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Hmmm... Good points Sasori. They probably need to increase the points on the forge world dread. The redemptor is probably fine.

 Niiai wrote:
Hmmm... Good points Sasori. They probably need to increase the points on the forge world dread. The redemptor is probably fine.

When talking about Grey Knights, I mean the Nemesis Dread Knight, not any Dreadnoughts. Sorry for the confusion.

No. I was thinking of SM contemtor dreadnought. Twin volkite culverin for 5 points should probably go up a bit. 16 shots for 150 points and cyclone missile launcher on topp of that for 25. It is the only units SM seem to be spamming in all competitive lists that pushes above its cost if we are making a list of things that seem to be too good.

I do not know enough about GK to speak of them. But people keep mentioning them.

 Niiai wrote:
No. I was thinking of SM contemtor dreadnought. Twin volkite culverin for 5 points should probably go up a bit. 16 shots for 150 points and cyclone missile launcher on topp of that for 25. It is the only units SM seem to be spamming in all competitive lists that pushes above its cost if we are making a list of things that seem to be too good.

I do not know enough about GK to speak of them. But people keep mentioning them.

VolCons are underpriced for sure, but they are not sweeping events. I'd be loath to nerf something that a lot of midtier armies are relying on to stay competitive at all, when it's not dominating the game. I'd rather the serious problem issues be taken care of first, then evaluate if Volcons really need to be nerfed.

 Sasori wrote:
Just to kind of tie some threads together here, I think there are few things to state:

1. The Drukhari list in the Socal finals was absolutly a Skew list that in almost any cases would lose to Orks. The list is clearly designed to beat just about anything else, but would have almost no chance beating the buggie list
2. This does not mean that the Ork Buggie List is balanced. It's not, and it's pretty clear that Dakka Jets and Squig Buggies (Likely scrapjets) need to have points adjustments. The Freebootaz trait is complicating things
3. Orks have won several events, and won several more this weekend. There are certain aspects that need to be nerfed.
4. This does not mean that Ad Mech and Drukhari are okay. It's been pretty clear they need to be nerfed again as well.
5. GK will probably need to catch a small nerf as well, but nothing on the scale of Orks, Drukhari and Ad Mech.

It's pretty simple. Orks, Ad mech and Drukhari are all a serious issue right now, and dominating the Meta with GK. It's probably at the worst state it's been at in all of 9th, and I think is probably worse than the Casteallan and Iron hands nonsense at this point. These things need to be fixed.

As for Goonhammer, they have been very consently calling for more Ad Mech and Drukhari nerfs. Not sure if someone just cherry picked some articles to act like they don't think those two are a problem, a long with Orks.

This is not very accurate. You disregard the fact the same list got stomped in the same tournament, there 2 of the same. You also disregard that while orks are winning this is more to people having not adapted to it yet, they also feel like the outliers. Another thing to mention is, this list was tailor made to deal with drukkari, drawing nerfs out of this will only penalise other cultures and further entrench the freeboota trait making it mandatory.
You admit it yourself, the drukkari list is cheese, cheese with smell strong enough to dump on other lists.

I don't think your making a fair assessment of the current situation.

Here's a piece of my mind, i have seen several reports of tournaments, i play orks and i follow orks reports to see how they deal with other armies. You would be surprised how many times it comes up that the oponent and the ork player are not yet very aware of the codex.

Goonhammer called for a nerf on ork buggies the moment the codex came out, and they sauf the buggies would create balance issues with how cheap they are and the ramshackle rule.
They are being consistent. I am not saying they are right. I think a simple rework of the freebooter trait (change it to something entire,y different, it’s a bad mechanic ). But they are being consistent, they are not just being blindsided by a few tournament results

 Sasori wrote:
Just to kind of tie some threads together here, I think there are few things to state:

1. The Drukhari list in the Socal finals was absolutly a Skew list that in almost any cases would lose to Orks. The list is clearly designed to beat just about anything else, but would have almost no chance beating the buggie list
2. This does not mean that the Ork Buggie List is balanced. It's not, and it's pretty clear that Dakka Jets and Squig Buggies (Likely scrapjets) need to have points adjustments. The Freebootaz trait is complicating things
3. Orks have won several events, and won several more this weekend. There are certain aspects that need to be nerfed.
4. This does not mean that Ad Mech and Drukhari are okay. It's been pretty clear they need to be nerfed again as well.
5. GK will probably need to catch a small nerf as well, but nothing on the scale of Orks, Drukhari and Ad Mech.

It's pretty simple. Orks, Ad mech and Drukhari are all a serious issue right now, and dominating the Meta with GK. It's probably at the worst state it's been at in all of 9th, and I think is probably worse than the Casteallan and Iron hands nonsense at this point. These things need to be fixed.

