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2022/04/28 18:02:29
Subject: Re:Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
I think orks would fare better being different than imperial counterparts in weaponry. D3+1 power klawz and saws just giving a gak load of attacks would be cool, big choppas doing wound spill over, and all of it getting somew more ap. I wish we could also put a tank hammer on like anything.
"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos
2022/04/28 20:21:57
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
I was just tabled T2 with my speed mob by the bloody Necrons.
It was pretty suspicious game. The guy played like a warmachine. When I took the Koptas from the table he killed them so, that he screened the whole table deny me the space to drop them. Bloody hell!
Then it appears he' s in spanish national team guy and 15th from Adepticon22.
Very nice guy. Very interesting game and very hard lesson.
And he plays with the bloody necrons that are even worse than orks! And definitely not so sexy.
So stop moaning. Try harder! Be like him!
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/04/28 20:25:03
Give us the equivalent of lightning claws! Proper thunder hammer equivs. Whatever.
It's hilarious that in spite of the CC buffs this army got the best lists are *still* shooting lists. By a wide margin.
We're a BS5 army, we should not be defined strictly by shooting.
That's why I was shocked by how anemic our CC weapon stats remained in the new book. Barring a few outliers, we're basically relegated to only D2 weaponry in terms of CC with little to no interesting mechanics tied to the weapons besides extra attacks or minuses to hit.
For a race obsessed with war, it's completely silly to see how little the ruleset demonstrates the variety of weapons Orks can make when it comes to krumping.
Frankly speaking, we should have the following:
Power Klaw - Sx2 AP:3 D:3 (with all the -1D rules everywhere, we need the Power Klaw to feel like it does something again)
Big Choppa S+2 AP:2 D:2 (Giving the extra AP makes it worth taking over a basic double choppa Nob)
KillSaw: S+3 AP:4 D3, each time the bearer fights you may make an additional attack with this weapon
Power Stabba: S: User AP:3 D:1, on a unmodded 6 to wound, inflict a mortal wound in addition to the regular damage of the weapon
'Uge Choppa: S:+3 AP:3 D:3
Weapons that we should have:
Bang Bang Hammas (Nobz only): S:+3 AP:2 D:2, if a model that uses this weapon attacks on the same turn it charged, double the damage inflicted by this weapon.
Kustom Choppas: S+1 AP:3 D:1 (weird we don't have a power weapon equivalent)
Burnas melee profile (bring it back), S: User AP:2 D:1, when making attacks against a unit with the VEHICLE keyword, add +1 to this model's wound rolls
These are just a few off the top of my head, I'm sure we could have more on top of this.
2022/04/28 20:31:21
Subject: Re:Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: We do have a power weapon equivalent, the ever forgotten power stabba. Yoofs deze dayz.
I meant an actual PROPPA power weapon equivalent, not some half-assed weapon profile that GW decided to randomly give to us because they noticed it looked different on the sprue. It's an insult that you pay 5 points for something that just gives you AP-2 and that's it. That's worse than a power axe, and 100% worse than a power sword for the points. How is it considered by GW to be worth more than a big choppa?
2022/04/28 21:33:12
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Tomsug wrote: I was just tabled T2 with my speed mob by the bloody Necrons.
It was pretty suspicious game. The guy played like a warmachine. When I took the Koptas from the table he killed them so, that he screened the whole table deny me the space to drop them. Bloody hell!
Then it appears he' s in spanish national team guy and 15th from Adepticon22.
Very nice guy. Very interesting game and very hard lesson.
And he plays with the bloody necrons that are even worse than orks! And definitely not so sexy.
So stop moaning. Try harder! Be like him!
Oh yes, and he has no strong units and no strong weapons. He “just” had a clever plan how to move and score.
Tomsug wrote: I was just tabled T2 with my speed mob by the bloody Necrons.
