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Spoletta wrote:
People are finally bringing moderate amounts of AT and vehicles instead of either avoiding/spamming and we complain? If lists have 1-3 vehicles and 1-3 AT dedicated units, then it is ideal.

In fairness, that isn't how Ork armies have traditionally worked. We are the official skew/overload faction. Depending on edition/rules: 1 Blob of 30 boyz is good, 6 of them is great. (green tide list). A speedy Warbike unit is good, 3 of them backed up by fast trukkz is great (Speed freak/trukk boyz) 1 Battlewagon is durable, 3-6 of them is great! (Wagon rush) 1 unit of Meganobz is good, 3 blobs of them are great! (Bullyboys) That is literally how everyone competitive ork list has been built for as long as I can remember.

At the moment my competitive list which is undefeated so far this edition is spamming T5 models that can get into CC turn 1. Alphork strike would not work if I mixed in a bunch of units that didn't synergize with that mindset. Same is true with statlines and types. A Green tide list doesn't work if you have 60 boyz and a bunch of vehicles. The Current Freeboota list that scared everyone to hell and back was just spamming the same vehicle profile over and over again, with different weapon loadouts.

Just to throw more fuel on SemperMortis's excellent list, there was also Nob Bikerz in 5th, who were pretty good as one unit but absolutely oppressive as several. (Well, 2 maximum sized ones but it was spending as many points on them as could be spent)

 the_scotsman wrote:
Unfortunately, the trend of "Warlords+Relics amp up the power level of character by 2x-3x" is something thats actually ramping up instead of ramping down, too, unlike the power conveyed by Stratagems vs base unit stats.

lets take Sicarian Ruststalkers for an example:

19pts per model for 4 pretty high-AP attacks that can also cause mortal wounds. Pretty scary! but only T3 4+ meaning their drawback is obviously their defenses, as they can be cut down by low strength low AP weapons like lasguns quite easily.

Out of the box tho, thy have Wasteland Stalkers, which allows them to have a 2+ instead of a 3+ in cover, so the picture of how were supposed to use these guys becomes clear: Theyre a glass cannon, and they should lurk in cover until its time to jump out and attack something, but you also have to be wary about interrupts less they be cut down by an opponent's melee dangerous unit.

That all works, that all makes sense, that all seems fair.

Oh, but wait...now you can give them Warlord traits and Relics via a stratagem on their Alpha!

And oh look! A relic that grants them a fight-last effect! And a warlord trait that makes them ALWAYS COUNT IN COVER.

THAT changes the ball game on this unit, doesn't it? Suddenly all those drawbacks...poof! Theyre gone!

Wait, you can give alphas warlord traits and relics in the new codex???? holy gak this is dumb lmao.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I genuinely want someone to show me a game that was perfectly balanced from the start. Because I want to see this unicorn.

What is your criteria for the games (wholly original, should they be miniatures based, etc.), what counts as the start (commercial release?) and what do you consider perfectly balanced (so for example if the two sides have different chances of success but you play twice, once each side and the result is cumulative, does that count as balanced?).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Salted Diamond wrote:

Same here, I have a small scion army that is basically 3 scion squads all in Valkyries and a Vulture for support, super fun and fluffy, and in no way OP. Illegal now.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

I have an Inquisitorial Storm Trooper Air Cav army - 60-odd Kasrkin and 6 Valks. They love these rules.

My somewhat more conservative 1 squadron of 3 valks with 1 vulture in support are also nixed, and it wasn't like they were particularly powerful!

They could (and I hope *will*) fix this by shunting the transports into the Dedicated Transport slot and leave the Flyer slot for actual gunships and the like. I'm all for letting an opponent do that anyway, the, since as noted, guard air cav is a rad as feth concept that deserves, er, wings.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
Unfortunately, the trend of "Warlords+Relics amp up the power level of character by 2x-3x" is something thats actually ramping up instead of ramping down, too, unlike the power conveyed by Stratagems vs base unit stats.

lets take Sicarian Ruststalkers for an example:

19pts per model for 4 pretty high-AP attacks that can also cause mortal wounds. Pretty scary! but only T3 4+ meaning their drawback is obviously their defenses, as they can be cut down by low strength low AP weapons like lasguns quite easily.

