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This seems like it could be a big deal. Thoughts?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/09/game-balance-is-at-the-heart-of-this-official-warhammer-40000-rules-update/

Load of Necron units got the Core keyword added.

I’m guessing that’s probably a useful thing?

Its _really weird_. This can't be in response to the survey, as its way too soon to collate that information and develop a coherent response, let alone do a balance pass. Which makes me wonder the point of the survey was (a post-hoc justification for what they were already planning?)


As for the rest... mid-edition paradigm shift! Wooo!
But don't give chaos marines their second wound. That would be silly.

Core for Necrons makes me laugh. The reasons why they didn't have it were fluffy (insane things aren't a core part of the army), but it was just such a bad rules decision.

Voss wrote:
Its _really weird_. This can't be in response to the survey, as its way too soon to collate that information and develop a coherent response. Which makes me wonder the point of the survey was (a post-hoc justification for what they were already planning?)

But don't give chaos marines their second wound. That would be silly.

Come on, it's been over a year since they promised that!
All other Marines already got their second wound, including God-specific Chaos Marines like Rubrics or Plague Marines.

Voss wrote:
Its _really weird_. This can't be in response to the survey, as its way too soon to collate that information and develop a coherent response. Which makes me wonder the point of the survey was (a post-hoc justification for what they were already planning?)


As for the rest... mid-edition paradigm shift! Wooo!
But don't give chaos marines their second wound. That would be silly.

Core for Necrons makes me laugh. The reasons why they didn't have it were fluffy (insane things aren't a core part of the army), but it was just such a bad rules decision.

The Very Nice And Accurate Rumour List of Agnes Nutter points to CSM getting their full book pretty soon. So that’s…..something?

Huh, the AM stuff is certainly interesting. Multiple Orders, Orders on all Tanks and Russ's getting a 2+. Also, shocker that the "fix" for CSM does jack.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Voss wrote:
Its _really weird_. This can't be in response to the survey, as its way too soon to collate that information and develop a coherent response. Which makes me wonder the point of the survey was (a post-hoc justification for what they were already planning?)


As for the rest... mid-edition paradigm shift! Wooo!
But don't give chaos marines their second wound. That would be silly.

Core for Necrons makes me laugh. The reasons why they didn't have it were fluffy (insane things aren't a core part of the army), but it was just such a bad rules decision.

The Very Nice And Accurate Rumour List of Agnes Nutter points to CSM getting their full book pretty soon. So that’s…..something?

It is something. SOON(tm) is one of my favorite somethings!
But if you're doing updates anyway and its definitely temporary until the soon-to-be-new codex... just throw that bone already.

I'm not seeing a ton of point changes for AdMech and DEldar

Marshal & manipulus +10pts, skitarii infantry +1ppm, sicarians +2ppm, ironstriders +10pts, flyers +20pts
Kastellans down 10ppm

Archon +10pts, Succubus +20pts, Wyches +2ppm, flyers up a bit

Voss wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Voss wrote:
Its _really weird_. This can't be in response to the survey, as its way too soon to collate that information and develop a coherent response. Which makes me wonder the point of the survey was (a post-hoc justification for what they were already planning?)


As for the rest... mid-edition paradigm shift! Wooo!
But don't give chaos marines their second wound. That would be silly.

Core for Necrons makes me laugh. The reasons why they didn't have it were fluffy (insane things aren't a core part of the army), but it was just such a bad rules decision.

The Very Nice And Accurate Rumour List of Agnes Nutter points to CSM getting their full book pretty soon. So that’s…..something?

It is something. SOON(tm) is one of my favorite somethings!
But if you're doing updates anyway and its definitely temporary until the soon-to-be-new codex... just throw that bone already.

They did, but Karanak got all over excited and retrieved it.

The limit on planes is nice, but still having 2 will not affect orks or admech that much.
The admech and drukhari points changes will add up during full list design.
Buggy change not going to make a huge difference IMHO.

 xttz wrote:
I'm not seeing a ton of point changes for AdMech and DEldar

Marshal & manipulus +10pts, skitarii infantry +1ppm, sicarians +2ppm, ironstriders +10pts, flyers +20pts
Kastellans down 10ppm

Archon +10pts, Succubus +20pts, Wyches +2ppm, flyers up a bit

Damnit, i hoped they would make them less powerfull, not more costly.

Good to see, albeit a bit slap dash. Sorts Orks out and fixes Necrons' lack of CORE nicely enough.

