Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Jidmah wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
eh.

Of the 3 armies that got nerfs, I'm the least worried about the Orks dropping below 50%.

We still have yet to even see what people do with the new army of renown rules, which let me remind folks, turns the defensive profile of buggies to:

-T6
-4+ 5++
-subtract 1 from damage for any <S7 weaponry

In one man's humble opinion, that's still a pretty spicy meatball.>

Try building a list from that army with the new restrictions.
You essentially lose access to almost all the units that make buggies work and that you can no longer have more than two planes.

Aw man I lose access to the big mek in mega armor that stinks that was my once...per game...5++ on all my...oh right.

IIRC the restriction was "no infantry" so lets go with

2x outriders (Freebootas)

Deffkilla
Warboss on Warbike (killa klaw, BBK, could go for the squigosaur boss too tho)

3x3 bikers
3x Squigbuggies
1x Scrapjet
1x KBB
1x Dragsta
1x Wazbom with shield and tellyports
1x dakkajet with all the guns
6x rokkit koptas because you know i'm using that untargetable kopta stratagem
4x1 Kustom Mega Kannons

we're at about 1850 here. You could throw in more obsec bikers, or give your bikers more teeth since you do have that +1A bonus now which might be nice to have. Could up some of those singleton buggies to twofers, you've got space to play.

 Third_Age_of_Baggz wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
2+ Leman Russ
But no 2+ Baneblade.

I know...right!? What a missed opportunity.

3 months for them to change it if they do.

 LunarSol wrote:
I overall like the Ork change. Rule of 3 is as much something good for balance as it is for giving players reasonable purchase insurance. 9x of each buggies was always going to turn into an awful investment to breed resentment and I'm glad to see it was done in a way to keep the purchases reasonable, without limiting Ork Fast Attack entirely. The real problem was that it was allowed to fester this way for too many years before biting the bullet.

They didn't use the rule of 3 to fix this though. Instead, they invented a new rule that does everything worse than the rule of 3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_scotsman wrote:
Aw man I lose access to the big mek in mega armor that stinks that was my once...per game...5++ on all my...oh right.

IIRC the restriction was "no infantry" so lets go with

2x outriders (Freebootas)

Deffkilla
Warboss on Warbike (killa klaw, BBK, could go for the squigosaur boss too tho)

3x3 bikers
3x Squigbuggies
1x Scrapjet
1x KBB
1x Dragsta
1x Wazbom with shield and tellyports
1x dakkajet with all the guns
6x rokkit koptas because you know i'm using that untargetable kopta stratagem
4x1 Kustom Mega Kannons

we're at about 1850 here. You could throw in more obsec bikers, or give your bikers more teeth since you do have that +1A bonus now which might be nice to have. Could up some of those singleton buggies to twofers, you've got space to play.

The restriction is only speed freeks, WAGONs (no FW kannowagons though) and planes.

No kannon. No squigosaur. So you are at ~1650.

There are more xenos expansions planned in early 2022, and the next edition of Chapter Approved, so things are going to get even better!

Curious what this means. The big rumour dump only mentioned Eldar & Tau. Might mean that CWE will be out early next year too.

Could we also see new Ynarii rules in Chapter Approved?

This is upsetting for me.

Quarterly updates will lead to mass confusion. No one there at GW is thinking any of this through or considering the outcome.

1. Flyers should have had a dedicated detachment like fortifications from day one.

2. There is already a datasheet quantity cap. Buggies should just not be able to be in units of more than one.

3. An extra attack for CSM. Not an additional wound. WTF? I'm sorry for all the CSM players. Normally I'm tone def to your incessant whining, but even I felt the slap to the face on this one.

At this point I feel it's time to start making some personnel changes with the GW rules team. It's just one terrible, incompetent decision after another.

 Sasori wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
Ork nerfs seem like an elegant way to handle the problem, without points nerfs. We'll have to see if that's a enough.

They... just completely killed off the winning list? I wouldn't call that "elegant", especially since it effectively prevents the use of kustom jobs, one of the most liked ork mechanic of 8th.

They could just have made buggy units 1 model only for the same effect and cause less collateral damage.

That probably would have worked too. I thought this would be a more pleasing solutions for Ork players since they can still take the units, but without a points hike.

I think no matter what option GW went with, people would complain about it.

