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deano2099 wrote:
But at no point does the update use the words "winding up", "bankruptcy" or "liquidation" is my point.

Folds, out of business, selling remaining inventory - what exactly would satisfy you here?

deano2099 wrote:
And they're not in that situation it would appear - like you say, they could continue to sell inventory to pay debts, but that would have to be done through a proper procedure to prioritise who gets the debts. You couldn't just earmark that for the warehouse costs. At least not in the UK/Europe.

What exactly qualifies as proper procedure for you?

When I've shut down businesses, the relationship between creditors and myself was a letter and sometimes a phone call.

 techsoldaten wrote:


What exactly qualifies as proper procedure for you?

Proper procedure would be laid out in the documents governing different types of bankrupty and administration, I think they're called Chapter (x) in the US.

 techsoldaten wrote:

deano2099 wrote:
But at no point does the update use the words "winding up", "bankruptcy" or "liquidation" is my point.

Folds, out of business, selling remaining inventory - what exactly would satisfy you here?

As someone who has money in their Kickstarter, I'm a creditor, so yeah it matters to me to at least have some formal process to apply to try and get a few pennies back.

They've not filed for Chapter X. I've checked. Multiple times.

But no, I didn't know it was possible in the US to close up your business and just writing/calling creditors and telling them you're getting nothing. In the UK if you're unable to pay all your debts you have to follow a specific process that gives all creditors the chance to apply

deano2099 wrote:


As someone who has money in their Kickstarter, I'm a creditor

You're an unsecured creditor at best, same as any Backer.

There's something vaguely fishy about this. SWM seems to be arguing that Troll Trader's actions, either in selling counterfeit bases or in their legal claim to those bases, is preventing the sale of the base IP, which is the money that would be used to further the kickstarter. For several reasons, I have doubts. There are ways to put liens on assets to prevent the owner from simply selling them, but those require a court to grant them, and the person putting the Lien has to have a valid claim *(usually money owed related to the item). SWM seems to be arguing that Troll Trader stole their bases like their an NFT, and now SWM can't sell the base IP... which I find hard to believe. Now, obviously, there could be info we don't have, but as a business that was going out of business anyway, this seems like a bit of a cover story.

Frankly, even if SWM had clear title to it's bases, I'm not certain how much they would be worth. Maybe the designs are popular enough to have a lot of value, but it just seems that in a dwindling market it's easier to just get fresh sculpts rather than buy a legacy product .

There's probably a bit more to this than is being shared, and Maybe Troll trader really is just knocking off the SWM bases and driving down their value. It just doesn't seem like there's enough value to make it worth it.

deano2099 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

deano2099 wrote:
But at no point does the update use the words "winding up", "bankruptcy" or "liquidation" is my point.

Folds, out of business, selling remaining inventory - what exactly would satisfy you here?

As someone who has money in their Kickstarter, I'm a creditor, so yeah it matters to me to at least have some formal process to apply to try and get a few pennies back.

They've not filed for Chapter X. I've checked. Multiple times.

But no, I didn't know it was possible in the US to close up your business and just writing/calling creditors and telling them you're getting nothing. In the UK if you're unable to pay all your debts you have to follow a specific process that gives all creditors the chance to apply

Just to be clear, it isn't called "Chapter X". X is a placeholder for several types of bankruptcy filings, most commonly "Chapter 7" (liquidation) and "Chapter 11" (reorganization). That said, not sure if they've filed for either of those.

And yup, it's entirely possible for a business to close and some creditors (secured and unsecured) will get nada, and unsecured creditors are at the end of the list as far as any distribution of any assets. Regular customers are all pretty much unsecured creditors.

 Platuan4th wrote:

deano2099 wrote:


As someone who has money in their Kickstarter, I'm a creditor

You're an unsecured creditor at best, same as any Backer.

Yup, I'm not expecting to get anything, but while the company is still trading I can't even try.

I'd have every sympathy for them if the company just ran out of money, said "sorry guys, we done screwed up" and filed for bankruptcy using whatever process is required where it is based. I'm really uneasy that we were basically told that a year ago, and then a year later said company is still trading and no sort of winding up procedure has been initiated.

It makes me question if the bases were ever even real, or if the whole campaign was just a way to get a cash injection and then try and reposition the company in a way that it could write-off or never acknowledge the liability of the bases project (because, it being KS, the rules are less than watertight about how companies declare stuff like that).

Has anyone asked TTC for their side of the story yet?

