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I mean dakkajets are a bit much with Thier 42 max shots during a speed waaagh even at str 6 ap1 dam1 but what exactly is overpowered again with buggy spam?

Is it the movement 10 toughness 6 platform? Or that amazing 2d6 shots 36in range str 5 ap2 dam 2 shooting…at bs4 with a freebooter trigger.. I mean that mid range bs heavy bolter spam really dominates the meta… if you objectively look at these unit profiles they are aggressively costed but hardly overpowered.. again raise squigbuggies up 10-15 points and the Dakkajet 15 points and it won’t change anything that happened. Heck most ork players would agree with you… but don’t fool yourself into thinking orks are overpowered you are just nerfing orks because they had a decent strong codex list that manhandled a drukari player in a super major tournament once. And yes it’s just once 3x months this dex has been out and orks have not been dominating any tournaments.

 Ordana wrote:

"just let the next OP thing fix it" is how 40k got into a position where its apparently 'ok' for games to be decided in 1 turn (and, again, not just talking about Orks here. Admech and Drukhari do it aswell). 9th edition doesn't need more OP gak. It needs everyone to come down in strength so games are decided by more then turn 2.

As far as i would like this to exist, it's a dream. What you are aiming for is an utopia you can forget it immediatly. I'm playing since the start of 3d edition and there is a gran total of 0 editions that where so balanced that some games weren't decided turn one or two. Heck i've played some that were settled even before deployment. Particularly on the competitive scene where you can find your arch-nemesis list.

And it won't ever be balanced. It's a chimere. It's not a selling point for GW. You are not in control of those things. So far it's just ONE game. If every game with that kind of list was settled like that then ok but come on it's just a particular occurence. Nothing more. As i said in this situation my imperial fist army would have wreck the drukh army. Do you think the IF need a nerf because of that? Or the GI? Or any gunline army? Then quit 40k because gunlines are here since the beginning and are here to stay.

So for now, record the ork results and if it happen again on a regular basis then yes we will discuss about it.

A max cap of two flyers, in any army list. The generic rules of flyers are a big factor in why things get out of hand.

Point balancing and/or unit requirements. Point balancing, is self explanatory but can be a bit of a blunt instrument. Unit requirements, think of the cultist or pox walker cap per other infantry unit - so you aren't allowed to spam many units of those cheap infantry. Perhaps tying multiple buggies to a Mek? Indiviudally the buggies or other units may go up in cost by nothing or a smaller degree but taking multiples of 3 adds an extra chunk in points, limiting the spam.

The issue with the orks units is efficency - they do it so well! They have, bundled together, so many different good ability (range/speed/durability/shooting/melee). Indivudally the specifics don't look all that impressive.

Razerous wrote:
A max cap of two flyers, in any army list. The generic rules of flyers are a big factor in why things get out of hand.

Point balancing and/or unit requirements. Point balancing, is self explanatory but can be a bit of a blunt instrument. Unit requirements, think of the cultist or pox walker cap per other infantry unit - so you aren't allowed to spam many units of those cheap infantry. Perhaps tying multiple buggies to a Mek? Indiviudally the buggies or other units may go up in cost by nothing or a smaller degree but taking multiples of 3 adds an extra chunk in points, limiting the spam.

The issue with the orks units is efficency - they do it so well! They have, bundled together, so many different good ability (range/speed/durability/shooting/melee). Indivudally the specifics don't look all that impressive.

Again this list did not spam anything… also buggies suck in melee and mostly shoot 24in or less weapons w a movement of 10. This isn’t exactly taking over the entire board with thier range.
Every single detachment was a minimum squad of 1 and nothing broke the rule of 3. He even used some of the least effective buggies that were nerfed since in the codex like the shokkjump which can no longer advance and jump every turn. Even if you limited them to a single squad of 3 it wouldn’t change anything… and he took a big Mek anyway…. Cause orks have to anyway in order to get the kff to work. You are going to have to sledge hammer the entire ork codex just to appease drukari incubi spam because most of what you mentioned wouldn’t have change the list that won. Add 15 points to squigbuggies and it’s by far the most expensive buggy and add 15 points to dakkajets and it’s the second most expensive aircraft and this list still would only be down 90 points and he might drop one of the crappier buggies (aka shokkjump). Still the game he won would be the exact same. So you want to keep nerfing the ork codex because of a mismatched tournament win.

