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Isn't there a Speed Freeks update in the new Warzone book or something? Hilarious if it allows the list that was removed today to be used again, for a fee.

I just dislike planes. They are extremely uninteractive and boring and all their rules come down to "this rule? flyers ignore it, yeah"

Titanic and superheavies aren't as stupid as flyers implementation in this game, so them being limited is good for me.

Now if only they could make them actually fun to use and play agaisnt...

 oni wrote:


OK, but there is a cost.

Lets put all of my suggestions together for the Orks.
- Flyers are removed from all other detachments and given a dedicated detachment that costs 4 CP and is 1 to 3 flyers. We can place a detachment restriction stating that your army can only have one Flyer Detachment. Keep in mind that Flyers are all already units of 1 and there's already a cap on detachment quantity based on game size.
- Buggies are changed to be units of one.

In my mind it works out to be a better solution and has a better overall effect.

The Ork player will have access to one additional Flyer for Incursion and Strike Force games, but has to pay Command Points for it and will have fewer Buggies overall due to unit size of one, datasheet caps and detachment quantity caps (which the detachment caps also play into the Flyer issue). When the two changes are together there's some costs and some trade offs that happens during army creation.

Having Flyers removed from all other detachments and given a dedicated detachment that costs 4 CP and is 1 to 3 flyers works across the whole game too.

Flip side - you just made me pay 4 CP for a Heldrake, which I would never do.

Have they buffed the GW editors yet? Or were they eaten by tyranids?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Isn't there a Speed Freeks update in the new Warzone book or something? Hilarious if it allows the list that was removed today to be used again, for a fee.

We already know the full contents of that book.

Essentially, this update kills the army of reknown before it has ever been played, as it will always result into the same nigh-identical army now with the only difference between them being how many warbikers you trade for extra buggies.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Flip side - you just made me pay 4 CP for a Heldrake, which I would never do.

You wouldn't do it right now, not with the current codex.

 Jidmah wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Isn't there a Speed Freeks update in the new Warzone book or something? Hilarious if it allows the list that was removed today to be used again, for a fee.

We already know the full contents of that book.

Essentially, this update kills the army of reknown before it has ever been played, as it will always result into the same nigh-identical army now with the only difference between them being how many warbikers you trade for extra buggies.

He is correct. The army of renown is so limited (moreso now) that the list is basically going to be a close carbon copy of this. Essentially all this update did was make ork lists more cumbersome to build and less choices in design but just as strong and overpowered as it was (but with less of the gakky aircraft charge blocking shenanigans)

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/801817.page#11250428

tneva82 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s…..it’s almost as if the amount of time they can spend playtesting is insignificant compared to the number of games played in the first month of an Edition or Codex’s release?

But it can’t be that. Can it.

Funny how players spot issues in first reading. Gw can't take time to read book once?

Gw games aren't complicated. Broken list is found even before books gets releasea with just partial data. Gw makes sure its easy to see.

Revisionist history GO!!!!

Just as many busted combos go completely unnoticed by the player base for weeks as get called out instantly. No one knew what to do with orkz for like a solid month after the whole book got spoiled and that's WITH 10000 armchair gamers taking every rule apart piece by piece.

ERJAK wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s…..it’s almost as if the amount of time they can spend playtesting is insignificant compared to the number of games played in the first month of an Edition or Codex’s release?

But it can’t be that. Can it.

Funny how players spot issues in first reading. Gw can't take time to read book once?

Gw games aren't complicated. Broken list is found even before books gets releasea with just partial data. Gw makes sure its easy to see.

Revisionist history GO!!!!

Just as many busted combos go completely unnoticed by the player base for weeks as get called out instantly. No one knew what to do with orkz for like a solid month after the whole book got spoiled and that's WITH 10000 armchair gamers taking every rule apart piece by piece.

I mean I can honestly say I never thought to abuse 4x flyers like the guy at socal did to place terrain and then completely wall off all assault with flyer bases… that was some abusive nonsense.

