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SemperMortis wrote:

 Scactha wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:
Nephilin rules pack and it' s impact on WAAAAAGHH!!!
/.../
5. Conclusion 2
Seeing the reddit comments, most of the people feel like sky is falling for their armies. Everybody are hit. Hard to predict the results of this wild party…

This actually tells me that GW made a good job

Thanks for the sum up. My thoughts go Biggest and Best with a Beastasaurboss, Psychic Interrogation and Banners. Might even go so crazy as to bring a Painboy to keep WL up. This gives alot of tactical leeway to just control 2 objects on the midline and grind down whatever comes to kick us off.

gungo wrote:
I think orks will be better overall in relation to most armies but still a very B tier army with a single competitive type that relies on mostly goff pressure. Put it this way every army was nerfed in some way (except maybe sisters which might be a problem) but orks goff pressure got stronger… unless of other armies has a ton of points drops.

I have to disagree with the conclusions here. Yeah I think everyone is going "the sky is falling" right now but realistically very few factions were running 3 detachments. And if you look at it in the light of what some factions CAN do its not much better. Most Power Armored factions can just take a single detachment and that be it. Few if any of those factions NEED more then 3 slots per battlefield role, and if they really want to go nuts they can likewise get the brigade, for them though its a lot more expensive since MSU Tacs are 90pts for each.

Compared to that though, Orkz were really leaning heavily on Warboss key word units to do some melee beat sticking for us and the AoR was using a 3CP detachment to fill in the required slots. In my opinion the AoR army is basically DoA since they lose out on all but 1CP just to take a detachment and a warlord with trait/relic.

The Goff pressure build is likewise in a bit of trouble since it relied on those character beatsticks and some sneaky tricks to get into assault turn 1. So if you go that route you can still pull it off with 2 warbosses with 2 warlord traits/relics but you will start the game with 0 CP and will not have the ability to use ramming speed or anything else for that matter.

It will be interesting to see how the meta gets shaken up by this change but realistically I don't see many factions doing worse then us with these changes do to the necessity of traits/relics and detachments. The good (kind of) news is that we can't really sink too much further down the power scale, I think last week we were pushing along at a 40% win rate or thereabouts and the best finishes we had was Marshall Petersen finishing 5th at Wargames for warriors and another gentleman named Damien Owen finishing 7th.

With all of that said, I am more and more convinced the Mortal wound spam list is going to be our top list for a bit.

We will see… I think goff pressure is mid table competitive.. almost no reliable ork competitive list was using triple detachments.. and a lot of the current goff pressure was already winning with ghaz plus warboss/beastboss… It’s not really the point reductions that helped orks an extra 50-75 points is an extra mekgun at most, but it’s the secondary changes that made a decent goff list better… that grot secondary is extremely easy to max… I am not even worried about the CP changes on a goff pressure list.. stick to 1 detachment and you are fine… most other armies were crushed by the secondary changes and the chapter approved rumors are going to kick a lot of the top outliers down another peg too. (The only issue so far I see is sisters of battle look OP. They were already very good and got significant boosts)

I agree the secondaries are where we've made some serious gains. 40+ is reasonably easily achievable.

The fact our strats weren't great means the lack of CP isn't the end of the world.

Any points drops are just gravy.

Green tide secondary really looks like they want orks to play as a horde. Goonhammer pointed to engage as a better alternative but I think they're missing that if you're only in 2 quarters you still get points. Also a unit doesn't have to be 6" away from another quarter, just the models you wish to count.

I agree, it' s about the secondaries. This whole edition is about secondaries!

And I agree that it seems GW want us to play a lot of multiple small infantry units to max. I expect the top ork lists from this direction.

Ot would be really nice if GW fix all the FW models keyword.

Kannonwagon with the WAGON for speedmob.
Big Trakk be the Dedicated transport!
Nob bikers….
Zhagstrak back from legend to have at ůeast one named character on bike and for Evil Sunz……

Well. ill attempt to stick to a speed mob for a while and see how that plans out. Doing secondaries there is damn difficult though, and i would probably have to go the biggest and the best, + good bits.

But I really really really hope they allow all units to do good bits for speed mobs.

