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Ultimately I think dakkajets could go up 15 points with killrigs and squigbuggies at least 10pts.

BUT now with orks getting a campaign book next week specifically for speedfreak and a bloodaxe codex I expect this build to change and freebooter might not even be the go to klan anymore… which should make Dakkajet spam less ideal… in other words if bloodaxe or evilsun buggy lists gets any noticeable boost it should dethrone freebooter. Bloodaxe is already almost as popular as freebooter klan for competitive 40K.

Why do people keep complaining about orks spamming stuff?, that’s literally the entire point of a horde army. Our actual horde lost a) good reliable buffs, b) got more expensive, and c) had their faction special rules nerfed. Because of this we switched to vehicle hordes.

Also, why all the hate towards fliers?, they seem pretty fine. I know anecdotes don’t hold up too well, but in my experience my fliers have always gotten shot down pretty well. I think you guys just don’t bring actual anti vehicle anymore, autocannon plinks are a thing of 7th.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Why do people keep complaining about orks spamming stuff?, that’s literally the entire point of a horde army. Our actual horde lost a) good reliable buffs, b) got more expensive, and c) had their faction special rules nerfed. Because of this we switched to vehicle hordes.

Also, why all the hate towards fliers?, they seem pretty fine. I know anecdotes don’t hold up too well, but in my experience my fliers have always gotten shot down pretty well. I think you guys just don’t bring actual anti vehicle anymore, autocannon plinks are a thing of 7th.

Aircraft do have the issue that they can block Charges, which is non-sensical.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Aircraft do have the issue that they can block Charges, which is non-sensical.

It is non sensical, but it's probably for gameplay reason. Imagine moving a bunch of units in close combat and trying to have them pile in, but the base gets in the way and then your opponents wants to move his plane next round. It's a bit messy and unpractical. Yes, it can lead to abuse like using those huge base for sreening, but removing that rule does lead to other problems too like calculating models affected by auras and moving things around.

At this point, since facing is irrelevant for shooting anyway. And planes are generally so difficult to interact with anyway. Just have the plane models stand at the edge of the the player board on turn 1 to represent them in flight coming in for their shooting or bombing run. Then on turn 2, they just fly in a straight line across to the other board edge and stay there at the very edge while doing their shooting, bombing run.

Turn 3, turn those flyers around and they do their shooting, bombing run again while flying back to the player board edge.

Turn 4, again turn around, flyers shooting bombing run to opponent board edge.

Turn 5, the planes have flown off. So, you get 3 turns of shooting with the planes on turn 2,3,4. And the planes don't get to do dumb things like move blocking stuff.

And opponent gets turn 1, 2, 3, 4 to shoot down those planes if he wants to.

If any enemy ground unit wants to come in from a board edge (like from deep strike or infiltrate) and somehow the two bases interact, the ground unit has priority, so literally move the plane base out of the way while keeping it on the board edge. Because the planes are just there to represent their presence in the air on the battlefield, their actual physical positioning is irrelevant. They are just "overhead".

epronovost wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Aircraft do have the issue that they can block Charges, which is non-sensical.

It is non sensical, but it's probably for gameplay reason. Imagine moving a bunch of units in close combat and trying to have them pile in, but the base gets in the way and then your opponents wants to move his plane next round. It's a bit messy and unpractical. Yes, it can lead to abuse like using those huge base for sreening, but removing that rule does lead to other problems too like calculating models affected by auras and moving things around.

Exactly, I wouldn't allow my opponent to put his models over my flyer's base miniature if GW decided to fix the problem that way. That would be too annoying.

Easiest fix would be to limit such flyers to 1 or 2 in 2000 points games. After all they're basically centerpiece models due to their sizes. I'd handle them as superheavies maybe, with their own 1 slot detachment for 1CP.

Fixes for plane base issues
- allow movement onto base as if it’s not there
- allow assault through base, letting units hit other units within 1in of aircraft base.
- treat aircraft like all other vehicles allowing assault on flyers even if you don’t have fly, not realistic

I mean this is one of the main reasons why people are freaking out over socal but instead just blaming ork codex. Had this guy not abused flyer base rules he would have lost 3 buggies and not killed as many drukari first turn. It’s janky abuse of rules that needs to be fixed. Limiting it to 2-3 flyers doesn’t fix this issue.

