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If boyz went to 6ppm (which they wont this edition) they would have to reduce grots to 2 models per 5 points spend, and i also highly doubt that will happen.

GW is doing everything they can to prevent factions from being too horde esque, which is why when our grots are 5ppm now, we still arent incentivised to spam them with +1 to your attrition roll and a pitiful leadership of 4.

GW does not want us to spam too hard, so boyz at 6ppm wont happen. i highly doubt they even go to 7 ppm without changes to grots either. And that i doubt will happen. because you would see an absolute sea of grots if they went to 2 models at 5ppm.

I'm fine with them not having us spam models if that meant that they were actually worth taking for the points. As is, it feels arbitrary and wrong that our core units actively make our list worse than if we don't take them.

Dark synergy rised up from deepest deeps of the internet:

Attack out of da Sun is used on the end of the turn. So you can use it MULTIPLE TIMES PER TURN! So you can have 3x6 Koptas disappear on the end.

Because rules for strategems EXPLICITELY EXCLUDE the End of the Turn strategems from the limitation “once per phase”

And you can score Stranglehold with them because it is counted also On the end of the turn and RAW the player whos turn it is decide the sequencing.

And yes, it ´ s 4VP per turn, so unless BloodAxe combos you can do it once, maybe twice a game. No more. And you can be screened out to the corners of your own deployment zone. So it ´s definitely not such broken as it seems on the first sight.

Who will be the first one who do it in online stream of the final round of some GT and cause the seizure to Sigler and comp. ?

Beardedragon wrote:
If boyz went to 6ppm (which they wont this edition) they would have to reduce grots to 2 models per 5 points spend, and i also highly doubt that will happen.

GW is doing everything they can to prevent factions from being too horde esque, which is why when our grots are 5ppm now, we still arent incentivised to spam them with +1 to your attrition roll and a pitiful leadership of 4.

GW does not want us to spam too hard, so boyz at 6ppm wont happen. i highly doubt they even go to 7 ppm without changes to grots either. And that i doubt will happen. because you would see an absolute sea of grots if they went to 2 models at 5ppm.

Boyz at 9ppm are fine, so are gretchins at 5ppm considering the points costs of the units from all the factions in 9th. They just need better rules/stats, not to be cheaper. They're both already among the cheapest troops in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tomsug wrote:
Dark synergy rised up from deepest deeps of the internet:

Attack out of da Sun is used on the end of the turn. So you can use it MULTIPLE TIMES PER TURN! So you can have 3x6 Koptas disappear on the end.

Because rules for strategems EXPLICITELY EXCLUDE the End of the Turn strategems from the limitation “once per phase”

That sounds more like a loophole/mistake than an intended mechanics. I don't think it'll last.

Beardedragon wrote:
If boyz went to 6ppm (which they wont this edition) they would have to reduce grots to 2 models per 5 points spend, and i also highly doubt that will happen.

GW is doing everything they can to prevent factions from being too horde esque, which is why when our grots are 5ppm now, we still arent incentivised to spam them with +1 to your attrition roll and a pitiful leadership of 4.

GW does not want us to spam too hard, so boyz at 6ppm wont happen. i highly doubt they even go to 7 ppm without changes to grots either. And that i doubt will happen. because you would see an absolute sea of grots if they went to 2 models at 5ppm.

I'd be happy for grots to stay at 5ppm if they were worth taking at 5ppm. Make Grot Shields a datasheet ability where they confer a 5++ on units being shot at through the grots (passed saves take casualties from the grot unit) and boom, grots are very reasonably priced as a utility unit even with a terrible statline.

If boys had an ability that increased how many boys can fight at once (like the one Hormagaunts get) and an actually worthwhile mob rule they would be definitely worth their 9ppm.

I could see shoota boys getting a price drop if they were a separate datasheet though.

