Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Problem with that is high volume of shots is even more magnetic to complaints than super reliable deadly things.
Because when you roll hot even once it stands out like a sore thumb.

Case in point i just did a crusade game where i had 6 warbikers firing 60 shots. No outside buffs outside of the More Dakka strat to get said 60 shots.
Caused 37 wounds against a marine squad. Not hits....wounds...i rolled THAT hot lol. And even though those bikers proceeded to get obliterated right after that was still a focal point of post-game talk.Not because i was lucky but because "they fire so many damn shots how do you survive against that!?"
Im like....you do know that statistically i should have had less than half that right? lol

Despite the fact that the problem child was the lone squigbuggy with an innate AP3 big gun (crusade shenanigans) wiping a squad of marines per turn.

Yup, I was fairly active in 7th, god help me but that was a terrible edition for orkz! I played in a tournament where my 2nd game was against a TFG meta Eldar player who brought 2 Wraithknights, 3 squads of scatbikes and some other shenanigans. Turn 1 my SAG Big Mek rolled a pie plate, no scatter, and 1 shotted a Wraithknight and half a squad of Scatbikes, when it scattered it went onto another unit of scat bikes. The guy flipped gak and screamed for the rest of day that SAG is cheating/broken/OP and could not be calmed down even after I showed him how terrible the SAG usually is. Same guy has never played against my orkz since and never apologized for being a canoe of feminine care product In 8th people complained about the SSAG and the Lootas. 1 guy who is tagged somewhere in my sig line *cough also went off on a rant that Squig buggies and Stompas in 8th were OP/Broken. We never are allowed to have anything without someone complaining.

 Blackie wrote:
Shoota boys don't really make sense at the moment. They can definitely go down one point, but as a buff I'd like them to gain AP-1 on 6s to wound as a built in ability, of course cumulative with Bad Moons bonus. Drukhari style.

Flat BS4+ for a standard non gretchin unit is not orky, and flat AP-1 could be too powerful. Not even big shootas or bikers have flat AP-1. Assault trait on shoota could be a bonus, so is the extra shot of the new profile though. I think I prefer dakka 3/2 than assault 2 to be honest, shoota boyz hitting on 6s never achieved anything.

Gotta disagree Blackie. A Heavy Bolter is a 10pt upgrade for most armies right now. On a Marine it works out to 3 shots, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds and 1.33dmg vs a Marine statline. A Big shoota is currently 5pts, If you take 2 of them and get in half range its 10 shots, 3.33 hits, 2.22 wounds and 0.74dmg to a Marine. To put it another way, to guarantee 1 dead Marine per turn you would need 6 Big shootas all within half range or 30pts of upgrades. To guarantee 1 dead Marine with Heavy bolters you need less than 2, or 20pts of upgrades. If you made Big shootas AP-1 than 20pts of them would do 1.33dmg at max range and 2.2dmg at half range. So, balance wise, a big shoota SHOULD BE -1AP. The problem would then become freebootas speedwaaagh players bumping that to -2 for 2 turns . Because that works out to 20pts (4 big shootas) doing 4.4dmg a turn. But I hate to say it like this...too bad? Something has to happen because atm Big shootas are just god awful investments. Nobody takes them if they don't have to unless they are the cheapest possible required upgrade (Spannas).

As far as Shoota boyz. Here is the problem. 1: With 9' half range for dakka rules....you will almost NEVER be in dakka range, and on those rare occasions you are, you don't want to shoot your target because you don't do enough dmg to justify the loss of charge range and 2: 6s giving -1AP just isn't enough to make shootas worth a damn.

Going WAY back, Ork shoota boyz used to be 6ppm and Marines 15. You could take 2.5 shoota boyz per Marine. That worked out to 5 shoota shots per 1 Marine you needed 9 Shootaboyz to kill 1 Marine. 18 shots, 6 hits 3 wounds, 1 dead Marine. That was 54pts of Ork to kill 15pts of Marine...terrible but it was ok because they were ok in CC as well. Todays math it now takes 36 shots to kill 1 Marine, that is 12-18 Shoota boyz depending on dakkarange....likely 18. But it gets worse, because it used to be 2.5 Orkz per Marine, today its 2 Orkz per Marine. So it takes Twice as many boyz, and they are now 20% more expensive compared to their target. So its 162pts of Ork to kill 18pts of Marine. If you gave Shootas -1AP on 6s to wound the math goes to 1.66dmg from no AP shots and 0.5dmg from that 1 shot that became AP-1. So instead of Flat 2 dmg from 36 shots, its 2.16. Do you really think that would be enough to make Shoota boyz worth a damn? Even if you gave them that 1pt price cut?