Nayden took the same list to Battle for Salvation and one of my friends spoke to him and he presumably confessed to taking that list as a bit of a meme. Venoms are a lot easier to kill in one go than raiders, but Ork list brutalizes DE.

These were the Ork player scores:

86 to 24 v Salamanders
95 to 49 v DW
98 to 33 v GK
100 to 32 v Sisters
46 to 96 Admech
100 to 10 DE

This Ork list absolutely mulches DE ( and hammers most everything else ), but lost to Admech ( likely went second ), which just cements Admech as the real problem army ( in my mind ) with flyers in general being the next big issue then raiders / buggies.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Nayden took the same list to Battle for Salvation and one of my friends spoke to him and he presumably confessed to taking that list as a bit of a meme. Venoms are a lot easier to kill in one go than raiders, but Ork list brutalizes DE.

These were the Ork player scores:

86 to 24 v Salamanders
95 to 49 v DW
98 to 33 v GK
100 to 32 v Sisters
46 to 96 Admech
100 to 10 DE

This Ork list absolutely mulches DE ( and hammers most everything else ), but lost to Admech ( likely went second ), which just cements Admech as the real problem army ( in my mind ) with flyers in general being the next big issue then raiders / buggies.

are buggies an issue? or is it a clan rule letting them get ~50% more hits than they were designed for? changing the buggies makes them worse for everybody when it seems (to me anyway) if anything the freeboota trait is the issue.

gungo wrote:
Ultimately I think dakkajets could go up 15 points with killrigs and squigbuggies at least 10pts.

BUT now with orks getting a campaign book next week specifically for speedfreak and a bloodaxe codex I expect this build to change and freebooter might not even be the go to klan anymore… which should make Dakkajet spam less ideal… in other words if bloodaxe or evilsun buggy lists gets any noticeable boost it should dethrone freebooter. Bloodaxe is already almost as popular as freebooter klan for competitive 40K.

Ugg. Ugg. Ugg. Uuuuuuugggggg.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

are buggies an issue? or is it a clan rule letting them get ~50% more hits than they were designed for? changing the buggies makes them worse for everybody when it seems (to me anyway) if anything the freeboota trait is the issue.

They do pretty well without Freebooterz. I don't think they should be nerfed in accordance with Freebooter capability though. I almost think they should change it to the next unit that shoots gets +1 to hit and then they have to kill again to activate another bonus.

But that could make them potentially useless so...bleh.

Bggies do pretty well yes, they are a good unit for the points in the codex. When i run them with my evil sunz as a speed freeks theme with a bunch of bikes I don't think any of my opponents have ever thought the buggies were OP and my group is pretty free about calling out bed unit design or things being crazy good for the points.

Honestly, if i could change one thing about 8th and 9th i would take away all of these layered chapter/clan rules from every codex. It just means that one thing will stack on top of units and make for some broken things. then the response is usually units that work for that strong sub faction keyword being nerfed themselves making them terrible for other armies that were using them.

i'm fine with layering rules when theyre subtle. Adding to damage output is usually not subtle, while say +1 to move, ability to traverse a terrain type easier, better overwatch, attack range, or objective/action based perks are subtle.
When they add blanketed +1 AP, attack, hit, wound, or rerolls it gets problematic.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i'm fine with layering rules when theyre subtle. Adding to damage output is usually not subtle, while say +1 to move, ability to traverse a terrain type easier, better overwatch, attack range, or objective/action based perks are subtle.
When they add blanketed +1 AP, attack, hit, wound, or rerolls it gets problematic.

in theory I agree with you, the problem is there is almost always a stand out one or 2 that just make the others irrelevant. take last ork codex and every army was deathskulls. .. whould i do +1 move ... or reroll 1 to hit, 1 to shoot, one damage, and a 6+ invulnerable for the whole army. suddenly every ork army was deathskulls and now its all freebootaz. personally i think freebootaz should have been +1 shot to dakka type weapons or 1 reroll to hit per unit

