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 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There is a game state where IK armies become good, but it involves completely adding a new scoring objective to the Knight centric armies ALONE. Basically, if you are a knight army (More than 50% of your army cost is Knights) then you gain points through destruction of enemy forces, not through objectives or Psyker stuff.

That is the only state I can see IK winning a match in 9th, by giving them special rules.

Tau will likely need a complete overhaul and re-balance, as BS4 units with zero melee capability and over reliance on an outmoded combat phase (overwatch) are basically dead on arrival now.

I certainly don't disagree WRT Tau. You're probably right with Knights, but again, I'm not really saying otherwise.

I feel like I missed something here, didn't Tau get errata'ed to have always-on overwatch as a base rule? Playing a melee-centric list into army wide 5+ overwatch isn't any less painful than it was in 8th.

For the armies I actually own:

Loyalist Marines
Centurion Devastators. Which I know is a contentious pick for a model to like, but get past that and they're ludicrously overpriced. They're 60 points without a weapon, a Dreadnought is 85 and an Assault Centurion is only 30. That's absurd. (Assuming the Siege Drill costs as much as a Dreadnought CC weapon with identical stats that trades for free with a 15 point Missile Launcher, which seems like a fair assumption.)

Also almost all the tanks. I draw a special exception for the Whirlwind, but only because of Suppression Fire.

Oh, and Reivers. Reivers are doubly frustrating because they're so close visually to Suppressors.
It's just a stroke of the pen to make them Omnis armor with the base M 12", Fly, and native DS, that's a unit with a reason to exist. "Doesn't that invalidate Assault Marines?" No. Vanguard Veterans invalidated Assault Marines a long time ago.

Tyranids
A lot of people have panned a lot of 'nid units here, but for me in the context of what I actually own it's the Tervigon. Most of the 'nid units are woeful and I bought the army mostly to be NPCs in teaching games and as a handicap during the dark times of Marine Codex 2.0, but even by those standards the Tervigon is awful. It's melee is bad, it's shooting is worse, it's an HQ too big for Look Out Sir while also not having the right keywords for the bodyguards, and it's paradoxically stronger in fluffy narrative games than it is in competitive play. It's such a pretty model and it's rules are just a hot mess.

-Guardsman- wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:
Triumph of St Katherine. A pinnacle of model making and just gorgeous but a total garbage model in terms of actual function. In the last book it was pretty solid but they nerfed it for no particular reason.

Oh yeah. And the rules are way too complex. Layer upon layer of rules, including one that says that "this model benefits from all 6 sacred rites".

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Transports. I love the idea of mechanised infantry but it's just so pointless at the moment.

Would be nice if they brought back fire points, so that you could at least shoot with a special weapon or two.


I love Sslyths (I kitbashed my own using Melusai and Kabalite warriors). Sadly, I have little use for them right now. They could use power swords, IMO.

Scourges need a points reduction. 12 pts for a naked Scourge is way too much.

The SoB Hospitaller is unlikely to make back her points. It's regrettable, because I have one that I spent a long time painting and consider the jewel of my SoB collection.

.

Ive had a few lucky rounds resurrections on my Hospitaller and she brought back 3 sacresants a turn for 3 turns. Its not totally impossible but also not always likely. you just need to choose the right unit for her to shadow

Hankovitch wrote:
Anything orky that involves looting. Converted battlewagons, custom-built deff dreads, meka-dreads, and my Mr. Potato Head stompa. Looted-wagon tanks. Bommers.

I have so many models that I put time and love into crafting, that will continue to sit on the shelf so GW can push their Age of Sigmar pig-riders.

I have a whole shelf filled with the pinnacle of Orkish engineering, languishing in obsolescence. But hey, I don't do it for the meta.

I'd add The Fallen for the CSM. I'm going to make a whole army of this underwhelming unit.

Robute Girlyman.

waste of 340 points but i love the model and the overkill his melee can do. he brings a lot but takes up so many points in any reasonably competitive list that could be spent elsewhere.

WFB Pumbagor. Its an evil Pumba fgs!

Not sure if its "bad" rules wise as i dont play 40K but i found in my "box of bits" a.....

Tyranid Screamer Killer!!

Model quality compared to today. Awful. But its still beautiful and I can't wait to paint it up in retro 80/90s GW colour schemes

As usual, most of the DE HQs.

