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Hey yeah?

That is about Crusade.

I got a couple of very noob questions if you will indulge me.

I’m still not clear on obsec, if I have 10 Kommandos on an objective and my buddy has 1 marine chaplain on a bike who holds the objective? This happened in the last game and he claimed the objective, would there be any difference if the Kommandos were Boyz?
I play Goffs so don’t have the DeffSkulls obsec trait.

Secondly, any tips on speeding the games up. I have played about 8 games now and they are painfully slow. I know it may speed up as I get to know my units better but right now it’s really holding up the size of the armies as the games don’t get finished.
It may also mean that my force isn’t Killy enough so I’m happy to take tips on that too.

DoktaRoksta wrote:
I got a couple of very noob questions if you will indulge me.

I’m still not clear on obsec, if I have 10 Kommandos on an objective and my buddy has 1 marine chaplain on a bike who holds the objective? This happened in the last game and he claimed the objective, would there be any difference if the Kommandos were Boyz?
I play Goffs so don’t have the DeffSkulls obsec trait.

Secondly, any tips on speeding the games up. I have played about 8 games now and they are painfully slow. I know it may speed up as I get to know my units better but right now it’s really holding up the size of the armies as the games don’t get finished.
It may also mean that my force isn’t Killy enough so I’m happy to take tips on that too.

Unless the Chaplain had Objective Secured, it's based entirely on the number of models within 3".

If only one side has Objective Secured, they control that objective.

If both sides have Objective Secured, then it goes back to number of models.

Marines have various ways of making non-Troops count as ObSec. A Warlord Trait that the Chaplain can have, for one.

 JNAProductions wrote:

DoktaRoksta wrote:
I got a couple of very noob questions if you will indulge me.

I’m still not clear on obsec, if I have 10 Kommandos on an objective and my buddy has 1 marine chaplain on a bike who holds the objective? This happened in the last game and he claimed the objective, would there be any difference if the Kommandos were Boyz?
I play Goffs so don’t have the DeffSkulls obsec trait.

Secondly, any tips on speeding the games up. I have played about 8 games now and they are painfully slow. I know it may speed up as I get to know my units better but right now it’s really holding up the size of the armies as the games don’t get finished.
It may also mean that my force isn’t Killy enough so I’m happy to take tips on that too.

Unless the Chaplain had Objective Secured, it's based entirely on the number of models within 3".

If only one side has Objective Secured, they control that objective.

If both sides have Objective Secured, then it goes back to number of models.

Marines have various ways of making non-Troops count as ObSec. A Warlord Trait that the Chaplain can have, for one.

Thanks for the response.
He said all marines possess ObSec and I don’t know their codex enough to contradict him. I don’t think he was relying on a warlord trait, just a general statement that all marines have obsec. He plays ultramarines if that makes a difference.

DoktaRoksta wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

DoktaRoksta wrote:
I got a couple of very noob questions if you will indulge me.

I’m still not clear on obsec, if I have 10 Kommandos on an objective and my buddy has 1 marine chaplain on a bike who holds the objective? This happened in the last game and he claimed the objective, would there be any difference if the Kommandos were Boyz?
I play Goffs so don’t have the DeffSkulls obsec trait.

Secondly, any tips on speeding the games up. I have played about 8 games now and they are painfully slow. I know it may speed up as I get to know my units better but right now it’s really holding up the size of the armies as the games don’t get finished.
It may also mean that my force isn’t Killy enough so I’m happy to take tips on that too.

Unless the Chaplain had Objective Secured, it's based entirely on the number of models within 3".

If only one side has Objective Secured, they control that objective.

If both sides have Objective Secured, then it goes back to number of models.

Marines have various ways of making non-Troops count as ObSec. A Warlord Trait that the Chaplain can have, for one.

Thanks for the response.
He said all marines possess ObSec and I don’t know their codex enough to contradict him. I don’t think he was relying on a warlord trait, just a general statement that all marines have obsec. He plays ultramarines if that makes a difference.

He's either mistaken or cheating.

Only Troops in a Marines Detachment have ObSec naturally. Custodes have more than that, but not Marines.

It's for Crusade only for that article, so unfortunately not really relevant for matched play.

 Insularum wrote:
The way I read it, Trukk Boyz are affected.

1. "Count as stationery" is not sufficient on it's own to allow a transport to move and disembark passengers.
2. You can only move and disembark passengers if either the transport or the unit on board has an explicit rule to allow move and disembark.
3. Even if you have a rule that allows move and disembark, you cannot then charge during the same turn.