There's supposed to be a new dataslate that comes out with the new points, correct? Do you think there's any possibility that GW will revert some of the Ork changes or introduce something that makes things better in our book?

 Grimskul wrote:
There's supposed to be a new dataslate that comes out with the new points, correct? Do you think there's any possibility that GW will revert some of the Ork changes or introduce something that makes things better in our book?

Ork points have been leaked and confirmed, I posted a video a couple of pages back.

Essentially all infantry except flash gits (including gretchin) gets -1 point and makari, kill rig, squig buggy and beastboss on squigosaur get their nerfs from last time undone/reduced.

With those somewhat decent secondaries, goff might be back on the menu.

CaptainO wrote:


Green tide secondary really looks like they want orks to play as a horde. Goonhammer pointed to engage as a better alternative but I think they're missing that if you're only in 2 quarters you still get points. Also a unit doesn't have to be 6" away from another quarter, just the models you wish to count.

I think Engage is easier to achieve, in general. Probably not with a whole footslogging army though. Green tide requires many more models to do the secondary and footslogging orks are very easy to kill.

I´ll revise my initial scoring plan as I forgot the fine writ of Bitz. I´d rather go Psychic, Good Bitz and Biggest Best. Reasoning:

Psychic - we got cheap psykers and it actually got better since beating opponent Ld = 4 Vp meaning its more forgiving. It´s funny in a way that it disincentives the opponent to approach.

Biggest and Da best - 2 VP turn for just standing on an objective with the WL. +2 for attacking anything coming within reach with the the simpIest scratching a wound off a Hero/Monster/Vehicle (very likely). I envision the WL patrolling between 2 no mans land objectives, carefully screened.

Bitz - use Grotz and/or Lootas (as they finish in the same turn) with a tiny footprint on 1-2 midfield objectives, also carefully screened, netting 3-5 vp/turn.

This scoring strategy allows the triangle play that TTT often talk about, meaning you operate in a zone of your home objective and 2 midfield objectives. The advantage is the mutual support you get from having the army more coherent. Especially good with our melee oriented faction.

Unless the opponent has a better scoring plan (hard to say since we don´t know the full Nephilim rules yet) we force them to interact with us. Supposing opponents go for the usual Engage and/or Retrieve they´re going to feed us units piecemeal, weaken as a result and still score worse. The major issue still is Grind them Down as we are more brittle than most opponents.

In summary: screen, absorb their attack, counter attack and keep ticking those 8-12 vp / turn.

Just to clarify - if I have a unit of 30 'orrible gitz and run them into my enemy's army their units get -1 to hit as well, right?

 Jidmah wrote:
Just to clarify - if I have a unit of 30 'orrible gitz and run them into my enemy's army their units get -1 to hit as well, right?

For ranged attack, yes.

This seems to be the exact wording of our new secondaries.

- most of them "on the end of the battle round" !!!

Stomp em Good (progressive): At the end of the battle round:
• Score 3 victory points if the number of enemy units destroyed by melee attacks made by ORKS units from your army this battle round is more than the number of non-GRETCHIN units from your army destroyed by melee attacks this battle round.
• Score 1 additional victory point if the number ofenemy units destroyed by melee attacks made by ORKS units from your army this battle round is at least 2 and is at least double the number of non-GRETCHIN units from your army destroyed by melee attacks this battle round.

Da Biggest and Da Best (progressive): At the end of the battle round, score 2 victory points for each of the following achieved by your ORKS WARLORD (to a maximum of 5 victory points per battle round):
An enemy CHARACTER, MONSTER Or VEHICLE unit lost any wounds as the result of a melee attack made by your WARLORD this battle round.
• 5 or more models were destroyed as the result of attacks made by your WARLORD this battle round.
• An enemy unit was destroyed as the result of an attack made by your WARLORD this battle round.
• Your WARLORD is within range of an objective marker you control that is not within your deployment zone.

Green Tide (progressive): At the end of your turn, score 1 victory point for each table quarter that contains 10 or more ORK models from your army (excluding models that are within 6" of any other table quarter).