The Archon (who had a fantastic model in 5th and has always had plentiful conversion opportunities) is the supreme leader of a DE Kabal. They're effectively millennia old vampire-elves who feed on the lives and suffering of others. They're supposed to me masterful strategists and tacticians, with endless layers and webs of plans. Before entering combat, they pick from vast armouries that include the rarest and deadliest weapons in the Dark City.

So how does that manifest on the table?

They're S3 T3 blokes with no ranged weapons beyond a splinter pistol, melee weapons that amount to four varieties of Power Sword, no strategic or tactical bonus beyond the bog-standard 'reroll 1s' aura, and the least-reliable save in the game.


Then you've got the Haemonculus (who also had an excellent older model as well as outstanding conversion possibilities). These are ancient scientists who are unparalelled masters of fleshcraft, bio-mechanical augmentation and arcane technology. They are incredible regenerators and make plans to regrow themselves, should they fall in battle (or to assassination or such), and will also extend this service to others for a price. They also tend to heavily-modify their own bodies, including removing/replacing organs and adding several additional limbs. In battle, they tend to wield all manner of esoteric artefacts, often selecting not the most efficient but the ones that will inflict the greatest suffering and/or the most interesting death to their enemies.

So how does that manifest on the table?

They're S3 T4 blokes who sort of sit around in the middle of their creations, occasionally slapping band-aids onto them. Oh and all his options have been removed so the characters known for their vast variety of weapons and artefacts now all have the exact same item set. But at least that fixed set of weapons is interesting, right? Well let's see, he's got a bog-standard pistol, a Venom Blade with no AP, an Agoniser with -1AP but +2A, and lastly a weapon that does a single Mortal Wound but which he can only make a single attack with every round. Are you as thrilled as I am?


I'm sure someone will argue that these HQs are fine because they're cheap, functional or whatever but that's not the point. They're just so flavourless and above all boring to field. Where are the options? Where's the wargear? Where are all the interesting and esoteric weapons they're supposed to be known for? Where's the technology "so advanced that it resembles magic"?



In a different army we have the Necron Destroyer Lord. This is a model that's suffered heavily from GW randomly changing an army's lore. It used to be that Necron Lords were the leaders of Necron armies, and Destroyer Lords were simply Necron Lords who replaced their legs with jetbikes. Thus, while they shared the same lower bodies as Destroyers, they had no specific connection to them and so would more likely accompany Wraiths (which were also melee-focussed and could match the D. Lords for speed). However, at some point the fluff changed and Destroyer Lords ceased to be the flying version of Necron Lords. Instead, they became insane Daleks who just wanted to exterminate everything that wasn't them. Sigh. As the editions progressed, this change in fluff led to Destroyer Lords increasingly being consigned to only being able to support Destroyer units - despite the fact that Destroyers are ranged units but Destroyer Lords are melee units.

In 8th, Destroyer Lords were already lacking in purpose - being largely outcompeted in melee roles by the CCB and in Destroyer-support roles by a Stratagem. About the only thing they had going for them was the Nanoscarab Casket. It gave them unparalleled regeneration (1d3 wounds in each player's turn), whilst also letting them come back from the dead once per game. With the aid of a stratagem that also did this, the Destroyer Lord could become something of a cockroach. Not especially threatening but very hard to put down. It wasn't much but it was something.

Now though... there's just nothing. The Destroyer Lord isn't good in melee, it isn't good at range (even with artefacts, it's still held back by an abysmal WS3+/BS3+, which other HQs easily outclass), it's no faster than the Scorpekh Lord, which vastly outclasses it in terms of stats and weaponry, whilst providing the exact same bonus.

It just doesn't seem to have any actual purpose anymore.

 vipoid wrote:
As usual, most of the DE HQs.

The Archon (who had a fantastic model in 5th and has always had plentiful conversion opportunities) is the supreme leader of a DE Kabal. They're effectively millennia old vampire-elves who feed on the lives and suffering of others. They're supposed to me masterful strategists and tacticians, with endless layers and webs of plans. Before entering combat, they pick from vast armouries that include the rarest and deadliest weapons in the Dark City.

So how does that manifest on the table?

They're S3 T3 blokes with no ranged weapons beyond a splinter pistol, melee weapons that amount to four varieties of Power Sword, no strategic or tactical bonus beyond the bog-standard 'reroll 1s' aura, and the least-reliable save in the game.