 Blackie wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:
Dark synergy rised up from deepest deeps of the internet:

Attack out of da Sun is used on the end of the turn. So you can use it MULTIPLE TIMES PER TURN! So you can have 3x6 Koptas disappear on the end.

Because rules for strategems EXPLICITELY EXCLUDE the End of the Turn strategems from the limitation “once per phase”

That sounds more like a loophole/mistake than an intended mechanics. I don't think it'll last.

Well, I don' t have a confidence to say, what is what. And I have a stronger and stronger feeling of some ork PTSD “we cannot have a strong combo because ugly GW so if we found something, it should be a mistake”. Or at least I feel it on myself…

This combo is nothing new. It last over two dataslates and some faqs/nerfs for 4-5 months already. What surprised me is, that nobody found it jet. We should see it 4-5 months ago.

Generaly the “use multiple times “mechanic on strategems is nothing new and widely used. We use it for Extra Gunbinz and Big Boss regularly. Now as I see, we can use it for Telyporta too, which is nothing new honestly.

Is there some similar strategem situation in some other army? Anybody any ideas?

 Blackie wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
If boyz went to 6ppm (which they wont this edition) they would have to reduce grots to 2 models per 5 points spend, and i also highly doubt that will happen.

GW is doing everything they can to prevent factions from being too horde esque, which is why when our grots are 5ppm now, we still arent incentivised to spam them with +1 to your attrition roll and a pitiful leadership of 4.

GW does not want us to spam too hard, so boyz at 6ppm wont happen. i highly doubt they even go to 7 ppm without changes to grots either. And that i doubt will happen. because you would see an absolute sea of grots if they went to 2 models at 5ppm.

Boyz at 9ppm are fine, so are gretchins at 5ppm considering the points costs of the units from all the factions in 9th. They just need better rules/stats, not to be cheaper. They're both already among the cheapest troops in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tomsug wrote:
Dark synergy rised up from deepest deeps of the internet:

Attack out of da Sun is used on the end of the turn. So you can use it MULTIPLE TIMES PER TURN! So you can have 3x6 Koptas disappear on the end.

Because rules for strategems EXPLICITELY EXCLUDE the End of the Turn strategems from the limitation “once per phase”

That sounds more like a loophole/mistake than an intended mechanics. I don't think it'll last.

Talking purely out of 9th edition, I highly doubt we get better boyz with different rules added as that happens rarely. Whats most likely to happen are point reductions, and i dont see GW cutting Boyz any slacks there either. so i really have no hope for boyz atm.

On a different note since i dont really use Squighog boyz that often; Goffs dont increase the jaw attacks strength do they? As they are a fixed value?
And the consensus on straight out of da sun" is that we can use it in the same turn we appeared? So arrive turn 2, shoot, do what ever, and fly out?

Gw is mostly done w orks this edition. We will get the rest of the 9th Ed codex this year following the already leaked release schedule… and reportedly we are looking at 10th edition sometime in 2023 (probably thier usual summer release) with that likely a new space marine codex and whatever the new antagonist army is.. I mean if we are lucky it’s a return to armeggedon with something like the main antagonist being Angron vs space marines. With orks getting a focus because of the setting.

I don’t see any quick fix that GW can do to fix the majority of the ork codex especially as stretched as the rules team is…

I’m hoping 10th edition gives orks a cool new plastic unit like a unit of cyborks that gets like a base movement of 7in (like painboss) and a built in 5+ invul or fnp or something. But we also need new tankbustas, a new weirdboy, and a few characters in plastic.

 Tomsug wrote:
Dark synergy rised up from deepest deeps of the internet:

Attack out of da Sun is used on the end of the turn. So you can use it MULTIPLE TIMES PER TURN! So you can have 3x6 Koptas disappear on the end.

Because rules for strategems EXPLICITELY EXCLUDE the End of the Turn strategems from the limitation “once per phase”

And you can score Stranglehold with them because it is counted also On the end of the turn and RAW the player whos turn it is decide the sequencing.