As for Goonhammer, they have been very consently calling for more Ad Mech and Drukhari nerfs. Not sure if someone just cherry picked some articles to act like they don't think those two are a problem, a long with Orks.

Forceride wrote:

This is not very accurate. You disregard the fact the same list got stomped in the same tournament, there 2 of the same.

No, my assesement is an incredibly accurate summation of the current situation. I did not disregard the list losing a single match, it's just not that relevant. If the Tournament format allows you to still win after a loss, then if anything that is a point in his favor. The fact he could make into the top 8 with a "stomp" means that he scored very high on his other games, for a 7 out of 8 game stomp in his favor.

Forceride wrote:
You also disregard that while orks are winning this is more to people having not adapted to it yet, they also feel like the outliers.

No, we are past the point of the meta "adapting". Events over the past few weeks have shown an incredible consistency with the armies that are winning. This reeks of the same people that said things like "Drukhari is a hammer in a meta of nails"

Forceride wrote:

Another thing to mention is, this list was tailor made to deal with drukkari, drawing nerfs out of this will only penalise other cultures and further entrench the freeboota trait making it mandatory.

We've seen multiple variations of the buggie list at this point. While it deals very well with Drukhari, it also happens to do incredibly well against nearly every other army. There is only a small handful of armies that even have the ability to do anything to it. Drawing nerfs on these units are a must. Freebootaz or not, the Buggies are criminally underpriced for their firepower. The same as Dakkajets. There is no way someone can objectively look at these units and think they are fair and balanced, freebootaz or not.

Forceride wrote:
You admit it yourself, the drukkari list is cheese, cheese with smell strong enough to dump on other lists.

Not sure what your point is here. I fully admitted it's a skew list, and sometimes skewlists get skewed. My point is you could not draw conclusions from this win alone. Luckily, we have plenty other events with the data to backup that parts of the Ork army are overtuned and problematic.

Forceride wrote:I don't think your making a fair assessment of the current situation.

Why is that? I can point to multiple events as evidence to draw my conclusion. There is plenty of data out there. People said that Buggies would be a problem the moment the special edition codex was available. They were right.

Forceride wrote:
Here's a piece of my mind, i have seen several reports of tournaments, i play orks and i follow orks reports to see how they deal with other armies. You would be surprised how many times it comes up that the oponent and the ork player are not yet very aware of the codex.

This argument falls apart pretty quickly, once you realize how long the the codex has been out and how many events we have had since the release. Orks have been around long enough that competitive players are fully aware of what they can do. This is especially true when you start hitting the top tables. So the excuse of players not being aware falls off very quickly.

addnid wrote:Goonhammer called for a nerf on ork buggies the moment the codex came out, and they sauf the buggies would create balance issues with how cheap they are and the ramshackle rule.
They are being consistent. I am not saying they are right. I think a simple rework of the freebooter trait (change it to something entire,y different, it’s a bad mechanic ). But they are being consistent, they are not just being blindsided by a few tournament results

Yeah, they were pretty on point about some of the Ad Mech issues and have been incredibly consistent.

I agree the ork codex has been out for 3+ months. Multiple variations of buggy spam and freebooter shooting lists have been tried on grand tournaments and majors since that release. I’m this particular list not a single new model is even used…
So given all that tell me again what’s broken about an ork codex unit. That’s barely pushing a 50% win rate and on one of the biggest tournament Weekends in a while we had literally 5 majors and out of 47 players posted in the goonhammer review we had ONLY 4 ork players placing in the top 10… 1 win, 1x 3rd place finish and 2 players in 10th place… drukari and ad mech swept the field with 22 out of 47 placing.. BUT we also had 7 grey knight placing and 6 soritas placings heck several other armies placed just as well as orks… both orks win rate and thier placing in tournaments are showing that orks are NO where near as strong or overpowered as the freak out suggests.

gungo wrote:
I agree the ork codex has been out for 3+ months. Multiple variations of buggy spam and freebooter shooting lists have been tried on grand tournaments and majors since that release. I’m this particular list not a single new model is even used…
So given all that tell me again what’s broken about an ork codex unit. That’s barely pushing a 50% win rate and on one of the biggest tournament Weekends in a while we had literally 5 majors and out of 47 players posted in the goonhammer review we had ONLY 4 ork players placing in the top 10… 1 win, 1x 3rd place finish and 2 players in 10th place… drukari and ad mech swept the field with 22 out of 47 placing.. BUT we also had 7 grey knight placing and 6 soritas placings heck several other armies placed just as well as orks… both orks win rate and thier placing in tournaments are showing that orks are NO where near as strong or overpowered as the freak out suggests.

I think you missed part 2 of the article which had Orks notching two more wins and several more Top 4 placings: https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-many-magnificent-majors-pt-2/

So, Orks did quite well this weekend, and were part of the top 4 factions, including winning a super major.