Razerous wrote:

Perhaps tying multiple buggies to a Mek? Indiviudally the buggies or other units may go up in cost by nothing or a smaller degree but taking multiples of 3 adds an extra chunk in points, limiting the spam.

Easier fix, eliminate squadrons from buggies. Players could still bring up to 15 buggies (plus up to 3 wartrikes), just up to 3 of each flavour. 3 squigbuggies don't scare anyone, even if they are 10-20 ppm undercosted. Otherwise a points hike wouldn't solve anything. Someone who brings 9 squigbuggies would just bring 8 or 7 at worse, without changing anything else. Or still the same 9 if removing a less performing unit. Make them overcosted and people would bring none.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

Again this list did not spam anything…

4 planes (but even 3) are a perfect example of spam.

 Blackie wrote:

Razerous wrote:

Perhaps tying multiple buggies to a Mek? Indiviudally the buggies or other units may go up in cost by nothing or a smaller degree but taking multiples of 3 adds an extra chunk in points, limiting the spam.

Easier fix, eliminate squadrons from buggies. Players could still bring up to 15 buggies (plus up to 3 wartrikes), just up to 3 of each flavour. 3 squigbuggies don't scare anyone, even if they are 10-20 ppm undercosted. Otherwise a points hike wouldn't solve anything. Someone who brings 9 squigbuggies would just bring 8 or 7 at worse, without changing anything else. Or still the same 9 if removing a less performing unit. Make them overcosted and people would bring none.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

Again this list did not spam anything…

4 planes (but even 3) are a perfect example of spam.

Then erase all squadrons from astra militarum. Erase piranha squadron, broadsides squads, crisis squads. Erase Vyper and craftworld walker squads. Why not erase all squads from the game?

If the "hord" army can't take more than one unit per slot then no other army should.


All of this is just some drukh butthurt. Let me play some sad song on the smallest violin ever.

Not all squads. Models with stats like T5-6 and 4-6W can and should be squadroned. Squadron should be an option for those units that just a bit more than a bike and not enough of a light tank. Deffkoptas, Mek Gunz, Scout Sentinels, War Walkers, Vypers or Attack Bikes, etc... they're all ok as a squadron of vehicles.

T6 8-9 W 4+ and -1D with lots of weapons (ork buggies stats) are already light tanks.

Units like predators, vindicators, leman russes or even SM buggies (8W) definitely shouldn't have the option to be taken as squadrons. The point is the option of bringing lots of models with that profile can easily go into skew territory, which is always bad. And with multiple datasheets of similar stuff, like 5 different datasheets for ork buggies, those who want a thematic army still can do it.

I'm also against squadrons of regular walkers, like ork deff dreads. Just make them better, like SM ones, instead of encouraging their use just by letting the ork player save up slots.

Excepts squadrons had nothing to do with the freak out at the SoCal.

While 4 units of single flyers (2 separate models as well) is a lot and not something I personally enjoy playing it’s not really spam. For reference I own 3 flyers and have played with all 3 before in ork lists in most instances it’s been a detriment even while using freebooter klan as a large portion of your army can’t claim objectives. I honestly never heard anyone have a problem with me using 3 flyers.
Ffs last edition a year ago people regularly used 3x flyers for the eadbutt stratagem. No one called it spam then either.

7th Ed I believe had a air wing detachment of 6 flyers for orks. Other armies tyranids, admech, necrons, etc regularly use more then 4 flyers but for orks it’s now considered spam okayyy.

And I don’t disagree with you about limiting aircraft to 3 total at 2000 points but you are going to butcher other armies not orks..

Squadrons actually hurt buggies, you DONT want to squadron them up...which is why that list didnt squadron them.
He used 2 Outrider detachments, which costs 6cp as it doesnt refund the one the warlord is in and gives him 12 FA and 4 of each other type to play with, only 3 in each detachment of FA is mandatory (and HQ).