Get Da Good Bitz (progressive): If you select this secondary objective, ORKS CORE units from your army can attempt the following action: Get da Good Bitz (Action): At the end of your Movement phase, one or more ORKS CORE units from your army can start to perform this action. Each unit from your army that starts to perform this action must be within range of a different objective marker you control that is not in either player's deployment zone. If a LOOTS Or GRETCHIN unit is performing this action, it is completed at the end of your turn; otherwise, it is completed at the start of your next Command phase or at the end of the battle (whichever comes first). In any case, the action is only completed if the unit performing it is still within range of the same objective marker.
Score 3 victory points each time a unit from your army completes this action (to a maximum of 5 victory points per battle round).


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Da Biggest and Da best is tricky. If go first, you park him somewhere T1 and if the opponent kills him, you lost the game. This is very much a death sentence for the warlord....


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Bitz are much better now. There is in fact one more scoring on the end of the battle = +3 VP.


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However, there is a typical Tau issue. If you take Bitz than Tau player kills all your bikers T1 to stop you scoring and cripple the speedmob….

I mean you don’t need to go crazy on grots and lootas for get the good bits. You just need a unit to score it the first turn and you can have any other unit score for the second turn at the same time. That will put you ahead.. from there it’s just trying to have any unit score for the 3-4 rounds of your grot survives even easier….

You protect those scoring units with kommandos units which are a great screening and blocking unit especially with the current missions. Your opponent needs to deal with those kommandos in order to score thier own midfield objectives.

Even with ghaz and makari I’m not sold with biggest and the best… it’s significantly easier to score but I will need to play with them and see if I am able to reliably get at least 12 Points each time. I don’t necessarily like these type of missions as your opponent can snipe your warlord and stop you from scoring however ghaz/makari is hard to take down for most armies.. he essentially becomes a focus for your opponent which should help you score more Points w him as long as you can keep him alive.

If you go double Killrig w snaggas you can try the psychic interrogation mission… throw in a backup weirdboy and you are doing pretty good BUT again once your psykers are gone it’s a problem, but at least this is already a viable build.

If you go heavy infantry spam greentide is easy to get a lot of points in as well. But like most of our missions it’s about surviving.

I mean we have multiple options but we have a fine line to walk it through… plus we might have to be careful w assassinate or bring it down….This is why goff pressure got better.

We also still have a chance to get slightly buffed with the quarterly update changes which we haven’t heard about… we have only heard about points and chapter approved mission leaks.

Da biggest and da best is good but remember, the second he dies its GG for that secondary. Plopping him on an objective means 10VP if he lives to the end of the game though. LOL for a weird list you could make a SAG Big Mek your warboss and just plop him in the backfield on an objective to do this and then have him snipe weak units with his SAG to try and get the 4VP a turn

I do have to say though, the 5 or more dead models a battle round is a bit...high. I mean, a Warboss only has 5 attacks base, I feel like they set this bar way to high because of Beastboss's on Squigosaurs who have the bonus from their squig jaws.

Green Tide is in my opinion bad, its just Engage on all Fronts with extra steps and a SLIGHT benefit of only needing 2 quarters to get 2 points instead of 3. A smart opponent can just plink a few wounds off multiple units just to deny you this with relative ease unless you are taking 20+ mobz which...i still dont see as feasible unless GW is also going to give us some new Morale rules for Orkz.

Get Da Good Bitz just got better. Scoring 3-5VP a turn from a couple units of Grots sitting mid field causing a distraction is awesome, what is even better is you get the points your turn and your opponent then HAS to kill them outright otherwise its another 3VP for you.

As far as Goff Pressure list, definitely got cheaper, but the loss of Melee beatstick characters is concerning. What is worse (in my opinion) is without that 2nd detachment you only get 1 unit of trukkboyz, be nice if GW gave them back their damn kulture now, especially in light of these new changes AND AoC.

Once we get all the new rules/points im going to toy with building a Goff beta strike list with squigs....lots of squigs. Benefit of that is 18 Squigriders = 6 Bomb squigs AND 3 slotless Nobz on Smasha Squigz. Failing that i'll try and build another with my favorite koptas

Greentide is models.. not units…you can go msu and be much safer with it.. it’s better for engage for any list with large model count army like those 3 units of 10x kommandos.. 2 units of 10x snaggas, 2 units of 20 grots, maybe 2 units of 5x meganobs, heck even trukk boys are good for greentide lists. Heck it even includes your wazboms again unlike engage.