Out of the box tho, thy have Wasteland Stalkers, which allows them to have a 2+ instead of a 3+ in cover, so the picture of how were supposed to use these guys becomes clear: Theyre a glass cannon, and they should lurk in cover until its time to jump out and attack something, but you also have to be wary about interrupts less they be cut down by an opponent's melee dangerous unit.

That all works, that all makes sense, that all seems fair.

Oh, but wait...now you can give them Warlord traits and Relics via a stratagem on their Alpha!

And oh look! A relic that grants them a fight-last effect! And a warlord trait that makes them ALWAYS COUNT IN COVER.

THAT changes the ball game on this unit, doesn't it? Suddenly all those drawbacks...poof! Theyre gone!

Wait, you can give alphas warlord traits and relics in the new codex???? holy gak this is dumb lmao.

Not really something new.
SM 2.0 dex in 8th already allowed that.
All of the 9th edition dexes can too.

At least the relic.
Admech could be the only ones that can do that with traits though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_scotsman wrote:
Unfortunately, the trend of "Warlords+Relics amp up the power level of character by 2x-3x" is something thats actually ramping up instead of ramping down, too, unlike the power conveyed by Stratagems vs base unit stats.

lets take Sicarian Ruststalkers for an example:

19pts per model for 4 pretty high-AP attacks that can also cause mortal wounds. Pretty scary! but only T3 4+ meaning their drawback is obviously their defenses, as they can be cut down by low strength low AP weapons like lasguns quite easily.

Out of the box tho, thy have Wasteland Stalkers, which allows them to have a 2+ instead of a 3+ in cover, so the picture of how were supposed to use these guys becomes clear: Theyre a glass cannon, and they should lurk in cover until its time to jump out and attack something, but you also have to be wary about interrupts less they be cut down by an opponent's melee dangerous unit.

That all works, that all makes sense, that all seems fair.

Oh, but wait...now you can give them Warlord traits and Relics via a stratagem on their Alpha!

And oh look! A relic that grants them a fight-last effect! And a warlord trait that makes them ALWAYS COUNT IN COVER.

THAT changes the ball game on this unit, doesn't it? Suddenly all those drawbacks...poof! Theyre gone!

This is true, but it doesn't exactly come free.

You are spending 2 CP for that.
Now, it is always hard to assign a point value to a CP, but we can for sure assume that a CP is worth at least 25 points.
This is making those 19 ppm models into either 24 or even 29 ppm models, depending on the size of the squad.

Kind of mixed because I like the idea that characters should be tooled up with warlord traits and relics - but I think you need a system that just recognises that (it could just be wargear with a 0-1 option), and the current one doesn't really. I'm not sure you can say CP are "worth 25 points" - its a much more marginal, interesting situation than that because of the way you spend and regenerate them.

I think it might send the playerbase running for the hills - but I really thing there's an argument GW should bring in variable point pricing (not that I'd trust them to do it - but still).

I.E. rather than having say "thy shalt take 2 flyers and that is it the end" - you'd have the first Dakkajet cost 120 points, and the next one cost 150 points, and the one after that 180. So you can take 3 if you want - but there's a downside to doing so. Arguably this just changes the list-building side of the game and people would still find solutions - but it potentially allows for units to feel powerful in themselves - but not just lead to "okay this is the best, I should take 3 until they get nerfed or something else gets buffed".

Catulle wrote:
They could (and I hope *will*) fix this by shunting the transports into the Dedicated Transport slot and leave the Flyer slot for actual gunships and the like. I'm all for letting an opponent do that anyway, the, since as noted, guard air cav is a rad as feth concept that deserves, er, wings.

Unless they remove the AIRCRAFT keyword from the Valkyries, this doesn't change anything (and doing so creates more rules problems, I imagine) - the restriction isn't on the use of Flyer slots, it is on AIRCRAFT models...

 vipoid wrote:
Maybe it's not so bad for some armies (Necrons certainly comes to mind). However, the difference between an Archon with...