I dont know why everyone is screaming to limit aircrafts. Nobody ever thinks to limit the slots when people fill them with 1-2 unit types except for planes for some reason.

Orks are literally supposed to field multiples of anything they bring, thats a design they have followed for years if not decades. Its what lead to Deffdreads being squadrons, they simply were not strong enough to compete with the other heavy slots due to taking 2-3 slots to even do anything.

Yes I believe topp performing units need a nerf if they are over the topp good. It comes with the territory when you rebalance the game with points the way GW do.

There are other models. Hearthstone tweaks cards or ban cards, as well as rotation ever year. Mtg can not tweak cards, they either ban them or let them be until rotation. Moba type games like LOL and Dota nerf and tweak champions that do well in ladder and tournaments. (Although LOL has fundamentally changed up skill trees, jungle and supports, as well as recreated characters from the ground up.)

GW for the most part do not tweak rules. (Rarly, mostly things like rule of tree in 8th edition. As well as scoring end of fifth turn and secondaries.) Too good units gets point increases. Underperforming units should get point decreases. (Unfortunately this later happen rarely. RIP all over costed unit out there.)

gungo wrote:
Excepts squadrons had nothing to do with the freak out at the SoCal.

While 4 units of single flyers (2 separate models as well) is a lot and not something I personally enjoy playing it’s not really spam. For reference I own 3 flyers and have played with all 3 before in ork lists in most instances it’s been a detriment even while using freebooter klan as a large portion of your army can’t claim objectives. I honestly never heard anyone have a problem with me using 3 flyers.
Ffs last edition a year ago people regularly used 3x flyers for the eadbutt stratagem. No one called it spam then either.

7th Ed I believe had a air wing detachment of 6 flyers for orks. Other armies tyranids, admech, necrons, etc regularly use more then 4 flyers but for orks it’s now considered spam okayyy.

And I don’t disagree with you about limiting aircraft to 3 total at 2000 points but you are going to butcher other armies not orks..

We are now in the territory of someone trying to use 7th edition to deflect from Ork issues in 9th.

Next he mentions worthless units that haven’t been good in 2 editions like squigasaur as other strong units. He thinks the wartrike is a good unit when the only reason people take it is that it is one of the only units that can call speed waaagh. He doesn’t even know what’s good or bad and making a bunch of uninformed comments…

The Squigosaur literally just got introduced this book. You really are arguing in bad faith aren't you?

Everyone hold onto your hats. Speed Freeks Army of Renown coming in hot in War Zone Octarius Book 2: Critical Mass

 alextroy wrote:
Everyone hold onto your hats. Speed Freeks Army of Renown coming in hot in War Zone Octarius Book 2: Critical Mass

Yup, it's just gonna add more fuel to the flame of nerf demands assuming it's a flat boost to buggy units instead of other speed freeks like warbikes and deffkoptas. Was hoping for Dred Mob stuff tbh.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

gungo wrote:
Excepts squadrons had nothing to do with the freak out at the SoCal.

While 4 units of single flyers (2 separate models as well) is a lot and not something I personally enjoy playing it’s not really spam. For reference I own 3 flyers and have played with all 3 before in ork lists in most instances it’s been a detriment even while using freebooter klan as a large portion of your army can’t claim objectives. I honestly never heard anyone have a problem with me using 3 flyers.
Ffs last edition a year ago people regularly used 3x flyers for the eadbutt stratagem. No one called it spam then either.

7th Ed I believe had a air wing detachment of 6 flyers for orks. Other armies tyranids, admech, necrons, etc regularly use more then 4 flyers but for orks it’s now considered spam okayyy.

And I don’t disagree with you about limiting aircraft to 3 total at 2000 points but you are going to butcher other armies not orks..

We are now in the territory of someone trying to use 7th edition to deflect from Ork issues in 9th.