As for what's broken, the Squigbuggies are broken for multiple points. The first part of course is that for their firepower, their cost is not at all balanced. Dakkajets have a similar issue, though obviously Freebootaz compounds that. In a Speedwaagh the amount of firepower you can put out for 120 is stupid absurd. Next, you have durability issue. Ramshackle means that you have a very limited range of weapons that can bypass that -1 damage, making these way more durable than they should be for their points. the -1 to hit on the Dakkajets compounds their durability issue. The third issue, and what is likely the biggest is issue is you don't really have any counterplay against these units. You can't hide from the buggies or the planes, making terrain and deployment matter significantly less. If the Ork player gets first turn, your chances of recovering are very limited. You either have an army that can deal with this, or you can't. Most armies cannot.

Now part of the reason you see the Orks a little less than Ad Mech or Drukhari, is because the Ork buggie list does have a few bad matchups, one of them being Ad Mech. Which presents another issue. Once Ad Mech get nerfed, If orks don't that means there is a very good chanee we see them absolutely dominate the meta similar to what we are seeing with Drukhari and Ad Mech.

Sasori you really seem like you are on a crusade against us orks, even though I agree with you on some points.

Tyel wrote:


Because okay, you put the Ork list up - say 10-15 points for buggies, 20 points for flyers. Average list is say 150-200ish points more expensive.

But I then go through DE and make them 150-200ish points more expensive.

Well... don't you end up essentially where you are now? Everything kills everything else far too quickly?

Problem with that specific game was that Ork list was a highly tailored lists against Drukhari. Of course it's gonna crush it in multiple occasions.

Real solution is to put drukhari in line, so that Ork player doesn't tailor against them anymore. And the very same lists he played, excatly as it is, isn't OP at all against the vast majority of the other factions.

Sasori... i am not going to argue in the sense your wrong and i am right... That lead's no where.. but i am also of the impression your on a crusade.

So far the only thing i can agree is that the freeboota trait is a concern.

But the orks have on average 50% win rate... They don't compare to neither drukari or AdMech.

1. this list is beatable by several armies, some one already mention SM and IG
2. This is not the list winning all the tournaments you mention, they vary, hell there is one with triple Kill Tank. Your drawing conclusions simply because Ork wins, this is bias. By your own admission you also mention that ork list are losing and winning tournaments... that why i say it's fine we aren't in any shape taking over.
3. Your also focusing on single placement only, this is not Drukkari and Admech... where they take the first 10 slots... it's not even comparable
4. This list was tailor made against dukari... another funny thing is, it is taking single unit buggies and it has buggies not commonly used
5. The owner of the druakkri list admitted he had no tool to deal with the Ork player so he gambled, and he could have won the match even then.. that does not seem right even with it's list (this is what i meant with cheese, when a list can outperform even though it's facing it's hard counter)
6. The reason the list is so effective against others is exactly because of drukari and Admech.. nobody is expecting this amount t6-7 with speed, like mentioned, several armies counter it effectively but i am sure the meta is shaped to deal with drukkari and Admech to the point their not viable.
7. Even in 3 months you do not have sufficient evidence to nerf them or Grey Knight's... but you DO have for AdMech and Drukarri with their ludicrous 60-70% and taking over all tournaments.. it's not even comparable.
8. The rukkatruks share the same issue we had with mech guns last codex, we use them because we do not have anything else in the codex similar.. that leaves it open that any nerf will affect all match ups.. Even the ones that are balanced. the big thing is buff staking with the freeboota.

In my opinion your just bashing 2 good units while you ignore that all armies have good units, should we nerf them too? I can agree the Freeboota pushes it to the top but so far all i see is we won because we can counter drukkari and hard. that's it, even by your own report that's what i get out of it. We Hard counter Drukkari, if we are lucky we can win tournaments if we ourselves do not meet the armies that handle us well.

I love how people complain that there is a crusade against Orks and that Admech and Drukhari are bad while complete ignoring the many many people who have consistantly kept calling for nerfs to Admech and Drukhari since they entered the scene.

Just because Orks are now also a problem that needs to be fixed doesn't mean Drukhari and Admech are no longer an issue.

 Sasori wrote:

gungo wrote:
I agree the ork codex has been out for 3+ months. Multiple variations of buggy spam and freebooter shooting lists have been tried on grand tournaments and majors since that release. I’m this particular list not a single new model is even used…
So given all that tell me again what’s broken about an ork codex unit. That’s barely pushing a 50% win rate and on one of the biggest tournament Weekends in a while we had literally 5 majors and out of 47 players posted in the goonhammer review we had ONLY 4 ork players placing in the top 10… 1 win, 1x 3rd place finish and 2 players in 10th place… drukari and ad mech swept the field with 22 out of 47 placing.. BUT we also had 7 grey knight placing and 6 soritas placings heck several other armies placed just as well as orks… both orks win rate and thier placing in tournaments are showing that orks are NO where near as strong or overpowered as the freak out suggests.