Then you've got the Haemonculus (who also had an excellent older model as well as outstanding conversion possibilities). These are ancient scientists who are unparalelled masters of fleshcraft, bio-mechanical augmentation and arcane technology. They are incredible regenerators and make plans to regrow themselves, should they fall in battle (or to assassination or such), and will also extend this service to others for a price. They also tend to heavily-modify their own bodies, including removing/replacing organs and adding several additional limbs. In battle, they tend to wield all manner of esoteric artefacts, often selecting not the most efficient but the ones that will inflict the greatest suffering and/or the most interesting death to their enemies.

So how does that manifest on the table?

They're S3 T4 blokes who sort of sit around in the middle of their creations, occasionally slapping band-aids onto them. Oh and all his options have been removed so the characters known for their vast variety of weapons and artefacts now all have the exact same item set. But at least that fixed set of weapons is interesting, right? Well let's see, he's got a bog-standard pistol, a Venom Blade with no AP, an Agoniser with -1AP but +2A, and lastly a weapon that does a single Mortal Wound but which he can only make a single attack with every round. Are you as thrilled as I am?


I'm sure someone will argue that these HQs are fine because they're cheap, functional or whatever but that's not the point. They're just so flavourless and above all boring to field. Where are the options? Where's the wargear? Where are all the interesting and esoteric weapons they're supposed to be known for? Where's the technology "so advanced that it resembles magic"?



In a different army we have the Necron Destroyer Lord. This is a model that's suffered heavily from GW randomly changing an army's lore. It used to be that Necron Lords were the leaders of Necron armies, and Destroyer Lords were simply Necron Lords who replaced their legs with jetbikes. Thus, while they shared the same lower bodies as Destroyers, they had no specific connection to them and so would more likely accompany Wraiths (which were also melee-focussed and could match the D. Lords for speed). However, at some point the fluff changed and Destroyer Lords ceased to be the flying version of Necron Lords. Instead, they became insane Daleks who just wanted to exterminate everything that wasn't them. Sigh. As the editions progressed, this change in fluff led to Destroyer Lords increasingly being consigned to only being able to support Destroyer units - despite the fact that Destroyers are ranged units but Destroyer Lords are melee units.

In 8th, Destroyer Lords were already lacking in purpose - being largely outcompeted in melee roles by the CCB and in Destroyer-support roles by a Stratagem. About the only thing they had going for them was the Nanoscarab Casket. It gave them unparalleled regeneration (1d3 wounds in each player's turn), whilst also letting them come back from the dead once per game. With the aid of a stratagem that also did this, the Destroyer Lord could become something of a cockroach. Not especially threatening but very hard to put down. It wasn't much but it was something.

Now though... there's just nothing. The Destroyer Lord isn't good in melee, it isn't good at range (even with artefacts, it's still held back by an abysmal WS3+/BS3+, which other HQs easily outclass), it's no faster than the Scorpekh Lord, which vastly outclasses it in terms of stats and weaponry, whilst providing the exact same bonus.

It just doesn't seem to have any actual purpose anymore.

This generally is what pisses me off the most about the whole direction 40k is going. Everything has to be as simplified as possible, particularly in terms of wargear and upgrades.

When I started Guard back in 4th there was a huge variety of upgrades to make your guys really unique, really "your guys".

I had 3 ranks of Company Commander to choose from, I could then add:
- Power Sword
- Plasma Pistol
- Let's make the Power Sword Mastercrafted
- Chuck some Bionics on (6+ FNP)
- He's very strategic so we'll give him the Medallion Crimson
- To finish him off, why not give him a Trademark Item

The upgrades themselves aren't groundbreaking, but they added flavour to the character. Now it's:

- Power Sword
- Plasma Pistol

Why? Why trim down the armoury so much?

 Valkyrie wrote:

This generally is what pisses me off the most about the whole direction 40k is going. Everything has to be as simplified as possible, particularly in terms of wargear and upgrades.

When I started Guard back in 4th there was a huge variety of upgrades to make your guys really unique, really "your guys".

I had 3 ranks of Company Commander to choose from, I could then add:
- Power Sword
- Plasma Pistol
- Let's make the Power Sword Mastercrafted
- Chuck some Bionics on (6+ FNP)
- He's very strategic so we'll give him the Medallion Crimson
- To finish him off, why not give him a Trademark Item

The upgrades themselves aren't groundbreaking, but they added flavour to the character. Now it's:

- Power Sword
- Plasma Pistol

Why? Why trim down the armoury so much?

Oh I absolutely agree. I loved the old wargear tables.