I messaged them and they've said they will respond but they're tied up with preparation for UK games expo at present and will respond when that's all done

(it's a major gaming/retail event over here for those not in the UK so this does seem believable as TTC/Troll Trader usually have a substantial presence

I'm going to UKGE, so I'm half-tempted to ask them about it while I'm there.

Not on the Saturday, though - I'm not a monster...

Over on Facebook Justin (from SWM) and Louis from TTC did have a bit of an exchange on this post:

Justin: this is about a company falsely claiming to have a license for our resin products and bases, which made it impossible for me to sell the company, or license our product to legitimate parties.

Louis: Utter Rubbish

Justin: Louis Simpson please respond through your attorney.

and a second exchange

Louis: This is utter crap Justin and you know it.

Justin: Louis Simpson please respond through your attorney.

So it's not about HD bases but TTC making SWM bases and selling them (which I do remember something about).

deano2099 wrote:
Honestly that update confused the hell out of me and a good half of me thinks its entirely fabricated. I'm not well-versed on company law in the US so maybe someone who is could enlighten me!

"This situation has forced Secret Weapon to default on its debts to US Bank, who now hold the Secret Weapon IP, and all outstanding accounts payable."

So first, how did that happen? Did SW take out a loan from US Bank with the company as collateral? And US Bank now own the company because of the default? Is that something that can happen?

That's plausible but then:

"Secret Weapon will continue to sell the Secret Weapon paint, and dungeon tiles, while inventories last so that it can continue to cover rent on the warehouse where the physical assets are being stored on behalf of US Bank."

So SW is paying the rent on the warehouse that is holding assets that are now owned by US Bank? How the hell did that happen? And surely if the assets are owned by US bank, they would get the money from the sale, so how does that help them pay the warehouse fee and why is someone being contracted by Justin to do it?

Writing all this out, it seems to me that SW took out a loan from US Bank with the company as collateral, they defaulted on the loan and now US Bank own SW outright. And are selling off stock in the warehouse while attempting to find a buyer or make the call to wind up the company.

But the update seems determined to hide this to present a somewhat rosier picture

Not sure on the specifics but to me it sounds like the company is facing bankruptcy or insolvency (if not already bankrupt/insolvent) and as such US Bank has "receivership" over SWM (either through court order or as part of the terms of a previous financing arrangement). As such, SWM is now working at the behest of US Bank (who have administrative control and ownership of the business) to sell inventory to pay off debts owed. If they are successful in covering debts through sales (very highly unlikely, I think), then its possible the company exits receivership and reverts to the control of its previous owners, if not then US Bank will sell off the IP, company assets, or the company as a whole in order to recover losses/cover their debt (based on the wording of the update, it sounds like there isn't enough inventory to cover the debts and that a sale of all assets and IP is the only real way that US Bank will be able to recover debts owed. The warehouse is presumably leased through SWM as a legal entity, so USBank is obligated to continue paying the lease (or may attempt to renegotiate or exit under favorable terms if that is what the receiver determines is the best course of action for US Bank), as they are (per the update) responsible for all accounts payable, which would include paying rent. Even though SWM as a business is no longer owned by Justin, that doesn't mean it ceases to exist and stops functioning, so yes - the company is selling inventory in order to continue covering operating costs on behalf of the new ownership - fairly standard practice in receivership.

I don't think the update is trying to hide anything or paint a rosy picture, its fairly black and white in its statements and outlook, not much need to read between lines, etc. As lord_blackfang put it, fairly obvious "big yikes" energy is very plain to read here, with obvious implications for the future of SWM. It sounds likely they will not find a buyer unless they can resolve the issues with TTC, which likely means whatever kickstarter stuff or whatever is owed to people will never be delivered.

deano2099 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

deano2099 wrote:
But at no point does the update use the words "winding up", "bankruptcy" or "liquidation" is my point.

Folds, out of business, selling remaining inventory - what exactly would satisfy you here?

As someone who has money in their Kickstarter, I'm a creditor, so yeah it matters to me to at least have some formal process to apply to try and get a few pennies back.

They've not filed for Chapter X. I've checked. Multiple times.

But no, I didn't know it was possible in the US to close up your business and just writing/calling creditors and telling them you're getting nothing. In the UK if you're unable to pay all your debts you have to follow a specific process that gives all creditors the chance to apply

You are not, in fact, a creditor in the eyes of the US legal system. Having been through a couple bankrupted kickstarters myself, no kickstarter creator has a legal obligation to you as a creditor, at least as far as existing precedent is concerned. Its quite simply "buyer beware"/"back at your own risk". I have received, on multiple occasions, legal notice from the receivers/bankruptcy managers, etc. that this was the case with kickstarters that fell through. If you disagree with that assessment, your only real recourse would be to take it up with the legal system and file lawsuits challening the determination that the creator has no obligation to you. It would probably cost you way more money to do so than the value of whatever it is they owed you.