Next he mentions worthless units that haven’t been good in 2 editions like squigasaur as other strong units. He thinks the wartrike is a good unit when the only reason people take it is that it is one of the only units that can call speed waaagh. He doesn’t even know what’s good or bad and making a bunch of uninformed comments…

The Squigosaur literally just got introduced this book. You really are arguing in bad faith aren't you?

Don’t feed the troll. The dude loves to browse past arguments until he finds a hill he thinks is worth dying on like in the tournament discussion, thinking orks are exclusively singled out for nerfing because that was the original indication we used to say that this edition is too lethal. Then brings up drukhari and admech like that isn’t another indication the edition is too lethal. And proclaims that our argument is based solely on the tournament orks won in... despite several pages referencing how ineffectual terrain rules are, examples of other match ups, tournaments, and anecdotes. He even ignored responses at his convenience that addressed these issues.

 Sasori wrote:

Forceride wrote:
In my opinion your just bashing 2 good units while you ignore that all armies have good units, should we nerf them too? I can agree the Freeboota pushes it to the top but so far all i see is we won because we can counter drukkari and hard. that's it, even by your own report that's what i get out of it. We Hard counter Drukkari, if we are lucky we can win tournaments if we ourselves do not meet the armies that handle us well.

You act like there are not plenty of other good untis in the Ork codex. You still have amazing units like the Killrig, Wartrikes, Squigasaur, etc. let's do ourselves a favor here and not pretend like there are not other strong options available. If "Winning only because you counter Drukhari" is all you are getting by my posts you need to re-read it, because that is not at all what I said. Orks are also not "lucky" if they can win tournaments, otherwise they would not be doing so consistently.

Don't be disingenuous, you know full well that viable is different from competitive. Yes we have a lot of viable units but a only a handful of competitive ones. There's a reason why we spam the same units. There's a reason why you barely see boy'z, lootas, noobz etc... GW made most of what was competitive before only viable and made buggies/flyers the default units of the codex for shooting. The units you just listed are most melee lists, currently our alpha list... speaks volumes of how much you know our codex. The squigasaur is not even competitive! Wartrike is not event taken for killing potential it's only for the speedwaagh buff.. make yourself a favour and go read our thread in our units viability!

I shrug when other armies don't account for the fact we are now vehicle/flyer heavy or fast alpha, that's the codex in the nutshell. That's why many orks are reacting this way because your taking away our only tools aka de-teething the codex ... if you don't have the tools you get stomped. Same happened to me when i was outmatched many times. I didn't came here and started screaming nerf, i learned the army strengths and tried to play around them.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

gungo wrote:
Excepts squadrons had nothing to do with the freak out at the SoCal.

While 4 units of single flyers (2 separate models as well) is a lot and not something I personally enjoy playing it’s not really spam. For reference I own 3 flyers and have played with all 3 before in ork lists in most instances it’s been a detriment even while using freebooter klan as a large portion of your army can’t claim objectives. I honestly never heard anyone have a problem with me using 3 flyers.
Ffs last edition a year ago people regularly used 3x flyers for the eadbutt stratagem. No one called it spam then either.

7th Ed I believe had a air wing detachment of 6 flyers for orks. Other armies tyranids, admech, necrons, etc regularly use more then 4 flyers but for orks it’s now considered spam okayyy.

And I don’t disagree with you about limiting aircraft to 3 total at 2000 points but you are going to butcher other armies not orks..

We are now in the territory of someone trying to use 7th edition to deflect from Ork issues in 9th.

Next he mentions worthless units that haven’t been good in 2 editions like squigasaur as other strong units. He thinks the wartrike is a good unit when the only reason people take it is that it is one of the only units that can call speed waaagh. He doesn’t even know what’s good or bad and making a bunch of uninformed comments…

The Squigosaur literally just got introduced this book. You really are arguing in bad faith aren't you?

My point was every single edition ork has used multiple flyers without issues I went back to 7th doesn’t mean I was basing my point on 7th. You are being disingenuous if you actually believe 7th Ed was the point I was making.

I mistakenly meant squiggoth not squigasaur… regardless the squigasaur has been available since July in most tournaments even though the model just went on sale a month ago…and it really hasn’t made much of an impact on tournaments since it doesn’t mix well with speedwaagh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

macluvin wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

gungo wrote:
Excepts squadrons had nothing to do with the freak out at the SoCal.

