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Eh, more likely they will nerf-slap him with a 100 points increase after people start running him alongside chaos knights or some other dumb constellation.

 Jidmah wrote:
Eh, more likely they will nerf-slap him with a 100 points increase after people start running him alongside chaos knights or some other dumb constellation.

True. GW tends to nerf things rather than give ridiculous points cuts unless it's the first codex release. We'll see how fast GW reacts to Abby if he does turn out to be overtuned like Trajann was when he was first released with the new Custodes codex.

I just saw Abbadons datasheet, 300pts. He smashes Ghazz any day of the week twice over.

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
I just saw Abbadons datasheet, 300pts. He smashes Ghazz any day of the week twice over.

Not really?

We'll be kind and assume Abaddon gets the charge and used his RR hits buff on himself:

1st round: 8 attacks from Abaddon with Drach'nyen, they all hit after rerolls, 5 wound, Ghaz saves 2-3, he takes 4 wounds at most even if Drach MWs triggered, 8 wounds remain. Ghaz returns fire, all 6 attacks hit after rerolls, 4 wound, Abby saves 2 and negates the damage from the first one, hits his max 3 wounds for the phase - 6 wounds left on Abby.

2nd round: Another 8 from Abaddon, another 4 wounds on Ghaz, he has 4 wounds left. Ghaz is bracketed now, but gaining an attack while his wound roll stays the same (3+ due to Abaddon's weirdly worded rule) means he's actually averaging better than the first round (potentially wounding with 5 attacks instead of 4), but all that means is he has a more comfortable margin of error against the damage null and 4++. Abaddon has 3 wounds left.

3rd round: Abby's performance doesn't drop, and he kills Ghaz this round. Since he charged 2 player turns ago, Abby's the active player and gets priority for choosing when to fight.

That's just the numbers on a straight up fight, no shooting prior (Ghaz has the advantage here, he's got an extra 1" of movement and 12" of range and can run around Abby until he's plinked enough wounds to confirm advantage in CC, though Abaddon can catch up with the right Advance rolls). If Ghaz gets the charge or interrupts, Abby dies - Ghaz is still averaging 2-3 failed saves against Abaddon. CP rerolls on invuln saves also make a difference though they favor Abaddon as Ghaz is only getting 1-2 failed saves past the damage null at best, while Ghaz is living entirely off his max 4 damage effect.

Abaddon has a just over 92% chance of maxing 4 wounds on Ghaz in a fight phase.

Ghaz has a just over 67% chance of getting two wounds (so 3 damage) on Abaddon at 5 attacks.
77% at 6 attacks.
And 72% at 7 attacks, since his wound chance goes down.

Ghaz's shooting averages 2/9ths of a point of damage to Abaddon outside half range, .30 points of damage inside. (Assuming Armor Of Contempt sticks around-double that without it.) But that's without factoring in Abaddon's Mark...
With that Mark, he's got a 2% chance of dealing damage to Abaddon with shooting at 18-36 inches, and 3.46% at 18 or less inches. However, he does have about a one in four chance of doing a failed save within 18", which won't do damage, but WILL make it easier to deal damage on the charge.

Definitely a power creep issue for sure. My issue with ghaz is he really just lacks extra rules. For the supreme ork that unifies all klans he doesn’t have many buffs or deal MWs, have a sweep profile or do much else than being a large beat stick.

Abbadon has like at least twice as much text.

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Definitely a power creep issue for sure. My issue with ghaz is he really just lacks extra rules. For the supreme ork that unifies all klans he doesn’t have many buffs or deal MWs, have a sweep profile or do much else than being a large beat stick.

Abbadon has like at least twice as much text.

Yeah, my main contention with Ghazzy is that neither his baseline abilities nor his Warlord Trait really reflect his tactical ability to be cross-Klan effective. His only buff that is cross-Klan is a pretty meaningless morale rule. It would be a lot better if he had something that reflected his "Morkiness" alongside his current "Gorkiness" of being a beatstick. Even some command phase ability where him and another unit count as having a different klan kultur rule (ala Amalgam from Custodes) would be a cool way to show how he can shift into different klan tactiks.