 Polonius wrote:
There's something vaguely fishy about this. SWM seems to be arguing that Troll Trader's actions, either in selling counterfeit bases or in their legal claim to those bases, is preventing the sale of the base IP, which is the money that would be used to further the kickstarter. For several reasons, I have doubts. There are ways to put liens on assets to prevent the owner from simply selling them, but those require a court to grant them, and the person putting the Lien has to have a valid claim *(usually money owed related to the item). SWM seems to be arguing that Troll Trader stole their bases like their an NFT, and now SWM can't sell the base IP... which I find hard to believe. Now, obviously, there could be info we don't have, but as a business that was going out of business anyway, this seems like a bit of a cover story.
Frankly, even if SWM had clear title to it's bases, I'm not certain how much they would be worth. Maybe the designs are popular enough to have a lot of value, but it just seems that in a dwindling market it's easier to just get fresh sculpts rather than buy a legacy product .

There's probably a bit more to this than is being shared, and Maybe Troll trader really is just knocking off the SWM bases and driving down their value. It just doesn't seem like there's enough value to make it worth it.

Theres nothing fishy about it. Troll Trader is claiming it owns right to SWM IP, and it seems they are exercising those rights to manufacture and distribute SWM products. SWM is claiming that Troll Trader has no such rights and that their activity is illegally infringing on SWMs IP, going so far as to refer to the products Troll Trader is producing as being "counterfeit". For obvious reasons, this presents very real issues to a sale - if there was a standing licensing agreement between SWM and TTC that would be one thing, but what is being claimed by SWM is that no such agreement exists (though evidently TTC seems to believe otherwise). This means that potential new owners looking to secure profits and ownership of the new IP would need to engage in a lengthy and expensive presumably trans-atlantic legal battle in order to sort out the mess. For a top end property with billions of dollars in potential profits on the line, there would probably be a buyer, but for fairly generic hobby products its simply not worth the headache. Finding a buyer for SWMs products and IP is probably already a tough sell because most of it is fairly generic, but if you were an entrepreneur looking to get a foot into the industry with an established customer base, etc. so that you could bring other products to market more effectively, it might be a good buy. Likewise if you were an established company lookign to diversify your product offerings then it might be an attractive move as well (for example, you're Para Bellum wargames and you're looking to expand your product range by way of a bespoke paint line and thematically appropriate miniatures bases, then you can buy SWM, relable the paint bottles and rebrand the base names and sell it as part of your own "hobby ecosystem" similar to how other players in the industry operate). But if theres someone out there selling your exact products and not paying you any royalties for it, why would you even bother?

There likely is nothing to put a lien against. TTCs supposed IP theft seems to involve the molds/production tooling/design files themsleves, as they seem to be restocking and continuing to sell product without the involvement of SWM. This means they are not just "stealing bases" as you contend, but rather producing the bases themselves and as such there is no basis on which SWM could put a lien on that product, as SWM would not have an accounts receivable invoice from TTC by which they could ask a court to place such a lien. If SWM had a business relationship with TTC that allowed to TTC to produce and distribute the bases locally in exchange for royalties payable to SWM, then that might be something to put a lien against - but if such a document existed there likely would not be an issue pursuing a sale of the business, unless maybe TTC was in arrears and not paying their bills - but that would be a separate issue that is more easily dealt with. Even if there was basis for a lien, we're talking about two companies operating under two different legal systems, getting a lien put on product held by a business in another country is not quite as simple as you describe.

Note that this isn't just an issue of the base IP, while it seems that the bases specifically are what TTC is ripping off, it seems that US Bank is looking to sell the entire business and all its assets to a single buyer. This is likely because the base IP on its own is probably near worthless, but when taken in conjunction with the tablescape tiles, dungeon tiles, paints, etc. has a combined value that might be worthwhile to a buyer.