And yes, it ´ s 4VP per turn, so unless BloodAxe combos you can do it once, maybe twice a game. No more. And you can be screened out to the corners of your own deployment zone. So it ´s definitely not such broken as it seems on the first sight.

Who will be the first one who do it in online stream of the final round of some GT and cause the seizure to Sigler and comp. ?

I saw this on Reddit. Tldr is because it occurs at the end of the turn you can use the strat multiple times.

You'll get some looks in a tournament but as far as I can see it checks out. Definitely one to send to the TO beforehand so they can be pre warned.

There is a chance that we will see another round of codex updates PA style. But yeah, outside of that, we are stuck with this mess.

One thing that I’d like to see is doing enough games collectively with the 8th dex compared to the 9th dex in at least competitively themed games at a lgs to see if the 8th dex would perform better than the 9th dex in 9th. I might be squig brained, but I think that we could do better with the 8th edition codex.

I mean 8th Ed only really had green tide.
Even a slightly cheaper boy blob w old mob rules, 5++ kff and and a few extra atks will not help.

You are basically playing the center objective game hoping your boy blob blocks the objective and survives. Even w geeentide strat. That boy blob is wiped out by turn 2-3.

Beardedragon wrote:
If boyz went to 6ppm (which they wont this edition) they would have to reduce grots to 2 models per 5 points spend, and i also highly doubt that will happen.

GW is doing everything they can to prevent factions from being too horde esque, which is why when our grots are 5ppm now, we still arent incentivised to spam them with +1 to your attrition roll and a pitiful leadership of 4.

GW does not want us to spam too hard, so boyz at 6ppm wont happen. i highly doubt they even go to 7 ppm without changes to grots either. And that i doubt will happen. because you would see an absolute sea of grots if they went to 2 models at 5ppm.

If that's the case then why do other armies have access to models at that points base?

For example Kroot are 6ppm. And I would argue this cheapness, coupled with the pre-game move and standard Move of 7" makes them far better than ork boyz.

Ultimately in this edition you want your troops to be cheap, to move up and to sit on objectives, that's by and large what most factions troops do. In some cases like Skitari rangers/vanguard they can even stack a few synergies and do some damage output as well but basically they are in your list to give you some chaff to play the mission and you can then add damage dealers or durability to taste with the rest of your points. TBH I'd take a reduction back to T4 if it meant 6 ppm any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

And as somebody else already said if Boyz are going to be 9 ppm then they need to actually do something in game to justify that. Compare an ork boy at 9 ppm to practically anything else at that price base which has even the most basic of guns and its zero comparison, Boyz are slow, hit like wet noodles now into AoC, and are wearing a t shirt so have zero durability. The T5 thing would have been nice in a bolter melta but we aren't in a bolter meta. T5 is largely irrelevant.

What box does an ork boy at 9ppm tick realistically?

gungo wrote:
I mean 8th Ed only really had green tide.
Even a slightly cheaper boy blob w old mob rules, 5++ kff and and a few extra atks will not help.

You are basically playing the center objective game hoping your boy blob blocks the objective and survives. Even w geeentide strat. That boy blob is wiped out by turn 2-3.

Boyz with their 5++ and ignore morale were a good bit tougher per point than current ones, and into power armor the more attacks with skarboyz are better into a lot of matchups. Weirdboyz were also much more reliable and we had far greater mobility in general. There’s also stuff like burna bommer, mek gunz splitting, and all that stuff.

Pickled_egg wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
If boyz went to 6ppm (which they wont this edition) they would have to reduce grots to 2 models per 5 points spend, and i also highly doubt that will happen.

GW is doing everything they can to prevent factions from being too horde esque, which is why when our grots are 5ppm now, we still arent incentivised to spam them with +1 to your attrition roll and a pitiful leadership of 4.