I’m fine with ghaz melee damage and I’m fine with his defense… ghaz just needs to move faster… really he should be allowed to move adv and charge every turn.

technically has an awesome fnp with makari around…. But that’s a 55pt boost sooo..
I would Keep ghaz around 270 and give him the ability to move adv and charge each turn and allow him to give this to a single group of nobs/meganobs and I’d be happy. Ghaz should also have the stompa morale rule instead…(6in unit may reroll a morale test)

If he stays at 300 give him a -1 damage ability and
Boost morks roar to 20/16 str6 -2 1dam
As well as the above changes

He'd be pretty much an auto include then, and I hate when named characters become auto include. I think Ghaz is already pretty amazing at 300 points, it's other stuff that needs to go up. Abbadon can easily be 350-380.

I'd like the advance and charge evey turn ability though. And he should make every ork fearless during the waaagh, like he used to do in previous editions.

All ork changes presented by someone who actually knows their gak about orks.

Both made me happy.

Some makeup and corrected over reactions. Ok, then...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
He'd be pretty much an auto include then, and I hate when named characters become auto include. I think Ghaz is already pretty amazing at 300 points, it's other stuff that needs to go up. Abbadon can easily be 350-380.

I'd like the advance and charge evey turn ability though. And he should make every ork fearless during the waaagh, like he used to do in previous editions.

I agree. Comparison between both models at the same cost is hilarious .

Guess we will see Abby in every list until Xmas.

Grots actually go to 4 points? Thats not bad at all. Should be 3 points but regardless, I didnt think they would lower a units cost to below 5.

Beardedragon wrote:
Grots actually go to 4 points? Thats not bad at all. Should be 3 points but regardless, I didnt think they would lower a units cost to below 5.

Actually, it seems "Get the good bits" can be finished at the end of your turn if done by Grot or lootas now. Not bad as it opens the possiblity for 1st turn points.

So the question is, batallations once again with 1*snaggas and 2*grot?

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Grots actually go to 4 points? Thats not bad at all. Should be 3 points but regardless, I didnt think they would lower a units cost to below 5.

Actually, it seems "Get the good bits" can be finished at the end of your turn if done by Grot or lootas now. Not bad as it opens the possiblity for 1st turn points.

So the question is, batallations once again with 1*snaggas and 2*grot?

Pics or didn' t happened!

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:


So the question is, batallations once again with 1*snaggas and 2*grot?

It depends on how many CPs you want to invest pre-game and turn 1. Most of the lists I played in 9th were built around Patrol + Outrider, with 2 relics and a WL for the leader: with the upcoming rules I'd start with 1 CP in turn 1 which is kinda bad since there's basically nothing I can do defensively if I get second or offensively if I'm first, but if I manage to stick to double patrol I'd start with 2 CPs in turn which is enough to pop a defensive stratagem at least.

Also, with a single battallion we're restricted to just one warboss, so we wouldn't need most of the CPs that we currently invest on characters pre-game. A goffs army can rely a lot on elites, doesn't need two warbosses and it should do fine with a single battallion I think.

I fear that with a single battallion several legit units, specifically the cheap-ish FA and HS units such as mek gunz, dreads, kanz, multiple squads of bikes, stormboyz and a couple of kinds of buggies, would be hard to field now even if on paper they might be better than before, like stormboyz and lootas which are about to get a price cut.

 Jidmah wrote:



All ork changes presented by someone who actually knows their gak about orks.

Both made me happy.