Only part 1 refers to "count as stationary", which is irrelevant to Trukk Boyz, but Trukk Boyz is an explicit rule to allow move and disembark so qualifies for parts 2 and 3. To say that Trukk Boyz is given a pass because it isn't a count as stationary rule misses the point - as part 1 clarifies that count as stationary is never relevant for move and disembark, part 3 must be a blanket rule.

Totally understand why you'd think that as it's layed out in a very confusing fashion. The statement that "even if you have a rule that allows move and disembark you cannot charge this turn" is actually part 7 of 9 subsections that refer to "rules that count as remaining stationary" The 9 subsections are even pre emptied by the statement "the following rules apply to these types of rules" so the inability to charge after disembarking only refers to scenarios where previously people could have argued that their ultramarine primaris who just disembarked from a moved impulsor (and who as a result of the impulsor rules wouldn't be able to charge) are able to charge as a result of their ultramarine rules which mean they count as stationary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EmperorForearm wrote:
Rare Rules Shooting While Embarked #9 Transports under the effects of a dice roll modifier bestow the modifier to the embarked units ranged attacks.

Trukk Boy warboss inside trukk with lootas, flash gits etc unit now officially buffs the shooty unit.

Wow... That's going to take some analysis but... You may be right


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also does that modifier on a transport vehicle now bestow the additional-1 ap to the passenger if a speed waaagh is called?

CaptainO wrote:
Totally understand why you'd think that as it's layed out in a very confusing fashion. The statement that "even if you have a rule that allows move and disembark you cannot charge this turn" is actually part 7 of 9 subsections that refer to "rules that count as remaining stationary" The 9 subsections are even pre emptied by the statement "the following rules apply to these types of rules" so the inability to charge after disembarking only refers to scenarios where previously people could have argued that their ultramarine primaris who just disembarked from a moved impulsor (and who as a result of the impulsor rules wouldn't be able to charge) are able to charge as a result of their ultramarine rules which mean they count as stationary.

Sorry but I still disagree, I still think it blocks Trukk Boyz charging. In spoilers is the long answer for why I think it applies, but the short answer is that Trukk Boyz is implicitly a counts as stationary rule, as it allows a transport that has moved to perform an ability that normally requires it to remain stationary, which per point 5 of the "Rules that count as remaining stationary" rare rules is enough to qualify it for this section:

5. Such rules mean that any other rules (abilities, Stratagems etc.)
that are used or triggered when a unit Remains Stationary (e.g.
Grinding Advance) can be used/are triggered.

 Insularum wrote:

CaptainO wrote:
Totally understand why you'd think that as it's layed out in a very confusing fashion. The statement that "even if you have a rule that allows move and disembark you cannot charge this turn" is actually part 7 of 9 subsections that refer to "rules that count as remaining stationary" The 9 subsections are even pre emptied by the statement "the following rules apply to these types of rules" so the inability to charge after disembarking only refers to scenarios where previously people could have argued that their ultramarine primaris who just disembarked from a moved impulsor (and who as a result of the impulsor rules wouldn't be able to charge) are able to charge as a result of their ultramarine rules which mean they count as stationary.

Sorry but I still disagree, I still think it blocks Trukk Boyz charging. In spoilers is the long answer for why I think it applies, but the short answer is that Trukk Boyz is implicitly a counts as stationary rule, as it allows a transport that has moved to perform an ability that normally requires it to remain stationary, which per point 5 of the "Rules that count as remaining stationary" rare rules is enough to qualify it for this section:

5. Such rules mean that any other rules (abilities, Stratagems etc.)
that are used or triggered when a unit Remains Stationary (e.g.
Grinding Advance) can be used/are triggered.

Spoiler:

Point 8 of the "Count as stationary" rare rules totally shuts down any possibility of Ultramarines charging out of Impulsors, if that is the only point of the FAQ it needs no further detail. The abilities that Ultramarines may or may not have are not relevant to Orks here.

8. If a unit has disembarked from a Transport model, rules
which allow that unit to be treated as though it has Remained
Stationary have no effect.

Point 7 specifically calls out that you need something other than counts as stationary to allow a unit to disembark after moving, and if you make use of it then you cannot charge.