In any case, seeing comments made elsewhere by and with regards to Troll Trader/TTC, I am guessing that what happened is that SWM outsourced production of the bases, likely to a factory in China or another nation with loose IP protections and a general disregard for ownership protections. When SWMs business dried up because of financial hardship, the factory may well have just stolen the molds (possibly legally justified if SWM owed them accounts payable and was unable to pay) and then sold them to whatever buyer they could find - in this case TTC. Hell, its entirely possible that TTC were the outsourced manufacturers and SWM owed them money, and they simply took possession of the molds when SWM didn't pay their dues - this isn't how it legally works in "the west" and TTC wouldn't be able to legally make that decision unilaterally/without court order, unless the molds were being kept in China or something and the transfer was done through an international shell corporation, etc. but thats all james bond white collar crime type gak which I doubt applies here. In practice, however, this sort of thing happens a *lot*, often enabled by vague contractual clauses that attempt to legitimize such actions as a form of compensatory restitution in the event of non-payment, etc. In many cases these terms are unenforceable, but it costs more money to fight it than it does to accept it, etc.

I don't know what relationship SWM might have had with TTC/TT in the past, if any (I could find nothing linking them online), but TTC is currently claiming that they are the *new* owners of the mold, which seems to imply this is a recent development and that they acquired the rights rather than having them previously. SWM seems to be saying that they have no licensing relationship with TTC. If we give both the benefit of the doubt, then it seems likely that TTC belives its the rightful owner of the IP because they believe they obtained the rights, molds, etc. legitimately via an entity that presented itself as having ownership of them and the ability to transfer them, or through some legal mechanism that allowed them to obtain ownership of it outside of SWMs purview. The only entity that I could think of that might be able to pull off something like that, other than an errant business partner at SWM itself (perfectly possible if Justin had a business partner or a well-positioned employee that saw the way the cards were folding and didn't care who he screwed over or how so long as he got out from under it in time) would be whatever entity held the molds or design files on behalf of SWM. The only other possibility is that SWM and TTC signed some sort of distribution agreement and one or both parties didn't properly do their due diligence on the terms of the contract etc - if so, then TTC may believe that this give them license rights when it doesn't, or SWM may have given them the rights without realizing it and are disputing that, but based on what little info we have that doesn't seem to be the case.

chaos0xomega wrote:

You are not, in fact, a creditor in the eyes of the US legal system. Having been through a couple bankrupted kickstarters myself, no kickstarter creator has a legal obligation to you as a creditor, at least as far as existing precedent is concerned. Its quite simply "buyer beware"/"back at your own risk". I have received, on multiple occasions, legal notice from the receivers/bankruptcy managers, etc. that this was the case with kickstarters that fell through. If you disagree with that assessment, your only real recourse would be to take it up with the legal system and file lawsuits challening the determination that the creator has no obligation to you. It would probably cost you way more money to do so than the value of whatever it is they owed you.

Ah okay, if that's how the US law is structured with regards to Kickstarter you've convinced me - this was definitely a scam from the start. It mean they could launch a fake project with no intention of fulfilling it, get a big cash injection, and then avoid bankruptcy as the fulfilment of the KS project isn't legally considered a liability so doesn't have to be declared as such on the books.

He's a scammer, pure and simple, took money from people with no intention of ever fulfilling it. Was giving the benefit of the doubt before but you've convinced me!

deano2099 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

You are not, in fact, a creditor in the eyes of the US legal system. Having been through a couple bankrupted kickstarters myself, no kickstarter creator has a legal obligation to you as a creditor, at least as far as existing precedent is concerned. Its quite simply "buyer beware"/"back at your own risk". I have received, on multiple occasions, legal notice from the receivers/bankruptcy managers, etc. that this was the case with kickstarters that fell through. If you disagree with that assessment, your only real recourse would be to take it up with the legal system and file lawsuits challening the determination that the creator has no obligation to you. It would probably cost you way more money to do so than the value of whatever it is they owed you.

Ah okay, if that's how the US law is structured with regards to Kickstarter you've convinced me - this was definitely a scam from the start. It mean they could launch a fake project with no intention of fulfilling it, get a big cash injection, and then avoid bankruptcy as the fulfilment of the KS project isn't legally considered a liability so doesn't have to be declared as such on the books.

Yeah, that very course of action was rather popular on Kickstarter some years ago.

FETH Secret Weapon was great

I think that’s a bit of a step to take. Over 500 people backed the campaign, and using it as a scam based purely on bankruptcy technicalities seems like a sure fire way to wreck your business and personal reputation.

Thanks for the post chaos0xomega, very interesting

chaos0xomega wrote:

There's nothing fishy about it. Troll Trader is claiming it owns right to SWM IP, and it seems they are exercising those rights to manufacture and distribute SWM products.