Conversely, if you gave shootas -1AP all the time it would then still take 24 shots to kill 1 Marine, thats 8-12 boyz, and again with dakkarange its likely 12 most of the time. Lets say you got rid of the stupid Dakka rule and just made them assault 3. That would make it 8 Shoota boyz to kill 1 Marine, thats 72pts killing 18, Definitely not good, but a hell of a lot better than what it is.

So if anything, Shoota boyz to be competitive need to be Assault 3 -1AP. Keep their current price tag, you just made shoota boyz relevant....kind of Bump them up further by allowing them to benefit from the Speed Waaagh and You now have a choice between the two for running waaaaghs. Shoota boyz could advance/shoot and charge in a turn OR they could shoot at -2AP for 2 turns.

Best way imo to make boyz comp is just slash em down to 6 points, 8 points if goffs.
Can’t buff em so might as well just make em amazing baseline.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Best way imo to make boyz comp is just slash em down to 6 points, 8 points if goffs.
Can’t buff em so might as well just make em amazing baseline.

Ironically, they still wouldn't be good. But they would be cheap enough that people may bring a Battalion instead of another type of detachment.

30 boyz would be 180pts again, kill 6 and you still lose 5 more to morale.

When they were T4 it took 3.6 bolter shots to kill 1 Ork. If you got peppered with 36 bolter shots you lost 10 Orkz, you were still basically fearless so you lost 0 boyz to morale. At 7ppm that would work out to 70pts dead last edition.
Now, at T5, 36 bolter shots kills 6.6 Boyz, you fail morale lose 1 more, down 7.6 and now you lose another 3.7 to morale. So you end up losing 11.3 Boyz even though they are more durable in terms of direct dmg. 11.3 Boyz at 6ppm is 67.8 So they would be about AS durable as T4 boyz at 7ppm. If you made goffs pay the 8pts, the math would go to 90.4pts of dead orkz, so significantly less durable than T4 boyz at 7ppm.

So yet again the problem goes back to the fact that Orkz are just about the only faction that suffers from Morale problems, and its getting a bit old to be honest.

I was thinking higher points for goffs cause of the whole strength and effective +1 to hit they have.
Maybe just revert back the entire core of the army, warboss is perma adv+charge, weirdboys get bonuses, and the kff is a 5++.
I think that combined with old style mob rule 6 point boyz would work.

I mean we are done til 10th. We may get a pt drop on boys at best but just as likely to see kommandos and stormboys get a point hike and Gw saying see boys are better infantry units now!!

Not that o disagree with you boys are bad and Gretchin are the worst 5pt unit in the game.

Frankly speaking, I'd much rather prefer they make boyz worth the 8-9 points they're worth versus slashing their points cost. I always liked it when mid-sized mobs were okay to bring and I don't like that bringing Green Tide was the only good way to bring boyz for quite a few editions. Having a nice middle ground is always good and buffing boyz to keep their numbers down also makes it easier for newer Ork players to start the faction.

 Grimskul wrote:
Frankly speaking, I'd much rather prefer they make boyz worth the 8-9 points they're worth versus slashing their points cost. I always liked it when mid-sized mobs were okay to bring and I don't like that bringing Green Tide was the only good way to bring boyz for quite a few editions. Having a nice middle ground is always good and buffing boyz to keep their numbers down also makes it easier for newer Ork players to start the faction.

Boyz are just cheap lads, if we start actually normalizing this high price we’re losing the identity of orks. I say push em back down to 6 with the current stats, then make a point upgrade to give em ‘ard armor if you want to make em more elite.

i'd gladly take the old 10ppm cost for 4+ armor these days.
Even w/o T5.

4+ armor isnt that big of a deal anymore, most weapons hitting boyz are ap0/1 not 2/3.
It sucked in the past because for whatever reason armor was all or nothing, and AP4 was unbelievably common.
Also cover being +1 save means nothing for a 6+ armor unit, but quite a bit for a 4+

10ppm, T4 (leave Snaggas T5 but also 4+ armor, maybe bump 1ppm), ap1 choppas. Expensive enough you wouldnt want to totally spam them because they still dont hit all that hard but durable enough that a lot of them stick around longer.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Frankly speaking, I'd much rather prefer they make boyz worth the 8-9 points they're worth versus slashing their points cost. I always liked it when mid-sized mobs were okay to bring and I don't like that bringing Green Tide was the only good way to bring boyz for quite a few editions. Having a nice middle ground is always good and buffing boyz to keep their numbers down also makes it easier for newer Ork players to start the faction.

