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Prepare for more endless debate.

In order to set the record straight I will identify that TTC was engaged in the acquisition of Secret Weapon Miniatures, Inc. using a plan proposed by TTC, and that monies transferred were clearly identified by TTC as intended for wages, rent, and shipping. I will show that TTC does not have, and has never had, a legitimate license to produce Secret Weapon products, and has been engaged in the sale of counterfeit products in the US, UK, and abroad. I will show that as soon as TTC received the last of the Secret Weapon master molds, along with more than $50,000 worth of non-resin products produced and shipped at their request, they declared that cash transfers previously identified as intended for wages, rent, and shipping as part of their acquisition proposal were now license fees after the fact, and that they walked away from the acquisition agreement that Secret Weapon had executed in good faith knowing that it would force me to close the company.

(SEE THE UPDATE FOR THE FULL STORY AND EVIDENCE)

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/secretweapon/hd-bases-by-secret-weapon-miniatures-0/posts/3551096

Way too much to post via my phone.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
Prepare for more endless debate.

I just want my bases.

Huh, so I was more or less on the money with my thesis that TT owed SWM money for one thing and then retroactively claimed it to be a license fee, etc. Ketara was even more on the money with the idea that they were engaged in a deal for TT to purchase SWM which fell apart (though not in the way he necessarily thought it would) If this is true (and I very much believe it), then TTC is acting really scumily.

Either that, or Justin was reading this thread and took inspiration from it to make up one hell of a convincing story.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Huh, so I was more or less on the money with my thesis that TT owed SWM money for one thing and then retroactively claimed it to be a license fee, etc. Ketara was even more on the money with the idea that they were engaged in a deal for TT to purchase SWM which fell apart (though not in the way he necessarily thought it would) If this is true (and I very much believe it), then TTC is acting really scumily.

Either that, or Justin was reading this thread and took inspiration from it to make up one hell of a convincing story.

Indeed.

Never give another company that kind of leverage over your business. Even if revenues are drying up, they will use it to your detriment.

If the evidence is as solid as suggested there will be no trouble winning the case in court.

For me the thing that really paints Louis in a bad light is the Vacation accusations. If Justin is correct, and he was not working from some expected cubicle, but instead remotely for a few days and properly reporting his work that's some real abusive micromanaging crap. Just from my own experiences with people like that if nothing else Justin posted was true I'd probably never buy from TTC again.

But add all the other dishonesty claimed by Justin, even providing email texts were TTC refused to even pay the fees they claim they are paying, and TTC really looks to be a pretty predatory company.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Huh, so I was more or less on the money with my thesis that TT owed SWM money for one thing and then retroactively claimed it to be a license fee, etc. Ketara was even more on the money with the idea that they were engaged in a deal for TT to purchase SWM which fell apart (though not in the way he necessarily thought it would) If this is true (and I very much believe it), then TTC is acting really scumily.

Yup, you called it remarkably well and I doff my cap to you sir. I was wrong and you were right.

 Monkeysloth wrote:

But add all the other dishonesty claimed by Justin, even providing email texts were TTC refused to even pay the fees they claim they are paying, and TTC really looks to be a pretty predatory company.

If you read the comments on that KS update, Justin mentioned in a reply that he heard there was drama in the TT acquisition of Dropzone/Dropfleet Commander as well.

I think the big open question from Justin's post is what the hell happened that it went from TT acquiring them to TT pulling out seemingly overnight.

He includes a lot of email evidence for everything, but then the crucial point on which the whole thing turns is "TTC walked away from their proposal in July 2021, and declared that they had negotiated a license agreement with me."

No actual copy from the email where they do this.

Weirdly that actually makes the entire thing *more* credible to me. I feel like Justin probably did something there that paints him in a bad light and so doesn't want share, but that does indicate that the broad strokes of what he's painting are accurate, and it's not all some flight of fancy. Like, if he was going to make something up, that'd be the one fake email you'd absolutely include.

KillerAngel wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:

But add all the other dishonesty claimed by Justin, even providing email texts were TTC refused to even pay the fees they claim they are paying, and TTC really looks to be a pretty predatory company.

If you read the comments on that KS update, Justin mentioned in a reply that he heard there was drama in the TT acquisition of Dropzone/Dropfleet Commander as well.

That could just refer to the fact that while Dave (old owner/game designer) was kept on the rest of Hawk Wargamers was let go which came as a shock to many. Still it's important to note that Dave is still working for TTCombat on Dropfleet/Dropzone and if there really was anything truely nasty going on i'm sure he'd have walked (its not as if jobs in the gaming industry are hugely well paid)

Playing devils advocate, and I'm still not coming down on either side here, nothing SW have posted says directly that a purchase was being discussed.

He is right that nothing mentions a licence agreement was being discussed either however.


That said discussion of P&L does point more towards a purchase, and that TTC are discussing the debt to the bank would indicate that they have some worry on this - which wouldn't be the case with a licence agreement (unless it was included in the agreement, but that would be massively unusual). The talk around the staff employed would also point towards a purchase of the company and not a licence, though it is possible that the licence "fee" discussed would have been "running and staff costs", it's unusual not an unheard of payment type for a licence and then TTC would have been valid in asking for this.