See and the last codex deathskullz was just poor valuing of what is actually strong.
For some reason Deathskullz got like 5 perks (6++, reroll 1 hit, reroll 1 wound, reroll 1 damage, infantry obsec). Everyone else got at most 2, and usually one of them was extremely situational if not flatout bad.
Heck deathskullz single die reroll because of the wound and damage outdamaged badmoonz in shooting who rerolls all 1s to hit, because aside from Boyz, Lootas (that rolled a 3), and Dakkajets nothing shot enough shots for the reroll 1s to outpace the 1 reroll in all phases of an attack. Plus, it worked in melee, badmoonz didnt. Had the Badmoonz one worked in melee too we might've seen badmoonz as often since their melee would be unusually lethal, despite not being goff lol. Which just attests to a blanket reroll can be too much.

Last codex made no sense with kultures, in several ways not just that one. This one is 'slightly' better but still has some issues floating around, most notably half of snakebites doesnt work except on 3 units in the entire army and Freeboota +1 to hit is nuts when our guns are actually strong w/o it now.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Nayden took the same list to Battle for Salvation and one of my friends spoke to him and he presumably confessed to taking that list as a bit of a meme. Venoms are a lot easier to kill in one go than raiders, but Ork list brutalizes DE.

These were the Ork player scores:

86 to 24 v Salamanders
95 to 49 v DW
98 to 33 v GK
100 to 32 v Sisters
46 to 96 Admech
100 to 10 DE

This Ork list absolutely mulches DE ( and hammers most everything else ), but lost to Admech ( likely went second ), which just cements Admech as the real problem army ( in my mind ) with flyers in general being the next big issue then raiders / buggies.

are buggies an issue? or is it a clan rule letting them get ~50% more hits than they were designed for? changing the buggies makes them worse for everybody when it seems (to me anyway) if anything the freeboota trait is the issue.

Speedwaah is also a big part. We know from Space Marines 2.0 what giving an army a (near) blanket -1 AP does and they also made it add extra shots for even more facepalm.

I think Freebootaz kulture could probably be changed to +1 to hit within 12" of the destroyed target, or reroll 1s to hit after destroying.

These aren't as overtuned as the current version, but are by no means weak or bad.

Regardless, I still prefer Blood Axes for splashable buggies. Freebootaz kind of requires you to go all in on spam units, whereas Blood Axes is just generally good on everything.


Waaagh and Speedwaaagh maybe could be changed to exclude flyers. Supersonic jets being able to accurately see what their colleagues on the ground are getting up to feels appropriate for pretty much everything but Orks.

Ork pilots are usually the best of the best, read deff skwadron.

On the topic of planes though, a ton of armies have things dedicated to taking out aircraft, why not go with those?, they seem prevalent enough in the meta to be useful.
You can also just take some s8 shooting, anything melta demolishes buggies.

people dont like using dedicated AA weapons because if you dont face one its 'dead weight'

Anything that shakes up the cookiecutter list, whether its actually OP or not, causes flaming threads to pop up.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Nayden took the same list to Battle for Salvation and one of my friends spoke to him and he presumably confessed to taking that list as a bit of a meme. Venoms are a lot easier to kill in one go than raiders, but Ork list brutalizes DE.

These were the Ork player scores:

86 to 24 v Salamanders
95 to 49 v DW
98 to 33 v GK
100 to 32 v Sisters
46 to 96 Admech
100 to 10 DE

This Ork list absolutely mulches DE ( and hammers most everything else ), but lost to Admech ( likely went second ), which just cements Admech as the real problem army ( in my mind ) with flyers in general being the next big issue then raiders / buggies.

are buggies an issue? or is it a clan rule letting them get ~50% more hits than they were designed for? changing the buggies makes them worse for everybody when it seems (to me anyway) if anything the freeboota trait is the issue.

I mean speedwaagh winning isn’t just freebooter. The only other example of speed Waagh first turn being to strong is mannys 18x buggy spam list which cleared 1000 pts (again drukari) in the final. His list consisted of 2 buggies: squigbuggy, scrapjet and a big Mek… it was bloodaxe klan not freebooter and had no fliers… it also hasn’t won since that major tournament. But then again there isn’t a whole lot of examples of speedwaagh wiping out 75%+ of a players army turn 1 in major tournaments. Just 1 real example that abused flyer bases and a bunch of uninformed speculations.