It was pretty suspicious game. The guy played like a warmachine. When I took the Koptas from the table he killed them so, that he screened the whole table deny me the space to drop them. Bloody hell!
Then it appears he' s in spanish national team guy and 15th from Adepticon22.
Very nice guy. Very interesting game and very hard lesson.
And he plays with the bloody necrons that are even worse than orks! And definitely not so sexy.
So stop moaning. Try harder! Be like him!
Oh yes, and he has no strong units and no strong weapons. He “just” had a clever plan how to move and score.
QFT. It´s all "I need bigger gunz to win" and abysmal strategy analysis. The list that placed 5th with multiple mobz of Boyz is an excellent example of how a sound VP strategy beat the 8th Score Plan: Kill! mindset.
Do you have any info of what secondaries he picked Tomsug? We local Ork players at my club is trying to make it fit together but it´s murky to see what he takes beyond Stranglehold and Good Bitz.
2022/04/29 14:20:33
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Thought that first but Tide clashes with Stranglehold which seems like a sure bet too right? Yea should try to reach someone in his vicinity and find out
2022/04/29 18:09:10
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Scactha wrote: Thought that first but Tide clashes with Stranglehold which seems like a sure bet too right? Yea should try to reach someone in his vicinity and find out
Talking purely out of 9th edition, I highly doubt we get better boyz with different rules added as that happens rarely. Whats most likely to happen are point reductions, and i dont see GW cutting Boyz any slacks there either. so i really have no hope for boyz atm.
On a different note since i dont really use Squighog boyz that often; Goffs dont increase the jaw attacks strength do they? As they are a fixed value?
And the consensus on straight out of da sun" is that we can use it in the same turn we appeared? So arrive turn 2, shoot, do what ever, and fly out?
Fairly confident that yes the goff trait applies. It's a weapon profile of the model that makes S to 6, nothing saying otherwise. Kulture specifies that the +1S is targeted at the model when it makes an attack.
2022/04/29 21:36:31
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Talking purely out of 9th edition, I highly doubt we get better boyz with different rules added as that happens rarely. Whats most likely to happen are point reductions, and i dont see GW cutting Boyz any slacks there either. so i really have no hope for boyz atm.
On a different note since i dont really use Squighog boyz that often; Goffs dont increase the jaw attacks strength do they? As they are a fixed value?
And the consensus on straight out of da sun" is that we can use it in the same turn we appeared? So arrive turn 2, shoot, do what ever, and fly out?
Fairly confident that yes the goff trait applies. It's a weapon profile of the model that makes S to 6, nothing saying otherwise. Kulture specifies that the +1S is targeted at the model when it makes an attack.
No-they're fixed strength.
Same reason a Poxbringer won't buff the Palanquin of Epidemius or the entourage of a GUO.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2022/04/30 02:27:29
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Talking purely out of 9th edition, I highly doubt we get better boyz with different rules added as that happens rarely. Whats most likely to happen are point reductions, and i dont see GW cutting Boyz any slacks there either. so i really have no hope for boyz atm.
On a different note since i dont really use Squighog boyz that often; Goffs dont increase the jaw attacks strength do they? As they are a fixed value?
And the consensus on straight out of da sun" is that we can use it in the same turn we appeared? So arrive turn 2, shoot, do what ever, and fly out?
Fairly confident that yes the goff trait applies. It's a weapon profile of the model that makes S to 6, nothing saying otherwise. Kulture specifies that the +1S is targeted at the model when it makes an attack.
No-they're fixed strength.
Same reason a Poxbringer won't buff the Palanquin of Epidemius or the entourage of a GUO.
Ok, can you link the ruling your basing of, I am going straight by the core book rule as RAW, so allow me if I have some doubts? Is this some hidden rule deep in the core again?
Characteristics of ‘-’ can never be modified. If a model
has a Strength or Leadership characteristic of ‘-’ and that
characteristic is required to resolve a rule, then substitute the
model’s Toughness characteristic for that characteristic for
the purposes of resolving that rule (note that the substituted
characteristic still cannot be modified).