A reminder that an Overlord with a S+2 AP-4 D2 costs the same as one with a S+1 AP-3 D1 weapon. There are absolutely traps when building a Necrons HQ.

If each army has 1 relic and WL trait then balance there isn't that important compared to so many other places and I think finding combos can be a fun thing to do, as long as every relic fulfills its promise then it's okay if it is never seen in competitive lists, as long as you can feel good about using your pistol lady. Both pistols and melee weapons for Company Commander level characters can be balanced by having auxiliary effects unrelated to the damage caused by the weapon, the sword of a hero might be inspiring, a pistol might come with special ammo for nearby friendly units once per game. A relic chainsword needs to be almost as good as a relic power sword, the point difference is probably only around 5 pts, but there is the base cost of the character to consider in addition to the relic slot. Most of these probably aren't tested and the designers probably don't want to copy themselves too much (that'd be admitting that multiple factions might be able to share WL traits for example). I think points costs for relics makes them too ordinary and supports the creation of cheap do-nothing relics.

Tyel wrote:
I think it might send the playerbase running for the hills - but I really thing there's an argument GW should bring in variable point pricing (not that I'd trust them to do it - but still).

9th Age (fanmade spiritual successor of WHFB) did it. If you have something like Battlescribe to handle the back-end then it doesn't have to be a headache. If the points are right then you don't have to worry about whether you should take a bad combo because it's undercosted versus avoiding a strong combo because it is overcosted, you can just take whichever one fits your playstyle, but it is pretty Utopian.

 vict0988 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Maybe it's not so bad for some armies (Necrons certainly comes to mind). However, the difference between an Archon with...

A reminder that an Overlord with a S+2 AP-4 D2 costs the same as one with a S+1 AP-3 D1 weapon. There are absolutely traps when building a Necrons HQ..

I didn't say that there weren't traps. What I said is that there didn't seem to be the same disconnect in terms of builds with and without artefacts.

The fact that Warscythe Overlords pay barely any extra over Voidblade Overlords is certainly silly, but it's something GW could fix - as both of those items cost points. Meanwhile, differences in artefact or warlord trait power can't be fixed because they all cost 1 CP.

Dysartes wrote:

Catulle wrote:
They could (and I hope *will*) fix this by shunting the transports into the Dedicated Transport slot and leave the Flyer slot for actual gunships and the like. I'm all for letting an opponent do that anyway, the, since as noted, guard air cav is a rad as feth concept that deserves, er, wings.

Unless they remove the AIRCRAFT keyword from the Valkyries, this doesn't change anything (and doing so creates more rules problems, I imagine) - the restriction isn't on the use of Flyer slots, it is on AIRCRAFT models...

That is a very valid distinction, maybe they should change up what is considered aircraft vs just fly?

 vipoid wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Maybe it's not so bad for some armies (Necrons certainly comes to mind). However, the difference between an Archon with...

A reminder that an Overlord with a S+2 AP-4 D2 costs the same as one with a S+1 AP-3 D1 weapon. There are absolutely traps when building a Necrons HQ..

I didn't say that there weren't traps. What I said is that there didn't seem to be the same disconnect in terms of builds with and without artefacts.

The fact that Warscythe Overlords pay barely any extra over Voidblade Overlords is certainly silly, but it's something GW could fix - as both of those items cost points. Meanwhile, differences in artefact or warlord trait power can't be fixed because they all cost 1 CP.

Just to correct the record, warscythes do cost more, it's staves of light that are much more cost efficient than voidblades/hyperphase swords, it's not as easy a comparison as I made it out to be though. GW fixed one of the Drukhari WL traits. If they tested all the WL traits prior to release and mathed out the effects and compared them they'd be able to release reasonably balanced relics and WL traits.

Personally I still think WLT's and Relics should cost points.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Just to throw more fuel on SemperMortis's excellent list, there was also Nob Bikerz in 5th, who were pretty good as one unit but absolutely oppressive as several. (Well, 2 maximum sized ones but it was spending as many points on them as could be spent)

Not really the same. Biker nobz worked in conjunction with any possible archetype. Not just biker based lists.

