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2022/11/08 13:15:49
Subject: Re:Army Painter product teaser - It's Not Contrast!
My comments were (I thought obviously ) referring to colours where we either know for sure or have a good idea what they looked like, not so much colours from 150+ years ago.
For each colour you can probably find a pages long discussion on a historic modelling forum about what it looked like (either for sure, or estimations), what variations might have existed, what options are available from different paint manufacturers to represent that colour and even what mixes you might use to recreate that colour yourself!
The comment was simply made (paraphrased) that Vallejo created their good reputation from recreation of historical colours and the scale modelling side where the only important thing is that colours are "historically accurate".
That was the comment made, and I am simply stating my opinion, based on frequenting scale modelling forums, that, no, I don't think Vallejo are well loved for recreating historic colours, and that's IMO not how they became popular or gained their good reputation. We're talking about a community that will buy 5 different variations of a colour and mix another 5 before deciding on which 1 option they use to paint their 1 model
You could of course have a discussion on every single colour in their range and what it supposed to represent and what we know about that colour and blah blah blah I don't care, I was making a broad statement in opposition to another broad statement in a thread about a completely unrelated product line from a completely different manufacturer. I don't think Vallejo rose to prominence in the historic scale modelling scene on the back of their reproduction of historically accurate colours, which was the theory posited.
Its like a cone of effect, the further you recede, the wider it gets.
This refers to both authenticity of colour information and authenticity of colour itself.
Even in the modern age nobody should be rivet count exact colours as that can and will change.
Let me give you a modern example in a related field. If you want to paint a house you buy your paint from one source, I am not talking about just one colour though obvious, or even one brand of that colour, again obvious, but from ONE SHOP. Why is this? Because paint from different batches from the same factory will have minor changes, it's a quirk about mixing paint, it is never exactly the same.
The effect is subtle almost minimal but if you are unlucky you can have same colour and brand paint looking different on a wall, and because they are adjacent wall areas you notice, even if you wouldn't if it was a different part of the same building.
Now this is a more extreme example as domestic emulsion paint is thick and thickly mixed, evenness cannot be guaranteed. Textile dyes are more precise, even so you still have some fluctuation and at the scale military procurement works on it can be significant if subtle.
What is a fair test is does this colour lie within the deviation range of a particular colour chosen by the faction. Not, does this paint match this individual item exactly, after all that Olive Drab tunic provenanced to be in Nam during Tet '68 might not be the exact same colour as this one, and we are talking about base colouration here, not wear or dirt or anything else.
This deviation is fairly tight in the modern age, but does exist, then it gets a whole lot wider as we look back in time.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2022/11/10 01:48:59
Subject: Re:Army Painter product teaser - It's Not Contrast!
The Napoleonic French uniform is harder still, There are existing uniforms but they are rare, and it is unlikely you will be able to get permission to do any destructive tests on any credible sample to find the exact dye used chemically. However that matters somewhat less as this used a per-modern dying method and production process, uniforms were hand dyed and the dye hand mixed, variation will occur. The reduced certainty of the colour palette doesn't result in reduced authenticity due to a widening of the historical definition of a Napoleonic French soldiers uniform colour.
Mind you, there are uniforms from this period that are even more spectacularly rare than French Uniform coats.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2022/11/10 03:47:35
Subject: Army Painter product teaser - It's Not Contrast!
The Napoleonic French uniform is harder still, There are existing uniforms but they are rare, and it is unlikely you will be able to get permission to do any destructive tests on any credible sample to find the exact dye used chemically. However that matters somewhat less as this used a per-modern dying method and production process, uniforms were hand dyed and the dye hand mixed, variation will occur. The reduced certainty of the colour palette doesn't result in reduced authenticity due to a widening of the historical definition of a Napoleonic French soldiers uniform colour.
Mind you, there are uniforms from this period that are even more spectacularly rare than French Uniform coats.
Indeed, but that doesn't remove my point. We have multiple ways to get a reasonable colour palette for gunpowder era uniforms, from art, surviving uniforms, records etc.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2022/11/12 09:21:32
Subject: Re:Army Painter product teaser - It's Not Contrast!
Anyway, on the topic of Army Painter (ya know, the topic of this thread ).
My previous post about the "Meet Goober" video was met with crickets, so here's the Meet Dana Howl and Meet Average Joe videos! If anyone has the endurance to watch these, please let the rest of us know if there's any actual news related to the paint ranges, lol.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/11/12 09:41:31
2022/12/19 20:14:55
Subject: Re:Army Painter product teaser - It's Not Contrast!
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2022/12/19 20:48:26
Subject: Army Painter product teaser - It's Not Contrast!
Exciting as a concept, but needs some better examples... the Broadsword sample model there looks ok, but the gold and bronze look blotchy and flat.
And, yeah, the 'wait 24 hours' mentioned quickly as an aside before rushing straight into the next comment in the hope you won't notice it is a little disappointing.
2022/12/19 21:42:15
Subject: Army Painter product teaser - It's Not Contrast!
This is the first metallic speed/contrast/etc paint to hit the market, right?
I guess the big questions will be if any of the other paint companies introduce one, how well it will perform, and if it also needs significant drying time.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
2022/12/20 04:55:22
Subject: Army Painter product teaser - It's Not Contrast!
I couldn't help but notice that the sample models they are working on in the video look to be pre-shaded - either drybrushed or pre-washed with a grey to gibe more definition.
Not the dwarf at the early part of the video, but the knight at 1:55 looks like he's been "slap-chop" drybrushed white over black, and the chaos warrior at 2:22 looks like he's had a grey wash (or white drybrush over grey primer).
The grainy look might be due to the drybrushing?
Doing that will certainly help the thinned metallic paints show more shading!