I think the weirdest thing is that this seems to have been done under the no-model, no-rules policy. And yet at the same time we've got all this stuff like artefacts, warlord traits, master upgrades, sometimes stratagem upgrades etc.. I still don't understand why it's absolutely essential that a model's plasma pistol be modelled, yet it's fine that none of the other stuff is ever modelled.

Especially since these relics and strats generally have a much bigger impact on a character than their wargear does.

Captain with a power sword or chainsword?
Captain with a chainsword or Teeth of Terra?
It's silly.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Everything has to be as simplified as possible, particularly in terms of wargear and upgrades.

I'd argue it's not simplified at all. If anything it's more convoluted than ever.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Why? Why trim down the armoury so much?

Because of the minis. No model/no rule, like a brain tumour, has taken hold and looks inoperable. It's pressing against their spine, limiting the flow of creative juices.

Simplified in the sense that you can only give your units equipments that come from the box. Since most of the characters' kits don't include alternative arms most of the current HQs don't have many choices in their wargear, typically they have no choice at all. Even those who used to have tons of options, like drukhari ones.

 Blackie wrote:
Simplified in the sense that you can only give your units equipments that come from the box. Since most of the characters' kits don't include alternative arms most of the current HQs don't have many choices in their wargear, typically they have no choice at all. Even those who used to have tons of options, like drukhari ones.

its still baffling as in case of the DE its an easy upsell as most of the pre-9th options came in the respective troop box for the hq

All tanks. I like tanks, but GW's either decided tanks need to be universally terrible or made them all universally terrible accidentally, because the damage creep in 8th/9th has left them all feeling incredibly fragile on top of getting almost no stratagem support.

Kanz and Carnifexes. Kanz suffered horribly from the transition from AV to T/W (and GW's bizarre insistence that no grot shall ever benefit from a rule), and weren't exactly setting the world on fire at the best of times. I've got a couple dozen of the baby dreads, but I'm not sure when they'll next see the light of day. I'd give an honorable mention to the stompa, here, but it was only good once, and that was just because of a typo in the FW kustom one's point cost.

Carnifexes are just sad right now. They're either hitting on 5s or wounding the tanks that the codex still talks about them "slicing in half with a single blow" on 5s, all for the princely average of about 3 wounds done per combat. They're basically a dreadnought that takes +1 Damage from anything but bolters, has -2 WS, and has a bonus -1 BS just for fun.

Just another vote for Howling Banshees and their leader Jain Zar. Absolutely iconic unit that actually got a new model in the last decade...and GW basically keeping their datasheet the same for many editions coupled with the power creep in the game ahs made them useless. Basic troop models having the same or more attacks has grown really sad.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
All tanks. I like tanks, but GW's either decided tanks need to be universally terrible or made them all universally terrible accidentally, because the damage creep in 8th/9th has left them all feeling incredibly fragile on top of getting almost no stratagem support.

I wouldn't say all tanks are universally terrible. Mine do ok, and things like PBCs see plenty of use. I think most tanks problems come down to GW's inability to price things right: most tanks are too expensive, and most of the things that kill tanks the best are too cheap.

Probably Captain Sicarius. Love him but you're just fishing for 6s in melee.

Uriel Ventris has kinda taken over now.

die toten hosen wrote:
Robute Girlyman.

waste of 340 points but i love the model and the overkill his melee can do. he brings a lot but takes up so many points in any reasonably competitive list that could be spent elsewhere.

380 bro

 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
Robute Girlyman.

waste of 340 points but i love the model and the overkill his melee can do. he brings a lot but takes up so many points in any reasonably competitive list that could be spent elsewhere.

380 bro

makes it hurt even more lol

Haven't played in a while, so I may very well be wrong here, but general second to the "IG armour" and specifically the Salamander line.

I don't know why I love the things so much - they're Chimeras that trade transport capacity and wargear options (such as they are) for a Scout move (or two Autocannon Scout Sentinels smashed together and given treads and a Heavy Bolter in place of one of the Autocannons). That's...that's it.1x Autocannon, 1x Heavy Bolter, options for a Hunter-Killer or pintle mount, no special rules beyond the Scout move, no offensive buffs so you can unleash hell once they're in position, no defensive bonuses, no real stratagem support, no wargear, and no choice in main armaments. Their model has been OOP for Emperor only knows how long, there's exactly one conversion kit I've found so far, and I don't think they sold that well so what little looking I've done on secondhand sites turns up far more Green Dragon SM Scouts than it does vehicles. About the only upsides are that they cost ~15-20 points less than a similarly armed Chimera or a pair of AC+HK Scout Sentinels, and have Vehicle Squadrons so they're more efficient uses of FA slots (because, you know, we IG players are just spoiled for choice there...).

