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@brainpsyk, go back to the beginning where I first responded. (do you even read bro?)

brainpsyk wrote:
. . . bubble wrap an objective with a TON of ObSec bodies that's really hard to shift.

I provided a basic Marine unit that took the objective back without any buffs. 10 Assault Intercessors clear enough Gants to hold the objective without any buffs, CP, doctrines, etc. Just shoot and charge.

As for 150 points of Marines vs. 150 points of Fleshborer Gants, you have the Gants spending 3 CP and knocking the Intercessors down to 1 model. Okay. . .

The 7 Assault Intercessors throw one Frag Grenade, shoot with 6 pistols, charge, then spend 2 CP to fight again and wipe out the Gants. Win - Intercessors, and there are more buffs yet to give from Doctrines or Auras if required.

7 Intercessors with Assault Bolters Firing twice and charging does 23.5 kills , although that's pre-doctrine so lets say 26.7. In fact I'll put another Strat (to match your 3CP) for Scions of Guilliman, and that clears the squad at 29.8 kills.


. . .

brainpsyk wrote:
So let's start over @140 points - that's 20 gaunts with Devourers & 7 Intercessors. 20 gaunts kill 3 marines in shooting and hth, for about 50 points of damage. The intercessors do 10.7 wounds to the gaunts, for about 75 points,

Intercessors with Assault Bolters kill 15.8 after shooting and charging. With doctrine it's 17.4. Bolt rifle Intercessors do 14.3.

Assault Intercessors do 16.9, shooting and charging.

The Gants don't even do half damage to the Intercessors, while the Intercessors knock the Termagants to down to 15-25% depending on loadout.


. . .

brainpsyk wrote:

And I said Sternguard COMPARATIVELY suck (do you even read bro?) Sternguard take an elite slot, which is better served with Aggressors, Bladeguard, a Judiciar, Dreadnoughts and Vanguard Vets.

I'll bring the units I want to bring. Sternguard cost the same an Intercessors, have the same stats, start with a better gun and have more squad and transport options.

I love how the dice rolls always work out correctly in these hypothetical games.

Spamming elite units, in an army of fairly expensive models, really isn't a problem when the Battallion alone provides 6 slots.

@ OP:

2W marines are a bonehead move by GW. Nothing else was to be expected from the sales team. So no big surprise.

Better solution:
Print universal perks attributed to power armour and terminator armour in the next rulebook. This would mean everybody wearing such an armour or an equivalent (e.g: aspect warriors, meganobs, etc.) would gain the advantage.

Just giving SM 2W leaves a bad taste in the mouth but poster boys apparently need every imaginable boost or else Little Timmy won´t buy any UM anymore and GeeDubbs goes banktrupt as a result of that.

ccs wrote:
I love how the dice rolls always work out correctly in these hypothetical games.

The average is used. Sure, you can roll cold, but you can also roll hot.

One can also check the odds of killing at least X models, but that tends to be more complicated, and generally the average is good enough.

 Strg Alt wrote:
@ OP:

2W marines are a bonehead move by GW. Nothing else was to be expected from the sales team. So no big surprise.

Better solution:
Print universal perks attributed to power armour and terminator armour in the next rulebook. This would mean everybody wearing such an armour or an equivalent (e.g: aspect warriors, meganobs, etc.) would gain the advantage.

Just giving SM 2W leaves a bad taste in the mouth but poster boys apparently need every imaginable boost or else Little Timmy won´t buy any UM anymore and GeeDubbs goes banktrupt as a result of that.

Battle sisters gaining their 2nd wound just because they wear a power armour would feel way more wrong than 2W marines. Heavy armour equivalents already provide +1W, pretty much for everyone, including meganobz.

2W is an not an imaginable boost, SM are not dominating because of that. It reminds me of orks getting +1T, which can be considered a massive armywide buff, while in practise most of the top ork lists bring very little T5 bodies, some even none at all.

 Insectum7 wrote:

7 Intercessors with Assault Bolters Firing twice and charging does 23.5 kills , although that's pre-doctrine so lets say 26.7. In fact I'll put another Strat (to match your 3CP) for Scions of Guilliman, and that clears the squad at 29.8 kills.

Oh look, they're still about even! Sounds like Marines still need a buff since Bugs are an S-tier faction and Marines a C-Tier faction, and a C-Tier faction does not need not a drop in durability, especially since one of the weakest units in that S-Tier faction keeps up with a main-line faction in a C-Tier codex.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'll bring the units I want to bring. Sternguard cost the same an Intercessors, have the same stats, start with a better gun and have more squad and transport options.