All characteristic modifiers are cumulative.
Apply modifiers in the following order: division,
multiplication, addition, then subtraction.
Round fractions up after applying all modifiers.
S, T, A and Ld can never be modified below 1.
Random Move characteristics determined for whole unit
each time it moves.
Other random characteristics determined individually
when characteristic required.
Characteristic of ‘-’ can never be modified.
Example: A Space Marine Sergeant (Strength characteristic 4)
is making an attack with a power fist (Strength characteristic
x2) while under the effects of a psychic power that increases his
Strength characteristic by 1. The two modifiers (x2 and +1) are
cumulative and applied concurrently. The attack is therefore
resolved at Strength 9 ([4x2]+1=9).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/30 02:32:48
2022/04/30 02:30:15
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Talking purely out of 9th edition, I highly doubt we get better boyz with different rules added as that happens rarely. Whats most likely to happen are point reductions, and i dont see GW cutting Boyz any slacks there either. so i really have no hope for boyz atm.
On a different note since i dont really use Squighog boyz that often; Goffs dont increase the jaw attacks strength do they? As they are a fixed value?
And the consensus on straight out of da sun" is that we can use it in the same turn we appeared? So arrive turn 2, shoot, do what ever, and fly out?
Fairly confident that yes the goff trait applies. It's a weapon profile of the model that makes S to 6, nothing saying otherwise. Kulture specifies that the +1S is targeted at the model when it makes an attack.
No-they're fixed strength.
Same reason a Poxbringer won't buff the Palanquin of Epidemius or the entourage of a GUO.
I would need to know the ruling your basing of, I am going straight by the core book rule as RAW, so allow me if I have some doubts? Is this some hidden rule deep in the core again?
Characteristics of ‘-’ can never be modified. If a model
has a Strength or Leadership characteristic of ‘-’ and that
characteristic is required to resolve a rule, then substitute the
model’s Toughness characteristic for that characteristic for
the purposes of resolving that rule (note that the substituted
characteristic still cannot be modified).
All characteristic modifiers are cumulative.
Apply modifiers in the following order: division,
multiplication, addition, then subtraction.
Round fractions up after applying all modifiers.
S, T, A and Ld can never be modified below 1.
Random Move characteristics determined for whole unit
each time it moves.
Other random characteristics determined individually
when characteristic required.
Characteristic of ‘-’ can never be modified.
Example: A Space Marine Sergeant (Strength characteristic 4)
is making an attack with a power fist (Strength characteristic
x2) while under the effects of a psychic power that increases his
Strength characteristic by 1. The two modifiers (x2 and +1) are
cumulative and applied concurrently. The attack is therefore
resolved at Strength 9 ([4x2]+1=9).
The buff affects the strength of the model.
Not the weapon.
The weapon's strength is entirely independent of the model's strength value.
Look at the wording of Khorne Daemon's Unstoppable Ferocity for the difference.
If this unit makes a charge move, is charged, or performs a Heroic Intervention, then until the end of the turn add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of all its models and add 1 to the Strength characteristic of all the melee weapons the unit is armed with.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2022/04/30 03:09:00
Subject: Re:Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Forceride wrote: You might be right, but then again, when it mentions model i would think it mentions all in it's entirety?
I would really prefer a rule or a clarification on that then since that is confusing at least to me.
There is a lot of these small interactions everywhere, like warboss and attack squig. What does model refer to then? Aren't weapons part of the model?
Anyway, it's late this side of the globe and i can't think on this at the moment.
When a model gets its Strength improved, it refers to the characteristic on the datasheet.
For most melee weapons, this will then increase the Strength you swing at. But if the weapon has a fixed Strength, it completely ignores the characteristic on the datasheet.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2022/04/30 04:12:21
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
I don't agree with that ruling in this case. For Goffs it is worded thusly:
Each time a model with this kultur makes a melee attack, if that model’s unit made a charge move or performed a Heroic Intervention this turn, add 1 to the Strength characteristic of that attack.