GW does not want us to spam too hard, so boyz at 6ppm wont happen. i highly doubt they even go to 7 ppm without changes to grots either. And that i doubt will happen. because you would see an absolute sea of grots if they went to 2 models at 5ppm.

If that's the case then why do other armies have access to models at that points base?

For example Kroot are 6ppm. And I would argue this cheapness, coupled with the pre-game move and standard Move of 7" makes them far better than ork boyz.

Ultimately in this edition you want your troops to be cheap, to move up and to sit on objectives, that's by and large what most factions troops do. In some cases like Skitari rangers/vanguard they can even stack a few synergies and do some damage output as well but basically they are in your list to give you some chaff to play the mission and you can then add damage dealers or durability to taste with the rest of your points. TBH I'd take a reduction back to T4 if it meant 6 ppm any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

And as somebody else already said if Boyz are going to be 9 ppm then they need to actually do something in game to justify that. Compare an ork boy at 9 ppm to practically anything else at that price base which has even the most basic of guns and its zero comparison, Boyz are slow, hit like wet noodles now into AoC, and are wearing a t shirt so have zero durability. The T5 thing would have been nice in a bolter melta but we aren't in a bolter meta. T5 is largely irrelevant.

What box does an ork boy at 9ppm tick realistically?

Because spamming a horde army of kroot wont win you the game, but orks have been notorious for working as a horde faction. Our damage and amount of attacks are quite decent if we can have enough models survive. In previous edition as Goffs, you could get up to like 6 attacks per model with ghaz, being above 20 models and a weirdboy.

And mind you there has been armies out there in the previous edition with up to 200 grots. GW was not interested in that in this edition so they made sure we wouldnt do that again. they even removed Obsec from our Grots. GW gave us better.. "better" defence by getting toughness 5 (but smashed the KFF and morale phase so i guess.. nothing changed) and in their mind that gave us more quality survival than we had before. but when all is added up we didnt become more duable at all. by making us 9ppm rather than 8 we couldnt horde quite as hard as before. mob rule change also made that quite a thing and the auto pass morale stratagem costing 2 CP now also means theres little incentive in even hording boyz.

An army of 2000 points of kroot wont win against 2000 points of ork boyz.

I dont think i can even recall any horde armies doing actually well competitively atm.

Is 9 voidweavers considered a horde .

I don’t get GW’s aversion to hordes though, 120 boyz is eleven boxes of boyz, that’s a solid chunk of profits especially factoring in paints.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Is 9 voidweavers considered a horde .

I don’t get GW’s aversion to hordes though, 120 boyz is eleven boxes of boyz, that’s a solid chunk of profits especially factoring in paints.

I think, and i mean only think, that it might be related to the time it takes to play over 200 grots? I mean, the general game is 2000 points at tournaments, and if you can put down an army that cant be played within the time frame of 3 hours, with their own set of 2000 points, that might set a bad example.

So maybe thats why they are cutting down on horde armies from growing too large in size. I mean sure some might be able to throw 200 grots around with extra models next to it, but a lot would struggle.

And then theres the issue of having 200 models that are all obsec. It stops incentivizes you from actually playing and just sitting on objectives, which is why i think Grots dont have Obsec.


Which is complete and utter bollocks considering the new missions have a decent junk of maps requiring units to be Obsec to gain benefits, like placing bombs or being able to move off the objective while still holding it. Nice going GW.


I swear to god, no troop choice should ever NOT have Obsec no matter what GWs reasoning is.The whole point of grots is to do actions, the whole point of boyz is to hit things. Why would i waste my Obsec boyz putting demolition charges. Thats grots work. yet here we are and grots arent even Obsec so.. yea

 Tomsug wrote:
Dark synergy rised up from deepest deeps of the internet:

Attack out of da Sun is used on the end of the turn. So you can use it MULTIPLE TIMES PER TURN! So you can have 3x6 Koptas disappear on the end.