7. Even if a Transport model is subject to such a rule, embarked
models still cannot disembark from that Transport during the
Movement phase if that Transport has already moved, unless
that Transport (or the models embarked within it) have a rule
that explicitly allows them to disembark after the Transport
has moved (but if a unit does so, it cannot then charge during
the same turn).

Even if I am wrong and Trukk Boyz is not equivalent to a counts as stationary rule, what is the point of the green highlighted text at all if this is purely a "counts as stationary" only clarification? You already cannot count as stationary the transport itself into unloading units, and disembarked units themselves cannot count as stationary. There is literally no point to the highlighted section other than to block Trukk Boyz style rules.

I know Goonhammer isn't the Bible or anything but they agree that the rule doesn't effect trukkboyz
https://www.goonhammer.com/the-q1-40k-balance-dataslate-and-faqs-analysis-and-hot-takes/





Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't currently run trukkboyz anyway.

I'm more interested in people's thoughts on whether units loaded in trukks get the additional -1ap (and additional dakka shot) during a speed waaagh.

They do not, that rule does not modify a die roll made by the Truck ergo the rare rule does not apply.

EmperorForearm wrote:
Rare Rules Shooting While Embarked #9 Transports under the effects of a dice roll modifier bestow the modifier to the embarked units ranged attacks.

Trukk Boy warboss inside trukk with lootas, flash gits etc unit now officially buffs the shooty unit.

lol no they do not, the restrictions are part of the modifier.

Example ability = +1 to hit for models in this unit armed with heavy weapons

If applied to a transport the transport gets +1 to hit for heavy weapons and so do embarked models with heavy weapons - models with assault weapons do not. The restriction in this case is the unit has to be armed with heavy weapons

For trukk boys the ability = TRUKK model makes a ranged attack, add 1 to that attack’s hit roll. The restriction in this case is the unit has to be a trukk.

so no +1 unless that embarked unit is another trukk

I'm getting into 9th for the first time, I haven't played 40k since The Sickness began.

It looks like Deffkoptas are kind of awful right now - Am I missing something? Heavy Weapons on a mobile platform means they're mostly going to be hitting on 6s, defeating the purpose of a mobile firing battery. Tankbustas at least get a BS boost against vehicles to offset the penalty; Deffkoptas feel a little left out in the cold in comparison. Weighing 5 Tankbustas in a Trukk versus 3 Deffkoptas, the Deffkoptas can fly and are a little better in close combat, but the Tankbusta Trukk is more durable, only loses firepower after soaking ten wounds instead of four, has greater accuracy, has more shots against units with 5+ models and only marginally fewer shots otherwise. (We could also compare 6 Deffkoptas to a Battlewagon with 10 Tankbustas, which has similar results.)

Am I missing something?

Only Infantry suffer the move and shoot with Heavy penalty.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Only Infantry suffer the move and shoot with Heavy penalty.

This. Deffkoptas are vehicles, not infantry.
So 2d3 shots at 5+ to hit per model even after move.
And since they are vehicles, they also benefit the additional - 1 AP of the speedwaagh.

Waaaghpower wrote:
I'm getting into 9th for the first time, I haven't played 40k since The Sickness began.

It looks like Deffkoptas are kind of awful right now - Am I missing something? Heavy Weapons on a mobile platform means they're mostly going to be hitting on 6s, defeating the purpose of a mobile firing battery. Tankbustas at least get a BS boost against vehicles to offset the penalty; Deffkoptas feel a little left out in the cold in comparison. Weighing 5 Tankbustas in a Trukk versus 3 Deffkoptas, the Deffkoptas can fly and are a little better in close combat, but the Tankbusta Trukk is more durable, only loses firepower after soaking ten wounds instead of four, has greater accuracy, has more shots against units with 5+ models and only marginally fewer shots otherwise. (We could also compare 6 Deffkoptas to a Battlewagon with 10 Tankbustas, which has similar results.)

Am I missing something?

yes, ur missing this, potential for 6d3 mortal wounds on a charge =6-18 mortal wounds

 JNAProductions wrote:
Only Infantry suffer the move and shoot with Heavy penalty.

Agh! I should have guessed. Thank you!

Waaaghpower wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Only Infantry suffer the move and shoot with Heavy penalty.

Agh! I should have guessed. Thank you!

No worries-there’s lot of little changes you need to learn.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Only Infantry suffer the move and shoot with Heavy penalty.

Agh! I should have guessed. Thank you!

No worries-there’s lot of little changes you need to learn.