Are they? I tried looking for anything where TTC was claiming that outside of SWMs statements, and I couldn't, but obviously if TTC is making those claims it's different.

In any case, seeing comments made elsewhere by and with regards to Troll Trader/TTC, I am guessing that what happened is that SWM outsourced production of the bases, likely to a factory in China or another nation with loose IP protections and a general disregard for ownership protections. When SWMs business dried up because of financial hardship, the factory may well have just stolen the molds (possibly legally justified if SWM owed them accounts payable and was unable to pay) and then sold them to whatever buyer they could find - in this case TTC.

It's worth pointing out that nearly the same thing happened with the tablescapes tiles, in which the factory basically seized the molds and froze SWM out. Once is a bad beat, twice starts to look like a pattern in picking business partners.

 Polonius wrote:


It's worth pointing out that nearly the same thing happened with the tablescapes tiles, in which the factory basically seized the molds and froze SWM out. Once is a bad beat, twice starts to look like a pattern in picking business partners.

And yet people keep doing business with China...

 Dawnbringer wrote:

 Polonius wrote:


It's worth pointing out that nearly the same thing happened with the tablescapes tiles, in which the factory basically seized the molds and froze SWM out. Once is a bad beat, twice starts to look like a pattern in picking business partners.

And yet people keep doing business with China...

I can't really blame some of these smaller companies for trying. It's not like production in China made production cheaper, it made production cheap enough to be possible. It's not like Tablescapes tiles were cheap even made in China, if made in the US they'd be prohibitively expensive.

They can try, but I'm not sure there is much of a track record of it ever working out long term. I think even Wargames Atlantic has started moving production back to the West.

Even with GW, lots of people attribute the random availability of their terrain being due to production in China.

 Dawnbringer wrote:

 Polonius wrote:


It's worth pointing out that nearly the same thing happened with the tablescapes tiles, in which the factory basically seized the molds and froze SWM out. Once is a bad beat, twice starts to look like a pattern in picking business partners.

And yet people keep doing business with China...

This is more a lot of these factories charge to store the molds or own the molds so things are on hand when you want more made. Some places also use this to make it very difficult to move your business elsewhere. Even resin and metal casters will do the same, like Valliant and others similar here in the US. Whenever Tre of RBG use to end product lines he'd mention having to tell the manufacturer to destroy the mold. So I totally believe that the factory Justin was using wanted money for the molds. The question is was that in the contract or not? We'll never no.

Same with this tiff with TTC as unless we see the contracts it will just be one person's word against the others in the public space and we'll, naturally, just move to believing whoever has the best PR team.

 Polonius wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

There's nothing fishy about it. Troll Trader is claiming it owns right to SWM IP, and it seems they are exercising those rights to manufacture and distribute SWM products.

Are they? I tried looking for anything where TTC was claiming that outside of SWMs statements, and I couldn't, but obviously if TTC is making those claims it's different.

From what I could find around on social media, kickstarter comments, etc. various people have reached out to TTC about this. Initial responses were that they were the new owner of the IP and they acquired the rights legitimately, etc. without much further detail. More recently, as someone else said, they have been saying that they would release a more formal statement once their con prep was done.

It's worth pointing out that nearly the same thing happened with the tablescapes tiles, in which the factory basically seized the molds and froze SWM out. Once is a bad beat, twice starts to look like a pattern in picking business partners.

The dirty secret to doing business with China is that working with honest and reliable partners and having the necessary precautionary safeguards in place so you dont get defrauded or your gak doesn't get stolen will cost you almost as much as domestic production in the US. Its a trap that many smaller and newer businesses fall into. If youre trying to source production as cheaply as possible and you forgo working with a reputable agent/broker ($$$), etc. to find a factory to work with and just go with the lowest price quote you get off of an alibaba search, you're probably going to have a bad time in the long run. I wouldn't be surprised if this is how SWM went about it in order to suppress costs - I can't even really blame them for it because for many the costs of bringing these products to market at all is a major barrier to making it a reality, add additional upfront costs for things like agent/broker fees, insurance, field representatives, etc. and if youre an aspiring entrepreneur you might resign yourself to the idea that you have no chance of bringing a product to market. So, when you get a quote from what seems to be a reputable operation and its within your budget, you jump at the opportunity and disregard all the other stuff as overly cautious unnecessary costs - kind of like springing for the extended warranty for that new vacuum. And the truth is, realistically, its the sort of thing that you can get away with your first couple goes because the "budget" end of Chinese business operations that you might partner with will rarely outright defraud you on the first go round, they want your repeat business after all, and they ensure that they will have it by giving you what seems a sweetheart deal on your production tooling - these come in many forms, but usually they revolve around financing or discounting the production tooling through some less than transparent deal. I.E. they'll finance the molds for you so your only upfront costs are the actual production casts and you repay the cost of the molds over time (with modest interest, of course) or they discount the molds heavily if you agree to let them store/retain the molds (either with an agreement that they get exclusivity on a number of future production runs or that you pay fees to release the molds to another entity, etc.) with tons of vaguely worded stipulations and clauses in the fine print that you will almost invariably misunderstand or miss entirely.