And yet, I've theorycrafted more than one list based entirely around them and the heavily converted "squad" I'm working on are the most fun and satisfaction I've had out of the hobby in a long time...

Heavy Weapon Teams, specifically the old metal ones. I love the look of the wheeled heavy weapons over the current tripod ones. I use a Lascannon HWS my Pretorian army and a Heavy Bolter HWS in my Tallarn because I love the look no mater how bad they are.

Space Marine Scouts.

I have 3 variants. Bolters, pistols and knives, and snipers. 1 wound, 4+ save, and elite status make them a waste of points, but they look the most like SWAT/SEAL teams, and I made a point to give them all Nigt Vision Goggles.

 Salted Diamond wrote:
Heavy Weapon Teams, specifically the old metal ones. I love the look of the wheeled heavy weapons over the current tripod ones. I use a Lascannon HWS my Pretorian army and a Heavy Bolter HWS in my Tallarn because I love the look no mater how bad they are.

The Steel Legion Heavy Bolter teams are great, though a pain to photograph.

KX139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour.

Supremely cool model, supremely bad rules.

The good old bloodthirster. One of the most iconic models in the game, but rather squishy right now and outshined by the other greater demons in most lists. You probably won't ever take one over a keeper of secrets.

They either need to cost less or do more/be more tough to kill.

Lictors. They're supposed to be Tyranid assassins, but they can't kill (or get near) anything more threatening than a guardsmen.

For me it tanks of all stripes, they're all universally described in the lore as being steel leviathans capable of laying down some serious hate, yet when they show up on the table top, its too be splattered by a couple of guy with comparable or superior weapons. When the tank's main gun fires, it should make an impression. A demolisher Cannon, or a battle cannon should be impressive weapons for putting down both enemy armor and enemy infantry. Yet it often feels like I'm gimping myself for bringing my Gunwagon or my Vindicator. The mass of AT weapons that can efficiently kill tanks is increasing with each Codex, and this results in tanks that are in 8th Edition codexes feeling very out of date by comparison to newer 9th edition codexes.

I personally should be very afraid for any heavy armor I bring when I have to look down the barrel of a Tau Railgun or Imperial Guard Vanquisher Cannon, I quite frankly, mostly just see a slightly buffed Lascannon. I should have to seriously consider the threat to my heavy infantry when a tank's main gun is pointed at them. Hell, I once remember staring down an Azzy Castle when I brought a Stompa (8th edition kustom stompa rules to make my Kromlech one usable) I killed a handful of marines and in turn took 60 damage from a volley of Hellblasters. Pointing serious artillery at large formations of troops should be dangerous for them if they're all bunched together.

panzerfront14 wrote:
For me it tanks of all stripes, they're all universally described in the lore as being steel leviathans capable of laying down some serious hate, yet when they show up on the table top, its too be splattered by a couple of guy with comparable or superior weapons. When the tank's main gun fires, it should make an impression. A demolisher Cannon, or a battle cannon should be impressive weapons for putting down both enemy armor and enemy infantry. Yet it often feels like I'm gimping myself for bringing my Gunwagon or my Vindicator. The mass of AT weapons that can efficiently kill tanks is increasing with each Codex, and this results in tanks that are in 8th Edition codexes feeling very out of date by comparison to newer 9th edition codexes.

I personally should be very afraid for any heavy armor I bring when I have to look down the barrel of a Tau Railgun or Imperial Guard Vanquisher Cannon, I quite frankly, mostly just see a slightly buffed Lascannon. I should have to seriously consider the threat to my heavy infantry when a tank's main gun is pointed at them. Hell, I once remember staring down an Azzy Castle when I brought a Stompa (8th edition kustom stompa rules to make my Kromlech one usable) I killed a handful of marines and in turn took 60 damage from a volley of Hellblasters. Pointing serious artillery at large formations of troops should be dangerous for them if they're all bunched together.

This is one thing I really miss about templates. The battle cannon/Demolishers large blast used to scare opponents as they had the power to delete whole squads with one shot. Scatter meant that you might whiff, but you could also scatter on to other units if they were too close.