I'm really excited to start playing - so far every change and update I've read kicks ass. SO many quality of life improvements and just plain fun mechanics that I missed having in 8th edition. (Auras are fine and all, but they can't beat a proper Waaagh!)

 kingbbobb wrote:


yes, ur missing this, potential for 6d3 mortal wounds on a charge =6-18 mortal wounds

I must have missed this, did Speed Freeks get turned into an army of renown in one of the campaign books? Also, it's a bit disappointing the Stratagem is improved for Scrapjets but no bonus for Deffrollas

On the subject of general 9th changes - It seems like Orks got major buffs across the board, excepting certain OP/cheese (and probably unintended) comboes like Loota Bombs.

Is my impression correct? And what are other armies looking like - was this done to bring Orks in line with factions like Space Marines, or did everyone get similar buffs?

Waaaghpower wrote:
On the subject of general 9th changes - It seems like Orks got major buffs across the board, excepting certain OP/cheese (and probably unintended) comboes like Loota Bombs.

Is my impression correct? And what are other armies looking like - was this done to bring Orks in line with factions like Space Marines, or did everyone get similar buffs?

I would say we got buffed when it comes to baseline datasheets for most units, barring a few exceptions (primarily grots and boyz). However, kustom jobs and stratagems got pretty gutted for the most part. So it was overall a net win. However, green tide (or at least having meaningful large boyz units) got shanked in its sleep and any notion of DreadWAAAGH being viable died as well. In most cases 9th ed codices have been very strong, barring early codices like Necrons and SM. I would say that we're just about upper middle tier, since we still rely on skew/alpha strike lists, but we don't have the hyper efficiency of drukhari to trade up like they do and we don't have the resiliency of other factions.

Madjob wrote:
They do not, that rule does not modify a die roll made by the Truck ergo the rare rule does not apply.

Yup you're right. Deffo don't get the bonus for speed waaagh as it doesn't modify the roll.

I do think the presence of a trukk boy warboss does give the trukk +1 to hit (modify the roll) so therefore based on the new rare rule would give embarked units the same +1 to hit. +1 to lootas could be good. +1 to ssag would be better (+2 for a freeboota would compensate for the -1 for moving and shooting a heavy weapon)

 Grimskul wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
On the subject of general 9th changes - It seems like Orks got major buffs across the board, excepting certain OP/cheese (and probably unintended) comboes like Loota Bombs.

Is my impression correct? And what are other armies looking like - was this done to bring Orks in line with factions like Space Marines, or did everyone get similar buffs?

I would say we got buffed when it comes to baseline datasheets for most units, barring a few exceptions (primarily grots and boyz). However, kustom jobs and stratagems got pretty gutted for the most part. So it was overall a net win. However, green tide (or at least having meaningful large boyz units) got shanked in its sleep and any notion of DreadWAAAGH being viable died as well. In most cases 9th ed codices have been very strong, barring early codices like Necrons and SM. I would say that we're just about upper middle tier, since we still rely on skew/alpha strike lists, but we don't have the hyper efficiency of drukhari to trade up like they do and we don't have the resiliency of other factions.

I know you can't bring as many or units given the price bump, but did the performance drop off that harshly even with the buff to Shootas and toughness? My gut feeling coming from 8th is that the bump from T4 to T5 makes a whole host of anti-infantry weapons a lot less useful and increase the durability of boyz quite a bit, but I could be overestimating the value in my head.

I really can't see Grots being worth 5 points though. That just seems absurd to me and is the main change I don't understand at this point.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
On the subject of general 9th changes - It seems like Orks got major buffs across the board, excepting certain OP/cheese (and probably unintended) comboes like Loota Bombs.

Is my impression correct? And what are other armies looking like - was this done to bring Orks in line with factions like Space Marines, or did everyone get similar buffs?

I would say we got buffed when it comes to baseline datasheets for most units, barring a few exceptions (primarily grots and boyz). However, kustom jobs and stratagems got pretty gutted for the most part. So it was overall a net win. However, green tide (or at least having meaningful large boyz units) got shanked in its sleep and any notion of DreadWAAAGH being viable died as well. In most cases 9th ed codices have been very strong, barring early codices like Necrons and SM. I would say that we're just about upper middle tier, since we still rely on skew/alpha strike lists, but we don't have the hyper efficiency of drukhari to trade up like they do and we don't have the resiliency of other factions.