The Strength characteristic of the melee attack is what is being modified, not the model's Strength characteristic. As you point out, the Strength characteristic is fixed, but in this case it is still eligible to be increased by the Goff Kultur.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/04/30 04:12:38
2022/04/30 12:33:41
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
SemperMortis wrote: Our codex reads like some a**clown Marine player at GW wrote it. "Trukkboyz get +1 to hit while embarked on their trukk!, OMG that is broken good!" Oh yeah....its BS5 models with at best 3 shots at S4.....whooopedeefethingdo.
The other half of Trukkboyz is still very good, for something that has no point cost. I'd blame the underwhelming feel of the +1 to hit on them just completely dropping the ball when they tried to "buff" shootas.
The other half of Trukkboyz, IE Choppa boyz...are ok, they are not "Very good". They are effectively boyz without kulture but who can move blisteringly fast to tag units or objectives. Trukkboyz is absolutely fine how they are currently, but I don't see why in the current meta they shouldn't be allowed to keep their kulture as a specialist mob. The other half, the shooting buff...there isn't any useful application of this rule. I've seen multiple people on here, facebook and other places attempting to make a shooting buff out of this, giving the Banner nob the trukkboyz keyword and then filling the trukk with lootas or SAG big mekz etc. The problem is that you can't move the trukk, it becomes overly expensive (easy target) and at the end of the day...it does literally what Freeboota kulture already did so there isn't much point.
Most of our specialist mobz, upgrades and vehicle upgrades read like a Marine player constructed them for his faction but didn't want Orkz to have that good of things and then nerfed the prices a bit to make it worse...problem being that on noticeably crappier vehicles those upgrades become functionally useless.
Scactha wrote: QFT. It´s all "I need bigger gunz to win" and abysmal strategy analysis. The list that placed 5th with multiple mobz of Boyz is an excellent example of how a sound VP strategy beat the 8th Score Plan: Kill! mindset.
Do you have any info of what secondaries he picked Tomsug? We local Ork players at my club is trying to make it fit together but it´s murky to see what he takes beyond Stranglehold and Good Bitz.
He finished 5th out of like 20 something players in a LOCAL tournament. Want me to post you my FLGS tournament wins and show that as an example of how orkz can still be competitive?
There is a world of difference between a Local tournament and a GT, even the smallest 40 player GTs are significantly more cut throat then a 20 odd player local event. Player skill is significantly higher at the higher tables and armies are built almost across the board as meta lists.
So it isn't that people are complaining instead of "getting gud" its because we do not have the tools to compete against the top tiers of the meta right now, and after AoC...we likely don't have the tools to compete against the middle meta either.
Gotta agree with Semper here, not to say you can't win with Orks right now but it's definitely more of an uphill battle than the way some of you are describing it like saying "Just think outside the box guys! You aren't using your finkin kaps hard enough!". There are army archetypes for a reason, particularly at the higher tables, and given that we've always relied on skew lists and that our skew armies are being largely hard countered by what is popular in the meta at the moment, there's only so much you can do given that we have limited tools to work with.
2022/04/30 16:48:36
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
There is a reason AoW and goonhammer say orks are bottom b or c tier and one of the worst 9th Ed codex. But to be fair they also
recommended our food units be nerfed into the ground.
Regarding specialist mobs they don’t work as designed there is literally no benefit to taking 90% of them and the only place it’s taken competitively now is in the speed mob because it doesn’t loose the ability. I rather just see specialist mob abilities be baked into each detachment.
2022/04/30 18:29:28
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Had my first game with the "new" ork codex (I don't get to game as much these days...). Orks won, but sadly that was because my opponent used Orks!