Boyz are just cheap lads, if we start actually normalizing this high price we’re losing the identity of orks. I say push em back down to 6 with the current stats, then make a point upgrade to give em ‘ard armor if you want to make em more elite.

I'd argue that Semper's alphork list is still very much within the iconic identity of orks that is fielding a crap ton of green lads rushing towards the enemy - despite him paying at least 10 ppm for each pair of green fists.

If boyz had something unique that would allow them to compete with kommadoz or burnas, paying 10 points for each of them would not be an issue.

 Jidmah wrote:


I'd argue that Semper's alphork list is still very much within the iconic identity of orks that is fielding a crap ton of green lads rushing towards the enemy - despite him paying at least 10 ppm for each pair of green fists.

If boyz had something unique that would allow them to compete with kommadoz or burnas, paying 10 points for each of them would not be an issue.

Id agree with that argument. I run 60 infantry in the form of 30 kommandos and 30 Boyz, I had run 30 stormboyz as well but i've switched them out because they tended to die to easily.

I think Boyz should get a 5+ save since they are now doomed to have bad morale likely until 10th edition. I would love to see Trukk boyz get moved from a specialist detachment to a normal ability with trukkz for boyz. If I had goff Trukk boyz I would be so happy lol. In more than 1 game that extra pip of strength and exploding 6s could have been massive help. Keep in mind, that alphork list is still undefeated. Fingers crossed for this weekend, should be a hard contest

I mean it reallly would not have been an issue of specialist mobs were like the army of renown and only exchanged kultur not the klan keyword. That would provide a bit more synergy to trukk boys And all specialists.

A lot of interesting stuff on todays goonhammer

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-liminal-state/

1. Freebotas list almost fitting the new rules and supported by… KILLA KANZ and Nob with Banner. Oldschool touch!

2. Another tripple Killtank list

3. Couple of KILL RIG lists. Mostly 3 of them. And it seems, it will be a lot of different but very effective variations. And whow, even one Mek

Killa kanz being used together with buggies, are you telling me the hammer and anvil archetype is actually a competitive thing now? (or at least usable)

Would be psyched if half dreadmob/half buggies is actually playable

If you use killa kanz in freebootas, id say putting killa reputation on your big mek is a good idea, to get +1 leadership for your killa kanz. and i guess also if you run buggies in 3s, then killa reputation is, again, good.

Surprised to see waagh banner and killakans moving up… I’m still going with this is a 1 off not norm.

Killrigs about time they made a showing. Still think 2x are the sweet spot supporting buggies but we will see.
I hope beastsnagga and squig riders stay competitive I would really like some variety for orks.

1) freebooter speedwaagh alpha strike
2) army of renown speedmob bike, deffkopta buggy spam
3) triple patrol trukkboy, kommando, stormboy rush
4) beastsnagga Killrig/squigrider rush list

That’s what I hope ork meta options to be, but I wouldn’t say no if killakans somehow make it up there…

I play with Speef Freek Speed Mob (of Speedy Speed? Who the hell created this name? Sgt. Detritus in cooperation with Leonardo da Quirm?).

1. Well, the number of units you can choose is very limited because….
2. Obviously, rules were written before Dataslate. Due the “1unit of each buggies” rule, due the fact that Wagons are utterly useless without infantry and due the “max 2 aircarft” rule, there is really a small variety of what can be built. I don' t complain, I just inform. AoR have to be applied to the whole army, not just one detachement! So it will be always something like:

2 detachements, warboss on warbike and wartrike (one HQ supports the charge, second the artilery park in the back), 3x3deffkoptas, 3x4 warbikers, 2 jets, 3-4 units of buggies. That is it.

3. Morale is the main issue - bikers, koptas suffer the most.

4. Freebota clan is one option. Killa reputation (+1 to morale) helps significantly. However just 6” aura… With Badskull banner creates pretty obvious adepts for the choosen clan.

5. Evil Sunz on the other side seems to be surprise on the first look. Give a Wartrike the Redee paint and Fasta Than Yooz for Advance and Charge for ES CORE = warbikers and you can make 20” move + charge with bikers and 14+9+2=25” + charge with Ramming Speed with Trike. Cool.

However, the significant drawback of ES scenario is that such furious charge hits like a wet noodle. Wartrike is week and due the Morale, you can take max about 4 warbikers in a squad = something like 4-5 dead Necron Warriors / scitary.