Regardless I think freebooter isn’t the issue and won’t be for long. This campaign book is going to boost nonfreebooter ork speedwaagh and will likely result in squigbuggies needing a point hike. Maybe scrapjets too but they really aren’t that much better then Other buggies.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
See and the last codex deathskullz was just poor valuing of what is actually strong.
For some reason Deathskullz got like 5 perks (6++, reroll 1 hit, reroll 1 wound, reroll 1 damage, infantry obsec). Everyone else got at most 2, and usually one of them was extremely situational if not flatout bad.
Heck deathskullz single die reroll because of the wound and damage outdamaged badmoonz in shooting who rerolls all 1s to hit, because aside from Boyz, Lootas (that rolled a 3), and Dakkajets nothing shot enough shots for the reroll 1s to outpace the 1 reroll in all phases of an attack. Plus, it worked in melee, badmoonz didnt. Had the Badmoonz one worked in melee too we might've seen badmoonz as often since their melee would be unusually lethal, despite not being goff lol. Which just attests to a blanket reroll can be too much.

Last codex made no sense with kultures, in several ways not just that one. This one is 'slightly' better but still has some issues floating around, most notably half of snakebites doesnt work except on 3 units in the entire army and Freeboota +1 to hit is nuts when our guns are actually strong w/o it now.

Deathskullz got valued that way in 8th, because of the SSAG. Everyone was really just after rerolls on high impact low shot weapons.

What makes Freebooterz notable now is that it did change to remove the 24" restriction. Getting a Dakkajet an angle on a weak unit is a super easy way to trigger a table-wide bonus.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
See and the last codex deathskullz was just poor valuing of what is actually strong.
For some reason Deathskullz got like 5 perks (6++, reroll 1 hit, reroll 1 wound, reroll 1 damage, infantry obsec). Everyone else got at most 2, and usually one of them was extremely situational if not flatout bad.
Heck deathskullz single die reroll because of the wound and damage outdamaged badmoonz in shooting who rerolls all 1s to hit, because aside from Boyz, Lootas (that rolled a 3), and Dakkajets nothing shot enough shots for the reroll 1s to outpace the 1 reroll in all phases of an attack. Plus, it worked in melee, badmoonz didnt. Had the Badmoonz one worked in melee too we might've seen badmoonz as often since their melee would be unusually lethal, despite not being goff lol. Which just attests to a blanket reroll can be too much.

Last codex made no sense with kultures, in several ways not just that one. This one is 'slightly' better but still has some issues floating around, most notably half of snakebites doesnt work except on 3 units in the entire army and Freeboota +1 to hit is nuts when our guns are actually strong w/o it now.

Deathskullz got valued that way in 8th, because of the SSAG. Everyone was really just after rerolls on high impact low shot weapons.

What makes Freebooterz notable now is that it did change to remove the 24" restriction. Getting a Dakkajet an angle on a weak unit is a super easy way to trigger a table-wide bonus.

OK, bring back the 24" restriction.

It'll change literally nothing. I'll fly a single dakkajet into the middle of the table, shoot one thing, and the whole board will have the buff.

the 24" range thing was just fiddly.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
people dont like using dedicated AA weapons because if you dont face one its 'dead weight'

Anything that shakes up the cookiecutter list, whether its actually OP or not, causes flaming threads to pop up.

I actively promote Heldrakes and Traktor Kannons, personally.

Marines don't have it too great though.

A Hunter seems great on paper, but needing to save CP in the even you flub the wound roll is a bit annoying at 110 points - moreso if they spike a 5+ or 6+ save. A Stalker pushes the same number of shots at ground targets as two suppressors for 115. That's a lot of premium to double your shots versus aircraft.

If I were guaranteed to hit flyers in a tournament I'd start learning towards grabbing a Hunter, but the hardest part would be figuring out what HS slot to open up.

Yeah the 24" bubble didnt do anything more than annoy people. It was a 24" bubble focused on the target that got a kill, the moment something else got a kill theres a 2nd 24" bubble.
Only way it actually got in the way was when you had random units across the board, which gunlines never really do anyway.