Because rules for strategems EXPLICITELY EXCLUDE the End of the Turn strategems from the limitation “once per phase”

And you can score Stranglehold with them because it is counted also On the end of the turn and RAW the player whos turn it is decide the sequencing.

And yes, it ´ s 4VP per turn, so unless BloodAxe combos you can do it once, maybe twice a game. No more. And you can be screened out to the corners of your own deployment zone. So it ´s definitely not such broken as it seems on the first sight.

Who will be the first one who do it in online stream of the final round of some GT and cause the seizure to Sigler and comp. ?

The sequencing order is interesting as it means that it not only works with stranglehold but also behind enemy lines and engage.

I'm of the firm belief that I we want any change we're going to have to force GW to look at orks. Attack out of the sun shenanigans appears to be the only way to grab attention.

The squeeky wheel gets the grease. (And by grease I mean rules clarifications, points drops and buffs)

Madjob wrote:
Green tide would explain the KFF protection for the Boyz too - KFF covers them, Snaggas have their natural 6++. He's just counting on weight of T5 6++ and the threat of his actual punchy units to force the opponent to make hard choices on stopping scoring or letting him ram a bunch of squigs and/or MANz into the softest available targets. Makes sense that Tau would have been able to deal with it the best.

Agree with this assessment. I do a similar thing with BA and DukkAnKuvva to stop one Mob being shot. That frees the rest of the list up to work on the enemy.

As someone else mentioned Green Tide forces the opponent into choices. No one wants to pick on Boyz when Manz are around, but if it means loss of points there´s a decision.

Or maybe he did Bitz. Also possible with so many mobs.

Beardedragon wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Is 9 voidweavers considered a horde .

I don’t get GW’s aversion to hordes though, 120 boyz is eleven boxes of boyz, that’s a solid chunk of profits especially factoring in paints.

I think, and i mean only think, that it might be related to the time it takes to play over 200 grots? I mean, the general game is 2000 points at tournaments, and if you can put down an army that cant be played within the time frame of 3 hours, with their own set of 2000 points, that might set a bad example.

So maybe thats why they are cutting down on horde armies from growing too large in size. I mean sure some might be able to throw 200 grots around with extra models next to it, but a lot would struggle.

And then theres the issue of having 200 models that are all obsec. It stops incentivizes you from actually playing and just sitting on objectives, which is why i think Grots dont have Obsec.


Which is complete and utter bollocks considering the new missions have a decent junk of maps requiring units to be Obsec to gain benefits, like placing bombs or being able to move off the objective while still holding it. Nice going GW.


I swear to god, no troop choice should ever NOT have Obsec no matter what GWs reasoning is.The whole point of grots is to do actions, the whole point of boyz is to hit things. Why would i waste my Obsec boyz putting demolition charges. Thats grots work. yet here we are and grots arent even Obsec so.. yea

The thing is though is the fact that that’s player skill. There’s often chess clocks in the places where time actually matters, and if you want to run 200 grots (actually kinda small for a grot horde imo) you have to be good to actually effectively use them within the chess clock time. Also, objectives are sort of the entire point of the game, what’s wrong with making a list to prioritize sitting on them, I don’t hear people complaining about termi lists made to do that. It’s actually worse with termis imo because you actually kill a lot of grots.

 Tomsug wrote:

What surprised me is, that nobody found it jet. We should see it 4-5 months ago.

That's because you Ork players don't actually consider all your options in whatever environment you play in.

We were using attack out of da sun, ork players just aren’t schemy gitz who tend to lawyer over the little tiny details like that. Options that are viable are also just sort of a rare occurrence, there’s things that can work but you realize something else does it but just better.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Is 9 voidweavers considered a horde .

I don’t get GW’s aversion to hordes though, 120 boyz is eleven boxes of boyz, that’s a solid chunk of profits especially factoring in paints.

there was a lot of anti ork competitive players complaining about long games against horde armies not finishing in the 2.5-3 hour round limit.