You assume no points hike..
According to rumors that is still coming in chapter approved we just get the luxury of paying for those nerfs unlike admech and drukari…
This was simply an emergency nerf because 2 weeks ago an ork list won a tournament after 6 months of ad mech and drukari dominance where they already planned a points hike for next month… orks get the luxury of a double nerf. A sloppy unit restriction and a points hike later. With the sloppy unit restriction doing little to stop ork first turn lethality. It did prevent mannys 18x buggy list but that was already out of preference. Remember socal list only had 3squigbuggies, 3scrapjets, 1 shokkjump, 1 kbb and 4 planes. (Down to 2)…
Outside of the plane restriction the list is the same.

Waiting on that second chaos marine wound /cobwebs

So why all the restrictions on flyers?, as an ork player I’d just take a little point bump on dakkas and the same on admech ones. I don’t see why a guard player can’t take 3 Arvus lighters if they want.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
So why all the restrictions on flyers?, as an ork player I’d just take a little point bump on dakkas and the same on admech ones. I don’t see why a guard player can’t take 3 Arvus lighters if they want.

Because knee jerk…
2 weeks ago an ork won a tournament and this an emergency nerf needed to be made.

 oni wrote:
This is upsetting for me.

Quarterly updates will lead to mass confusion. No one there at GW is thinking any of this through or considering the outcome.

1. Flyers should have had a dedicated detachment like fortifications from day one.

2. There is already a datasheet quantity cap. Buggies should just not be able to be in units of more than one.

3. An extra attack for CSM. Not an additional wound. WTF? I'm sorry for all the CSM players. Normally I'm tone def to your incessant whining, but even I felt the slap to the face on this one.

At this point I feel it's time to start making some personnel changes with the GW rules team. It's just one terrible, incompetent decision after another.

There used to be a flyer detachment and it was abused. This is better.

I find most of these changes to be pretty great descisions, so, to each their own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
So why all the restrictions on flyers?, as an ork player I’d just take a little point bump on dakkas and the same on admech ones. I don’t see why a guard player can’t take 3 Arvus lighters if they want.

Because it just prevents future issues. Just point bumping them would make them drop a buggy and the best lists would still stand. Same thing with Admech.

gungo wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
So why all the restrictions on flyers?, as an ork player I’d just take a little point bump on dakkas and the same on admech ones. I don’t see why a guard player can’t take 3 Arvus lighters if they want.

Because knee jerk…
2 weeks ago an ork won a tournament and this an emergency nerf needed to be made.

Yeah, I know all about the ork list. The problem was more the interaction between speedwaaagh, freebootas, and how dakkajets work.
I’m just zogged that I can’t run my flya skwadron list anymore just cause gw hates planes.
Also on the topic: why aren’t raiders limited to only 1, or admech vehicles?

gungo wrote:
Because knee jerk…
2 weeks ago an ork won a tournament and this an emergency nerf needed to be made.

Admech has been busting out flyers for longer. GW may not have even been considering Ork flyers when they wrote this, but it is good all the same.

gungo wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
So why all the restrictions on flyers?, as an ork player I’d just take a little point bump on dakkas and the same on admech ones. I don’t see why a guard player can’t take 3 Arvus lighters if they want.

Because knee jerk…
2 weeks ago an ork won a tournament and this an emergency nerf needed to be made.

admech flyers have been dominating for a while.

This entire thing just seems like the stereotypical evil villain sat in his gw balance throne looking at the internet and saying “ORKSSSS???, In myyyyyy meta?! Jenkins! send for the nerf team…”

Something like this always seems to happen when orks take the meta spotlight, still pourin one out for nob bikers.

 Jidmah wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I overall like the Ork change. Rule of 3 is as much something good for balance as it is for giving players reasonable purchase insurance. 9x of each buggies was always going to turn into an awful investment to breed resentment and I'm glad to see it was done in a way to keep the purchases reasonable, without limiting Ork Fast Attack entirely. The real problem was that it was allowed to fester this way for too many years before biting the bullet.

They didn't use the rule of 3 to fix this though. Instead, they invented a new rule that does everything worse than the rule of 3.

It's the rule of 3 from a purchase standpoint. If they removed the unit and put it as strict rule of 3, it would really limit the Mad Max design with each buggy eating up a huge chunk of available Fast Attack. Honestly, I think its a solid solution that would work well applied to guard tank lists as well along with an overall boost to the tanks. You get an army of that style of unit while diversifying the kind of models used.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 oni wrote:
This is upsetting for me.

Quarterly updates will lead to mass confusion. No one there at GW is thinking any of this through or considering the outcome.

1. Flyers should have had a dedicated detachment like fortifications from day one.

2. There is already a datasheet quantity cap. Buggies should just not be able to be in units of more than one.

3. An extra attack for CSM. Not an additional wound. WTF? I'm sorry for all the CSM players. Normally I'm tone def to your incessant whining, but even I felt the slap to the face on this one.

