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Goose LeChance wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

Goose LeChance wrote:
Cell phones are society. Got it.

And Star Wars is my religion.

Fun fact, that comic consists of 3 panels. The first one? it literally goes:

person A: "we should adress the issues of capitalism"

person B (the one that says yet you live in a society): "yet you have a cellphone".

Trust me, your comment is very reminiscent of that first pannel.

Yeah, you're really addressing the issues of Capitalism by posting memes on reddit and twitter.

Bold of you to assume I don't mail people pipebombs and Anthrax in my free time

deano2099 wrote:


If they wanted to go after someone maliciously, why would they go after a fair and even handed review of WH+ that was very positive in places, rather than the videos calling it a rip-off, scam, money-grab, etc?

Best guess? The employees filing those copyright claims were given broad directions to flag anything displaying Games Workshop's content, and MWM's video reproduced some WH+ footage for discussion.

Goose LeChance wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

Goose LeChance wrote:
Cell phones are society. Got it.

And Star Wars is my religion.

Fun fact, that comic consists of 3 panels. The first one? it literally goes:

person A: "we should adress the issues of capitalism"

person B (the one that says yet you live in a society): "yet you have a cellphone".

Trust me, your comment is very reminiscent of that first pannel.

Yeah, you're really addressing the issues of Capitalism by posting memes on reddit and twitter.

You missed the point so hard I don't know where to start.

No I didn't. That comic boils down to: "Don't call me a hypocrite"

Stop buying products from companies you disagree with morally. They aren't going to suddenly behave themselves if all you do is complain on twitter while watching Avengers Endgame in the theatre.

Goose LeChance wrote:
No I didn't. That comic boils down to: "Don't call me a hypocrite"

.

No it doesn't. What it's saying is people trying to change things they disagree with shouldn't be criticised for not changing literally everything in their life all at once, and that people who try and rag on those people for not changing everything in their life are condescending dicks.

Or, to TLDR even that, don't criticise people for trying.

 Azreal13 wrote:


Or, to TLDR even that, don't criticise people for trying.

Are they really trying?

EDIT: You know what? That doesn't help either. Nevermind.

3D printers go brrrrrr....

I don’t see a positive outcome for GW going forward. Printing technology has improved dramatically in the last 7 years, and prices have gotten down to the level it makes sense to print your own models. GW should find a way to embrace this tech instead of trying to suppress it.

As soon as printers aren't their own hobby. Which they still very much are, you need to be into adjusting your own plates and whatnot, and willing to give up room space for the thing.

3D printing works for the one reason that GW prices are inflated as they are

of a new 2k points 40k army costs you 600-800€, buying a 3D printer despite it is a hobby on its own, is a no brainer for that single army alone

Even the cheapest possible 40k army, Custodes Jetbikes, costs more than a decent Resin Printer, including files and Resin.


Compared to other wargames?
I get a 6 point SAGA Army with options for 40-60€
I need to print 5 such armies to make a printer worth it and having the problem that Files available for that time period are not really available or just bad and no were near the quality of the plastic minis (for the very reason that no one is doing them because you cannot compete with cheap HIPS models)

I can make the Custodes Jetbike Army with 90€ Mantic models, add another 30€ for 3rd party bits to make them WYSIWYG.


It is GW and their price policy alone that keeps 3D printing profitable for everyone because no matter what it is, GW will always be more expensive
They created their own enemy here

 kodos wrote:
3D printing works for the one reason that GW prices are inflated as they are

of a new 2k points 40k army costs you 600-800€, buying a 3D printer despite it is a hobby on its own, is a no brainer for that single army alone

Even the cheapest possible 40k army, Custodes Jetbikes, costs more than a decent Resin Printer, including files and Resin.


Compared to other wargames?
I get a 6 point SAGA Army with options for 40-60€
I need to print 5 such armies to make a printer worth it and having the problem that Files available for that time period are not really available or just bad and no were near the quality of the plastic minis (for the very reason that no one is doing them because you cannot compete with cheap HIPS models)

I can make the Custodes Jetbike Army with 90€ Mantic models, add another 30€ for 3rd party bits to make them WYSIWYG.


It is GW and their price policy alone that keeps 3D printing profitable for everyone because no matter what it is, GW will always be more expensive
They created their own enemy here

If they operated on a lower sales and lower cost model, I doubt they'd have the market dominance or be relevant enough to have a need for 3d printing. Success breeds competition, it's just the competition are the consumers now.

of course if customers out-compete the producer, they can now enjoy playing a dead game with no Official Rules, something most 40k players find terrifying.