I ran an old fashioned army, which was probably the issue. Bad moons shoota boys with rokkits & kombi rokkits in 2 battlewagons and a truk, lootas in a trukk with a SAG, and a wazbom blastajet.
Next time I'm going to run a speedwaaagh!, because bad moons seems to combine with the speedwaaagh and the vehicle/biker units very well - better heavy & dakka weapons, and better AP when firing them, and then more better AP when firing them from the speedwaagh, plus more shots. I'm trying to pick out some buggies to build, what works well? I used to play deffskulls but I feel like a change this edition, and bad moons piqued my interest for their shooting prowess.
Also, how do trukkboys work? I noticed that Trukks can transport >clan< infantry, and so would be bad moons, and trukkboys replace their >clan< with >trukkboys<, so it looks, unless I've missed something, like trukkboys can't actually ride in their trukk?
12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!
Grimskul wrote: Gotta agree with Semper here, not to say you can't win with Orks right now but it's definitely more of an uphill battle than the way some of you are describing it like saying "Just think outside the box guys! You aren't using your finkin kaps hard enough!". There are army archetypes for a reason, particularly at the higher tables, and given that we've always relied on skew lists and that our skew armies are being largely hard countered by what is popular in the meta at the moment, there's only so much you can do given that we have limited tools to work with.
I did not mean ”Git Gud”. That’s a non argument. Orks are not in s good place. Agree.
What I don’t agree with is the reflexive denial that innovative strategy still has space left. There’s this opinion that discussion is only worth it if is about stats - unit x is bad because of y. With the unspoken addendum that if it doesn’t kill stuff or survive on the frontline it’s worthless.
I find this weird at the time as people eg recognize that Drukhari won alot due to manouverability and a good Secondary. That’s innovative strategy.
Was this guys 5th place worth noticing? I don’t know. But the immediate brush off by referring to our bad stats is self defeating. That’s not the issue.
2022/04/30 21:17:03
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
I read the results from big GTs after short discussion with the guys from Prague who tooks the 1,2 and 4th place on Alpin Cup.
And I see one think we definitely needs more, much more than better AP.
We need a better secondaries. We struggle to score high. We can have a lot of wins but we hardly score 100-90.
There was a theory I myself supported - ork list is more about deny scoring than actualy scoring.
But this is a nonsence. If you cannnot score, you cannot place well in top competitive level. You cannot win the tourney without the score like 100/100/97/100/92 or something.
Was this guys 5th place worth noticing? I don’t know. But the immediate brush off by referring to our bad stats is self defeating. That’s not the issue.
He scored high. That is interesting. Was it in top competitive enviroment? Obviously not. Does it mean, this model cannot be scored high in top comp envy? Who knows?
I tell my subcontractors “I would like to ask those who say it cannot be done to do not disturbe those, who already do it. “
If someone wants to have an easy victories, he have to switch the army regularly. My guess is it ´ s 1:5 proportion between the time you have a strong rules and you can defeat your opponents because you have better codex and the rest, when your codex is gak and you have to work harder. We are still in the “work harder” area which is fine. In 12-18 months we come to “ no chance area” where we was like 3-4 years ago on the end of 8th before the new “old” codex.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/04/30 21:28:15
Tomsug wrote: I read the results from big GTs after short discussion with the guys from Prague who tooks the 1,2 and 4th place on Alpin Cup.
And I see one think we definitely needs more, much more than better AP.
We need a better secondaries. We struggle to score high. We can have a lot of wins but we hardly score 100-90.
There was a theory I myself supported - ork list is more about deny scoring than actualy scoring.
But this is a nonsence. If you cannnot score, you cannot place well in top competitive level. You cannot win the tourney without the score like 100/100/97/100/92 or something.
Of the same opinion, but still believe we have some decent scoring options. Kommandos and warbikes fit this, although considering the meta i would be ok for price discounts on these.
There are some buggies i haven seen play and their very good platforms too, they don't need to be killy just hard shift and a deterrent.