I think you missed part 2 of the article which had Orks notching two more wins and several more Top 4 placings: https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-many-magnificent-majors-pt-2/

So, Orks did quite well this weekend, and were part of the top 4 factions, including winning a super major.

As for what's broken, the Squigbuggies are broken for multiple points. The first part of course is that for their firepower, their cost is not at all balanced. Dakkajets have a similar issue, though obviously Freebootaz compounds that. In a Speedwaagh the amount of firepower you can put out for 120 is stupid absurd. Next, you have durability issue. Ramshackle means that you have a very limited range of weapons that can bypass that -1 damage, making these way more durable than they should be for their points. the -1 to hit on the Dakkajets compounds their durability issue. The third issue, and what is likely the biggest is issue is you don't really have any counterplay against these units. You can't hide from the buggies or the planes, making terrain and deployment matter significantly less. If the Ork player gets first turn, your chances of recovering are very limited. You either have an army that can deal with this, or you can't. Most armies cannot.

Now part of the reason you see the Orks a little less than Ad Mech or Drukhari, is because the Ork buggie list does have a few bad matchups, one of them being Ad Mech. Which presents another issue. Once Ad Mech get nerfed, If orks don't that means there is a very good chanee we see them absolutely dominate the meta similar to what we are seeing with Drukhari and Ad Mech.

No I didn’t miss part 2… I listed the larger more accurate majors/super major (including 2 on part 2) not the smaller GTs… even if you add the smaller more local GTs the ork representation is still lower then ad mech, drukari, greyknights and even adeptus soritas… also orks only have a 50% win rate… you can jump around it all you like but the stats show completely different view than the one you are trying to make about how orks are broken. So ya let’s nerf everybody and put space marines broken and on top again because that seems to be the only time anyone doesn’t have a complete meltdown.

 Ordana wrote:
I love how people complain that there is a crusade against Orks and that Admech and Drukhari are bad while complete ignoring the many many people who have consistantly kept calling for nerfs to Admech and Drukhari since they entered the scene.

Just because Orks are now also a problem that needs to be fixed doesn't mean Drukhari and Admech are no longer an issue.

But are they? Cause games like the one we're discussing the entire week is a really unbalanced one. The ork list was heavily tailored against drukhari, isn't an oppressive list in general, while drukhari and ad mech are typically oppressive against anyone, including tailored orks.

I think the issue is Sean is a nice guy and a well respected player who got absolutely man handled in this game by taking a win at all cost tactic that backfired because he felt he had no
Other Choice. He claims even if he fell back and counter charged later he would have still been tabled (maybe turn 3) and he’s probably right.

But that’s not necessarily the ork codex fault… Sean took an army with low antitank but extreme assault and fragile. It was hard countered by a shooty vehicle spam list that Sean had no answer for… is this the ork codex fault? Or Sean list building fault? Does drukari not have enough anti tank in thier codex? They do btw….

So we are back to the jist of the complaints people don’t like rock, paper, scissors play that even one of the best players can’t overcome because they lose during list building when they make a skew army to combat 2 wound elite squads instead of anti tank. They don’t like the fact even when someone places themselves in the absolute worst position possible they can lose 75% of thier army from making a bad decision that backfired. And I’m not saying Sean had a lot of choice here. I’m saying he could not have made a worst list and placed it in a worst position if he tried vs this ork build.

The bottom line is this.. orks have a balanced 50% win rate, orks have a high to mid high range in placing a in major tournaments.. orks are still less then 10% of all placings. And most importantly outside of drukari orks are not wiping out most armies off the table… the vast majority of other competitive codexs ad mech, greyknights, space marines, adeptus soritas, deathguard, t-sons, etc are all tough fights for orks. Heck admech hard counters this ork list; in fact this list lost vs admech during this tournament.

However currently drukari make up ~25% of all tournament placings.. currently drukari have a 60%+ win rate… and when an ork list gets to the top tables as it did in this 1 tournament where the player faced 3x drukari armies in a row the ork codex and it’s 1 competitive build seems a lot more powerful Becuase they hard counter drukari… that is the issue…and people lost thier freakin minds afterwards.

 Blackie wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
I love how people complain that there is a crusade against Orks and that Admech and Drukhari are bad while complete ignoring the many many people who have consistantly kept calling for nerfs to Admech and Drukhari since they entered the scene.

Just because Orks are now also a problem that needs to be fixed doesn't mean Drukhari and Admech are no longer an issue.

But are they? Cause games like the one we're discussing the entire week is a really unbalanced one. The ork list was heavily tailored against drukhari, isn't an oppressive list in general, while drukhari and ad mech are typically oppressive against anyone, including tailored orks.