For orks, if we have something off on its own its probably kommandoz, stormboyz, or meganobz. None of which are really factoring here.

 the_scotsman wrote:

OK, bring back the 24" restriction.

It'll change literally nothing. I'll fly a single dakkajet into the middle of the table, shoot one thing, and the whole board will have the buff.

the 24" range thing was just fiddly.

Fiddly, yes. I agree the rule is "better" now, but it still creates a problem. There should be some limitation there.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

OK, bring back the 24" restriction.

It'll change literally nothing. I'll fly a single dakkajet into the middle of the table, shoot one thing, and the whole board will have the buff.

the 24" range thing was just fiddly.

Fiddly, yes. I agree the rule is "better" now, but it still creates a problem. There should be some limitation there.

There is a limitation there. Until you destroy a unit, you have no subfaction trait. When the normal damage that a unit could output was roughly 25% of their value before using stratagems, you would have to either choose:

-do I burn my CP to get the initial unit kill, and use it less efficiently?

-do I wait to use my CP until after, in which case more of my units have attacked without a subfaction trait bonus?

Now that normal firepower is more like 50% value, you pick one unit, you pick one enemy unit worth roughly half as much, and you blow them away with a single shooting attack.

The people scratching their heads going "Hmmm what could possibly have changed here" are really quite amusing tbh.

I'lll give you a hint:

<.<

>.>

games workshop made everything in the codex do more damage for its cost. Like theyve done with most units in most 9e codexes.

I’m just going to wait til Saturday when we get the full campaign leaks and either evil suns or bloodaxe rules have people forgetting about freebooters which isn’t the real problem.

The big change to the freebootaz trait was that not needing to be in range of something let you affect models in transports. Niche as heck but certainly fun. The idea of a bunch of freebootaz driving around in transports unloading dakka makes me smile.

But nerfing it is hard since it's incredibly meta reliant and swingy. Your opponent is MSU? Yeah you get the trait off easy. Your opponent is knights? Some turns it may not even trigger.

The person I play frequently made a few mistakes here and there, let me trigger it by firing off a single Dakkajet Supashoota by having a single model/wound plasmacyte hanging out in an awkward spot. But if your opponent is one of those few nutjobs taking big, chunky units then well, your list is not going to function great.

The proper way to implement flying units:

cody.d. wrote:


But nerfing it is hard since it's incredibly meta reliant and swingy. Your opponent is MSU? Yeah you get the trait off easy. Your opponent is knights? Some turns it may not even trigger.

You play 1000 points or lower? Trait may not trigger at all. Do you play mixed klans army, say 50% goffs and 50% freebooters (which is what I actually play )? Trait may not trigger at all.

So yeah, it's extremely meta reliant and swingy. A full 2000 points freebooters army that spams the best shooting units can cause devastation, sure but otherwise the trait might be the worst in the entire codex. Nerfing it would mean killing the klan off completely outside a few gimmick lists maybe, which would be bad.

Correct the gimmicks, nerfs the skew lists, not the core klan/faction rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I actively promote Heldrakes and Traktor Kannons, personally.

Traktor Kannons are incredibly useful, among the 3 mek gunz I typically play one is always a traktor. Even against lists with no aircraft they're cheap enough to be worthy of their points cost, and against vehicles with FLY, which are very common for drukhari, craftworlds, space marines and harlequins they still get a damage bonus. They're also the only ork unit that natively hit on 3s.

 Niiai wrote:
This is not about the sky is falling. Or 'crying about drukahri losing to orks' gungo puts it. At leats not me.

If the orks need a nerf, and I am not saying they do, how do you fix it? Point increases to balance for cealings means that floors get really low.

Picture the following senario: Freeboters in speedwhaaag becomes the premiere way to play orks. GW responds by increasing points on all shooting units to the point where it becomes balanced for these lists. Would this not put the units out of reach for cassual players who are not running freeboters. Going from BS5 to 4 seems like such a huge gap. (Also, this works in melee as well, right? Hitting on 2's.)

Since there is to much attacking each other going on right now, I'll go back to the OP and answer.