A lot of people gives a lot of focus to koptas but no one spoted the new sckorcha meta pop out mainly because freeboota was so dominant.
The fliers are still atracting fire and a 120 dakkahet is cheap if it takes heat from other stuff.
Squighog boys might be glass cannons but their still decent for their price, so yeah there is room. I just wish i could try some of the ideas.
2022/05/01 01:47:39
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Grimskul wrote: Gotta agree with Semper here, not to say you can't win with Orks right now but it's definitely more of an uphill battle than the way some of you are describing it like saying "Just think outside the box guys! You aren't using your finkin kaps hard enough!". There are army archetypes for a reason, particularly at the higher tables, and given that we've always relied on skew lists and that our skew armies are being largely hard countered by what is popular in the meta at the moment, there's only so much you can do given that we have limited tools to work with.
I did not mean ”Git Gud”. That’s a non argument. Orks are not in s good place. Agree.
What I don’t agree with is the reflexive denial that innovative strategy still has space left. There’s this opinion that discussion is only worth it if is about stats - unit x is bad because of y. With the unspoken addendum that if it doesn’t kill stuff or survive on the frontline it’s worthless.
I find this weird at the time as people eg recognize that Drukhari won alot due to manouverability and a good Secondary. That’s innovative strategy.
Was this guys 5th place worth noticing? I don’t know. But the immediate brush off by referring to our bad stats is self defeating. That’s not the issue.
Correct, but you just pointed out why Orkz aren't in a good place. We don't have any good secondaries. Our faction specific ones are rather anemic, we lack the pure fire power/CC ability to use kill secondaries and our toughest units tend to melt worryingly fast. So we are left with a scenario where we don't have the ability to score secondaries and we struggle for primaries past turn 2.
I think we can still surprise a few people with weird/skew lists but against the top meta lists...we don't stand much of a chance. My Alphork strike list was a gimmick list built on the concept of pinning my opponent into his deployment zone. It no longer works because Tau, Custards, Nidz, Eldar, Harlies put out so much damage against us that most of the list is dead turn 3.
In the tournament meta, I am going to be switching it up a bit and running a pure Deathskullz list which will focus exclusively on securing objectives and performing secondaries. I'm going to be spamming my kommandos, Stormboyz, Meganobz and believe it or not, boyz. I have little to no intention of killing enemy units unless I have to and will instead focus on mismatch's where my obsec troops can hold to score primaries at least to turn 3 before being wiped out.
To put it bluntly, we are not capable of going toe to toe with the meta lists and will have to resort to playing exclusively to Victory points and hoping we can outscore our opponents before we are tabled.
Hey everyone, I'd like some ideas and opinions on a bad moons speedwaaagh!
seems like bad moons and the speedwaaagh marry up well, focussing on the buggies which have dakka weapons for extra range and extra AP on a 6 (plus extra AP on a speedwaaagh), thinking the boomdakka snazzwagon looks good, or the Kustom Boosta Blasta for the extra strength on the gun. I'd also considered the rukatrukk squigbuggy, but that only gains the AP benefits and not the range.
I have loads of bikes (looking forward to using 9 bikes on a speedwaaagh in dakka range for 108 shots at S5 AP-1!), I need to rebuild my wartrike as it was originally made as a warboss on a bike, and I'm thinking a dakkajet and wazbomm blastajet will be a good bit of support for the army. Deffkoptas can snag objectives (though they aren't single models any more), and perhaps some nobs on smasha squigs for the same purpose, and Mek guns i nthe background.
Am I right that grots seem to benefit from clan rules now, or did I miss something? All I can see is that ">Clan< units get these benefits". I also noted that flash gitz get the clan now, so does that mean bad moon flashgitz are a viable option, or again have I missed something?
12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!
10k p fullpaint orks ready to krump! …
3, each time the bearer fights you may make an additional attack with this weapon