Wow Slaanesh chaos space marines are gonna tear it up in close combat. No second wound though...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh god I feel so bad for ork players that bought multiple models that got restricted...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joyboozer wrote:
Have they buffed the GW editors yet? Or were they eaten by tyranids?

Are you inferring that they were squatted and nobody told GW?

ERJAK wrote:
Revisionist history GO!!!!

Just as many busted combos go completely unnoticed by the player base for weeks as get called out instantly. No one knew what to do with orkz for like a solid month after the whole book got spoiled and that's WITH 10000 armchair gamers taking every rule apart piece by piece.

I don't think this is right. People identified Speedfreaks damage was going to be off the chain in the first week. They did similar calculations on DE and I feel with Ad Mech.

Where Armchair generals have issue is movement tactics. So Grey Knights are harder to weigh up than just "I take unit X, I slap on special rule Y, Stratagem Z etc, and viola, expected damage output of 70%+ versus a range of targets from shooting/charging".

You tend to get people who argue "that's a gimmick list it won't work for reasons" (see liquifier spam before its nerf) - but its hard to work out why, because you can always win 40k by just annihilating your opponent in 2 turns.

 oni wrote:
This is upsetting for me.

3. An extra attack for CSM. Not an additional wound. WTF? I'm sorry for all the CSM players. Normally I'm tone def to your incessant whining, but even I felt the slap to the face on this one.

I can whine some more if it would make you feel better about this. But yeah they keep dropping the ball on that second wound XD not in the codex reprint, faq and errata, or balance updates. I’m not even mad anymore this is comical at this point.

It's a pity knights are big multi-model bricks now. That makes them even less interesting to play. Also, Tyranids are completely absent, because they do not exist.

I find it odd that Kabalite Warriors are now cheaper than Skitarii. I thought for sure they’d both go up. I suppose the nerf to Raiders and HQs is supposed to cover that?

IMO there was almost nothing in the drukhari army that was OVERpriced—just some units that were overshadowed by other units’ extreme efficiency. Yet, it looks like some things did get points decreases. We shall see, I suppose.

 oni wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Flip side - you just made me pay 4 CP for a Heldrake, which I would never do.

You wouldn't do it right now, not with the current codex.

Fast mover than can put a tough profile onto an objective and force my opponent to deal with it and if they don't kill it I can fly it off the table to bring it back around later with an auto-hit weapon? Heck yea I would. Just not likely ever more than one.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Isn't there a Speed Freeks update in the new Warzone book or something? Hilarious if it allows the list that was removed today to be used again, for a fee.

It doesn't.

But it would have (arguably) heavily buffed the powerful meta list, with the exception of having to give up kustom mega kannons in favor of more 5++sv buggies.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Isn't there a Speed Freeks update in the new Warzone book or something? Hilarious if it allows the list that was removed today to be used again, for a fee.

It doesn't.

But it would have (arguably) heavily buffed the powerful meta list, with the exception of having to give up kustom mega kannons in favor of more 5++sv buggies.

Also no Freebootaz accuracy buff, since it requires Speed Freekz and/or changes out your kultur.

Quasistellar wrote:
I find it odd that Kabalite Warriors are now cheaper than Skitarii. I thought for sure they’d both go up. I suppose the nerf to Raiders and HQs is supposed to cover that?

IMO there was almost nothing in the drukhari army that was OVERpriced—just some units that were overshadowed by other units’ extreme efficiency. Yet, it looks like some things did get points decreases. We shall see, I suppose.

I definitely disagree with you. Kabalite warriors should be cheaper than skitarii...because theyre not as good. The only edge kabalites have over skitarii is a better transport. So you nerf the transports instead of nerfing them, just makes sense.

in comparison between skitarii and kabalites, skitarii have:

-3 shots assault 18" S3 autowounds on a 6 to hit or 2 shots 30" S4 AP-1 instead of poison 4+ RF 1 24" range
-doctrina imperatives (kabalites get PFP but only really benefit from the 6++...which skitarii also get by default)
-pregame move on rangers and -1S -1T in engagement range on vanguard
-better, and more, special weapons
-better, and cheaper, or just way way way better in the case of the Manipulus, supporting HQs
-a stratagem for each unit that's still borderline OP even post-nerf

and in exchange, kabalites get..a melee attack and a point of WS. Cool, this light shooting infantry unit with strength 3 Ap- gets 1 extra attack and WS3+...plus rerolling charges.