Dudeface wrote:
If they operated on a lower sales and lower cost model, I doubt they'd have the market dominance or be relevant enough to have a need for 3d printing. Success breeds competition, it's just the competition are the consumers now.

I don't know if I understand what you want to say, if GW would not sell 5 Cavalry models in a Boxes for 50€ but than 10 models in a box for 30€, they would not have the market dominance they have?

I mean the need for 3D printing is not there because GW is the dominant wargame, but because that wargame is so expensive

if the standard 40k army would cost 200€, no one would bother to buy a 3D printer for 250€ to print that army, no matter how dominant the game is

 kodos wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
If they operated on a lower sales and lower cost model, I doubt they'd have the market dominance or be relevant enough to have a need for 3d printing. Success breeds competition, it's just the competition are the consumers now.

I don't know if I understand what you want to say, if GW would not sell 5 Cavalry models in a Boxes for 50€ but than 10 models in a box for 30€, they would not have the market dominance they have?

I mean the need for 3D printing is not there because GW is the dominant wargame, but because that wargame is so expensive

if the standard 40k army would cost 200€, no one would bother to buy a 3D printer for 250€ to print that army, no matter how dominant the game is

To play devils advocate for a bit:

Producing and selling a miniature involves several people, companies a structure and money, 3d printing has the potential to nuke it all out of existence.

Just because something is cheaper we need to think about the overall picture and the consequences.

 NAVARRO wrote:

 kodos wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
If they operated on a lower sales and lower cost model, I doubt they'd have the market dominance or be relevant enough to have a need for 3d printing. Success breeds competition, it's just the competition are the consumers now.

I don't know if I understand what you want to say, if GW would not sell 5 Cavalry models in a Boxes for 50€ but than 10 models in a box for 30€, they would not have the market dominance they have?

I mean the need for 3D printing is not there because GW is the dominant wargame, but because that wargame is so expensive

if the standard 40k army would cost 200€, no one would bother to buy a 3D printer for 250€ to print that army, no matter how dominant the game is

To play devils advocate for a bit:

Producing and selling a miniature involves several people, companies a structure and money, 3d printing has the potential to nuke it all out of existence.

Just because something is cheaper we need to think about the overall picture and the consequences.

Well, that or change the market in much the same way it happened with the music industry, I guess.

Not the whole Industry, but GW.

Because it is not cheaper than most of the industry, it is just cheaper than 1 company, although it is the dominant one

More like the German Music Industry thought a pointless war to ban Music Videos on Youtube were everyone else already took advantage of it

 Spacemanvic wrote:
3D printers go brrrrrr....

I don’t see a positive outcome for GW going forward. Printing technology has improved dramatically in the last 7 years, and prices have gotten down to the level it makes sense to print your own models. GW should find a way to embrace this tech instead of trying to suppress it.

A) GW is not suppressing 3D prints. Far from it. The only two things is that they are are doing is:
1. They very ineffectively try to stop criminals to steal their intellectual property, but this is independent of the production method used, be it recasting, 3D prints or sculpts that are too identical to GW originals.
2. There is a trend that some units lose options that neccessitate the purchase of multiple boxes to field a single unit with a certain configuration.

B) GW is not embracing 3D prints (other than internal prototyping), either. But they have good reasons for it.
1) The technology is not there to mass produce anything cost efficiently, yet. So any attempt to start a print-on-demand service is not viable for the forseeable future.
2) Any attempt to give STL files to the consumers will destroy a sizeable part of the current business model. So this is not viable either.

C) Technology changes, so 3D printing might become an economical viable alternative to plastic injection. But there is no guarantee that it will. SLA printing has a long way to go. Even the 3000 Euro machines cannot effortlessly and safely used by a 12 year old.

D) GW is aware that 3D printing has the potential to disrupt their business. Their reply is to step into the animation business, usimg their IP in different ways than miniature games.

 kodos wrote:
Not the whole Industry, but GW.

Because it is not cheaper than most of the industry, it is just cheaper than 1 company, although it is the dominant one

More like the German Music Industry thought a pointless war to ban Music Videos on Youtube were everyone else already took advantage of it

Yes and no, because "the whole industry" also encompasses all the boutique mini stores that sell resin minis, the personalized D&D, the regular D&D minis and everything else, not just GW and historicals.

Also, there's just the sheer joy of immediate gratification, where you download a file and print it in a couple hours and you have the mini you wanted, not just the idea of something being cheaper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vovin wrote:
1. They very ineffectively try to stop criminals to steal their intellectual property, but this is independent of the production method used, be it recasting, 3D prints or sculpts that are too identical to GW originals.