Your first dealings with the company will probably be good, but they will inevitably hit you for additional costs "oh sorry, these files are in the wrong format, heres a bill for $2500 for our draftsmen to re-engineer this for you", "your design doesn't meet our engineering parameters, heres a bill for $1000 for our engineers time to redo your draft angles and re-part your sprues", "our 25-ton press has insufficient capacity to fill your mold properly, we will have to re-engineer the molds to fit our 75-ton press instead, heres a bill for $10k to re-engineer and re-cut the tooling", etc. Often it will be a nickel and dime approach for a few hundred bucks here, a thousand there. You will pay it, because the charges are small and manageable and its still a great deal and this sort of thing happens, right? The charges will get progressively larger and you will continue paying it, because sunk cost fallacies and frogs in boiling water, etc. but if your manufacturing partner is reputable they won't completely feth you and you will still come out ahead and you won't feel bad about it, and you will convince yourself the same would have happened no matter where you went, so at least you got the best price otherwise you might not have been able to afford seeing it through to completion. You will continue to use them for additional production runs, because of the terms of your agreement heavily incentivize it or you feel comfortable/safe with what you know and don't want to rock the boat or take a risk switching to a different partner - after all, what if the other factory tries to scam you! You got lucky, the guys you're working with now didn't scam you, you got lucky! You're safe! Your second and maybe third production run with them nothing is amiss, maybe you even open up additional product lines with them, etc. This lulls you into a false sense of security - good thing you didn't pay extra to insure the molds, etc. that would have cost a small fortune, that stuff is for suckers that don't know what they're doing, but you're smarter than that and no insurance company is going to take advantage of you!

But then suddenly theres a 20% increase in material costs on your next production run, or a quality issue that will require additional money to resolve, etc. Slowly over time additional costs will come up, or billing issues will arise (you may notice that they billed you for 50,000 units on your fourth production run, but you only ordered and received 35,000, or that they billed you an extra half-cent per part over the price you agreed to, or they start charging you additional fees - "theres no setup fee on your second through fifth production run, but starting on your sixth run you will be charged a $5,000 setup per production run plus a $350 storage fee on your molds for every month that they aren't being used in active production, didn't you read the fine print on the contract you signed?"), early on you'll be able to successfully push back on some of these practices if you're diligent and manage to catch them ("oh sorry, that extra half-cent was a spreadsheet error, heres the corrected invoice"), but invariably they will catch you in legalese and contractual terms that you missed or misunderstood and you will end up reluctantly paying additional charges and fees - but its your fault for not reading the fine print so even though you know you're getting screwed, you try to convince yourself otherwise. Eventually though, you will have enough and get fed up with it, and want to move production to another factory that you think won't nickel and dime you, and thats where the teeth come out. Either you get hit with those buried contract terms that say you have to pay an extortionate amount of money to get your molds back, or they suddenly hit you with a supposedly unpaid invoice that you've never seen before for something that you have no record of ever agreeing to, etc. and refuse to release molds until you make good on it, etc. This is where most cut their losses, as sometimes they take your money and run, and you got nothing to show for it, and most people are smart enough to not take that chance, at this point its sometimes cheaper/more cost effective to just find a new factory and produce a new set of tooling than take the risk of being out tens of thousands of additional dollars - hopefully this time you're smart enough to work through a reputable intermediary to identify a more reliable partner, but not everyone learns their lessons that quickly and some just chalk it up to an isolated bad experience. What happens when you walk though can vary, less reputable businesses will absolutely sell the molds off to someone else or put it into production themselves and sell counterfeit goods if they think they can profit off of it. The more reputable ones will simply just destroy it, especially if they've already managed to milk enough money off of you for it to have been a profitable venture for them - besides, they need to be able to continue to do business and outright theft of your molds will scare away customers, whereas a contractual/legal/financial disagreement between you and them can easily be written off as you operating in bad faith (rather than they) or the result of a misunderstanding, etc.