No army, no matter how much you tailor and counter your opponent and no matter how ideal your position is, should be able to remove 1800 points in a single turn. Period. The end.

And its not just Orks, before someone starts shouting. Admech will do the same thing if you let it (see London GT) Drukhari can probably do the same if they get all their charges. No one should be able to do this.

We've all been calling for DE nerfs from week 1 of the Codex coming out. You can't go on about it every day for six months - its kind of old.

I expect DE to be crushed in a future Chapter Approved, hopefully early in 2022. Ad Mech will likely get similar treatment.

The Speedwaaagh list is a problem. It has a few bad matchups - but it is producing plenty of games where it goes first and eats the opponent's list. Maybe not 1800 points - but I think we can all agree, you don't need to do that much damage in a single turn to win a game of 40k. As said - if DE and Ad Mech get nerfed and everything else remains the same, then you can expect 6-12 months of Speedwaaagh domination.

Its perfectly reasonable to say that if they nerf Speedwaaagh they should look at buffing regular waaagh - whether that's Greentide, Dreads, whatever - because otherwise Orks will be without an obvious competitive build. Which would be sad.

But we need to get away from these "I could see it so I deleted it" armies. Because its bad for the game.

This is definitely the worst 9th has been so far, but it's not even close to the domination we saw with Iron Hands in 8th. That was a completely different level.

 Ordana wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
I love how people complain that there is a crusade against Orks and that Admech and Drukhari are bad while complete ignoring the many many people who have consistantly kept calling for nerfs to Admech and Drukhari since they entered the scene.

Just because Orks are now also a problem that needs to be fixed doesn't mean Drukhari and Admech are no longer an issue.

But are they? Cause games like the one we're discussing the entire week is a really unbalanced one. The ork list was heavily tailored against drukhari, isn't an oppressive list in general, while drukhari and ad mech are typically oppressive against anyone, including tailored orks.

No army, no matter how much you tailor and counter your opponent and no matter how ideal your position is, should be able to remove 1800 points in a single turn. Period. The end.

And its not just Orks, before someone starts shouting. Admech will do the same thing if you let it (see London GT) Drukhari can probably do the same if they get all their charges. No one should be able to do this.

Except Sean Chose to bring an army that wasn’t durable it’s not even drukari codex fault.. Sean could have taken more durable less glass cannon units but he didn’t he went for the hard counter to 2 wound elite infantry and ended up facing shooty vehicles and lost… he said himself he has nothing in his list that could handle that.. it’s not the armies fault it is list building on one codex vs another army… orks dont 1 shot any other of the 20 armies in 40K.. they only happen to hard counter a popular meta army and y’all lost your gak afterwards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
We've all been calling for DE nerfs from week 1 of the Codex coming out. You can't go on about it every day for six months - its kind of old.

I expect DE to be crushed in a future Chapter Approved, hopefully early in 2022. Ad Mech will likely get similar treatment.

The Speedwaaagh list is a problem. It has a few bad matchups - but it is producing plenty of games where it goes first and eats the opponent's list. Maybe not 1800 points - but I think we can all agree, you don't need to do that much damage in a single turn to win a game of 40k. As said - if DE and Ad Mech get nerfed and everything else remains the same, then you can expect 6-12 months of Speedwaaagh domination.

Its perfectly reasonable to say that if they nerf Speedwaaagh they should look at buffing regular waaagh - whether that's Greentide, Dreads, whatever - because otherwise Orks will be without an obvious competitive build. Which would be sad.

But we need to get away from these "I could see it so I deleted it" armies. Because its bad for the game.

I mean greyknights are winning more then speed Waagh and deathguard is almost as hard a counter as admech for orks… so no speed waggh won’t dominate especially if they become more popular and the meta grabs a lot more anti tank which will destroy these types of list. Speed waggh is easily counter especially if you take enough antitank not zero antitank like the drukari had.

Agreed, I think the problem for most Ork players is seeing some of the oversimplified responses that Orks are OP and need nerfing.
Most of us Ork players who play against factions other than DE know our armies aren’t OP.

I’m not a tournament player, don’t run freebooterz, speedwaaagh or buggy spam and a SM army can give me real problems.
The reason people do, is that our infantry and shooting (outside of freebooterz) can be simply pathetic against hard targets like marines.

By all means, add a few points to some problematic units (squigbuggies, scrapjets, etc). Maybe even look into the freebooterz traits but the issue isn’t Orks. Most people default to buggy spam because few other options are open to competitive Ork players.

I will also concede that flyers screening buggies from melee is nonsense but this example, as with many of the factors are symptoms of general gameplay rather than the Ork codex.

DoktaRoksta wrote:

I’m not a tournament player, don’t run freebooterz, speedwaaagh or buggy spam and a SM army can give me real problems.
The reason people do, is that our infantry and shooting (outside of freebooterz) can be simply pathetic against hard targets like marines.