I know you can't bring as many or units given the price bump, but did the performance drop off that harshly even with the buff to Shootas and toughness? My gut feeling coming from 8th is that the bump from T4 to T5 makes a whole host of anti-infantry weapons a lot less useful and increase the durability of boyz quite a bit, but I could be overestimating the value in my head.

I really can't see Grots being worth 5 points though. That just seems absurd to me and is the main change I don't understand at this point.

With the price hike boyz received to 9 points and losing not only Unstoppable Green Tide strat but our baseline mob rule (we don't have Ld30 mobz anymore) and even the +1A for having 20 or more boyz being taken away, boyz have been supplanted by specialists with more efficiency and use like MSU Stormboyz and Kommandos. The fact that they suffer so strongly from morale since they've made Breakin Eads a 2CP strat means that even killing 6-7 boyz from a full mob can result in a significant amount of the rest of the mob fleeing since they're almost guaranteed to fail morale. This means an opponent no longer needs to overcommit to killing a full squad of boyz that can autopass morale so they can use the 3CP to respond elsewhere on the board, which means chip damage will inflict surprising amount of damage on several large boyz squads, which is very easy to do in the current meta where killing potential has gone through the roof. The KFF also has become nerfed to only have a once per game 9" bubble of 5++ save, which is not enough to save the current boyz from the amount of shooting this edition. Furthermore, shootas are basically obselete as a unit, because having one extra shot at 9" is incredibly lacklustre, especially on a B5+ platform that will rarely have the opportunity to get that close to an enemy more than once, and can no longer advance and shoot with them. Choppas are far superior in comparison, especially with extra attack and AP provided by it. Currently you'll only see Trukk Boyz being used if possible, simply because of their mobility and ability to apply pressure to a flank rather than their ability to do meaningful damage. Unfortunately, boyz basically lack a role in the army beyond being basically a troop tax because they barely support what the rest of the army can do and the army itself no longer has tools that once made them an indispensable part of the army.

 Grimskul wrote:

With the price hike boyz received to 9 points and losing not only Unstoppable Green Tide strat but our baseline mob rule (we don't have Ld30 mobz anymore) and even the +1A for having 20 or more boyz being taken away, boyz have been supplanted by specialists with more efficiency and use like MSU Stormboyz and Kommandos. The fact that they suffer so strongly from morale since they've made Breakin Eads a 2CP strat means that even killing 6-7 boyz from a full mob can result in a significant amount of the rest of the mob fleeing since they're almost guaranteed to fail morale. This means an opponent no longer needs to overcommit to killing a full squad of boyz that can autopass morale so they can use the 3CP to respond elsewhere on the board, which means chip damage will inflict surprising amount of damage on several large boyz squads, which is very easy to do in the current meta where killing potential has gone through the roof. The KFF also has become nerfed to only have a once per game 9" bubble of 5++ save, which is not enough to save the current boyz from the amount of shooting this edition. Furthermore, shootas are basically obselete as a unit, because having one extra shot at 9" is incredibly lacklustre, especially on a B5+ platform that will rarely have the opportunity to get that close to an enemy more than once, and can no longer advance and shoot with them. Choppas are far superior in comparison, especially with extra attack and AP provided by it. Currently you'll only see Trukk Boyz being used if possible, simply because of their mobility and ability to apply pressure to a flank rather than their ability to do meaningful damage. Unfortunately, boyz basically lack a role in the army beyond being basically a troop tax because they barely support what the rest of the army can do and the army itself no longer has tools that once made them an indispensable part of the army.

That all makes a lot of sense, thanks for explaining. I didn't notice the horde bonus attack was gone, and haven't been taking into account the sheer effect that nerfed stratagems and buffs can have.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

With the price hike boyz received to 9 points and losing not only Unstoppable Green Tide strat but our baseline mob rule (we don't have Ld30 mobz anymore) and even the +1A for having 20 or more boyz being taken away, boyz have been supplanted by specialists with more efficiency and use like MSU Stormboyz and Kommandos. The fact that they suffer so strongly from morale since they've made Breakin Eads a 2CP strat means that even killing 6-7 boyz from a full mob can result in a significant amount of the rest of the mob fleeing since they're almost guaranteed to fail morale. This means an opponent no longer needs to overcommit to killing a full squad of boyz that can autopass morale so they can use the 3CP to respond elsewhere on the board, which means chip damage will inflict surprising amount of damage on several large boyz squads, which is very easy to do in the current meta where killing potential has gone through the roof. The KFF also has become nerfed to only have a once per game 9" bubble of 5++ save, which is not enough to save the current boyz from the amount of shooting this edition. Furthermore, shootas are basically obselete as a unit, because having one extra shot at 9" is incredibly lacklustre, especially on a B5+ platform that will rarely have the opportunity to get that close to an enemy more than once, and can no longer advance and shoot with them. Choppas are far superior in comparison, especially with extra attack and AP provided by it. Currently you'll only see Trukk Boyz being used if possible, simply because of their mobility and ability to apply pressure to a flank rather than their ability to do meaningful damage. Unfortunately, boyz basically lack a role in the army beyond being basically a troop tax because they barely support what the rest of the army can do and the army itself no longer has tools that once made them an indispensable part of the army.