6. Strategems are interesting. Most of the ork strategems in this new book is interesting. However, not game breaking.

7. Take more Koptas or Bikers will push the list to very powerfull level pretty fast. However - MORALE!

8. Kustom Job on one model only makes sence. Kustom job on ONE MODEL UNIT only definitely do not. It wrecks the whole point of Kustom Jobz.

CONCLUSION:
It is exciting but I'm not sure how sucessfull this will be…

5. Evil Sunz on the other side seems to be surprise on the first look. Give a Wartrike the Redee paint and Fasta Than Yooz for Advance and Charge for ES CORE = warbikers and you can make 20” move + charge with bikers and 14+9+2=25” + charge with Ramming Speed with Trike. Cool.

Where are you getting the adv and charge on the trike from?

With the super cyborg body, if the weapon attacking does 3 damage do we round up or down when we halve the damage?

Round up, unless otherwise noted.

blufury wrote:

5. Evil Sunz on the other side seems to be surprise on the first look. Give a Wartrike the Redee paint and Fasta Than Yooz for Advance and Charge for ES CORE = warbikers and you can make 20” move + charge with bikers and 14+9+2=25” + charge with Ramming Speed with Trike. Cool.

Where are you getting the adv and charge on the trike from?

Good point. It is just for one another CORE unit. Not for the trike. So another con.

 Tomsug wrote:

blufury wrote:

5. Evil Sunz on the other side seems to be surprise on the first look. Give a Wartrike the Redee paint and Fasta Than Yooz for Advance and Charge for ES CORE = warbikers and you can make 20” move + charge with bikers and 14+9+2=25” + charge with Ramming Speed with Trike. Cool.

Where are you getting the adv and charge on the trike from?

Good point. It is just for one another CORE unit. Not for the trike. So another con.

The lack of adv/charge options is very disappointing. However, even a 16" move puts you in a decent spot to t1 charge with ramming speed, if you really wanted to.

blufury wrote:

5. Evil Sunz on the other side seems to be surprise on the first look. Give a Wartrike the Redee paint and Fasta Than Yooz for Advance and Charge for ES CORE = warbikers and you can make 20” move + charge with bikers and 14+9+2=25” + charge with Ramming Speed with Trike. Cool.

Where are you getting the adv and charge on the trike from?

Faster Than Yooz gives an ES core unit within 6 advance and charge.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

blufury wrote:

5. Evil Sunz on the other side seems to be surprise on the first look. Give a Wartrike the Redee paint and Fasta Than Yooz for Advance and Charge for ES CORE = warbikers and you can make 20” move + charge with bikers and 14+9+2=25” + charge with Ramming Speed with Trike. Cool.

Where are you getting the adv and charge on the trike from?

Faster Than Yooz gives an ES core unit within 6 advance and charge.

Right, but a trike isn't core. Only the bikes are.

Speedmob is strong morale is negliable for most of the list…
Warboss on bike, wartrike, aircraft, 2x buggies or less, 3x warbikers or 3x deffkoptas Don’t care.
3x buggies you shouldn’t really have except squigbuggies which hide out of sight, 5x warbikers… only care if you roll extremely poorly on morale.

5+ warbikers or 5x+ deffkoptas can mitigate loss with auto pass strat or outdasun strat. The yare important and strong in this list but should be limited to 2/1 units respectively.

Speed mob is insane durability and increased damage potential and I expect to see it hit the meta hard in the next 2 weeks. And some of the Strats are borderline Op. 6 mortal wounds on charge for deffkoptas will be cried about, out da sun is already called broken and expected to be nerfed… stacking specialist unit and speed mob is likely unintended and strong on deffkoptas… ap-4 rokkits during waaagh yes please. Fallback and shoot is a great recover strat that people literally took bloodaxes just for alone, reroll 1 to hit is incredibly strong on dakkajets and 2-3x kbb or 9x warbikers.

Honestly I don’t expect speed mob not to get nerfed. So I respectfully disagree. Out da sun alone i will bet money on gets faq’d. No way they let you go into reserves same turn you enter play from reserves, let alone allowing this to work in combat. This allows deffkoptas to shoot and never get hit.

blufury wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:

blufury wrote:

5. Evil Sunz on the other side seems to be surprise on the first look. Give a Wartrike the Redee paint and Fasta Than Yooz for Advance and Charge for ES CORE = warbikers and you can make 20” move + charge with bikers and 14+9+2=25” + charge with Ramming Speed with Trike. Cool.

Where are you getting the adv and charge on the trike from?

Faster Than Yooz gives an ES core unit within 6 advance and charge.

Right, but a trike isn't core. Only the bikes are.