Yep, players should bring the units they want to bring. They just need to stop complaining about the units they choose to bring, and especially stop complaining about how a unit doesn't perform in a role it's not designed to do!


moving on...

 Blackie wrote:

2W is an not an imaginable boost, SM are not dominating because of that. It reminds me of orks getting +1T, which can be considered a massive armywide buff, while in practise most of the top ork lists bring very little T5 bodies, some even none at all.

Totally agree here. One of the biggest things (IMHO) holding back prior editions was that everything had 1W, so durability had to be ridiculous to have any effect at all. IIRC back in 3rd edition, a 1W marine was barely better than a regular guardsman, despite being 50% higher cost. I think going to 2W marines is the start, as it opens the door to 3W terminators, but also (in 10th and beyond), 3W marines, T5 2W Orks and leaving the weakest units, like Conscripts, at 1W, but also allows 1W T4 gaunts, T3 2W Incubi, etc. It literally opens up a whole new design space to take the game. GW tends to dip their toe in an idea, and if it works then go all-in with the next edition.

The funny thing is, as GW plays with varied T and W, lethality of the game will get toned down, and there will be greater difference between units.

brainpsyk wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

7 Intercessors with Assault Bolters Firing twice and charging does 23.5 kills , although that's pre-doctrine so lets say 26.7. In fact I'll put another Strat (to match your 3CP) for Scions of Guilliman, and that clears the squad at 29.8 kills.

Oh look, they're still about even! Sounds like Marines still need a buff since Bugs are an S-tier faction and Marines a C-Tier faction, and a C-Tier faction does not need not a drop in durability, especially since one of the weakest units in that S-Tier faction keeps up with a main-line faction in a C-Tier codex.

I don't know what this "C-tier" blabber is all about, but it sounds like gobledygook.

Unbuffed, no strats, 150 points of Fleshborer gants kills 2 Marines for a 40 point return. Shoot and Assault.

Unbuffed, Assault Intercessors manage 17 kills for an 85 point return. Against other Intercessors, they manage 7.5 wounds for a 75 point return. In Assault Doctrine it's 9.5 for a 95 point return.

If you're trying to make an argument that marines should be further buffed you're deranged.

brainpsyk wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'll bring the units I want to bring. Sternguard cost the same an Intercessors, have the same stats, start with a better gun and have more squad and transport options.

Yep, players should bring the units they want to bring. They just need to stop complaining about the units they choose to bring, and especially stop complaining about how a unit doesn't perform in a role it's not designed to do!

I do believe you're missing a vital component.

Actual point-for-point balance doesn't illustrate the issue. My problem is that on an individual level, numerous models have dropped in value in comparison to Marines, continuously. In prior editions it would only take x number of models to kill a marine, and now it's quite a bit more. Many non-marine units have instead undergone a degradation. See Hormagaunts (up the thread) for a very clear example. It once took 3 Hormagaunts to kill a Marine. Now its about 18.

Rolling back would be a nice move.
On the one hand, GW gave us smaller board size for speeding up the game.
On the other hand, the game is protracted by Marines with 2W.

Why would a Marine have the same Wounds as a Guardsman? Its fine they are 2 wounds. I mean ffs they have multiple extra organs lol. Yes let them have 2w.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Why would a Marine have the same Wounds as a Guardsman? Its fine they are 2 wounds. I mean ffs they have multiple extra organs lol. Yes let them have 2w.

T3 with 2 wounds? They are just humans with extra organs after all.

I reckon if they're going to go for a paradigm of using wounds to differentiate between different units, they'd be well served reducing the game size down to a couple of squads, a couple of heroes and a vehicle or two. The sort of size Warmachine used to be played at during Mk2. That was a game that used damage well, but it got unwieldy at bigger game sizes tracking all the damage on your units and so on.

Warhammer has taken a lot of stuff from Warmachine over the past while, having a similar game size would make sense. It would also help with the shrunken battlefields.

As for "marines have extra organs", I dunno I just don't find that a compelling argument. There are lots of things in the setting you could start making that argument for. It's interesting to follow this thread and see how the perspective has shifted though. It's pretty clear that most people currently playing the game prefer the 2W paradigm and so it definitely shouldn't be shifted back in my view. Like if they shifted that change it wouldn't draw in that many older players who've drifted away, because it seems to me most of them have bigger problems with the whole strategem paradigm and so on.