I’m 90% positive ork hordes were nuked to speed up games as were alot of 9th rules changes.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
We were using attack out of da sun, ork players just aren’t schemy gitz who tend to lawyer over the little tiny details like that. Options that are viable are also just sort of a rare occurrence, there’s things that can work but you realize something else does it but just better.

And not to mention the fact that...rarely if ever are that many Koptas alive past turn 1-2 because the enemy firepower is now so ridiculous that removing a 4 wound T5 model with ramshackle and a 4+ save isn't all that hard. Those aforementioned Voidweavers love matchups against Deffkoptas because they make their points back relatively quickly.

 Grimskul wrote:
I'm fine with them not having us spam models if that meant that they were actually worth taking for the points. As is, it feels arbitrary and wrong that our core units actively make our list worse than if we don't take them.

I agree, someone in here was comparing Boyz to Kroot....don't do that, Kroot are 1/3rd less points than a boy, go compare it instead to a tau firewarrior who is the same price and is putting out S5 Ap-1 shots at 36' range, usually hitting on 3s, and if you get to within 18' its 2 shots, and they have even more buffs which synergize really well with them.

For instance, did you know that in CC a Tau Firewarrior unit can shoot pistols and use a cheap strat to give their rifle a Pistol 2 profile. Think about what I just said, that means a Firewarrior unit...in CC, is putting out 3 S5AP-1 shots hitting on 4s, Put another way, they average 1.5 hits, 0.75wounds and 0.75 dead Boyz per Tau. A unit of 10 is killing 7.5 boyz in the shooting phase while in CC. And that isn't the only thing they can do. They also have relatively easy access to 5+ FNP, a bunch of useful strats and support from other units.

Boyz at 9ppm would be great if they were worth the points. You don't want Hordes of boyz? Ok, give us Trukk boyz which keep their Kulture. Suddenly trukk boyz is a thing. Want shoota boyz to have a purpose? Make them BS4 and give them Assault 3 profiles. (still takes 8 boyz or 72pts to kill 18pts of Marine) but give them synergy with other units and ork buffs, like the speedwaaagh impacting them as well, or being near a mek gives them +1 shot or an extra pip of AP, something.

Our codex reads like some a**clown Marine player at GW wrote it. "Trukkboyz get +1 to hit while embarked on their trukk!, OMG that is broken good!" Oh yeah....its BS5 models with at best 3 shots at S4.....whooopedeefethingdo.

SemperMortis wrote:
Our codex reads like some a**clown Marine player at GW wrote it. "Trukkboyz get +1 to hit while embarked on their trukk!, OMG that is broken good!" Oh yeah....its BS5 models with at best 3 shots at S4.....whooopedeefethingdo.

The other half of Trukkboyz is still very good, for something that has no point cost. I'd blame the underwhelming feel of the +1 to hit on them just completely dropping the ball when they tried to "buff" shootas.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
We were using attack out of da sun, ork players just aren’t schemy gitz who tend to lawyer over the little tiny details like that. Options that are viable are also just sort of a rare occurrence, there’s things that can work but you realize something else does it but just better.

And not to mention the fact that...rarely if ever are that many Koptas alive past turn 1-2 because the enemy firepower is now so ridiculous that removing a 4 wound T5 model with ramshackle and a 4+ save isn't all that hard. Those aforementioned Voidweavers love matchups against Deffkoptas because they make their points back relatively quickly.

 Grimskul wrote:
I'm fine with them not having us spam models if that meant that they were actually worth taking for the points. As is, it feels arbitrary and wrong that our core units actively make our list worse than if we don't take them.

I agree, someone in here was comparing Boyz to Kroot....don't do that, Kroot are 1/3rd less points than a boy, go compare it instead to a tau firewarrior who is the same price and is putting out S5 Ap-1 shots at 36' range, usually hitting on 3s, and if you get to within 18' its 2 shots, and they have even more buffs which synergize really well with them.