Good changes….
The fact he didn’t mention anything going up like the rumored wazbom is great!!! I mean it’s mostly just reverting the old chapter approved point increases with a few extra.
Beastboss on squig going down 15 (not sure I’d take both BBK and beasthide mantle again w CP issues)
Snagga boys going down 1
Killrig going down 20 (or stick with cheap battlewagon)
Kommandos going down 1
Grots going down 1
Stormboys going down 1
Boys down 1 (if you want trukk boys but just stick with snaggas and/or a single orrible gits unit)
Makari down 5 (which is useful if you are taking ghaz in goff pressure anyway)
Tankbustas are down a point (which is okay for those mortal wound spam lists but it’s not really a goff pressure unit. I’d fill the rest of the list with a boomboy wazbom and squigriders)

Sounds like goff pressure is back… It’s not tourney top table anymore with armor of contempt and general codex creep but it’s still a fun list with some variety in builds.
Speed mob is only back if they fix nob bikers and make missions easier for them to compete.
Nothing for the dreadmob or greentide players which need more then minor points reductions.

Nobs needed a more dramatic price drop to be worth taking, I was pulling for 15 points.

Madjob wrote:
Nobs needed a more dramatic price drop to be worth taking, I was pulling for 15 points.

Lots of units are just bad even with large point reductions… orks need drastic changes. This is a bandaid that makes goff pressure mid table viable.. it’s a fun list with some variety so it’s okay but we really just need an entirely new codex.

gungo wrote:

Boys down 1 (if you want trukk boys but just stick with snaggas and/or a single orrible gits unit)

I never understood why several players prefer snaggas over boyz for min footslogging squads. I mean, if you want the rigs yeah totally for the snaggas since boyz can't ride in them, but I see a lot of lists with 3x10 footslogging snaggas and I can't understand why. Snaggas are just like boyz but 2ppm more expensive and in return they just get 6++ and +1S. My point is that 6++ is almost irrelevant since the unit is going to be wiped out against any decent anti infantry tool anyway (not to mention that vs AP0 or AP-1 while in cover is completely useless), and +1S doesn't matter if the units are there only to screen, do objectives or secondaries, it's not like snaggas are significantly more punchy than boyz. Going with boyz over snaggas saves you 20 points per squad, which isn't nothing.

 Blackie wrote:

gungo wrote:

Boys down 1 (if you want trukk boys but just stick with snaggas and/or a single orrible gits unit)

I never understood why several players prefer snaggas over boyz for min footslogging squads. I mean, if you want the rigs yeah totally for the snaggas since boyz can't ride in them, but I see a lot of lists with 3x10 footslogging snaggas and I can't understand why. Snaggas are just like boyz but 2ppm more expensive and in return they just get 6++ and +1S. My point is that 6++ is almost irrelevant since the unit is going to be wiped out against any decent anti infantry tool anyway (not to mention that vs AP0 or AP-1 while in cover is completely useless), and +1S doesn't matter if the units are there only to screen, do objectives or secondaries, it's not like snaggas are significantly more punchy than boyz. Going with boyz over snaggas saves you 20 points per squad, which isn't nothing.

You aren't wrong, but by that reasoning, why bring boyz at all? If you just want screens, and nothing else, use grots. As for snaggas, you get a decent amount of bonus compared to regular boyz that help you actually hold(or get) objectives. The extra str could help clear the point, the save might(maybe) help keep you on it. Not to mention the added stratagems for just snaggas.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Abaddon has a just over 92% chance of maxing 4 wounds on Ghaz in a fight phase.

Ghaz has a just over 67% chance of getting two wounds (so 3 damage) on Abaddon at 5 attacks.
77% at 6 attacks.
And 72% at 7 attacks, since his wound chance goes down.

Ghaz's shooting averages 2/9ths of a point of damage to Abaddon outside half range, .30 points of damage inside. (Assuming Armor Of Contempt sticks around-double that without it.) But that's without factoring in Abaddon's Mark...
With that Mark, he's got a 2% chance of dealing damage to Abaddon with shooting at 18-36 inches, and 3.46% at 18 or less inches. However, he does have about a one in four chance of doing a failed save within 18", which won't do damage, but WILL make it easier to deal damage on the charge.