I would say that his argument that rebranding is not normally part of a licence agreement is wrong however, this happens a lot. Hell at one point even GW were just rebranding (and marking up) other peoples products, hey might even still be doing this with their plastic glue.

With all that said, it definitely does look from SW input here like the initial talk was around purchasing the company. The devil however will be in the detail - what is included in the messages we haven't seen? Why do TTC now believe that this was a licence fee? Was there some discussion of changing from a purchase to a licence due to the outstanding US bank debt?

I'm not saying these things DID happen, but it would be interesting to hear a rebuttal from TTC.

It is interesting to note that the 3rd solution offered by TTC (email of 7th September 2021) is to purchase the SW IP - which would seem an odd solution to offer if they had just pulled out of doing exactly that!

Looks like TTC published their emails with SW in full.

https://community.ttcombat.com/2022/07/08/secret-weapon-update/

well the 2019 team up is a real post

(in case people wonder if they could have edited it in to their own blog recently it was also posted on facebook at that time, and commented on by somebody at that time too)

surprising that Justin never mentioned this if his complaints are genuine

Those PayPal receipts are pretty damning...

KillerAngel wrote:
Those PayPal receipts are pretty damning...

Yeah, so is posting screengrabs of the emails, rather than supposed text snippets. Either way, this all looks to be a huge mess, and both sides, IMO, are exhibiting kinda dickish behavior.

Durandal wrote:
Looks like TTC published their emails with SW in full.

https://community.ttcombat.com/2022/07/08/secret-weapon-update/

*sigh*

The only thing revealed by these exchanges is the utter lack of negotiating skills on both sides.

Justin left himself very exposed to manipulation through the lack of clarity. He allowed his counterparty to dictate the finances for his business, which should never happen. There was probably some uncertainty about what to do with Secret Weapon when he was talking to Justin, which is fine. But there's no evidence he was standing up for his own interests, and it feels like it's affected this crowdfunding campaign.

Louis thinks making a note on a cash transfer constitutes a licensing deal. I could park a fleet of trucks in the gaps between those emails, there are no details to make sense of. He's also continuing to negotiate with Justin over stock and payment for molds. Putting this out there publicly is a pressure tactic, if he honestly wanted some kind of a deal it should be done in private. If the other side is lying, as he claims, you have to be the adult in the room or it's just mush.

This is a petty dispute. The only question anyone cares about is whether they will receive their HD Bases. Regardless of the truth of what happened, Louis is needlessly jeopardizing his own reputation with these childish posts.

If Louis was concerned about his reputation, he would focus his public communications strictly on constructive topics, i.e. what's the status of the bases and will they be delivered. It's in everyone's interests to put that question to bed once and for all. Louis would then communicate privately with Justin's lawyer and resolve whatever issues are left. Lawyers cost money, there's no financial sense in dragging this out.

Then everyone would move on.

Seriously, no one cares whose underwear has the longest skid marks. Everyone knows the garments stink, what matters is who gets them cleaned up and washed.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Durandal wrote:
Looks like TTC published their emails with SW in full.

https://community.ttcombat.com/2022/07/08/secret-weapon-update/

*sigh*

The only thing revealed by these exchanges is the utter lack of negotiating skills on both sides.

This has been something I've thought since the beginning that 90% of this is just caused because no one actually sat down and said "lets get this all in writing and notarized".

 Monkeysloth wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Durandal wrote:
Looks like TTC published their emails with SW in full.

https://community.ttcombat.com/2022/07/08/secret-weapon-update/

*sigh*

The only thing revealed by these exchanges is the utter lack of negotiating skills on both sides.

This has been something I've thought since the beginning that 90% of this is just caused because no one actually sat down and said "lets get this all in writing and notarized".

I think that's the one thing everyone on the outside looking in can probably agree on

 Dysartes wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Durandal wrote:
Looks like TTC published their emails with SW in full.

https://community.ttcombat.com/2022/07/08/secret-weapon-update/

*sigh*

The only thing revealed by these exchanges is the utter lack of negotiating skills on both sides.

This has been something I've thought since the beginning that 90% of this is just caused because no one actually sat down and said "lets get this all in writing and notarized".

I think that's the one thing everyone on the outside looking in can probably agree on

I am known for my controversial hot takes.

And rebuttal from Justin

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/secretweapon/hd-bases-by-secret-weapon-miniatures-0/posts/3552900

The only thing revealed by these exchanges is that both of them are apparently allergic to lawyers. I struggle to believe that all of this would have been negotiated in email and at no point did either party go "hey, lets sign a legally binding contract to keep this all above board".

In any case, Justins original post alludes to a *ton* more emails than what TTC has revealed, and TTCs own emails are obviously very carefully selected as theres clear discontinuity between the content and substance of messages that very clearly points to the fact that they chose to omit information.