That all makes a lot of sense, thanks for explaining. I didn't notice the horde bonus attack was gone, and haven't been taking into account the sheer effect that nerfed stratagems and buffs can have.

No problem! I honestly wish this wasn't the case, since I was always happy that Orks usually had very strong troops compared to some other armies (it was usually our elites that struggled) so it's very jarring to the see the flip over to toyz over boyz. For boyz to be relevant, they would need a complete rewrite of their current datasheet at the moment, they really don't do anything distinctly as a troops choice that other specialist boyz don't do. I think them actually splitting the datasheet between a dedicated shoota boyz and slugga boyz variant might actually be good to give them some sort of focus (though with the current new boyz kit being as dumb for loadouts as is, this is unlikely).

 Grimskul wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

With the price hike boyz received to 9 points and losing not only Unstoppable Green Tide strat but our baseline mob rule (we don't have Ld30 mobz anymore) and even the +1A for having 20 or more boyz being taken away, boyz have been supplanted by specialists with more efficiency and use like MSU Stormboyz and Kommandos. The fact that they suffer so strongly from morale since they've made Breakin Eads a 2CP strat means that even killing 6-7 boyz from a full mob can result in a significant amount of the rest of the mob fleeing since they're almost guaranteed to fail morale. This means an opponent no longer needs to overcommit to killing a full squad of boyz that can autopass morale so they can use the 3CP to respond elsewhere on the board, which means chip damage will inflict surprising amount of damage on several large boyz squads, which is very easy to do in the current meta where killing potential has gone through the roof. The KFF also has become nerfed to only have a once per game 9" bubble of 5++ save, which is not enough to save the current boyz from the amount of shooting this edition. Furthermore, shootas are basically obselete as a unit, because having one extra shot at 9" is incredibly lacklustre, especially on a B5+ platform that will rarely have the opportunity to get that close to an enemy more than once, and can no longer advance and shoot with them. Choppas are far superior in comparison, especially with extra attack and AP provided by it. Currently you'll only see Trukk Boyz being used if possible, simply because of their mobility and ability to apply pressure to a flank rather than their ability to do meaningful damage. Unfortunately, boyz basically lack a role in the army beyond being basically a troop tax because they barely support what the rest of the army can do and the army itself no longer has tools that once made them an indispensable part of the army.

That all makes a lot of sense, thanks for explaining. I didn't notice the horde bonus attack was gone, and haven't been taking into account the sheer effect that nerfed stratagems and buffs can have.

No problem! I honestly wish this wasn't the case, since I was always happy that Orks usually had very strong troops compared to some other armies (it was usually our elites that struggled) so it's very jarring to the see the flip over to toyz over boyz. For boyz to be relevant, they would need a complete rewrite of their current datasheet at the moment, they really don't do anything distinctly as a troops choice that other specialist boyz don't do. I think them actually splitting the datasheet between a dedicated shoota boyz and slugga boyz variant might actually be good to give them some sort of focus (though with the current new boyz kit being as dumb for loadouts as is, this is unlikely).

I wouldn't be surprised if this was deliberate on GW's part to try and speed up gameplay by quietly discouraging horde armies. I noticed a decent handful of changes that speed up the game in 9th edition, (removing universal Overwatch, for example,) which I'm mostly in favor of, though actually nerfing horde units is a step too far IMO.

So have we established a definitive answer for Trukkboys and charging?

If not I'll make a YMDC thread to stop the discussion in here being muddied up.

Even goonhammer was like we think this is fine but it’s pretty badly written.
So that’s the current consensus

I’m regretting the day the new ork boy kit takes over and in typical GW fashion we are limited to a specific loadout of mixed shoota/choppa units.