While 4 units of single flyers (2 separate models as well) is a lot and not something I personally enjoy playing it’s not really spam. For reference I own 3 flyers and have played with all 3 before in ork lists in most instances it’s been a detriment even while using freebooter klan as a large portion of your army can’t claim objectives. I honestly never heard anyone have a problem with me using 3 flyers.
Ffs last edition a year ago people regularly used 3x flyers for the eadbutt stratagem. No one called it spam then either.

7th Ed I believe had a air wing detachment of 6 flyers for orks. Other armies tyranids, admech, necrons, etc regularly use more then 4 flyers but for orks it’s now considered spam okayyy.

And I don’t disagree with you about limiting aircraft to 3 total at 2000 points but you are going to butcher other armies not orks..

We are now in the territory of someone trying to use 7th edition to deflect from Ork issues in 9th.

Next he mentions worthless units that haven’t been good in 2 editions like squigasaur as other strong units. He thinks the wartrike is a good unit when the only reason people take it is that it is one of the only units that can call speed waaagh. He doesn’t even know what’s good or bad and making a bunch of uninformed comments…

The Squigosaur literally just got introduced this book. You really are arguing in bad faith aren't you?

Don’t feed the troll. The dude loves to browse past arguments until he finds a hill he thinks is worth dying on like in the tournament discussion, thinking orks are exclusively singled out for nerfing because that was the original indication we used to say that this edition is too lethal. Then brings up drukhari and admech like that isn’t another indication the edition is too lethal. And proclaims that our argument is based solely on the tournament orks won in... despite several pages referencing how ineffectual terrain rules are, examples of other match ups, tournaments, and anecdotes. He even ignored responses at his convenience that addressed these issues.

Oh please just because I didn’t respond to your gak the last 4 hours as I was spending Halloween with my kids doesn’t mean I was ignoring your nonsense. But regardless you are not that special regardless what your mom tells you. You literally have no idea what you are talking about saying I troll the forum looking for discussions to argue about as I haven’t Argued on any discussions especially outside the ork forum in years. You are literally just making gak up becuase you don’t have a clue. I didn’t just bring up drukari and ad mech. I listed win rates for orks at 50%, I listed major tournament placings the last few weeks that show orks are not wiping out other armies regularly. And I listed all the other armies that have better placings and win rates then orks which does include ad mech and drukari but also grey knights, sisters, and other armies who placed just as well as orks such as death guard. You can cherry pick admech and drukari all you want but I listed several codexs with better placing and win rates since the ork codex came out. But you ignored all that and instead keep bringing up the socal list and occasionally mannys 18x buggy spam which took out almost 1000 points of the other army (again vs drukari) and wasn’t even using freebooters but instead bloodaxes and had zero aircraft (dakkajets/wazbom)…. And then use those 2 tournaments and say orks are regularly wiping out thier opponent first turn. Which is utter horsecrap. Not to mention both those lists are extremely difffrent 1 is shooty with heavy emphasis on speedwaagh and flyers and the other has a heavy assault mortal wound element.

Regarding your nonsense about orks ignoring terrain rules. Orks ignore 1 rule (obscuring) with 1 unit (squigbuggy) and has 1 weapon that shoots 36in and the rest shoot 18in or less. It’s also only str5. So the only troll is you as I haven’t attacked posters and needed to just make up gak about people and talk out my ass like you did.

Regardless Gw is apparently buffing speedwaagh not nerfing it as they are just throwing a bunch of new rules in the upcoming campaign book at it…. Not exactly the army list I was hoping would get buffed.

An answer to all flyers is needed as regardless of the codex they have obscene movement which combined with their basing allows flyers to ignore lots of terrain / LOS blocking.

So to tackle any effecient flyer = add a point premium, a CP tax, a max limit or a CP/point tax on subsequent picks (i.e. two Patrol detachment). Given GW previous balances, a simple point balance is most likely, of at anything.

