier nerf it category… unfortunately I think it’s still to late and GW is going to increase points on ork lists.