My mistake, I read it as meaning "how is the trike bestowing adv and charge onto something else" rather than actually taking the time to engage some brain cells

 Tomsug wrote:
I play with Speef Freek Speed Mob (of Speedy Speed? Who the hell created this name? Sgt. Detritus in cooperation with Leonardo da Quirm?).

The books seems to be referring to the army of renown mostly as "Speed Mob". Maybe we should do the same.

gungo wrote:
Speedmob is strong morale is negliable for most of the list…
Warboss on bike, wartrike, aircraft, 2x buggies or less, 3x warbikers or 3x deffkoptas Don’t care.
3x buggies you shouldn’t really have except squigbuggies which hide out of sight, 5x warbikers… only care if you roll extremely poorly on morale.

5+ warbikers or 5x+ deffkoptas can mitigate loss with auto pass strat or outdasun strat. The yare important and strong in this list but should be limited to 2/1 units respectively.

Speed mob is insane durability and increased damage potential and I expect to see it hit the meta hard in the next 2 weeks. And some of the Strats are borderline Op. 6 mortal wounds on charge for deffkoptas will be cried about, out da sun is already called broken and expected to be nerfed… stacking specialist unit and speed mob is likely unintended and strong on deffkoptas… ap-4 rokkits during waaagh yes please. Fallback and shoot is a great recover strat that people literally took bloodaxes just for alone, reroll 1 to hit is incredibly strong on dakkajets and 2-3x kbb or 9x warbikers.

Honestly I don’t expect speed mob not to get nerfed. So I respectfully disagree. Out da sun alone i will bet money on gets faq’d. No way they let you go into reserves same turn you enter play from reserves, let alone allowing this to work in combat. This allows deffkoptas to shoot and never get hit.

I have a list already and I gonna give it a try in TTS in next few weeks. We ' ll see.
1.OUT O DA SUN is obviously wrong, it should be nerfed like other similar abilities “select one DK unit that was on the table on the beginning of the turn” and honestly I gonna play it like this already. Otherwise it' s a dickheadism.

But the rest?

2. More gitz over there - 1CP fallback and shoot. Good, but not gamebreaking
3. Blitza Dakka - 1 CP for rerroll of 1 to hit in shooting, if enemy within 12” - well, you don ' t want to get your buggies so close. So you can use it on the deffkoptas and than charge. That is good and seems to be too good just in co,bination with the rest (boomboyz deffkoptas..)
4. Chaaaarge - 2CP +1S and -1AP on warbikers charge - not bad, but as I said - about 3-5 warbikers do not benefit so much and for 2 CP it is too expensive imho. Interesting on unit of 3 scrapjets.
5. Crashin through - 1 CP for damage about 3MW in charge. Just shift the bikers and other buggies to scrapjet / KBB level and improves scrapjet / KBB for a nice bit. Good, but not broken.

All together, it can make a strong and dangerous mix. I agree. But I' m not sure, it will be better than improved Freeboota lists. And on this competition, just one of two similar builds takes the price.

But we' ll see. The new selection of strategems and synergies is definitely more interesting than the codex one.

First off crashing thru is 6mw on average on 6x deffkoptas NOT 3… that’s the broken part

Second blitza Dakka 12in or closer is EXACTLY where KBB want to be with thier 4d6 (lowest roll of 3 w pyromaniac specialist) 8in flamers and 18in for max shot Dakka gun and 12in pistol. OH and they get reroll 1 AND 2. So you can reroll 1 on your 4+ to hit Dakkajet during a speedwaagh for 3.5 extra hits and ~3 extra hits for 2x KBB (flamers already auto hit)

I don’t think charge is amazing…

And out da sun is twice the points of the ad mech version… I still think it will be faq so you can’t reserve drop and back to reserve same turn though… but it’s currently overpowered especially if you are using TO The Last secondary on 4-5x deffkoptas)

advancing 9 warbikers, shooting and charging with +1 str and 1 more extra AP does not sound like anything to sneeze at.

Beardedragon wrote:
advancing 9 warbikers, shooting and charging with +1 str and 1 more extra AP does not sound like anything to sneeze at.

they also get an extra atk each in a speedmob.. it makes ork warbikers one of the best units in game for the points.

But my problem with charge is 2cp where str +1 only takes a regular non nob warbiker from str5 to str6… which is just an odd point where it rarely makes huge difference.. I mean you can give the nob a big choppa instead of PK so you save a few points and don’t get -1 to hit to move him from str7 to str 8 which is a much bigger difference. It’s a strat I’ll use if I can get all 9x warbikers in combat.