Don't know what the points changes do for AdMech and DE though, it isn't the infantry that are the problem, it's the cheap transports.

Voss wrote:
Its _really weird_. This can't be in response to the survey, as its way too soon to collate that information and develop a coherent response, let alone do a balance pass. Which makes me wonder the point of the survey was (a post-hoc justification for what they were already planning?)


As for the rest... mid-edition paradigm shift! Wooo!
But don't give chaos marines their second wound. That would be silly.

Core for Necrons makes me laugh. The reasons why they didn't have it were fluffy (insane things aren't a core part of the army), but it was just such a bad rules decision.

Maybe this has been in the works for a while (It is 3 pages, 2 of which come directly from the next chapter approved) and is intended for the next codex's anyway (Which will already be finished) so other than the flier and Ork rule, it's just porting over.

Additionally, the balance update could have originally been intended as once per year, or 6 months and now from the survey it is going to be every 3 months etc.

 xttz wrote:
I'm not seeing a ton of point changes for AdMech and DEldar

Marshal & manipulus +10pts, skitarii infantry +1ppm, sicarians +2ppm, ironstriders +10pts, flyers +20pts
Kastellans down 10ppm

Archon +10pts, Succubus +20pts, Wyches +2ppm, flyers up a bit

That's a good thing. No more nerfhammer, but some adjustments up in cost to see if that helps curb them without cratering them.

Russe going up a save is nice, but the long term fix for vehicle survivability is to bump vehicle toughness across the board.

Gert wrote:Huh, the AM stuff is certainly interesting. Multiple Orders, Orders on all Tanks and Russ's getting a 2+. Also, shocker that the "fix" for CSM does jack.

I wouldn't call an average increase of 7 attacks on the charge for a squad of 10 Warp Talons "jack", but it isn't really what CSM needed. Killing things isn't our problem, it's not getting killed ourselves. Nice to see that they finally are giving the Guards MBT the save it deserves though.

xttz wrote:I'm not seeing a ton of point changes for AdMech and DEldar

Marshal & manipulus +10pts, skitarii infantry +1ppm, sicarians +2ppm, ironstriders +10pts, flyers +20pts
Kastellans down 10ppm

Archon +10pts, Succubus +20pts, Wyches +2ppm, flyers up a bit

Dark Lance Raiders up 10 PPM.

GW in full-blown panic mode these days.

"most play-tested edition ever"

It’s…..it’s almost as if the amount of time they can spend playtesting is insignificant compared to the number of games played in the first month of an Edition or Codex’s release?

But it can’t be that. Can it.

This is pretty nice, I'm quite happy with this update for the most part.

Ad Mech getting hit by points increases across the board and limited flyers I think this update will finally dethrone them.

The Dark Eldar seemed a much lighter touch than I was expecting, but we will see. The Aircraft nerf doesn't really affect them. We'll see if this update just means they stop taking raiders and move fully into venoms.

Ork nerfs seem like an elegant way to handle the problem, without points nerfs. We'll have to see if that's a enough.

The Buffs to Necrons is fantastic. Having Core on all of that opens up so many things!

Funny that they still won't give CSM their extra wound.

Voss wrote:
Core for Necrons makes me laugh. The reasons why they didn't have it were fluffy (insane things aren't a core part of the army), but it was just such a bad rules decision.

I kinda wish that the units with DESTROYER only gained CORE if one of the various Destroyer Lord options was taken.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s…..it’s almost as if the amount of time they can spend playtesting is insignificant compared to the number of games played in the first month of an Edition or Codex’s release?

But it can’t be that. Can it.

well, if it would just be possible to keep a game around longer than 3 years, maybe if you had more time, like 6 or 9 years, there could be more games played and rules and balance fine tuned

but I guess this is impossible and it is better to start from scratch every 3-4 years without enough time to test the new stuff before it is released

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
GW in full-blown panic mode these days.

"most play-tested edition ever"

Actively trying to balance the meta= full blown panic mode.