And its not just new businesses run by green entrepreneurs that this happens to, even more seasoned businesses dealing with slightly reliable partners sometimes get caught in this trap (see also: Privateer Press) if they leave themselves open to it by trying to cut corners or finance production under what seems to be favorable (but in reality are fairly predatory) terms. Sometimes it works out and you never get caught in the trap because you're able to repay the financing deal early/in full, etc. before they can hit you, other times you have product demand fall out from underneath you, take a huge loss on unsold inventory, miss a couple installment payments and then get hit with massively extortionate penalties and fees. The main thing to keep in mind is that Chinese businessmen (really, any businessman) is not your friend and the sweetheart deal they are offering you to do business with them isn't there to help you save money, its there to help them make money, and they will always come out ahead no matter how successful or unsuccesful you are.

deano2099 wrote:
He's a scammer, pure and simple, took money from people with no intention of ever fulfilling it. Was giving the benefit of the doubt before but you've convinced me!

You've convinced yourself. If you really want to know of a KS scam, search on "Ice Age Miniatures Kickstarter". In fact, I'll help you, or at least anyone not familiar with it. I thought there was a Dakka thread about it, but can't find it. Reaper. Concerns start on page 2, and keeps going. : https://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/55475-adw-ice-age-miniatures-kickstarter/page/2/

Then there's Confrontation, by Sans Detour. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/717182.page

That said, with a scam, you lose your money. When a company goes out of business, you lose your money. Same results. It's an understatement to say that KS doesn't have transparency, and, as a backer, you aren't told the financials of the business, alternative sources of income, etc., not that I know any backers who have actually done that. (Although in the real business world, companies, including publicly traded ones, can do a good job of hiding information, anyway.)

fwiw, UK-based 4Ground is also bankrupt (or whatever) and KS backers aren't getting their money, nor were told. Typical. I suspect these companies don't talk because lawyers. (Besides, if you get mad at them, what are you going to do? Not buy anything from them again?) https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804029.page

Detecting scams (and red flags) tends to be a community process, since information is often found online. Myself, I helped research the Ice Age Miniatures scam, and even outed Archon as Prodos. Business problems and unexpected events are almost impossible to find online, and are much more difficult to find before they've collected your money. As much as I back KS, I've passed on projects whose costs I'd pay were they retail. Do we seriously have to know where a steel mold is before backing a project???

Thanks to chaos for his posts.

General question to those with knowledge of the industry, then - where's the chokepoint when it comes to getting sprue production in "the West" to a point where it can affordably challenge China, without having to go fully Wild West on the contract side of things?

I mean, I can think of a few possibilities, but I'm wondering which might actually apply:
- Labour cost of tooling
- Cost of tech for tooling of CAD-generated sprues
- Cost of raw material for moulds
- Lack of the machines needed to produce HIPS castings
- Raw material cost for the plastic, maybe?

Just wondering why it doesn't seem like there are that many companies in "the West" targeting this gap in the market.

Everything I've ever heard is it's straight up the labor cost of tooling in the US. If a mold is 100k in China and 300k in the US it's going to be vary hard to compete against someone making their product in China.

I don't know if the Chinese government subsidizes the work, I would suspect so, but you're right. You'd think someone would try to compete. Clearly the UK has a few (perry and UK) that do as aren't those 100% done over there? Molds and all?

 Monkeysloth wrote:
Everything I've ever heard is it's straight up the labor cost of tooling in the US. If a mold is 100k in China and 300k in the US it's going to be vary hard to compete against someone making their product in China.

I don't know if the Chinese government subsidizes the work, I would suspect so, but you're right. You'd think someone would try to compete. Clearly the UK has a few (perry and UK) that do as aren't those 100% done over there? Molds and all?

Yes, Renedra to the tooling and production all in the UK. They are the suppliers for Perry and a few others. Victrix also do their own production in the UK as well I believe.

Unfortunately, things can go south with domestic as well. SWM and Architects of Destruction (both in California) had staff directly hit with CoVid, and it and other small businesses (I know of a burger joint and comic book shop, both of which were operating for over 30 years close shop because of CoVid) were dramatically affected by CoVid, in addition to the various problems small companies face. AoD (and Archon) do in-house plastic injection (AoD's initial caster quit on them after AoD funded), and AoD has both lost money (they're funding themselves with their day jobs) and had delays. Another in-house plastic injection KS (Minerva?) I backed was in Argentina and a dispute with the caster (found after delays that one of the partners thought they could get it done on the cheap or something) resulted in no product made.