First of all, do orks need a nerf? Probably. But not a big one and not for the reason most people here listed.

Right now, when you go through top placing lists, there is just one single theme. Spam squig buggies, scrap jets and planes and play whatever the heck you feel like for the rest of your army. From killrigs to burnas to lootas to random collections of other buggies, pretty much every somewhat decent ork unit has benn in a top 10 list somewhere. And it's not just freebootas. Despite goonhammer slapping the archetype "Freebootas" on every army list that has more than two buggies in it, many of them are actually running different clans - deff skulls, blood axes, evils suns and even some bad moons are doing great with the same units. And despite all that, there are still some people playing goff melee lists to top 10 finishes.
Goonhammer clearly don't have a veteran ork players among their writers and this is just one of many places where it shows. Especially for those not playing orks themselves, it's incredibly important to take everything they write and say about orks with a grain of salt.

So what to nerf?
Both from tournament results and personal experience, I think the squigbuggy is way too good when spammed. If you mathhammer a single one against any target of your choice, it just seems like a slightly above average units. However, in actual gameplay, it just solves too many problems at once. It excels at blowing up cheap scoring units, elite infantry, nothing can hide from it while it can hide out of sight, it has long range (for orks, anyways), good AP, it doesn't need join the traffic jam buggies tend to cause to be efficient and it's not a complete push-over in combat. In addition it also happens that its guns are most efficient against the current ringleaders' base stat lines. So in my opinion, that awesome package is totally worth 105 points.

The second cannidate is the scrapjet, despite being the best buggy of the old codex, it got a metric ton of buffs when moving to the new codex and still got cheaper. Slapping another 5 points for all those rokkit and big shoota shots (buffed by speedwaaagh nonetheless) won't break any of lists where people are just running a few of them, but will hurt for those spamming 9.

Last on my list would be the dakkajet. In friendly games I have to upgrade it with it's terrible kustom job just to make it more fair to play against. It's definitely a monster that can go anywhere on the board and just shred any infantry you want gone. The added utility of being able to deny alpha-charges does exist, but that's just one of the odd parts of 9th's rules, and I doubt you will find a huge amount of people wanting first turn charges to be easier. It's not like drukhari are lacking in tools to destroy planes in a single turn, so if someone decides to pick skew over TAC to maximize their chances of going to the top tables, they should be aware that a strategy like that can backfire.

My suggestion for the dakkajet would be to increase it by 15, while at the same time dropping the moar dakka kustom job for them down to 5/10 (dakkajets pay 10). This would leave a single dakkajet at a similar power level as it is now, while all further ones are less efficient. It also makes the very swingy kustom job an actual option instead of a dud. Raising it points by much more than 15 points doesn't really make sense, burna bommers would just take their place as without the +1 to hit there really isn't much difference between them anymore.

I wouldn't nerf Freebootas themselves at all. It's just the clan that currently fits the meta best, no more, no less. With plenty of cheap easy-to-kill units around, it's super easy to trigger the trait, but no one knows what happens when the nids, craftworld eldar, IG or knights get their codices. Once orks are regularly facing the challenge of having to blow up durable vehicles and monsters to trigger their trait, there is a good chance of Freebootas simply dropping off the competitive radar again, just like they did in 8th when you were almost guaranteed to face durable and expensive units. There is a reason why orks aren't doing to well against Death Guard, Custodes and Dark Angels Death Wing in tournaments.

People who aren't into orks too well will probably cry for more nerfs, but let's be real. Orks sit at 54-56% win rate depending on which sources you are looking at and there are a great number of people playing the faction, so it's not some freak accident like the two people randomly winning tournaments with Ynnari. According to goonhammer there also has been a similar growth in players that play the faction as there has been to other books like DG, TS, or admech. Therefore the data is very unlikely to be more or less skewed than those armies we compare them against.
With my proposed changes, the spam lists will take a hit of ~180 points which will likely not lead them to drop whole models, but they will likely try to keep a similar wound and model count. Instead, they will move to more varied lists that are slightly less lethal and inevitable. There are plenty of good options in the book which are currently just hidden behind the power of the squigbuggy.