At this point I feel it's time to start making some personnel changes with the GW rules team. It's just one terrible, incompetent decision after another.

There used to be a flyer detachment and it was abused. This is better.

I find most of these changes to be pretty great descisions, so, to each their own.

Yes, but the old flyer detachment was under a system where detachments granted Command Points. The 9th system has detachments cost command points. An off the cuff example... A Flyer detachment could cost 4 CP and be 1 to 3 flyers. There's already a cap on how many detachments can be taken based on game size. It's more elegant solution IMO.

On another note, to comment on the Necron change.

4. Destroyers should gain CORE only if a Destroyer Lord is taken. This is again, a more elegant solution IMO.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
This entire thing just seems like the stereotypical evil villain sat in his gw balance throne looking at the internet and saying “ORKSSSS???, In myyyyyy meta?! Jenkins! send for the nerf team…”

Something like this always seems to happen when orks take the meta spotlight, still pourin one out for nob bikers.

Jeebus criminy who are you people, have they released a new green chapter of space marines or craftworld eldar with a ramshackle skull and crossbones aesthetic?

 oni wrote:


Yes, but the old flyer detachment was under a system where detachments granted Command Points. The 9th system has detachments cost command points. An off the cuff example... A Flyer detachment could cost 4 CP and be 1 to 3 flyers. There's already a cap on how many detachments can be taken based on game size. It's more elegant solution IMO.

On another note, to comment on the Necron change.

Orks had CP to spare and they would happily eat that cost.

4. Destroyers should gain CORE only if a Destroyer Lord is taken. This is again, a more elegant solution IMO

Always a possible future change. They don't need to be perfect - just better.

Were flyers that much of a problem? For SM and GK at least, the vast majority of them were overcoated like most non-dreadnought vehicles are right now.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Were flyers that much of a problem? For SM and GK at least, the vast majority of them were overcoated like most non-dreadnought vehicles are right now.

Admech and then eventually Ork flyers were, yes.

While I broadly welcome any attempt to try and bring more focus on balancing a notoriously unbalanced game, I can't help feeling that it's going to be "what we need here is a screwdriver, shall I fetch it?" "No, let's keep using the hammer, but more often."

 Azreal13 wrote:
While I broadly welcome any attempt to try and bring more focus on balancing a notoriously unbalanced game, I can't help feeling that it's going to be "what we need here is a screwdriver, shall I fetch it?" "No, let's keep using the hammer, but more often."

I can't really complain about the admech and drukhari updates. They even buffed some of the underperformers in the drukhari dex to give us more tools to make use of instead of having to lean fully into 200+ points of nerfs.

The ork nerf was obviously pretty slapped together, and the guard and knight stuff was clearly just kind of intended to be a couple of people-pleasers more so than really getting those factions to be major contenders.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Were flyers that much of a problem? For SM and GK at least, the vast majority of them were overcoated like most non-dreadnought vehicles are right now.

Admech and then eventually Ork flyers were, yes.

yeah, if GK and SM were taking zero fliers until this nerf, exactly what has changed?

@ Gungo, stop being disingenuous regarding the buggies list, it's not a single occurrence. And yes, the Socal list will change because those buggies will now have to be in a single unit.

Voss wrote:
Its _really weird_. This can't be in response to the survey, as its way too soon to collate that information and develop a coherent response, let alone do a balance pass. Which makes me wonder the point of the survey was (a post-hoc justification for what they were already planning?)

The biannual FAQ update was due in September, so I see this first balance dataslate as a substitute for that for the time being...

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Were flyers that much of a problem? For SM and GK at least, the vast majority of them were overcoated like most non-dreadnought vehicles are right now.

Because of the way the flyers (with the airborne rule) interact with the move and charge rules, they basically operate as (sort of) impassable terrain for melee units. You can move through the bases, but you can't end up on or near them. So you can basically block off entire sections of the battlefield and make units unreachable.

This pretty much hard counters melee armies. So, yeah, aircraft spam is a problem.
But its 100% a rules problem, as its a huge bubble of 'can't end moves' in engagement range of a flyers entire base (which is a 1" bubble all around a ~4.5"x3.5" base). If you park a flyer in front of a friendly unit, you've got a 6.5" barrier that's over five inches wide where enemies just can't go, and you can spread out your units on the other side of the flyer base so enemy models just can't get in there to get into melee. Now do that with 3 or 4 flyers: have a 24" long 'wall' providing a 5" wide no-go zone for your enemy. Add a few more flyers and you've got enough to cycle the wall in and out regardless of minimum movement. And since vehicle position doesn't matter for shooting, it doesn't limit the flyers in any way.