By all means, add a few points to some problematic units (squigbuggies, scrapjets, etc). Maybe even look into the freebooterz traits but the issue isn’t Orks. Most people default to buggy spam because few other options are open to competitive Ork players.

The prolematic part of ork lists is the celining. Freeboterz, Speedwagh in a buggy spam with airplanes. And if this is not what you are playing then chances are very high that your insight with a different ork build does not give good data when it comes to how the list that is doing well is playig. Let us call your list more cassual (even though I do not know) and this tournament winning list more competetive. It might be that orks have a harder time against SM then high costed fragile modells like DE. (Admech are also quite fragile if they only spam T3 models and airplanes? I do not know them that well.)

However, if GW decide to increase the points on all the problematic units because they are so good in the competetive armie then you will get a lot or problems in a more cassual list because they are balanced for BS4+, not 5+. (Of course the blood axes might be the real gem as somebody like to point out in this thread. However, with all of the units beeing singel model units I have a hard time seeing getting a potensial few more models shooting outwights a 50% incease in deadlyness.)

An this this thread comes full circle. A lott of cassual orks will suffer the sins of the competetive orks because games need to balance for cealings, not cassual of floors.

addnid wrote:Sasori you really seem like you are on a crusade against us orks, even though I agree with you on some points.

I've made about three to four posts about it, and my concern has been mostly with 3 units. I'm a bit at loss how that could be construed as a "crusade against orks"

Forceride wrote:Sasori... i am not going to argue in the sense your wrong and i am right... That lead's no where.. but i am also of the impression your on a crusade.

Again, I don't see how 4 posts against about 3 units and a problematic subfaction rule is considered on a crusade. I've been on record about the same issues with Ad Mech and Drukhari when they pop up.

Forceride wrote:
So far the only thing i can agree is that the freeboota trait is a concern.

It is exemplifying some of the issues, but it is not the the only issue present.

Forceride wrote:
But the orks have on average 50% win rate... They don't compare to neither drukari or AdMech.

And one of the reasons Orks have a bit of a lower winrate than the other top factions is because the top Ad Mech builds are very good against the buggie Freebootaz build. Once again though, just because Ad Mech and Drukhari is a problem, doesn't mean Orks are not as well.

Forceride wrote:
1. this list is beatable by several armies, some one already mention SM and IG

I'm going to need some sources on Space Marines regularly being able to beat the Freebootaz list.

Forceride wrote:
2. This is not the list winning all the tournaments you mention, they vary, hell there is one with triple Kill Tank. Your drawing conclusions simply because Ork wins, this is bias. By your own admission you also mention that ork list are losing and winning tournaments... that why i say it's fine we aren't in any shape taking over.

No, the exact same list is not winning every tourunament, but the vast, vast majority of every podium placing Orks list has Freebootaz, with some combination of Dakkajets, Scrapjets and Squigbuggies. Which is the entire point I'm making, that these are the problematic units not the Ork codex as a whole

Forceride wrote:
3. Your also focusing on single placement only, this is not Drukkari and Admech... where they take the first 10 slots... it's not even comparable

No... I'm not. Orks have been making multiple podium placements for a while, and I pointed out several more wins and podium placements over the weekend. Once again though, just because Ad Mech and Drukhari are a problem, does not mean Orks are not.

Forceride wrote:
4. This list was tailor made against dukari... another funny thing is, it is taking single unit buggies and it has buggies not commonly used

Yes, I've already mentioned multiple times that it's a list that does incredibly well into durkhari, and was ampliefied by Nayden's list being a super skew list, and no one should be drawing conclusions from that single list.
As for the buggies not being used, this is a non-starter. The list is still using multiple Dakkajets, Scrapjets and Buggies in Freebootaz. The meta hasn't landed on single list yet, which goes to show the strength of the codex, but it still has the same problem units that the other podium lists are putting up.

Forceride wrote:
5. The owner of the druakkri list admitted he had no tool to deal with the Ork player so he gambled, and he could have won the match even then.. that does not seem right even with it's list (this is what i meant with cheese, when a list can outperform even though it's facing it's hard counter)

Here is the issue right here. All the Ork players are brining up the skewed matchup as the defense against these units being problematic, but flat out ignoring every other instance where these lists are dominating. Anyone that plays comp warhammer and goes to events understands this is a skew list and you can't draw conclusions from it. What you can start to draw conclusions from is the large amount of data we have present now from multiple events, which is showing a trend and serious issue.

Forceride wrote:
6. The reason the list is so effective against others is exactly because of drukari and Admech.. nobody is expecting this amount t6-7 with speed, like mentioned, several armies counter it effectively but i am sure the meta is shaped to deal with drukkari and Admech to the point their not viable.