Da biggest and best is really only decent for ghaz/makari and maybe a buffed up mantle/Ard as nails squigboss or maybe mozrog. The warlord needs to survive to score. Bikerboss is a killing machine but too easy to kill. I mean there might be a play on krushin armor warboss w a bunch of meganobs in wagon.
The best thing with goff pressure is that it has options to build and use different types of lists. Unlike the speedmob army of renown which has 1 real build and didn’t gain much from this chapter approved.

gungo wrote:
Greentide is models.. not units…you can go msu and be much safer with it.. it’s better for engage for any list with large model count army like those 3 units of 10x kommandos.. 2 units of 10x snaggas, 2 units of 20 grots, maybe 2 units of 5x meganobs, heck even trukk boys are good for greentide lists. Heck it even includes your wazboms again unlike engage.

Da biggest and best is really only decent for ghaz/makari and maybe a buffed up mantle/Ard as nails squigboss or maybe mozrog. The warlord needs to survive to score. Bikerboss is a killing machine but too easy to kill. I mean there might be a play on krushin armor warboss w a bunch of meganobs in wagon.
The best thing with goff pressure is that it has options to build and use different types of lists. Unlike the speedmob army of renown which has 1 real build and didn’t gain much from this chapter approved.

Green tide is in fact models you are correct, do you have multiple units totaling 15-20 to send into table quarters? Most lists atm don't. Think about this, to get safety you need at least 20 models in each quarter. that is 60 total, you aren't going to be that lucky for that long. Engage is better

It’s at the end of YOUR turn you don’t need to move 15-20 models there only 10+.

You can move 2 units of 5 models there it doesn’t matter.. and most of my lists (outside the army of renown) have around 80+ models… I can get 2 groups of 10 models 6in onto the other table quarter. While easily keeping 20 models on my half the board. I mean engage is comparable. Greentide is just easier to score some points whereas engage is a little easier to score max points.

SemperMortis wrote:

gungo wrote:
Greentide is models.. not units…you can go msu and be much safer with it.. it’s better for engage for any list with large model count army like those 3 units of 10x kommandos.. 2 units of 10x snaggas, 2 units of 20 grots, maybe 2 units of 5x meganobs, heck even trukk boys are good for greentide lists. Heck it even includes your wazboms again unlike engage.

Da biggest and best is really only decent for ghaz/makari and maybe a buffed up mantle/Ard as nails squigboss or maybe mozrog. The warlord needs to survive to score. Bikerboss is a killing machine but too easy to kill. I mean there might be a play on krushin armor warboss w a bunch of meganobs in wagon.
The best thing with goff pressure is that it has options to build and use different types of lists. Unlike the speedmob army of renown which has 1 real build and didn’t gain much from this chapter approved.

Green tide is in fact models you are correct, do you have multiple units totaling 15-20 to send into table quarters? Most lists atm don't. Think about this, to get safety you need at least 20 models in each quarter. that is 60 total, you aren't going to be that lucky for that long. Engage is better

Exactly, you need a list with 150-180 infantry models to do green tide properly. And even then the results are highly terrain and opponent's dependant, as footsloggin orks could die in droves. Engage is much easier to achieve.

Given finkin' cap now costs 1 CP for sure, is it really worth taking?

On net, 1.5 CP on average. Doesn't seem as straight value as say.. Extra Kunnin' if you go that route, as you know you'll get the refund if you want those strats.

tulun wrote:
Given finkin' cap now costs 1 CP for sure, is it really worth taking?

On net, 1.5 CP on average. Doesn't seem as straight value as say.. Extra Kunnin' if you go that route, as you know you'll get the refund if you want those strats.

Why not both? I run both in my speed mob.

Beardedragon wrote:

tulun wrote:
Given finkin' cap now costs 1 CP for sure, is it really worth taking?

On net, 1.5 CP on average. Doesn't seem as straight value as say.. Extra Kunnin' if you go that route, as you know you'll get the refund if you want those strats.

Why not both? I run both in my speed mob.

The expected CP return is 1.5 CP.