Well... "criminals", "steal" and "intellectual property", at any rate.

1) The technology is not there to mass produce anything cost efficiently, yet. So any attempt to start a print-on-demand service is not viable for the forseeable future.

... hm. Do you know what a printer farm is? Have you taken a look at Etsy lately? Do you know what Shapeways is? Because it's a business model for a lot of people already. Some KS have also fulfilled their pledges with printed miniatures.

 kodos wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
If they operated on a lower sales and lower cost model, I doubt they'd have the market dominance or be relevant enough to have a need for 3d printing. Success breeds competition, it's just the competition are the consumers now.

I don't know if I understand what you want to say, if GW would not sell 5 Cavalry models in a Boxes for 50€ but than 10 models in a box for 30€, they would not have the market dominance they have?

I mean the need for 3D printing is not there because GW is the dominant wargame, but because that wargame is so expensive

if the standard 40k army would cost 200€, no one would bother to buy a 3D printer for 250€ to print that army, no matter how dominant the game is

Games workshop have the luxury of being top of the pile because they have a lot of resources (read, money). If they suddenly sell you less items at a lower cost, they have less money. If they have less money they can release less stuff or rather less risky items.

Eventually they'd just be "another wargames company" because they don't have the financial clout to force the marketing, brand recognition and coverage they do now.

If they sold twice the amount at 3/5 of the cost, you're spending 3/10 of what yoube otherwise spent, they likely wouldn't cover the development costs, if they did all it would do is encourage them to make safe units. I.e. space marines.

This is true, but on the other hand they are on the best way to price themselves out of the market which will also result in less money

At the price point were it is easier and cheaper for people to make similar quality at home, the argument that same sales at a lower price result in a loss falls flat, as you are not going to sell the same amount at the high price as well

 Albertorius wrote:
Well... "criminals", "steal" and "intellectual property", at any rate.

Not even close to what you're implying. Flat out theft. Doesn't matter if you're "sticking it to the man" when you're actively stealing their product and redistributing it.

... hm. Do you know what a printer farm is? Have you taken a look at Etsy lately? Do you know what Shapeways is? Because it's a business model for a lot of people already. Some KS have also fulfilled their pledges with printed miniatures.

Both of those are stores that host creators. How many individual creators are on Etsy or Shapeways? Are they only producing 3d printed models or do they also have multiple other types of products available? Are they producing these models in the UK despite the higher costs or are they a worldwide network of lots of smaller creators making lots of different things? What's the output of these individuals? Are they producing as much product as GW?

Games Workshop wants out of the tabletop wargaming business. That much is clear.

When it comes to the physical product they manufacture, what they want is to sell expensive premium models for gamers to adorn their PC gaming rigs with.

Right now they are casting around for which form of product their IP can be most effectively monetized in as they move into the next phase of their business.

They don't want to be a "wargames company". They want to sell models. They are actively rewriting all of their rules in order to better facilitate the purchase of large and expensive "centrepiece" models (hence the 'hero hammer' shift in game design). Likely that is also in part because current 3d printers cannot compete with them at that level, yet.

 Gert wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
Well... "criminals", "steal" and "intellectual property", at any rate.

Not even close to what you're implying. Flat out theft. Doesn't matter if you're "sticking it to the man" when you're actively stealing their product and redistributing it.

Not really, no, unless they're literally stealing files that GW did, or scanning miniatures that GW made. That's not the case in maybe 99.98% of the cases. So the stealing is flat out wrong (also, you know, the usual "downloading is not theft" because it can't be).

So what they're doing is copying at most, and it's not even that in most cases, because what they're actually doing is usually mimicking the style.

And well, about GW's IP, well... it's funny because their IP already did the above, namely copying/mimicking stuff from everywhere else.

So... yeah.

... hm. Do you know what a printer farm is? Have you taken a look at Etsy lately? Do you know what Shapeways is? Because it's a business model for a lot of people already. Some KS have also fulfilled their pledges with printed miniatures.

1) Both of those are stores that host creators.
2) How many individual creators are on Etsy or Shapeways?
3) Are they only producing 3d printed models or do they also have multiple other types of products available?
4) Are they producing these models in the UK despite the higher costs or are they a worldwide network of lots of smaller creators making lots of different things?
5) What's the output of these individuals?
6) Are they producing as much product as GW?

1) Yes. I fail to see your point.
2) Hundreds? Maybe thousands.
3) It depends. Some do their own models and sell stls and prints. Some license out designs and print them. Some do a bit of everything. It feels like something you could investigate.
4) Distributed production. That's what 3d printing brings to the table, you know.
5) Maybe ask them.
6) This last one is an immense red herring... localized production vs distributed will never have the same output individually, only combined. Also, how does it matter at all? For a business model to be viable it doesn't need to fit inside GW's box.