This is exact same statements that Drukhari players were making when their codex came out. That "Drukhari was a hammer in a meta full of nails" That's simply just not the case. Most armies do not have the tools or the army composition to deal with the Buggie Freebootaz lists, and the nature of the list itself rendering things like terrain and deployment almost a moot point is a serious issue. I'm not sure you can fail to recognize the multiple serious issues here.

Forceride wrote:
7. Even in 3 months you do not have sufficient evidence to nerf them or Grey Knight's... but you DO have for AdMech and Drukarri with their ludicrous 60-70% and taking over all tournaments.. it's not even comparable.

This has literally been your arugement for three of these posts, and yes, there is sufficent evidence. You know it only took 3 months of Drukhari before their first nerf came right? There is no reason Orks should expect not to get that treatment when they have already proved problematic. Once again, just because Ad Mech and Drukhari are a problem, does not mean Orks are also not an issue.

Forceride wrote:
8. The rukkatruks share the same issue we had with mech guns last codex, we use them because we do not have anything else in the codex similar.. that leaves it open that any nerf will affect all match ups.. Even the ones that are balanced. the big thing is buff staking with the freeboota.

I fail to see how the ork codex cannot function without squigbuggies. As for nothing else similar, most armies only have 1, if even that units that can fire out of line of sight, and they are normally priced very high for that reason. 90 points for what you get with a squigbuggie is absolutely insane, and I don't see how you fail to see this.

Forceride wrote:
In my opinion your just bashing 2 good units while you ignore that all armies have good units, should we nerf them too? I can agree the Freeboota pushes it to the top but so far all i see is we won because we can counter drukkari and hard. that's it, even by your own report that's what i get out of it. We Hard counter Drukkari, if we are lucky we can win tournaments if we ourselves do not meet the armies that handle us well.

You act like there are not plenty of other good untis in the Ork codex. You still have amazing units like the Killrig, Wartrikes, Squigasaur, etc. let's do ourselves a favor here and not pretend like there are not other strong options available. If "Winning only because you counter Drukhari" is all you are getting by my posts you need to re-read it, because that is not at all what I said. Orks are also not "lucky" if they can win tournaments, otherwise they would not be doing so consistently.

 Blackie wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
I love how people complain that there is a crusade against Orks and that Admech and Drukhari are bad while complete ignoring the many many people who have consistantly kept calling for nerfs to Admech and Drukhari since they entered the scene.

Just because Orks are now also a problem that needs to be fixed doesn't mean Drukhari and Admech are no longer an issue.

But are they? Cause games like the one we're discussing the entire week is a really unbalanced one. The ork list was heavily tailored against drukhari, isn't an oppressive list in general, while drukhari and ad mech are typically oppressive against anyone, including tailored orks.

I'll point this out again, but no one should being drawing any conclusions from that match. It's clear that the Drukhari players skew list just got outskewed. You can't draw any kind conclusions from it, and it really seems like everyone is getting hung up on this single match, instead of looking at the issue as a whole.

 addnid wrote:
Sasori you really seem like you are on a crusade against us orks, even though I agree with you on some points.

This isn't an actual argument. It's just trying to downgrade his position by saying he's got something against Orks when he's got legitimate points on the matter.

It's weird how defensive people have gotten over this when he's mentioned he's also wanting to balance out Drukhari and Admech as well. While pointing out the overall data and being consistent on the issue.

Dukhari and Admech are also big issues. But just because those two totally deserves a serious relook for balance purposes doesn't mean something like Artillery type units with too powerful shooting and flyers that are too good shouldn't be looked into as well. (In fact, flyers mechanics in general need to be looked at probably at some point).

Dreadnaughts in general are a problem more for balance between unit types. Very few tanks feel worth it when compared to dreadnaughts, which can be just as shooty, tankier, and most fight better than a tank as well.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 addnid wrote:
Sasori you really seem like you are on a crusade against us orks, even though I agree with you on some points.

This isn't an actual argument. It's just trying to downgrade his position by saying he's got something against Orks when he's got legitimate points on the matter.

It's weird how defensive people have gotten over this when he's mentioned he's also wanting to balance out Drukhari and Admech as well. While pointing out the overall data and being consistent on the issue.

I mean he has no idea what he’s talking about. First off orks aren’t dominating. 4 placings out of 47 in the majors/super majors podium placings isn’t dominating especially when about half a dozen armies have more placing then them. He keeps saying just ad mech and drukari is doing better but he fails to address the fact greyknights adowtus soritas deathguard, Alderu, iron hands, are all placing just as much or higher then orks. Out of 47 players this weekend in the majors and super majors orks has 1 first place, 1x 3rd place and 2x 10 place…. That isn’t dominating as he claims…. He said himself orks his problem is orks have been getting multiple podium placements for a while. I mean orks placing in tournaments ya but it’s not exactly a common thing. Multiple other armies are placing more often then orks (not just ad mech and drukari).