And that's an extreme example, with even just a few flyers, you can stop units from getting to your soft stuff, because the flyer base is just so big.

Its crazy, and its entirely a rules abstraction that doesn't need to exist. Aircraft obviously don't have any ability to prevent ground movement. Suppressing fire sure, but that isn't what this is about.

This is another classic GW 'we didn't think people would actually do that with the rules we wrote.'

No, it doesn't matter for more expensive flyers in some faction. But its still an exploit that doesn't need to exist.
Though the proper fix is 'aircraft have no engagement range and don't block movement'


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:

Voss wrote:
Its _really weird_. This can't be in response to the survey, as its way too soon to collate that information and develop a coherent response, let alone do a balance pass. Which makes me wonder the point of the survey was (a post-hoc justification for what they were already planning?)

The biannual FAQ update was due in September, so I see this first balance dataslate as a substitute for that for the time being...

Meh? That update schedule hasn't been relevant for quite a while. That the image erratas its own spring update and September was two months ago says a lot.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
While I broadly welcome any attempt to try and bring more focus on balancing a notoriously unbalanced game, I can't help feeling that it's going to be "what we need here is a screwdriver, shall I fetch it?" "No, let's keep using the hammer, but more often."

I can't really complain about the admech and drukhari updates. They even buffed some of the underperformers in the drukhari dex to give us more tools to make use of instead of having to lean fully into 200+ points of nerfs.

The ork nerf was obviously pretty slapped together, and the guard and knight stuff was clearly just kind of intended to be a couple of people-pleasers more so than really getting those factions to be major contenders.

I've been thinking that is exactly what knights needed to play the objective game instead of trying to push their faces in as fast as possible. It isn't a massive fix, but it does give incentive to the right things to make interesting lists ( of what you can make interesting with knights and baby knights ).

The guard stuff is more interesting and like Necrons opens up some interesting play.

 the_scotsman wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
So why all the restrictions on flyers?, as an ork player I’d just take a little point bump on dakkas and the same on admech ones. I don’t see why a guard player can’t take 3 Arvus lighters if they want.

Because knee jerk…
2 weeks ago an ork won a tournament and this an emergency nerf needed to be made.

admech flyers have been dominating for a while.

I mean more to my point.. ad mech flyers for 6 months was abused..
They planned a point hike for next month regardless…
Orks won 2 weeks ago and they make an emergency fix
And released the planned ad mech point hike early…
This was a knee jerk to orks winning 2 weeks ago.
Yes there was several speed waaaghs that did well before none of them used 4 flyers until 2 weeks ago.

You know, I appreciate the effort, even if it's only partially successful. GW are aware that game balance is not in a great state, that players aren't happy about it, and that a fix is overdue, so they act. That's a good thing. It's not a great fix, though, and the Ork buggy restriction is very poorly thought out. A more elegant fix was right there - drop squads - and they missed it. Let's hope for the next update.

Voss wrote:
This is another classic GW 'we didn't think people would actually do that with the rules we wrote.'

There isn't a simple solution to flyer bases. Putting models on top of them creates a problem when the flyer has to move. They could probably eliminate the 1" buffer for flyers though, but that could get confusing if say some assault marines were next to a flyer, but not actually in combat with it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 oni wrote:


Yes, but the old flyer detachment was under a system where detachments granted Command Points. The 9th system has detachments cost command points. An off the cuff example... A Flyer detachment could cost 4 CP and be 1 to 3 flyers. There's already a cap on how many detachments can be taken based on game size. It's more elegant solution IMO.

On another note, to comment on the Necron change.

Orks had CP to spare and they would happily eat that cost.

OK, but there is a cost.

Lets put all of my suggestions together for the Orks.
- Flyers are removed from all other detachments and given a dedicated detachment that costs 4 CP and is 1 to 3 flyers. We can place a detachment restriction stating that your army can only have one Flyer Detachment. Keep in mind that Flyers are all already units of 1 and there's already a cap on detachment quantity based on game size.
- Buggies are changed to be units of one.

In my mind it works out to be a better solution and has a better overall effect.

The Ork player will have access to one additional Flyer for Incursion and Strike Force games, but has to pay Command Points for it and will have fewer Buggies overall due to unit size of one, datasheet caps and detachment quantity caps (which the detachment caps also play into the Flyer issue). When the two changes are together there's some costs and some trade offs that happens during army creation.

Having Flyers removed from all other detachments and given a dedicated detachment that costs 4 CP and is 1 to 3 flyers works across the whole game too.