 Albertorius wrote:

1) The technology is not there to mass produce anything cost efficiently, yet. So any attempt to start a print-on-demand service is not viable for the forseeable future.

... hm. Do you know what a printer farm is? Have you taken a look at Etsy lately? Do you know what Shapeways is? Because it's a business model for a lot of people already. Some KS have also fulfilled their pledges with printed miniatures.

just comparing it, most sales are made on release weekend, so if you need 3 days to print the army that you are going to sell on release, if you get 100 pre-orders you need 20 printers to make those within a reasonable amount of time (the usual 14 day pre-order window)

1000 pre-orders and you are at 200 printers, which is too much to handle them alone so you need to hire people to keep it up
10.000 pre-orders on a world wide sale and you are 2000 printers the get the pre-orders done in 15 days

so lets make longer pre-order period, 2 months and you just need 500 printers, but this also means you cannot do anything else in those 2 months than print the pre-orders for 1 release


yes, this is a business model but not for high demand spike sales but for low demand niche products that are not selling enough to make them with something else

same way as print on demand for books in a copyshop only works as long as the demand is low, with a word-wide release of a bestseller you cannot do that any more

For the most part the other companies dont have that many minis that can say they hit the 1000's mark.

Its a small industry business outside GW. Not sure If they can cope with the new tech that simply is eroding the traditional production.

Some already closing blaming Brexit or covid etc... but it really is not that simple and 3d has a big part in the reducing sales numbers... IMO.

Like I said cheaper and more convenient to clients now may well prove to be death sentence for many of the current companies and traditional projects.

GW has the money to dodge bullets.

 NAVARRO wrote:
For the most part the other companies dont have that many minis that can say they hit the 1000's mark.

Its a small industry business outside GW. Not sure If they can cope with the new tech that simply is eroding the traditional production.

Some already closing blaming Brexit or covid etc... but it really is not that simple and 3d has a big part in the reducing sales numbers... IMO.

Like I said cheaper and more convenient to clients now may well prove to be death sentence for many of the current companies and traditional projects.

GW has the money to dodge bullets.

The cheaper and convenient clients already existed, it was never a problem before and isn't now. The problem now are the fact people are making the 1:1 knock off models.

You've been able to buy mantic or w/e for years if you wanted cheaper proxies, yet nobody does.

Dudeface wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
For the most part the other companies dont have that many minis that can say they hit the 1000's mark.

Its a small industry business outside GW. Not sure If they can cope with the new tech that simply is eroding the traditional production.

Some already closing blaming Brexit or covid etc... but it really is not that simple and 3d has a big part in the reducing sales numbers... IMO.

Like I said cheaper and more convenient to clients now may well prove to be death sentence for many of the current companies and traditional projects.

GW has the money to dodge bullets.

The cheaper and convenient clients already existed, it was never a problem before and isn't now. The problem now are the fact people are making the 1:1 knock off models.

You've been able to buy mantic or w/e for years if you wanted cheaper proxies, yet nobody does.

Incorrect sorry, the cheaper and more convenient was there as an alternative product produced in the same traditional manner, involving agents like casters, production, distribution etc. The 3d and file distribution is new and rends those agents and companies extinct. See the difference?

It wasn't a problem because if the clients went to alternative competitors the money would still be injected in the industry has we know and thats healthy. With 3d the traditional services are not required anymore and money goes towards the 3d artists and their portals or farms etc. To invest in more of that. Which is fine if thats what people want.

GW knows how hard will be control file distribution since theres no structure to trace anything. Its a file done by 1guy no one knows anything about and given to X number of other guys via email.

 NAVARRO wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
For the most part the other companies dont have that many minis that can say they hit the 1000's mark.

Its a small industry business outside GW. Not sure If they can cope with the new tech that simply is eroding the traditional production.

Some already closing blaming Brexit or covid etc... but it really is not that simple and 3d has a big part in the reducing sales numbers... IMO.

Like I said cheaper and more convenient to clients now may well prove to be death sentence for many of the current companies and traditional projects.

GW has the money to dodge bullets.

The cheaper and convenient clients already existed, it was never a problem before and isn't now. The problem now are the fact people are making the 1:1 knock off models.

You've been able to buy mantic or w/e for years if you wanted cheaper proxies, yet nobody does.

Incorrect sorry, the cheaper and more convenient was there as an alternative product produced in the same traditional manner, involving agents like casters, production, distribution etc. The 3d and file distribution is new and rends those agents and companies extinct. See the difference?