Next he mentions worthless units that haven’t been good in 2 editions like squigasaur as other strong units. He thinks the wartrike is a good unit when the only reason people take it is that it is one of the only units that can call speed waaagh. He doesn’t even know what’s good or bad and making a bunch of uninformed comments…

it’s NOT just admech that beats ork speedwaagh it’s any list with enough antitank. Ffs deathguard is one of the hard counters to orks. The ork forum talks about them constantly being a problem for orks but you wouldn’t know this because all you have are the peanut gallery freakin about this single tournament repeating some of the same uninformed comments and it’s just because this same list that won this tournament lost vs admech that tournament.. but I assure you deathguard and greyknights can be as big of a problem as ad mech. Because a bunch of str5/6 ap1/2 dam1 bs4 shooting isn’t exactly overpowered unless your list is a complete glass cannon like this drukari list.

Finally we all know the squigbuggy should go up about 10-15 points as it’s better then the other buggies, heck the Killrig should go up too and it has nothing to do so far with this or any tournament winning ork list. And the Dakkajet could go up about 15 points (5 points per superdakka)…but NONE of that would change anything with the way ork speedwaagh won this tournament because it was just a horrible matchup for the drukari player and he would still lose 75% of his army in 1 turn because an extra 90 points wouldn’t change anything.
This list didn’t really spam anything. At best the worst part of this list was bringing 4x flyers and he abused flyer base rules to completely block out turn 1 assaults. That was the issue not orks.

Many people on this thread seems to want to finds problem where there are none.

GW has always published strong units and will always do. It's the turn for the squigbuggie and dakkajet? Ok then.

Are the orks lists stomping every GT they see? No. Do orks have some hard counter to their list? Yes. Then adjust your list to beat them. Nothing more nothing less.

Still 20% winrate gap between drukh and orks but yeah nerf orks. And nerf my imperial fist army too when you are at it because i'm pretty sure i can do the same with an extremly fragile army showing at 6" of my gunline but whatever. I'm also a nobody on the internet so i must be wrong.

Psychocouac I started this thread because the ork nerf in particular seemed hard to implement well. They would probably keep on nerfing all topp winning units, that is the name of the game when you want to do anual balancing. Orks are on that list, Drukhari, Admech, some problematic GK units maybe and the point cost on the contemptor dreadnough volcites. Porbably several SM taks should go down in points, presumably other units I do not know that well.

 Niiai wrote:
Psychocouac I started this thread because the ork nerf in particular seemed hard to implement well. They would probably keep on nerfing all topp winning units, that is the name of the game when you want to do anual balancing. Orks are on that list, Drukhari, Admech, some problematic GK units maybe and the point cost on the contemptor dreadnough volcites. Porbably several SM taks should go down in points, presumably other units I do not know that well.

Yes i read your posts on page 1. But you seem to believe that the top winning units absolutely NEED a nerf. But we are not in the drukh/admech case when you need a FAQ/errata ASAP because they are totally broken and are a threat to the entire competitive scene. Those units are strong yes, so people take them, and in combination with the best trait they can find. But they don't curve the meta around them. The ork winratio is here to prove it.

For myself i would just wait until new codexes come out and the """problem""" will resolve by itself when new oppleasenerf-things will surely appear. I'm eager to see how this "buggie-spam" meta will adapt when GI, craftworld and Tau and their bunch of F7+ weapons are released. Even Genestealer Cult and Custodes stuff this winter will surely bring some surprises.

Psychocouac wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Psychocouac I started this thread because the ork nerf in particular seemed hard to implement well. They would probably keep on nerfing all topp winning units, that is the name of the game when you want to do anual balancing. Orks are on that list, Drukhari, Admech, some problematic GK units maybe and the point cost on the contemptor dreadnough volcites. Porbably several SM taks should go down in points, presumably other units I do not know that well.

Yes i read your posts on page 1. But you seem to believe that the top winning units absolutely NEED a nerf. But we are not in the drukh/admech case when you need a FAQ/errata ASAP because they are totally broken and are a threat to the entire competitive scene. Those units are strong yes, so people take them, and in combination with the best trait they can find. But they don't curve the meta around them. The ork winratio is here to prove it.

For myself i would just wait until new codexes come out and the """problem""" will resolve by itself when new oppleasenerf-things will surely appear. I'm eager to see how this "buggie-spam" meta will adapt when GI, craftworld and Tau and their bunch of F7+ weapons are released. Even Genestealer Cult and Custodes stuff this winter will surely bring some surprises.

"just let the next OP thing fix it" is how 40k got into a position where its apparently 'ok' for games to be decided in 1 turn (and, again, not just talking about Orks here. Admech and Drukhari do it aswell). 9th edition doesn't need more OP gak. It needs everyone to come down in strength so games are decided by more then turn 2.