Tygre wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Why would a Marine have the same Wounds as a Guardsman? Its fine they are 2 wounds. I mean ffs they have multiple extra organs lol. Yes let them have 2w.

T3 with 2 wounds? They are just humans with extra organs after all.

They are no longer "just humans" they are much bigger and tougher all around than a normal human. They even have a special exosuit under the armor.

So you are telling me the local guy name Joe that is 5'10" weighs 165lbs is going to be as tough as a 6'10' 360lb jacked up man with super exosuit that is basically their skin? yeah ok lol.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Why would a Marine have the same Wounds as a Guardsman? Its fine they are 2 wounds. I mean ffs they have multiple extra organs lol. Yes let them have 2w.

Using fluff as a tool to measure out how tough a unit should be is....useless. In fluff an ork can survive having its head cut off and sewn back on. Does that mean orkz need 3 wounds each? In fluff orkz put out more dakka then any other faction in the game, does that mean our basic shoota should have 6 shots? (Honestly it could and shoota boyz still wouldn't be good )

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Tygre wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Why would a Marine have the same Wounds as a Guardsman? Its fine they are 2 wounds. I mean ffs they have multiple extra organs lol. Yes let them have 2w.

T3 with 2 wounds? They are just humans with extra organs after all.

They are no longer "just humans" they are much bigger and tougher all around than a normal human. They even have a special exosuit under the armor.

So you are telling me the local guy name Joe that is 5'10" weighs 165lbs is going to be as tough as a 6'10' 360lb jacked up man with super exosuit that is basically their skin? yeah ok lol.

A 5' Guardsmen with 100 lbs of skin and bones is T3 W1. So is a 6'10" Guardsmen with 300 lbs of pure muscle.

Also, as mentioned above, Orks can survive way more than Marines can. Marines don't survive with their heads gone. Orks do, if they get a Dok in the hour or so.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Tygre wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Why would a Marine have the same Wounds as a Guardsman? Its fine they are 2 wounds. I mean ffs they have multiple extra organs lol. Yes let them have 2w.

T3 with 2 wounds? They are just humans with extra organs after all.

They are no longer "just humans" they are much bigger and tougher all around than a normal human. They even have a special exosuit under the armor.

So you are telling me the local guy name Joe that is 5'10" weighs 165lbs is going to be as tough as a 6'10' 360lb jacked up man with super exosuit that is basically their skin? yeah ok lol.

A 5' Guardsmen with 100 lbs of skin and bones is T3 W1. So is a 6'10" Guardsmen with 300 lbs of pure muscle.

Also, as mentioned above, Orks can survive way more than Marines can. Marines don't survive with their heads gone. Orks do, if they get a Dok in the hour or so.

So you are saying.. Make Orks 2w T5? Ok I can get behind that.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Why would a Marine have the same Wounds as a Guardsman? Its fine they are 2 wounds. I mean ffs they have multiple extra organs lol. Yes let them have 2w.

I can do better than that. Why does an Imp have the same W score as a grot/ratling? If you increase W score of poster boys than you have to update Imps too or just don´t bother.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Why would a Marine have the same Wounds as a Guardsman? Its fine they are 2 wounds. I mean ffs they have multiple extra organs lol. Yes let them have 2w.

I can do better than that. Why does an Imp have the same W score as a grot/ratling? If you increase W score of poster boys than you have to update Imps too or just don´t bother.

I can do you even better, why are Grots not swarms?

PS: Also 1w is the lowest amount, you can't go to 1/2 wounds lol.

 Da Boss wrote:
I reckon if they're going to go for a paradigm of using wounds to differentiate between different units, they'd be well served reducing the game size down to a couple of squads, a couple of heroes and a vehicle or two. The sort of size Warmachine used to be played at during Mk2. That was a game that used damage well, but it got unwieldy at bigger game sizes tracking all the damage on your units and so on.

Warhammer has taken a lot of stuff from Warmachine over the past while, having a similar game size would make sense. It would also help with the shrunken battlefields.

Look at 2E battle reports. That's basically what the game used to be. 1K in 9th is a comparable number of models to 2K in 2nd.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Why would a Marine have the same Wounds as a Guardsman? Its fine they are 2 wounds. I mean ffs they have multiple extra organs lol. Yes let them have 2w.