Skitarii are an amazing, possibly the ONLY functional light infantry unit in the game that can deploy on foot and actually try to compete in combat against elite infantry. Kabs you'd never take outside a transport, and their transport just got a 20% nerf.

I know the Tau codex is supposed to be out in January, but you couldn't throw them a bone to get through the next two months GW? Really?

Yeah there was no problem with basic Kabalites. They're fine.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Isn't there a Speed Freeks update in the new Warzone book or something? Hilarious if it allows the list that was removed today to be used again, for a fee.

It doesn't.

But it would have (arguably) heavily buffed the powerful meta list, with the exception of having to give up kustom mega kannons in favor of more 5++sv buggies.

Also no Freebootaz accuracy buff, since it requires Speed Freekz and/or changes out your kultur.

it requires speed freeks, aircraft or wagons. Those last two can still be freebootas, and the speed freeks can trigger their freeboota buff. Plus, one of the most important weapons in the buggy list, the heavy squig launcha, is already at +1 to hit so doesnt actually benefit from freebootas...but definitely definitely would benefit from getting to advance every turn and from a 5++.

So in a world where planes and buggies aren't nerfed, all those planes would stay exactly the same, and the parts of the list you actually try to fight to gain board control (the buggies and bikers) would be getting a massive durability and mobility boost and a slight offensive boost as well, optionally, while the firepower coming out of your planes and your squigbuggies would be almost the same.

Realistically the skrapjets would be the only parts of the list you'd lose significant firepower from not having freebootas. The loss of firepower from bikers would be partially made up by the bonus melee attack at WS3+ (you drop from about 8 hits to about 7 hits on bikers. Not nothing, but you do get a 5++ out of it and you actually get to get your bikers into dakka range turn 1 reliably)

I think you had to do something to tap it pre-emptively. This is a bit sloppy and weird, you could have just point nerfed buggies and planes, but tbh they werent actually that problematic in non-freeboota buggy spam shooting list contexts.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Isn't there a Speed Freeks update in the new Warzone book or something? Hilarious if it allows the list that was removed today to be used again, for a fee.

It doesn't.

But it would have (arguably) heavily buffed the powerful meta list, with the exception of having to give up kustom mega kannons in favor of more 5++sv buggies.

Also no Freebootaz accuracy buff, since it requires Speed Freekz and/or changes out your kultur.

This is not true… dakkajets are not speedfreaks and allowed in the speedmob
Speedmob is still klan freebooter but don’t benefit from the kultur
However freebooter only requires a klan unit to trigger the buff (like mek guns people used)
So the army of renown can trigger the ability and give 2 aircraft in an outrider detachment +1 to hit.
Look at this list for guidance.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/801817.page#11250428

Again all this buggy nerf did was make kustom jobs useless and make mannys 18x buggy spam list unplayable which the meta already moved away from.
The aircraft nerf did nerf the recent socal 4 aircraft list (and this entire emergency update was a knee jerk to that tournament) but again that was a specific outlier on a tournament that allowed the player to funnel terrain placement like he did. (Again knee jerk reaction update with poor thought out non-fixes to buggies)

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Voss wrote:
This is another classic GW 'we didn't think people would actually do that with the rules we wrote.'

There isn't a simple solution to flyer bases. Putting models on top of them creates a problem when the flyer has to move. They could probably eliminate the 1" buffer for flyers though, but that could get confusing if say some assault marines were next to a flyer, but not actually in combat with it.

It's not that complex an issue though.

Measure range to the target thats blocked behind the flier.

Lets say it's a true 7" charge to a unit that is hiding behind a flier base.

So you need a 7" roll on the die to make engagement with that unit, however you move it as close as possible up until it contacts the flier base, then you fight over the flier base as if it's actually the target units base.

Basically treat flier bases as if they are a friendly model in the units involved in the melee.