So if you're looking for a reliable miniatures KS, I'd point to a company, like Reaper miniatures or CMON, who have alternate funding to cover project losses. (This, of course, sort of defeats the spirit of KS, which is that companies don't have enough funding on their own for a project.) Or companies that use Siocast or metal. Both can be made in-house, or a domestic caster (not that this helped AoD), and are smaller projects, so don't run into large scale problems when problems arise. However, both are more expensive per miniature than bulk plastic, especially boardgames. Avoid resin projects (which seem to be going away thanks to Siocast), because the material cannot be recycled and resin requires the most skill to work with (of the few resin KS I've been in, resin KS have the worst track record).

Or, for plastic injection, suck it up and wait for retail. I've picked up CMON at below KS price from Miniature Market, thanks to MM's something something connections with CMON. Noble Knight I bought various KS games used. Most games, of course, were base game or retail products, not exclusives, and I didn't get all the KS games I would have liked (not that, after all that drama, I have time to play or paint them all...

I believe Victrix uses Renedra as well. Basically if its a UK based business doing domestically made plastic miniatures and its not GW then they are most likely either using Renedra or Warcradle for plastic production.

 Dysartes wrote:
General question to those with knowledge of the industry, then - where's the chokepoint when it comes to getting sprue production in "the West" to a point where it can affordably challenge China, without having to go fully Wild West on the contract side of things?
I mean, I can think of a few possibilities, but I'm wondering which might actually apply:
- Labour cost of tooling
- Cost of tech for tooling of CAD-generated sprues
- Cost of raw material for moulds
- Lack of the machines needed to produce HIPS castings
- Raw material cost for the plastic, maybe?

Just wondering why it doesn't seem like there are that many companies in "the West" targeting this gap in the market.

The big chokepoint is the knowledge/skillset and the equipment. Western plastics production is fairly robust and widespread... its just focused on industries that are nothing at all like the miniatures/toy industry, with a heavy emphasis on rapid production/short turn around time or very very large production runs (as in the entirety of GWs annual production output combined x10 per part/kit). The technologies and equipment used are different, the knowledge and skillset of the mold engineers and toolmakers are different, etc. Even though you can find plenty of companies in the US and Europe that can produce plastic injection molds for you, very few of them have the capability to produce molds for complex and highly detailed miniatures in the same vein as GWs products, and fewer still have the ability to do it well enough that the quality is comparable to "industry standard", etc. That knowledge and capability comes at an additional cost because its so rare and hyper-specialized. Then on top of that you have the generally higher operating costs (real estate, energy, labor, overhead, etc.) to operate a facility in the US or UK as well as the higher material costs in the US, etc. etc. etc. and it adds up quick.

In terms of actual production costs (i.e. shooting the mold full of plastic), using a highly automated US facility is about the same cost as doing it in China - but automation means big upfront $$$ costs and the only plastics manufacturing facilities that do that in the US (or really, anywhere) are making things like medical devices or aerospace grade precision parts, etc. that have multibillion dollar contracts behind them or extremely high volume goods with volumes measured in the tens or hundreds of millions of parts, etc. and so they can afford state of the art equipment and facilities on that basis. Its just not going to happen for miniatures, because the volume isn't there - aside from GW and maybe Asmodee, most companies producing miniatures or plastic kits aren't selling more than 20-50k copies of any given kit over the lifetime of that entire product line. Domestic plastics manufacturers with automated lines probably won't even pick up the phone unless your order quantity is a million + units, so thats not really an option. As such your only realistic option is to use a company that uses a more labor intensive process, but for 20k units packed into product packaging you're maybe looking at a $2000-2500 labor upcharge ($0.10 to $0.125 per part) which isn't really anything worth sweating about in the long run, unlike say if your were ordering 20 million units and that labor upcharge worked out to be an extra $2-2.5 million - then you might put the time and money into trying to reduce the labor costs because the dollar value on that is much more "real" than a one time few of a couple thousand bucks.

 Dawnbringer wrote:

 Polonius wrote:


It's worth pointing out that nearly the same thing happened with the tablescapes tiles, in which the factory basically seized the molds and froze SWM out. Once is a bad beat, twice starts to look like a pattern in picking business partners.

And yet people keep doing business with China...

Isn't that basically what happened with PP too? (And why they don't have any plastic minis anymore).