Buggies aren't bad in melee? A whirlwind is bad in melee.

And Ramshackle.. is it a bit too strong when applied to very effecient vehicle wounds? Or is it irrelevant to the main issue which is the alpha strike? Has there been gaming winning beta strikes?

Fixing Freebooterz could be as simple as:

Each time a FREEBOOTERZ unit from your army destroys an enemy unit, after that unit’s attacks have been resolved, until the end of the phase, each time an attack is made by another FREEBOOTERZ unit with this kultur (excluding AIRCRAFT) from your army, add 1 to that attack’s hit roll.

So a Freebooterz aircraft could still trigger the ability, but cannot directly benefit from the ability. As for the Dakkajet, knock it up 10 points. Then with the 2 additional Supa-shootas that'd make it 130, same as the point cost as the Ad-Mech Fusilave (Fusilave's Bomb Rack needs to be nerfed to mortal wounds on a 5+).

Then finally, as a more general game balance change. I'd reduce the amount of Flyer slots in Patrols, Outriders, Vanguards, and Spearheads to 0 - 1 instead of 0 - 2.

Jarms48 wrote:
Fixing Freebooterz could be as simple as:

Each time a FREEBOOTERZ unit from your army destroys an enemy unit, after that unit’s attacks have been resolved, until the end of the phase, each time an attack is made by another FREEBOOTERZ unit with this kultur (excluding AIRCRAFT) from your army, add 1 to that attack’s hit roll.

So a Freebooterz aircraft could still trigger the ability, but cannot directly benefit from the ability. As for the Dakkajet, knock it up 10 points. Then with the 2 additional Supa-shootas that'd make it 130, same as the point cost as the Ad-Mech Fusilave (Fusilave's Bomb Rack needs to be nerfed to mortal wounds on a 5+).

Then finally, as a more general game balance change. I'd reduce the amount of Flyer slots in Patrols to 0 - 1 instead of 0 - 2.

This could work well. Especially since it would address both Ork and AdMech flyers. Other armies wouldn't be affected really as none of their flyers are spammed as heavily (in fact I'd argue that most of the other flyers in the game are seriously overcosted, but that's a discussion for another thread).

But is that even the problem?
They were also complaining of Mani’s 18x buggy list and that was bloodaxe not freebooter and had zero aircraft in the list..

It was also more of a shooty list with assault elements instead of all in on shooting.

Also the issue I saw at socal wasn’t just speedwaaagh shooting but the fact the player screened out assault using the flyers bases…limiting patrol to 0-1 wouldn’t have prevented that as well since he used 2x outrider detachments not patrol and had 2x aircraft in each outrider.

I’d raise dakkajets 15pts (5base and 5 per suppashoota), I’d raise squigbuggy 10pts, I’d allow player to assault and move on and through aircraft bases. (Yup that means allowing player to move models onto the aircraft base as of it was not there). I don’t think freebooters kultur is really the problem nor do I think the scrapjet is an issue. I’d probably raise the Killrig 10pts as well and that hasn’t even been a tourney issue yet. I’d make all detachments 0-1 aircraft except battalion/brigade 0-2. I mean 3 detachment lists can still have 3 flyers or battalion plus another detachment.

gungo wrote:
But is that even the problem?
They were also complaining of Mani’s 18x buggy list and that was bloodaxe not freebooter and had zero aircraft in the list..

That's why I'd remove squadron from buggies. That list was 18 buggies with only two flavours of buggies. That's the very definition of spam and spam is never good.

Does a squadron of 100ish ppm models make sense anyway? I think it doesn't.

About flyers I could be biased as I hate them and I'd never field more than one in 2000 points games. They sure are a type of models that I wish it were significantly limited regardless of how good they are. But since they bring several mehcanics problems when a bunch of effective flyers are part of a list I don't think it's really a personal thing when I call for capping the number of flyers allowed.

I’m fine with limiting it to 3. I only ever played 2-3. Last edition regularly used at least 2 for eadbutt strstegem. I’m not so sure this helps armies like Tyranids.