In SemperMortis's list all those units were at best ok outside spamming them, and only in casual games. I don't think spamming multiple units of biker nobz has ever been a competitive build actually, I don't remember people bringing more than one 5-6 man squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:
The Current Freeboota list that scared everyone to hell and back was just spamming the same vehicle profile over and over again, with different weapon loadouts.

Exactly. Freebooterz Speedwaaagh lists from average/common but pretty complete collections of models don't scare anyone, they can be good and optimized TAC lists but far from being OP. Not everyone owns 4+ planes and 9+ buggies. Just getting one of each option from the ork catalogue means a 7-8k points collection.

And Freebooterz trait is probably the worst one in the entire codex when playing smaller games, or multi-klan armies, since it's hard to trigger and the majority of the army could not have a klan bonus at all.

 Blackie wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Just to throw more fuel on SemperMortis's excellent list, there was also Nob Bikerz in 5th, who were pretty good as one unit but absolutely oppressive as several. (Well, 2 maximum sized ones but it was spending as many points on them as could be spent)

Not really the same. Biker nobz worked in conjunction with any possible archetype. Not just biker based lists.

In SemperMortis's list all those units were at best ok outside spamming them, and only in casual games. I don't think spamming multiple units of biker nobz has ever been a competitive build actually, I don't remember people bringing more than one 5-6 man squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:
The Current Freeboota list that scared everyone to hell and back was just spamming the same vehicle profile over and over again, with different weapon loadouts.

Exactly. Freebooterz Speedwaaagh lists from average/common but pretty complete collections of models don't scare anyone, they can be good and optimized TAC lists but far from being OP. Not everyone owns 4+ planes and 9+ buggies. Just getting one of each option from the ork catalogue means a 7-8k points collection.

And Freebooterz trait is probably the worst one in the entire codex when playing smaller games, or multi-klan armies, since it's hard to trigger and the majority of the army could not have a klan bonus at all.

Two max size mobs of nob bikers with cybork bodies, a painboy and different equipment on each model to abuse wound allocation was THE list for orks for a while in 5e.

Yeah spending as many points as possible on Nob Bikerz and leaving everything else at home was a major factor in 5th edition.

As mentioned, it abused wound allocation, but it also had big cover saves and invlns sometimes thanks to Turbo-Boost, and T5 meant the bikes were rather hard to instant death (strength 10 guns were rare).

I'm well aware of their benefits, I played biker nobz everytime! But just a single 5 man squad on a 1500 points list (we all played that format back then), which was exactly 350 points. Already a massive points sink, while two larger squads would have cost 1000 points.

Which I don't think was something optimized to field as a few bad rolls and too many enemy bodies to deal with could cause hard times for the ork list. Biker nobz were a staple in my area during 5th, I just don't remember lists that brought multiple squads. 1000 points of nob bikers in a 2000 points lists could have been much more optimized as a choice though.

Nob bikers suffered from instant death at S8, because their toughness was 4(5).



Which was precisely the reason why 2x 10 nob bikers in 5th was a noob stomper army but imploded against any serious opponent - especially IG with their manticores, battle cannons, melta vets, vendettas and battle cannons, space wolves with their long fangs spam, and later GK with their psyfleman dreads could easily wipe them out. But also eldar had no issues tearing them apart with lances and various fusion weapons and all flavors of marines had suicide melta.

There was a consensus that bringing one unit of 5-9 nob bikers was the way to go, usually as part of the battlewagon bash list. This had both the advantage of providing them with a KFF, but also allowing them to hide from sight behind the wagons.

 Bosskelot wrote:
Personally I still think WLT's and Relics should cost points.

They should. Warlord traits should go away and we should go back to having a pre-8th style big list of relics you can mix and match from.

I don't think that making WLT or Relics cost points will really do anything worthwhile. A lot of relics also replace things that you are paying paying points for, so...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't think that making WLT or Relics cost points will really do anything worthwhile. A lot of relics also replace things that you are paying paying points for, so...

Its needed for balance, there are relics that no one takes even if they are free and you are allowed to take a 3rd, or 4th relic for free bc they are that bad, but then you have others are 4x a characters damage.