With a decent chance of going to just .5 CP. Not sure if it's worth it anymore. If it was a 2 or 3+ cp regen, maybe. 4+ is so swingy.

You just need to roll a single 4+ to make it a +-0 CP thing though, and that is quite likely to happen. If you get more, great, if not, you lose nothing.

 Blackie wrote:

CaptainO wrote:


Green tide secondary really looks like they want orks to play as a horde. Goonhammer pointed to engage as a better alternative but I think they're missing that if you're only in 2 quarters you still get points. Also a unit doesn't have to be 6" away from another quarter, just the models you wish to count.

I think Engage is easier to achieve, in general. Probably not with a whole footslogging army though. Green tide requires many more models to do the secondary and footslogging orks are very easy to kill.

No doubt engage is easier with a speed mob and a traditional ork list but maybe the new secondaries is pushing us to take more hordes. Realistically a horde of orks/grots is pretty terrible in combat and shooting but what does it matter if it gives a cool 40+ secondary points.

The horde lists I'm looking at are there to just die slowly(kff +painboy+transports+runtherder. 150+ models (including 9 characters, 90 grots and 3 battlewagons) 9th edition morale means there will always be some guys from a unit left after a morale check. I could be tabled by t5 but if I have 40 secondaries already and have remained competitive on primaries the game could be already won.

I listened to a podcast about a guard player with 9ish characters and he was saying it can be used as a trap. Vehicles to hide characters late game could be a good way to keep your opponents scoring low (especially as there is no way they're not getting prisoners)


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The biggest and the best is (as all well balanced secondaries should be) situational. If your opponent can snipe a character a turn and there is no objective in no mans land where you can hide a character, maybe take a psychic secondary instead. However there are lots of armies that don't have that abilty and an ard as nails, super cybork boss will easily last 5 rounds if he is within 3" of a 3 unit model.


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I don't know if engage is easier than green tides (especially with the change to needing to be 6" away from another table quarter). To get 15 cp you need to throw 2 units very close to your opponent t1 and you'll have to have one unit in all 4 quarters each 5 times. You could max green tides by just putting 3 units in 3 quarters 5 times while it also allows you to play reactively (put 4 in each quarter for 2 turns and then just finish with 10 models in one quarter...)

Its definitely list specific but I think the new secondaries should encourage us to try new list types.

CaptainO wrote:

No doubt engage is easier with a speed mob and a traditional ork list but maybe the new secondaries is pushing us to take more hordes. Realistically a horde of orks/grots is pretty terrible in combat and shooting but what does it matter if it gives a cool 40+ secondary points.

The horde lists I'm looking at are there to just die slowly(kff +painboy+transports+runtherder. 150+ models (including 9 characters, 90 grots and 3 battlewagons) 9th edition morale means there will always be some guys from a unit left after a morale check. I could be tabled by t5 but if I have 40 secondaries already and have remained competitive on primaries the game could be already won.

The problem is you won't be getting 40+ secondary points and green tide is too difficult to do effectively enough to max out reliably. Look at your list, 150 models You can realistically put 50 into 3 quarters each, do you have 3 KFFs and 3 Painboyz to babysit each mini blob? likely not. But even if you did, you've just given 50 T3/T5 (Grots/boyz) models a 6++ and a 6+++. ON average that reduces your casualties by about 30% (a lot less vs multi-dmg weapons) Every GT i've been to in 9th has me down to a handful of models by turn 4 let alone turn 5, you just aren't going to be able to pull this one off with enough models for long enough to max it out, engage is just better, the only difference I can see is that with Green tide, if you are extremely lucky and your opponent didn't bring a super killy list you can pull off 8pts in 2 turns before slamming into the lack of models turn 3 and making maybe 1-2 more points. But that relies a lot on whether or not your opponent has the right tools and whether or not you can deal enough dmg quickly enough to slow the bleed of models....which atm orkz don't really have as far as capability wise.

 Jidmah wrote:
You just need to roll a single 4+ to make it a +-0 CP thing though, and that is quite likely to happen. If you get more, great, if not, you lose nothing.