Well, limiting the strong Ork units is something GW will hardly consider.
There is no large scale evidence of the Ork's dominance at the tourney level.
Thus it appears we will have to live with it.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, limiting the strong Ork units is something GW will hardly consider.
There is no large scale evidence of the Ork's dominance at the tourney level.
Thus it appears we will have to live with it.

Honestly aircraft rules might change if someone keeps screening like that, but it really depends on how this new supplement buffs up an already strong list. I agree orks are mostly balanced to the top 5-6 codexs. But this list could become ad mech levels (or heaven forbid iron hands levels of bad with more tacked on rules from the new campaign). The army of renown really should have been dread Waagh or beast snagga…

 Niiai wrote:


GW for the most part do not tweak rules. (Rarly, mostly things like rule of tree in 8th edition. As well as scoring end of fifth turn and secondaries.) Too good units gets point increases. Underperforming units should get point decreases. (Unfortunately this later happen rarely. RIP all over costed unit out there.)

They do in Age of Sigmar.

It's weird how little 40k players seem to know how good Sigmar has it, and how little theyre interested in holding GW's feet to the fire and demanding products of just very very slightly less anti-consumer quality.

For a full edition sigmar had all unit stats free (you only had to buy the army book if you wanted the Matched Play specific rules like subfaction traits relics etc - new Sigmar players could actually play a real, functional game using the rules GW gave away for free - a wild, crazy way to get new players actually invested in building up armies, I know!

and instead of just piling on to the choo choo bloat train with the mid edition campaign books, Sigmar actually used them as an opportunity to update out of date unit stats and give under-performing categories of units a buff, all simultaneously.

For example: Monsters in sigmar 2.0 weren't doing so hot, so they added a special, faction-specific bonus trait similar to a warlord trait that you'd get on one monster in your army (because, of course, the ideal would be players gravitating towards an army with some infantry, some character, and some monster instead of incentivizing spamming)

I play what will soon be the oldest Age of Sigmar army I believe (idoneth) and of the units in my book, I've had updated datasheets for Eiodolons, Allopexes, Leviadons, and my faction terrain piece, as well as the points updates from generals handbooks.

Wait are you saying that rulechanges between editions? Well imagine my supriced face. Here I thought the only change in rules books between editions was to updatethe pictures.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Niiai wrote:


GW for the most part do not tweak rules. (Rarly, mostly things like rule of tree in 8th edition. As well as scoring end of fifth turn and secondaries.) Too good units gets point increases. Underperforming units should get point decreases. (Unfortunately this later happen rarely. RIP all over costed unit out there.)

They do in Age of Sigmar.

It's weird how little 40k players seem to know how good Sigmar has it, and how little theyre interested in holding GW's feet to the fire and demanding products of just very very slightly less anti-consumer quality.

For a full edition sigmar had all unit stats free (you only had to buy the army book if you wanted the Matched Play specific rules like subfaction traits relics etc - new Sigmar players could actually play a real, functional game using the rules GW gave away for free - a wild, crazy way to get new players actually invested in building up armies, I know!

and instead of just piling on to the choo choo bloat train with the mid edition campaign books, Sigmar actually used them as an opportunity to update out of date unit stats and give under-performing categories of units a buff, all simultaneously.

For example: Monsters in sigmar 2.0 weren't doing so hot, so they added a special, faction-specific bonus trait similar to a warlord trait that you'd get on one monster in your army (because, of course, the ideal would be players gravitating towards an army with some infantry, some character, and some monster instead of incentivizing spamming)

I play what will soon be the oldest Age of Sigmar army I believe (idoneth) and of the units in my book, I've had updated datasheets for Eiodolons, Allopexes, Leviadons, and my faction terrain piece, as well as the points updates from generals handbooks.

40k and AoS are effectively made by different companies. There is no talk and sharing of ideas between the 2 studio's.

 Ordana wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Niiai wrote:


GW for the most part do not tweak rules. (Rarly, mostly things like rule of tree in 8th edition. As well as scoring end of fifth turn and secondaries.) Too good units gets point increases. Underperforming units should get point decreases. (Unfortunately this later happen rarely. RIP all over costed unit out there.)