Not only that, abbadon being infantry and with a swipe attack makes it much harder to road block or speed bump him.
His auras are better.
The 2 layers of additional defensive buffs are very good. Nulling first damage taken with that save will most surely force the opponent to put excessive force on him. And -1to wound rule even though seems unnecessarily convoluted with the strength conditional is still very powerful.
He is under 9wounds, so no targetable. Therefore much easier to get into combat unscratched .

 Blackie wrote:

gungo wrote:

Boys down 1 (if you want trukk boys but just stick with snaggas and/or a single orrible gits unit)

I never understood why several players prefer snaggas over boyz for min footslogging squads. I mean, if you want the rigs yeah totally for the snaggas since boyz can't ride in them, but I see a lot of lists with 3x10 footslogging snaggas and I can't understand why. Snaggas are just like boyz but 2ppm more expensive and in return they just get 6++ and +1S. My point is that 6++ is almost irrelevant since the unit is going to be wiped out against any decent anti infantry tool anyway (not to mention that vs AP0 or AP-1 while in cover is completely useless), and +1S doesn't matter if the units are there only to screen, do objectives or secondaries, it's not like snaggas are significantly more punchy than boyz. Going with boyz over snaggas saves you 20 points per squad, which isn't nothing.

I mean yes and no..
The str 5 is good enough to go through the marine mirror of toughness 4 infantry
Snaggas nob comes with a built in BC equivilant of power snappa.
The popular beastboss on squig buffs them with +1 to hit
And the beastsnagga buff vs vehicle and monster is decent in the current meta…
But I agree footslogging doesn’t work at all this edition… and snaggas don’t help… take a Killrig at 190 it’s decent again and since you need troops take snagga units to fill them because boys still suck.
Heck take a unit of orrible gitz sounds like it will be decent with the new secondary too

Yeah bad take on Boys over Snaggas, even slogging.

Having a 6++ means at least you have a chance to spike saves, and the KFF or MA Mek w/ KFF is so expensive it's not worth the saved models.

Snaggas have a free klaw (10 points), str 5 is a key breakpoint (and it's 6 in goffs on the charge), and they actually have strats they can use, unlike boys.

Boys are still only fine as Truck boys. If snaggas could be taken as truck boys, boys would be in the bin.

Edit: Also keep in mind, giving up a kill secondary in Nephilim is *reallllllllly* bad. Secondaries are harder to score now, and Bring it Down, No Prisoners (etc) is basically handing your opponent a free 15, while you might expect other secondaries to be 8-10 if well played.

So you'd rather take Snaggas over Boys simply to avoid giving up more Kill Points.

With the quantity of ap1/ap2 weapons all around, Boys have literally no save at all. In my games, it was just roll to hit> roll to wound> and me removing Boys from the table...

At least Snaggas have a chance of a save roll, and if you succeed the 6++ save just once, then you already saved up the cost difference.
+1S is a significant difference if you are not playing Goff (I usually play BW or DS).
So unless I am looking for trukk boys, I prefer going with snaggas.

I mean str6 goff snaggas on charge are nice… and str8 goff snagga nob on charge is great.

My main concern with the new secondaries and orks is we still hemorrhage assassinate points.. i haven’t BattleScribe it yet because we are just playing w leaks but a goff pressure list with beastboss on squig, Killrig (1 or 2), ghaz, makari… are 5 characters.. (even zagstrukk is playable in that list too)…
If you go vehicle heavy w Killrigs, Mek guns, wazboms, battlewagons, buggies and deffkoptas we hemorrhage bring it down. Best play is to go goff pressure and limit characters to 4.. and trying to deny your opponents easy mission points.

gungo wrote:
I mean str6 goff snaggas on charge are nice… and str8 goff snagga nob on charge is great.