For instance, did you know that in CC a Tau Firewarrior unit can shoot pistols and use a cheap strat to give their rifle a Pistol 2 profile. Think about what I just said, that means a Firewarrior unit...in CC, is putting out 3 S5AP-1 shots hitting on 4s, Put another way, they average 1.5 hits, 0.75wounds and 0.75 dead Boyz per Tau. A unit of 10 is killing 7.5 boyz in the shooting phase while in CC. And that isn't the only thing they can do. They also have relatively easy access to 5+ FNP, a bunch of useful strats and support from other units.

Boyz at 9ppm would be great if they were worth the points. You don't want Hordes of boyz? Ok, give us Trukk boyz which keep their Kulture. Suddenly trukk boyz is a thing. Want shoota boyz to have a purpose? Make them BS4 and give them Assault 3 profiles. (still takes 8 boyz or 72pts to kill 18pts of Marine) but give them synergy with other units and ork buffs, like the speedwaaagh impacting them as well, or being near a mek gives them +1 shot or an extra pip of AP, something.

Our codex reads like some a**clown Marine player at GW wrote it. "Trukkboyz get +1 to hit while embarked on their trukk!, OMG that is broken good!" Oh yeah....its BS5 models with at best 3 shots at S4.....whooopedeefethingdo.

I think that last sentence of yours is honestly what it probably is. Rules writers who have no experience or interest in playing Orks and assuming buffs that would be strong in another army will be strong in ours, thus overvaluing abilities that do not even begin to scratch the paint of actually making it an effective choice in the army. It's the same mentality where they overvalue the number of shots we get even though we have piss poor BS. The fact that basically half of our strats are useless or extremely situational is a reflection of this. That's why they hyped Dakka weapons up so much despite basically being worse rapid fire and we don't even have anything close to bolter discipline and Moar Dakka basically got nerfed to letting us have access to that baseline ability for TWO cp.

For me, it really comes down to:

-1 to hit on 5+ cuts hit percentage in half
+1 to a 3+ save cuts unsaved wounds in half

Ignoring 1 AP on a 2+ save means you cannot get the benefit of doubling unsaved wounds with -1 AP

The hit and armor modifiers are a design flaw, provided that they are not deliberately designed and balanced around. It simply isn't equal, in the same way that full hit re-rolls provided far more benefit to low BS in prior editions.

With either kind of cover, power armor is fairly weather proof against AP -1.

I don't know if the game has received an appreciable benefit from GW releasing codexes and balance updates more frequently. If anything, it has increased the cash flow required for players to keep up with the game. They are continually making new problems with each release, and it does not appear to be getting any more balanced. It's accelerating power creep instead, while failing to address internal balance.

Was checking out a thread on the Comp reddit which consisted of people listing they most durable or difficult to remove units in the current meta game. Man that thread got me depressed.

All these factions with multi wound 10 man units with defensive modifiers and 3+/4++/5+++ and -1 damage is really depressing.

I have a hard time believing that there are career 40k meta chasers bouncing to a new faction every couple months and fueling the engineered power creep but that might just be the case.

I give a try to Attackmout of the Sun combo on TTS in FB speedmob and 2 squads of 5 koptas. And well, it is good, but nothing broken. I was tabled by new nids anyway

Basic problems are two
- it is super cp expensive, so you can do it 2 turns and than die
- you lost your positions on the table and the rest of your army suffers all the fire. With 2x5 koptas, it works. If you take 3x6 = 900p you will be doomed.

So it is an interesting welcome combo allowing you to score on the beginning but definitely not broken or something like this.

So normally I hate wishlisting as it's an exercise in futility but I did come up with a super easy solution for orks.

All orks get +1 strength on the charge.

Goffs would still get their additional+1 (so +2 strength) so they remain the close combat expertand the other clans get a much needed buff. Our current"good" units don't improve too much (MANZ and GHaz) but every other unit jumps up.

Tldr make orks close combat again!