Alrighty then.

 xttz wrote:
I'm not seeing a ton of point changes for AdMech and DEldar

Marshal & manipulus +10pts, skitarii infantry +1ppm, sicarians +2ppm, ironstriders +10pts, flyers +20pts
Kastellans down 10ppm

Archon +10pts, Succubus +20pts, Wyches +2ppm, flyers up a bit

Archon: +5
Succubus: +20
Haemonculus: -10
Wyches: +2
Grotesques: -5
Incubi: +2
Ravager -10
Cronos +5
Talos -10
Raider +10, sneaky +15 because now the Disintegrator is +5 and Dark Lance is +10
so you have to choose either +5 or +10 to the point cost
Razorwing Jetfighter -10
and Voidraven -10
I think trueborn and bloodbrides +1? I'd have to check the book.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 xttz wrote:
I'm not seeing a ton of point changes for AdMech and DEldar

Marshal & manipulus +10pts, skitarii infantry +1ppm, sicarians +2ppm, ironstriders +10pts, flyers +20pts
Kastellans down 10ppm

Archon +10pts, Succubus +20pts, Wyches +2ppm, flyers up a bit

That's a good thing. No more nerfhammer, but some adjustments up in cost to see if that helps curb them without cratering them.

Russe going up a save is nice, but the long term fix for vehicle survivability is to bump vehicle toughness across the board.

Agreed. With so many 8E codexes still around, I wonder how much bearing that has on the win rates for the dominant factions. It would be a shame for them to be heavily nerfed right now, and end up overly handicapped in 6-12 months time once most 9E books are out.

I much prefer GW keeping a lighter touch while also throwing a bone to struggling factions like this.

 Sasori wrote:
Ork nerfs seem like an elegant way to handle the problem, without points nerfs. We'll have to see if that's a enough.

They... just completely killed off the winning list? I wouldn't call that "elegant", especially since it effectively prevents the use of kustom jobs, one of the most liked ork mechanic of 8th.

They could just have made buggy units 1 model only for the same effect and cause less collateral damage.

 Dysartes wrote:

Voss wrote:
Core for Necrons makes me laugh. The reasons why they didn't have it were fluffy (insane things aren't a core part of the army), but it was just such a bad rules decision.

I kinda wish that the units with DESTROYER only gained CORE if one of the various Destroyer Lord options was taken.

Nah, that would actually make sense, can't have that.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 xttz wrote:
I'm not seeing a ton of point changes for AdMech and DEldar

Marshal & manipulus +10pts, skitarii infantry +1ppm, sicarians +2ppm, ironstriders +10pts, flyers +20pts
Kastellans down 10ppm

Archon +10pts, Succubus +20pts, Wyches +2ppm, flyers up a bit

Archon: +5
Succubus: +20
Haemonculus: -10
Wyches: +2
Grotesques: -5
Incubi: +2
Ravager -10
Cronos +5
Talos -10
Raider +10, sneaky +15 because now the Disintegrator is +5 and Dark Lance is +10
so you have to choose either +5 or +10 to the point cost
Razorwing Jetfighter -10
and Voidraven -10
I think trueborn and bloodbrides +1? I'd have to check the book.

Trueborn and Bloodbrides +1 yea, but on top of the increase to wyches, you're now looking at 15ppm bloodbrides instead of 12!

Ork nerfs seem like an elegant way to handle the problem, without points nerfs. We'll have to see if that's a enough.

No! Cap! is the exact opposite of elegant to me. It may be a necessary stopgap, but honestly I'd rather a points adjustment than a voice on high simply screaming NO!

Its feels weird and sets a poor precedent. Consider what happens if Guard get slapped with a cap of 3 hellhounds, 3 Russes or 3 Basilisks. With maybe an out for 3 of the Russ variants and 3 Russ demolisher variants (if those are still a distinction the codex even makes anymore)

 Jidmah wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
Ork nerfs seem like an elegant way to handle the problem, without points nerfs. We'll have to see if that's a enough.

They... just completely killed off the winning list? I wouldn't call that "elegant", especially since it effectively prevents the use of kustom jobs, one of the most liked ork mechanic of 8th.

They could just have made buggy units 1 model only for the same effect and cause less collateral damage.

Did they?

I mean, 2 wazboms, 3 squigbuggies, 3 scrapjets, 2 dragstas and 2 KBBs where does that get you?

Also, we did get the new army of renown which make the buggies defensively basically the perfect machine.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s…..it’s almost as if the amount of time they can spend playtesting is insignificant compared to the number of games played in the first month of an Edition or Codex’s release?

But it can’t be that. Can it.

Funny how players spot issues in first reading. Gw can't take time to read book once?

Gw games aren't complicated. Broken list is found even before books gets releasea with just partial data. Gw makes sure its easy to see.