After the flier moves on you pile in the units starting with the unit that charged.

Not perfect, but better then stacking bases or the odd abstraction we have now where the fliers are blocking ground movement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quasistellar wrote:
I find it odd that Kabalite Warriors are now cheaper than Skitarii. I thought for sure they’d both go up. I suppose the nerf to Raiders and HQs is supposed to cover that?

IMO there was almost nothing in the drukhari army that was OVERpriced—just some units that were overshadowed by other units’ extreme efficiency. Yet, it looks like some things did get points decreases. We shall see, I suppose.

Kabalites can't hold a candle to admech infantry lol. It's night and day.

There are some head scratchers though. Like incubi going to 18 ppm while hellions are 17...

Glad Grots went back down, 40 was a bit steep compared to things like termies and blade guard vets.

Planes should just have to start the game in strategic reserve so they can't alpha strike. They should also not zone out reinforcements nor should they force enemies to stay outside of engagement range when moving.

Hopefully 9e CSM drops early 2022 rather than later, because the wait for 2W is borderline farcical at this point.

 Dendarien wrote:
Planes should just have to start the game in strategic reserve so they can't alpha strike. They should also not zone out reinforcements nor should they force enemies to stay outside of engagement range when moving.

This essentially gives aircraft the better tactical advantage by forcing the opponent to move before it comes in and also keeping it safe without having to spend CP - a more tantalizing prospect the bigger the flyer gets. Removing engagement ranges also makes it somewhat easier for them to slide in and snipe characters. If you restrict its first move to be like other reserves it will have less to game in regards to sniping, but not targeting.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Dendarien wrote:
Planes should just have to start the game in strategic reserve so they can't alpha strike. They should also not zone out reinforcements nor should they force enemies to stay outside of engagement range when moving.

This essentially gives aircraft the better tactical advantage by forcing the opponent to move before it comes in and also keeping it safe without having to spend CP - a more tantalizing prospect the bigger the flyer gets. Removing engagement ranges also makes it somewhat easier for them to slide in and snipe characters. If you restrict its first move to be like other reserves it will have less to game in regards to sniping, but not targeting.

The number 1 problem with aircraft has been alpha strike. Forcing them to start off the board at least ameliorates that. I don't like the approach to fixing planes to be just pricing them to absurdity. I mean a wazbom is already 190 points, how high can you push it?

With regards to taking up space just make aircraft have to respect opponent's models then. It's stupid that you can drive a flyer 50+ inches turn 1 and park right outside your opponent and say sorry you can't move because my aircraft thousands of feet up in the air is blocking you.

 Dendarien wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Dendarien wrote:
Planes should just have to start the game in strategic reserve so they can't alpha strike. They should also not zone out reinforcements nor should they force enemies to stay outside of engagement range when moving.

This essentially gives aircraft the better tactical advantage by forcing the opponent to move before it comes in and also keeping it safe without having to spend CP - a more tantalizing prospect the bigger the flyer gets. Removing engagement ranges also makes it somewhat easier for them to slide in and snipe characters. If you restrict its first move to be like other reserves it will have less to game in regards to sniping, but not targeting.

The number 1 problem with aircraft has been alpha strike. Forcing them to start off the board at least ameliorates that. I don't like the approach to fixing planes to be just pricing them to absurdity. I mean a wazbom is already 190 points, how high can you push it?

With regards to taking up space just make aircraft have to respect opponent's models then. It's stupid that you can drive a flyer 50+ inches turn 1 and park right outside your opponent and say sorry you can't move because my aircraft thousands of feet up in the air is blocking you.

Ultimately I agree. I'm just wary of unintended consequences.

The Newman wrote:
I know the Tau codex is supposed to be out in January, but you couldn't throw them a bone to get through the next two months GW? Really?

That one actually makes some sense to me. This update would have happened in parallel or overlapping with the planned release of the Tau codex. It'd be pointless to have done a stopgap at the same time (especially not having the foggiest notion of what a Tau stopgap would be).
And it wouldn't have been of any quality, and there's enough non-quality updates here.

2nd wound CSM?