My main concern with the new secondaries and orks is we still hemorrhage assassinate points.. i haven’t BattleScribe it yet because we are just playing w leaks but a goff pressure list with beastboss on squig, Killrig (1 or 2), ghaz, makari… are 5 characters.. (even zagstrukk is playable in that list too)…
If you go vehicle heavy w Killrigs, Mek guns, wazboms, battlewagons, buggies and deffkoptas we hemorrhage bring it down. Best play is to go goff pressure and limit characters to 4.. and trying to deny your opponents easy mission points.

No Kill Rigs. Capacity is too limited (both on quantity and unit choice), and it just gives your opponent assassinate for free. You cannot give up a kill secondary in competitive play IMO unless you are certain you can counter them picking it (I don't think realistically Orks can).

You take 3 characters and then try to limit your BiD footprint to 8-10 if you can.

The issue with abby vs ghaz isnt them fighting each other, that literally comes down to who swings first and/or who whiffs a round.
They shouldnt be hitting each other, thats a massive waste of time for both sides.

The issue is Abby makes any core or character (which happens to be himself) reroll ALL hits/wounds in melee, also has static reroll 1s to hit (note NOT MELEE ONLY), multiple defensive boosts, character protected (as of right now anyway i havnt seen a rule saying he doesnt get Look out Sir benefits), does slightly more damage to a big target w/o an invul and murders numbers better.

Ghaz has nothing on his side Abby doesnt, and Abby has like 5 things. For the same price.
Powercreep isnt a thing *cough*

15pts off the squigbuggy is nice, brings it back to usable again. Bringing the taco trukk back! (i have a 3D printed tacotrukk squigbuggy lol)

The 15 points off of the Squigbuggy definitely makes it a "sometimes" pick over never being used. Also makes the 25 points for nitro squigs easier to swallow.

My list drops by 50 points all in all, so I can either squeeze in a third Mek Gun with some change, or a unit of grots to replace my small Kommando mob as my backfield campers, with a bit more change.

With the change to Get Da Good Bitz, it's probably going to be the latter and either a PK to my Trukkboys or a Souped Up Speshul for my Snazzwagon.

I'm not convinced.

S5, built in big choppa, dedicated stratagems (keep in mind CPs are now precious) and 6++ sounds great on paper but... do you actually achieve anything with those footslogging snaggas? Let alone against something tough as marines are? Do you really manage to throw those snaggas in combat and do something? In my experience 10 man squads of boyz do almost nothing and the possible buff that snaggas have would have not made any significant difference typically, in fact I never regretted lacking those snagga buffs.

At the end of the day snaggas still get decimated by crappy anti infantry firepower and that 6++ means that the opponent just needs a couple of additional hits to wipe the squad. And 10 boyz in cover are exactly as tough as 10 snaggas to remove.

Now compared to gretchins both boyz and snaggas are significantly resilient and only one unit of gretchins per detachment can have obj sec, so while I can understand favoring boyz over gretchins (I do prefer gretchins though) I'm not convinced in favoring snaggas over boyz. I'm always assuming no kill/hunta rigs involved of course.

For something like 3x10 footslogging dudes, chosing boyz over snaggas means 60 points that can be spent elsewhere without really losing anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Afrodactyl wrote:
The 15 points off of the Squigbuggy definitely makes it a "sometimes" pick over never being used. Also makes the 25 points for nitro squigs easier to swallow.

With the change to Get Da Good Bitz, and the overall dropping of points, I might actually squeeze a unit of grots into my list.

Against armies that don't benefit from AoC it's still a solid unit but, with the upcoming changes to CPs, detachment slots become precious and there are several FA units that are hands down more useful, so I still see squigbuggies struggling to find some room in players' lists.

Quick question: Against Tyranids - Deathskull or Beastsnaggas? My opponent has approx. 5 zoantrophes (these psyker brains) on the field.
So is it better to ward off against that with the MW 5+ save or beast snagga for "against Monsters"?