Because it's completely arbitrary either way. Why should a Marine have more Wounds than a super-advanced Necron Warrior construct with near-indestructible alloy structure, or an Ork with no vital organs and ability to survive decapitation? It's just gameplay effect.

Once upon a time it was a given that any human-sized model was W1, and Toughness was used to represent durability. You've got multiple extra organs and are massively tougher than a normal human? Cool, you're T4. This is the 41st millennium and a mass-reactive bolt isn't going to leave much of your torso either way; being a normal human or a Big Human doesn't make that much difference.

Marines at W2 throw off that paradigm, and there isn't any clear distinction between Wounds and Toughness as a means of representing, well, toughness. Throw in Gravis armor adding Wounds and basically all pretense to a logical system goes out the window.

+1 to catbarf.

 catbarf wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Why would a Marine have the same Wounds as a Guardsman? Its fine they are 2 wounds. I mean ffs they have multiple extra organs lol. Yes let them have 2w.

Because it's completely arbitrary either way. Why should a Marine have more Wounds than a super-advanced Necron Warrior construct with near-indestructible alloy structure, or an Ork with no vital organs and ability to survive decapitation? It's just gameplay effect.

Once upon a time it was a given that any human-sized model was W1, and Toughness was used to represent durability. You've got multiple extra organs and are massively tougher than a normal human? Cool, you're T4. This is the 41st millennium and a mass-reactive bolt isn't going to leave much of your torso either way; being a normal human or a Big Human doesn't make that much difference.

Marines at W2 throw off that paradigm, and there isn't any clear distinction between Wounds and Toughness as a means of representing, well, toughness. Throw in Gravis armor adding Wounds and basically all pretense to a logical system goes out the window.

And back then, usually the only things with multiple wounds were characters, big monsters and (later) vehicles, and even then things rarely had more than 3 wounds.

The paradigm already shifted at the start of 8th, when characters went up to having 5 (or 3/4 for minor characters that had a single wound before) wounds each and monsters and vehicles went up to having wounds in the double digits.

SemperMortis wrote:

Using fluff as a tool to measure out how tough a unit should be is....useless. In fluff an ork can survive having its head cut off and sewn back on. Does that mean orkz need 3 wounds each?

No, because in literally every bit of fluff where Orks fight everything that isn't Tyranids, Daemons, or maybe Imperial Guard ork boyz are fodder and die in far greater numbers to whatever it is they are fighting. There are bordering on zero battles in the 40k universe involving the Orks where they don't massively outnumber whoever they are fighting that isn't one of the three factions I named, and sometimes (probably most of the time tbh) they lose those battles.

Consider also that it is only Space Marines in power armour that gain the extra wound. Scouts have just the one wound, and less toughness than the ork. Presumably this is meant to represent the life support functions that Astartes power armour has that can keep a Marine fighting when normally they would no longer be able to. By comparison once you hit an ork boy with something hard enough to take it out of the fight it is out of the fight barring outside interference.

In fluff orkz put out more dakka then any other faction in the game, does that mean our basic shoota should have 6 shots? (Honestly it could and shoota boyz still wouldn't be good )

Sure, lol. I have no problem with Ork shooting units that need buffs getting them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 catbarf wrote:


Why should a Marine have more Wounds than a super-advanced Necron Warrior construct with near-indestructible alloy structure

Necron warriors are the mass-produced dogshit of the Necrons.

If you're talking about immortals then immortals should indeed be two wounds.

I read some stories where Imperial Guardsmen took space marines out in melee without taking a single casualty. I look forward to that being represented in the rules.

Marines having higher BS and WS, S, T, W makes sense. It's how they should be. Everything else can be debated, such as the prevalence of D2 weapons, or their point cost or anything else, but the now base stats of marines makes perfect sense and power armour should not give that buff to anything but marines.

There are many many many issues with the game, 2W marines is not one of them, in fact marines are becoming more and more less important as the edition evolves with new factions.

Prediction, Tau will absolutely spank marines with shooting, absolutely no issue at all.

 Da Boss wrote:
I read some stories where Imperial Guardsmen took space marines out in melee without taking a single casualty. I look forward to that being represented in the rules.

It is, in the sense that it is entirely possible for a squad of ten or so guardsmen to take out five marines or so on the charge. It's just not very likely.