They do in Age of Sigmar.

It's weird how little 40k players seem to know how good Sigmar has it, and how little theyre interested in holding GW's feet to the fire and demanding products of just very very slightly less anti-consumer quality.

For a full edition sigmar had all unit stats free (you only had to buy the army book if you wanted the Matched Play specific rules like subfaction traits relics etc - new Sigmar players could actually play a real, functional game using the rules GW gave away for free - a wild, crazy way to get new players actually invested in building up armies, I know!

and instead of just piling on to the choo choo bloat train with the mid edition campaign books, Sigmar actually used them as an opportunity to update out of date unit stats and give under-performing categories of units a buff, all simultaneously.

For example: Monsters in sigmar 2.0 weren't doing so hot, so they added a special, faction-specific bonus trait similar to a warlord trait that you'd get on one monster in your army (because, of course, the ideal would be players gravitating towards an army with some infantry, some character, and some monster instead of incentivizing spamming)

I play what will soon be the oldest Age of Sigmar army I believe (idoneth) and of the units in my book, I've had updated datasheets for Eiodolons, Allopexes, Leviadons, and my faction terrain piece, as well as the points updates from generals handbooks.

40k and AoS are effectively made by different companies. There is no talk and sharing of ideas between the 2 studio's.

If you dont think the higher ups at Games Workshop are analyzing what the market will bear when it comes to things like manufactured discontent (how bad they can allow out of date units to become before their sales drop unacceptably) and applying it to both 40k (a game primarily about retaining an existing audience) and age of sigmar (a game primarily about growing a new audience) then I have a bridge to sell you.

There is a reason why loyalist, but not Chaos space marine factions got holdover rules moving them to the new wound paradigm. GW's rules releases are heavily tied to their market analytics, and they know which of their market segments will bear being left in an essentially unplayable state for a long period of time and which will impact their sales negatively if they dont continuously ensure that they stay somewhat competitive.

After playing some more games and trying to think of what a reasonable solution might be I think i came up with something that does address the freeboota buggie spam list while not nerfing it or the rest of the codex into the ground. Bringing back the rule of only being able to call a waaagh (or now speedwaaagh) turn 2 or later.

Also on the above comments about squigosaurs and squigriders they are ok, but a squig list cannot beat admech or drukari and having tried max squig rider armies... its just not strong enough, too few wounds on to delicate of models for the points they get shot up before they can do much. Killrig is alright but nto the end all OP thing people seem to think it was going to be. I 3d printed one before the codex was even out and found it usually earns back its points but its a distraction carnifex that dies soon after.

Given the current win rates for orks in tournaments its very dependent on a few good units (dakka jets and squigwagon and scrapjets) a lot of the codex is meh. All ork infantry ranges from only taken to get objectives and secondaries, to so terrible its not even good for that (looking at you our entire troop selection outside 1 unit of trukk boyz per detachment and only then due to a gimmick). All increasing points on the few good units will accomplish is taking orks from the middle of the pack back down to the bottom of the pack.

All that said I do think the Freeboota list as it is will be good for the meta as its hard countering drukari and people will i am sure keep bringing that. Drukari players adapting will have to change things up and thus not be able to destroy space marine, necrons and custodes as easily meaning a mroe balanced game. The alternative if bringing down Drukari and admec through rules balances and point adjustments but its been so long i do not think GW has any plans to fix them.

A big issue with the dakkajet is it's ROF output (at decent S and AP) for it's points cost. Compare to say a nephilim jetfighter.
However, the one other issue is ramshackle as almost the majority of weapons that are ideal for taking out air (and the ones actually designed for it) are S7 D2. So you actually have to heavily invest more into S8+ to get a reasonable return (or high ROF S4/5/6). Vs a 160pt fighter, I could live with that, but not the current dakkajet cost.

fortunately, my game vs them this weekend features a lot of that bracket firepower...overcharged plasma, MMs, twin assault cannon/twin hvy bolter, MC plasma cannon, and a cyclone. Now if i had more S7 weapons...ouch.