A 24 hour cure time makes these completely useless to me. Much faster to do a normal paint of Metallic, let it fully dry, wash and let it fully dry, then next step...
I can't be the only person that thinks they look like gak?
Grainy, uneven, lots of the shots don't even read as metallic and the ones that do are grainy metal paint instead of actual metal.
Some of the shots looked okay when the paint was being applied, so when it was still wet and hadn't settled, but none of the final images looked good.
Tannhauser42 wrote: This is the first metallic speed/contrast/etc paint to hit the market, right?
I guess the big questions will be if any of the other paint companies introduce one, how well it will perform, and if it also needs significant drying time.
I'd say there's a reason metallic contrasts don't exist... it's a solution to a question no one asked When it comes to metallics, it makes more sense to have the metallic underneath and then wash a regular paint over the top, not the other way around, so from a speed painting perspective the best metallics are the ones with good coverage and a smooth finish.
Sorry I'm probably being too negative... maybe when I see them in future when other painters get their hands on them they might impress me, but this video leaves me thoroughly unimpressed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/20 06:38:45
2022/12/20 07:01:02
Subject: Army Painter product teaser - It's Not Contrast!
Not seeing any appeal at all, TBH. I use Vallejo metal colors, which are similarly easy to apply, and look significantly better, and yes, as said above, it makes more sense to shade or tint it afterwards.
2022/12/20 13:45:48
Subject: Re:Army Painter product teaser - It's Not Contrast!
Those metallics looked like utter arse. The Hoplite Gold might be decent with some suitable prep and subsequent washing (once it eventually dried...) but probably not worth the effort.
2022/12/20 15:01:08
Subject: Army Painter product teaser - It's Not Contrast!
Those metallics might have a use but definitely not over a white basecoat. Maybe over a brighter metallic basecoat, could save a step when I usually basecoat, wash then re-highlight.
2022/12/20 17:50:04
Subject: Re:Army Painter product teaser - It's Not Contrast!
Those look way worse than just slopping regular metallics and hitting them with some nuln oil/reikland gloss. And you don't have to wait 2-24 hours to work on them again.
This is a mediocre solution in search of a problem.
2022/12/20 19:53:24
Subject: Army Painter product teaser - It's Not Contrast!
As many have mentioned, it's a (poor) solution to a non-existant problem.
I've given AP so many chances over the years since it's easy to get their paint where I live, but every time they disappoint. Think I'm pretty much done with even checking in on their paint products.
2022/12/20 22:45:44
Subject: Army Painter product teaser - It's Not Contrast!
legionaires wrote: Glad to see Dakka doesn't change. Still gaking on AP.
I have all the current speed paint range, and I like it quite a bit for what it is (I did a lot of tests back in the day, you might look them up in the old speed paint thread). These ones, though, don't do anything for me.
2022/12/20 22:49:19
Subject: Army Painter product teaser - It's Not Contrast!
legionaires wrote: Glad to see Dakka doesn't change. Still gaking on AP.
'Dakka' is not a hive mind.
For what it's worth, I have a large collection of AP paints, and have been singing the praises of their Quickshades and sprays for years. I was initially very excited about the Speedpaint range, and even with the reactivation I'm not unhappy with the results I'm getting from them.
That being said, being disappointed in the whole reactivation thing being an issue in the first place, being further disappointed that they haven't fixed it with new additions to the range, and being less than impressed with the results of these new metallics doesn't seem unreasonable.
I'm willing to hold off judgement on the finish until we see better pics using them, but the samples in that video are not great.
2022/12/20 22:52:08
Subject: Army Painter product teaser - It's Not Contrast!
legionaires wrote: Glad to see Dakka doesn't change. Still gaking on AP.
A gakky product is gakky no matter who makes it. This gakky product happens to be made by AP. Some of their stuff is good. Airpaints are good and the skin tones box in particular is excellent, but they have made some bad moves lately. Swapping to that gel medium for their non-airpaint range has made the coverage terrible. Any paint that takes 24 freaking hours to avoid having it bleed into what it is touching has no business having "speed" in its name.
2022/12/20 23:08:34
Subject: Re:Army Painter product teaser - It's Not Contrast!
legionaires wrote: Glad to see Dakka doesn't change. Still gaking on AP.
A crap product is a crap product regardless of who makes it. I've given AP a bunch of money over the years, tried their spray primers, their washes, bought the Speed Paint starter set.
They make some good stuff, some crap stuff.
This looks like it will fall squarely into the "crap stuff" category.
Maybe I'll be impressed when they finally come out and other painters show what can be done with them, but for an initial announcement to build excitement this certainly falls flat.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/21 00:10:24
2022/12/20 23:35:53
Subject: Re:Army Painter product teaser - It's Not Contrast!
Swapping to that gel medium for their non-airpaint range
woot!?
Their mixing medium is some kind of transparent resin now. It doesn't seem to seriously impact all colors that I have tried, but enough to turn me off. For me, it has increased the separation, and even when you shake it to hell and back, still has a gross mucus like quality and many colors have poor coverage even over white. You can't drybrush or edge highlight with them. Normally I would chock it up to a bad batch, but I've purchased from multiple places over time, so I think that's just how they are now.
2022/12/21 00:43:14
Subject: Army Painter product teaser - It's Not Contrast!
Albertorius wrote: Not seeing any appeal at all, TBH. I use Vallejo metal colors, which are similarly easy to apply, and look significantly better, and yes, as said above, it makes more sense to shade or tint it afterwards.
One thing that would make me happy is to see Vallejo expand the Metal Colours range.
) referring to colours where we either know for sure or have a good idea what they looked like, not so much colours from 150+ years ago.
5000pts 
6000pts 
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