Now, let me ask you this, can you say, in all sincerity, that those stories come anywhere close to the number where marines getting into close combat with guardsmen doesn't result in the entire squad getting mulched? Can you claim that the majority of times you've read about marines fighting random un-augmented humans, guardsmen or whatever, the marines weren't able to literally decapitate the humans with punches?

Also, I assume you're talking about Black Library, but I'm really not. There are bordering on if not literally zero stories where the Orkz don't massively outnumber their opponent as long as they aren't fighting another horde faction like Tyranids. Do you dispute that Space Marine kill ratios towards Ork Boyz tend to skew very hard in the favor of the Marines, even when they ultimately lose to the Orkz?

Orkz are a horde faction at the troop level. Made of tougher stuff than other horde troops, but they still tend to die in droves in firefights with more elite factions. Does anyone have a compelling reason why it shouldn't be this way? I don't understand this obsession some people have with making whatever their horde unit of choice on par with or better than marines. I'm primarily a daemons player. Not only do I not mind Bloodletters being much more fragile and less elite than Space Marines, I prefer it this way, because Chaos Daemons tend to attack as a horde of monsters that pour into realspace. It would be stupid for a Bloodletter to be on par with or better than a marine overall, which isn't to say that they can't seriously threaten or kill marines in their specialty, which in their case would be melee combat.

Oh I haven't been disputing anything.

I'm curious to know what stories other than black library have this amount of super powerful space marine stuff in them. To me it seems that the number of stories of Space Marines winning comes down to the sheer number of publications they are in.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:


Orkz are a horde faction at the troop level. Made of tougher stuff than other horde troops, but they still tend to die in droves in firefights with more elite factions. Does anyone have a compelling reason why it shouldn't be this way? I don't understand this obsession some people have with making whatever their horde unit of choice on par with or better than marines. I'm primarily a daemons player. Not only do I not mind Bloodletters being much more fragile and less elite than Space Marines, I prefer it this way, because Chaos Daemons tend to attack as a horde of monsters that pour into realspace. It would be stupid for a Bloodletter to be on par with or better than a marine overall, which isn't to say that they can't seriously threaten or kill marines in their specialty, which in their case would be melee combat.

Honestly, I would be perfectly fine with the current relationship where generally my horde units get mowed down by marines because I understand that much like was obviously demonstrated by all of 8th, horde units have an inherent advantage in moveblocking, objective controlling and table footprint so if theyre ever on par with or better than elites in a head to head fight, the elites always win. What I would want in return however is more of a normalization of unit recycling/resurrecting mechanics like we see in age of sigmar, where light infantry tends to cost even more per model but factored in to that cost is the fact that endless hordes actually act somewhat endless in AOS - units youve sacrificed as chaff can be recycled back in, summoned, "rallied" etc.

that would also help people actually get into the horde factions as opposed to now where you need to spend 3x-4x as much money to have a horde faction.

There used to be some great short stories in white dwarf 20-25 years ago. Marines used to get pasted in them, a specific one was the scythes of the emporer drop podding during a tyranid invasion, they briefly turned the tide then started to fall...

Exactly as you would expect, powerful force that can make a difference as long as they can operate quickly and avoid attrition. I think the guardsmen who's POV the story was written with committed suicide once the marines started toppling to avoid being torn apart by rippers.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:


Orkz are a horde faction at the troop level. Made of tougher stuff than other horde troops, but they still tend to die in droves in firefights with more elite factions. Does anyone have a compelling reason why it shouldn't be this way? I don't understand this obsession some people have with making whatever their horde unit of choice on par with or better than marines. I'm primarily a daemons player. Not only do I not mind Bloodletters being much more fragile and less elite than Space Marines, I prefer it this way, because Chaos Daemons tend to attack as a horde of monsters that pour into realspace. It would be stupid for a Bloodletter to be on par with or better than a marine overall, which isn't to say that they can't seriously threaten or kill marines in their specialty, which in their case would be melee combat.

Honestly, I would be perfectly fine with the current relationship where generally my horde units get mowed down by marines because I understand that much like was obviously demonstrated by all of 8th, horde units have an inherent advantage in moveblocking, objective controlling and table footprint so if theyre ever on par with or better than elites in a head to head fight, the elites always win. What I would want in return however is more of a normalization of unit recycling/resurrecting mechanics like we see in age of sigmar, where light infantry tends to cost even more per model but factored in to that cost is the fact that endless hordes actually act somewhat endless in AOS - units youve sacrificed as chaff can be recycled back in, summoned, "rallied" etc.

that would also help people actually get into the horde factions as opposed to now where you need to spend 3x-4x as much money to have a horde faction.