It wasn't a problem because if the clients went to alternative competitors the money would still be injected in the industry has we know and thats healthy. With 3d the traditional services are not required anymore and money goes towards the 3d artists and their portals or farms etc. To invest in more of that. Which is fine if thats what people want.

GW knows how hard will be control file distribution since theres no structure to trace anything. Its a file done by 1guy no one knows anything about and given to X number of other guys via email.

And to the vast majority of hobbyists without 3d printers? Cheaper proxies still exist and aren't used.

Dudeface wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
For the most part the other companies dont have that many minis that can say they hit the 1000's mark.

Its a small industry business outside GW. Not sure If they can cope with the new tech that simply is eroding the traditional production.

Some already closing blaming Brexit or covid etc... but it really is not that simple and 3d has a big part in the reducing sales numbers... IMO.

Like I said cheaper and more convenient to clients now may well prove to be death sentence for many of the current companies and traditional projects.

GW has the money to dodge bullets.

The cheaper and convenient clients already existed, it was never a problem before and isn't now. The problem now are the fact people are making the 1:1 knock off models.

You've been able to buy mantic or w/e for years if you wanted cheaper proxies, yet nobody does.

Incorrect sorry, the cheaper and more convenient was there as an alternative product produced in the same traditional manner, involving agents like casters, production, distribution etc. The 3d and file distribution is new and rends those agents and companies extinct. See the difference?

It wasn't a problem because if the clients went to alternative competitors the money would still be injected in the industry has we know and thats healthy. With 3d the traditional services are not required anymore and money goes towards the 3d artists and their portals or farms etc. To invest in more of that. Which is fine if thats what people want.

GW knows how hard will be control file distribution since theres no structure to trace anything. Its a file done by 1guy no one knows anything about and given to X number of other guys via email.

And to the vast majority of hobbyists without 3d printers? Cheaper proxies still exist and aren't used.

I think we have different points here. Im talking about the potential negative impact 3d can have on the Industry as we know it, and you are saying people will not use proxies on GW games?

But the vast majority today may well be the minority tomorrow if the 3d takes over, I mean if the traditional companies close down and you have less of that and more of STL files? Pushing people to go that route.
GW will be fine but imagine they "adapt" and stop producing minis and just sell the files for you to print...

I would like to point out that Im a traditional inclined sculptor & collector so Im biased towards the maintenance of some kind of traditional presence in the future.

 NAVARRO wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
For the most part the other companies dont have that many minis that can say they hit the 1000's mark.

Its a small industry business outside GW. Not sure If they can cope with the new tech that simply is eroding the traditional production.

Some already closing blaming Brexit or covid etc... but it really is not that simple and 3d has a big part in the reducing sales numbers... IMO.

Like I said cheaper and more convenient to clients now may well prove to be death sentence for many of the current companies and traditional projects.

GW has the money to dodge bullets.

The cheaper and convenient clients already existed, it was never a problem before and isn't now. The problem now are the fact people are making the 1:1 knock off models.

You've been able to buy mantic or w/e for years if you wanted cheaper proxies, yet nobody does.

Incorrect sorry, the cheaper and more convenient was there as an alternative product produced in the same traditional manner, involving agents like casters, production, distribution etc. The 3d and file distribution is new and rends those agents and companies extinct. See the difference?

It wasn't a problem because if the clients went to alternative competitors the money would still be injected in the industry has we know and thats healthy. With 3d the traditional services are not required anymore and money goes towards the 3d artists and their portals or farms etc. To invest in more of that. Which is fine if thats what people want.

GW knows how hard will be control file distribution since theres no structure to trace anything. Its a file done by 1guy no one knows anything about and given to X number of other guys via email.

And to the vast majority of hobbyists without 3d printers? Cheaper proxies still exist and aren't used.

I think we have different points here. Im talking about the potential negative impact 3d can have on the Industry as we know it, and you are saying people will not use proxies on GW games?

But the vast majority today may well be the minority tomorrow if the 3d takes over, I mean if the traditional companies close down and you have less of that and more of STL files? Pushing people to go that route.
GW will be fine but imagine they "adapt" and stop producing minis and just sell the files for you to print...

I would like to point out that Im a traditional inclined sculptor & collector so Im biased towards the maintenance of some kind of traditional presence in the future.

Oh I agree the damage potential is there but I think a lot of people over sell and hype up the current 3d printing era whilst not realising - it's not really ready for mass consumption as a normalised household item. It's still a niche of a niche market and even then requires the want to either proxy or be willing to rip off GW for it to impact 40k.