On the other hand, if you plan to play with secondary Psychic Interrogation, then the Cap is maybe not necessary.
(as we can gain max 1 CP per round)

CaptainO wrote:

I don't know if engage is easier than green tides (especially with the change to needing to be 6" away from another table quarter). To get 15 cp you need to throw 2 units very close to your opponent t1 and you'll have to have one unit in all 4 quarters each 5 times. You could max green tides by just putting 3 units in 3 quarters 5 times while it also allows you to play reactively (put 4 in each quarter for 2 turns and then just finish with 10 models in one quarter...)

Its definitely list specific but I think the new secondaries should encourage us to try new list types.

With full green tides? Probably not. But I'm not looking in fielding all infantry lists, on a regular basis at least, just the same mix between MSU and vehicles that I've brought in the entire edition. I'm not sure that a full footsloggin army is going to be good, orks die really fast and there are chances that you don't have much at top of 3 to score. We're too squishy to play the game of board control and die slowly, we have to go on the offensive with a significant portion of the army to reduce the losses.

Are Nobz playable at 17 PPM?

I keep thinking, they have been hit just as hard, if not more so by AoC, dropping their hitting damage with dual choppa considerably and their hitting power with big choppas tremendously.

I am seriously annoyed the more I think about the fact that they were genuine "elite" units in 4th, 25ppm with WS5, 5++/4+++, a unique 2 wounds, and all the power weapons you like that fully ignored armor saves.

I still like to think that they might have a place in MSUs in transports, but they are so alike to Primaris Marines while being strictly worse defensively and probably worse offensively, that they don't seem to be worth the cost despite being on paper more efficient defensively than boyz.

They've also dropped relative to boyz in efficiency, as 18-9 was a 2-1 ratio, whereas 17-8 is a greater than 2-1 ratio. I am baffled as to why they were not dropped to 16.

The issue with nobz is the same as it has always been. Without weapons they don't do anything, if you buy weapons for them, they get too expensive.

To be interesting nobz need to be troops, and in an age of multiple multiwounds troops it wouldn't be absurd. Last time nobz were good was the codex in which they did count as troops, with a warboss in the list.

17ppm and 5-10 points weapons (power klaw used to be 25 points and 'eavy armour needed to be paid) is already pretty cheap, and yet the unit's useless. They can't really be any cheaper.

We have a massive codex with only 3 troops, 2 of them almost identical. And even if a battallion has 6 elite slots, with meganobz, kommandos and tankbustas those slots can be filled up pretty quickly. I know I wouldn't find a spared slot for nobz, especially with the new rules that make FA and HS much more limited.

Nobs really should be troops, it would also give them a reason to exist over meganobz.
Meganobs have always been unusually cheap compared to their unarmored brothers. Running a bunch of nobs with klaws was always a bad idea in the past as MANz got a 2+ armor and were either slightly more expensive or actually cheaper depending on the era were talking about.

It'd be no different than Immortals being troops. Necrons would probably hardcore abandon them if they were elites even if they were 2pts cheaper than they currently are lol.

 Jidmah wrote:
The issue with nobz is the same as it has always been. Without weapons they don't do anything, if you buy weapons for them, they get too expensive.

Pretty much. Meganobz have always been the less flexible but more cost efficient option, while Nobz had the utility of mix-matching multiple upgrades and weapons while also fitting more in a transport like a trukk (e.g., they could take a painboy, all take cybork bodies for the 5+ invuln, and a WAAAGH! banner as well as be on warbikes). However, over the course of the editions the options have been taken out (Cybork body becoming a pointless 6+ FNP instead, WAAAGH! banner became its own unit, Painboy became its own unit, Nobz on Warbikes were a separate datasheet) with nothing to really compensate for it besides a rarely used morale rule. Now we don't even have that, we just have a strat that nobody uses that they're able to access. Nobz have effectively been dismantled rules-wise as an elites choice and either need a serious rewrite (alongside other Nob equivalents like meganobz and flash gitz) or should be made into troops as mentioned before, because as it is, they don't hit hard enough nor can they take the punches, so they don't really do anything besides just be mediocre.

Even fluffwise it would make sense since the whole point of the Octarius War was how it was making normal boyz grow to almost Nob level due to all the constant diet of war that was fed to them from the Tyranids. So it would be a good way to reflect how Orks have been getting bigger from some of the major conflicts in the 41st millenium.