You will note that Justins original email is dated Feb 28, and it seems that per what TTC has revealed they didn't bother to reply for almost 3 months on May 26th (this is sarcasm to be clear). Theres quite clearly months worth of emails that are likely of significance and substance that are being overlooked here.

And of course theres over a week of time between the last set of emails that they shared and when the first of those two paypal receipts is dated - which presumably means there was additional discussion before TT sent payment to SWM. While the note on those paypal payments might say license fee, the substance of the likely omitted emails could have well indicated TT was agreeing to pay running costs as Justin previously indicated. On that basis, TTs "proof" falls well short of being "damning" as another poster suggested.

That being said, Justins latest response is a limp noodle. I would have liked to have seen more screenshots of whole emails, less carefully selected quotes and convoluted, confusing, and somewhat circular arguments in self-defense.

This whole thing is getting messy and gross, I'm getting popcorn.

Feels like they're just yelling "Rabbit Season" and "Duck Season" back and forth now.

chaos0xomega wrote:
The only thing revealed by these exchanges is that both of them are apparently allergic to lawyers.

Lawyers are expensive and I doubt either company has enough money available to take their claim to court. It seems like what we have here are a couple of amateurs who wrote up a bad business contract and now want to enforce their interpretation of it.

Looking at this from someone who has no horse in either race, or particular loyalty to either company, it seems to me (looking from the outside in) of two companies trying (and failing) to follow the basic business practice of thrashing out a deal with lawyers, so that every base is covered (pun intended.)

As of now, it appears to have devolved into a childish back and forth that does nothing than muddy waters, create drama and make both companies look fething stupid. Layer up, go to court, work it out and we can all go back to wargaming without unneeded daily mud flinging.

Hey guys

My name is Louis, director of TTCombat and TrollTrader. While I do not wish to waste any more time answering Justins posts (made difficult by the fact I am blocked from the SW facebook page and cannot comment on the kickstarter) I am happy to answer any questions that you might have. Please feel free to email me trolltrader@googlemail.com

To avoid answering the same questions multiple times I will compile a Q and A and then post it back here asap

Thanks in advance to anyone taking the time to get in touch.

I mean, no-one is ever getting their bases. I'm pretty sure on that.

 Breotan wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
The only thing revealed by these exchanges is that both of them are apparently allergic to lawyers.

Lawyers are expensive and I doubt either company has enough money available to take their claim to court. It seems like what we have here are a couple of amateurs who wrote up a bad business contract and now want to enforce their interpretation of it.

Thats the thing, it looks like they didn't even write up a contract , just a back and forth via email. A bad contract would have been better than no contract, surely? You don't even need a lawyer for that.

I mean, no-one is ever getting their bases. I'm pretty sure on that.

I'm really glad I didn't back that Kickstarter, but its a real shame because it looks like that could have been a phenomenal product line had it ever come to reality.

Oaxyotl123 wrote:
Hey guys

My name is Louis, director of TTCombat and TrollTrader. While I do not wish to waste any more time answering Justins posts (made difficult by the fact I am blocked from the SW facebook page and cannot comment on the kickstarter) I am happy to answer any questions that you might have. Please feel free to email me trolltrader@googlemail.com

To avoid answering the same questions multiple times I will compile a Q and A and then post it back here asap

Thanks in advance to anyone taking the time to get in touch.

As an alternative, please consider not posting your Q&A here. Or anywhere.

Your battle over narratives is pathetic. All ego.

Hard pass on helping you resolve your dispute with Justin. Settle things or we organize boycotts.

Exalt +1 on techsoldaten. This drama is best resolved and settled in private, stop trying to win in the court of public perception instead of doing the right thing.

Oaxyotl123 wrote:
Hey guys

My name is Louis, director of TTCombat and TrollTrader. While I do not wish to waste any more time answering Justins posts (made difficult by the fact I am blocked from the SW facebook page and cannot comment on the kickstarter) I am happy to answer any questions that you might have. Please feel free to email me trolltrader@googlemail.com

To avoid answering the same questions multiple times I will compile a Q and A and then post it back here asap

Thanks in advance to anyone taking the time to get in touch.

For reference, it really irritates me when someone takes advantage of anyone in this hobby. I've been screwed enough times, I feel protective.

I took umbrage when a company called Blue Table Painting screwed some guy over with a commission to paint an expensive Chaos Dwarves army. Made this post the number 1 link on Google searching for their name for 6 months.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1590/618082.page#7429362

It was also in the top 10 when searching for miniature painting service, commission painting, and a number of other common keyword phrases. Flooded out the rest with links to other content explaining why you'd rather have cancer than deal with that company.

Typically, BTP received ~2k organic links any given month prior to all this. I built enough interest in their business practices that my link farms we were receiving ~150k organic search links a month for this topic.

The owner was making daily YouTube videos desperately looking for some relief. At some point, the guy who got screwed settled with the company, so I stopped before running them out of business. Pretty sure I could have run them into the ground.

All that said: share whatever you want. I'll read it. If anything seems dishonest - like that stuff with US Bank - I'll respond.

Agree with techsoldaten and chaos0xomega; waiting to see how this gets resolved before fully jumping into Carnevale.