I don't play AoS so forgive the ignorance, but how does that interact with objectives, specifically in the opponents deployment zone? As taking them, and holding them could be a challenge even for tough units if they are guaranteed to have 30 guardsmen with orders bearing down on them.

I like the idea of the mechanic, and it's good that a recycling cost is already baked in, but even S3 0AP weapons can be a problem if you have access to 100's of shots of them a turn. It just needs to be considered in regards to implementation as opposed to just doing it if you know what I mean.

Same with any horde factions... As someone who prefers a more narrative game, maybe I shouldn't be able to take and hold objectives in an Ork line if there are thousands more presumably behind that front line.

That, or well... you don't have objectives in deployment zones.

 catbarf wrote:

Marines at W2 throw off that paradigm, and there isn't any clear distinction between Wounds and Toughness as a means of representing, well, toughness. Throw in Gravis armor adding Wounds and basically all pretense to a logical system goes out the window.

You forgot, Gravis armor grants an extra wound AND T5. Just to further back up your point that there is no logical system in this game design.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Using fluff as a tool to measure out how tough a unit should be is....useless. In fluff an ork can survive having its head cut off and sewn back on. Does that mean orkz need 3 wounds each?

No, because in literally every bit of fluff where Orks fight everything that isn't Tyranids, Daemons, or maybe Imperial Guard ork boyz are fodder and die in far greater numbers to whatever it is they are fighting. There are bordering on zero battles in the 40k universe involving the Orks where they don't massively outnumber whoever they are fighting that isn't one of the three factions I named, and sometimes (probably most of the time tbh) they lose those battles.

Ok, lets expand upon this. Fluff means Marines should be better than Ork boyz because some fluff says a Marine can cut down dozens of them with ease. Some fluff says a Marine is LESS durable than a Boy because the boy can literally survive decapitation while the Marine absolutely can not. Orkz also have been seen to heal literally on the battlefield due to waaagh energy and the enticement of combat. So What you are in effect saying is that you want the fluff where Marines are gods of war, capable of slaying millions to be the official canon of the genre, and any other fluff that says other factions are better should be retconned. To further add to that, if 1 Marine is better than dozens of boyz, than since a Marine is 18ppm I need at least 0.5ppm ork boyz because otherwise how would my orkz ever have a chance to win? So i'll look forwad to .5ppm Ork boyz, so you can live out your fantasy of Marines being better than everyone else at everything.

Conversely, if we want to get away from nonsensical arguments, you could just go with my original comment which was "Using fluff as a tool to measure out how tough a unit should be is ....useless." Because...ITS USELESS.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Consider also that it is only Space Marines in power armour that gain the extra wound. Scouts have just the one wound, and less toughness than the ork. Presumably this is meant to represent the life support functions that Astartes power armour has that can keep a Marine fighting when normally they would no longer be able to. By comparison once you hit an ork boy with something hard enough to take it out of the fight it is out of the fight barring outside interference.

Except as i pointed out, we have fluff where an Ork on the battlefield has his head re-attached to his body and continues to fight. There is fluff where orkz literally have a PK grafted onto the still bleeding stump of their blown off arm and can immediately return to battle even stronger than before. So why should a Marine be better durability wise? Oh, because we are selectively choosing which fluff to use to justify our positions.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 catbarf wrote:

Why should a Marine have more Wounds than a super-advanced Necron Warrior construct with near-indestructible alloy structure

Necron warriors are the mass-produced dogshit of the Necrons.
If you're talking about immortals then immortals should indeed be two wounds.

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Marines having higher BS and WS, S, T, W makes sense. It's how they should be. Everything else can be debated, such as the prevalence of D2 weapons, or their point cost or anything else, but the now base stats of marines makes perfect sense and power armour should not give that buff to anything but marines.

Agreed, it just feels right.

There are many many many issues with the game, 2W marines is not one of them, in fact marines are becoming more and more less important as the edition evolves with new factions.

Which is a good thing, compared to the last year of 8th ed and first 6 months of 9th when 40K felt more like HH 2.0 with marines vs marines and little to nothing else.

Prediction, Tau will absolutely spank marines with shooting, absolutely no issue at all.

Again, as it should be. It would be worrying if Tau spanked anyone else in melee, but since shooting is the only way to go for them it would be worrying if they didn't. Right now they don't and the faction is basically unplayable.