Switch Theme:

2W marines should get rolled back to 1W  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut



Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

It seriously added nothing positive to the game except power/lethality creep and was nothing but a sales ploy
   
Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




it would shut my whiny chaos space marine mouth up about one thing... Make doctrines cost CP and chapter traits cost points and I’ll probably completely shut up.

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in us
On a Canoptek Spyder's Waiting List




It would definitely be one of the funniest things that GW could do
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






Agreed


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 GoldenHorde wrote:
It seriously added nothing positive to the game except power/lethality creep and was nothing but a sales ploy


Kaaaay. But making a model have two wounds and cost more points would make them more durable and less lethal. And giving the game a stratified set of units and weapons that work well against different units makes the game more interesting.

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 GoldenHorde wrote:
It seriously added nothing positive to the game except power/lethality creep and was nothing but a sales ploy


....No, actually, and it is weird I have to point this out, but it did not actually contribute to lethality creep to make marines all W2.

One might actually make the argument strange that it is, that adding all the extra stats to various weapons is what added to lethality creep....

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

No I like W2 Marines. Separates them from the chaff of other factions. Shows that they are super-soldiers.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Gw: "Don't be afraid of two wound Marines, we'll make heavy bolters do 2 damage to compensate!"

The public: "the advent of 2 wound Marines had no impact on the game's lethality"

EDIT:
as far as my actual opinion on the topic I am largely apathetic. SM still don't feel very super-soldiery (4th edition SM to down to regular lasguns like 9th edition SMs go down to FRFSRF lasguns) and I think super-soldiery is going to be impossible in a game where heavy artillery that can take out tanks with just the concussion of the detonation exists.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/10 01:33:48


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Marines should not have gone to 2w, I agree.

Also Primaris shouldn't be 2w. They should have been T5 or something.

actually Primaris shouldn't exist. . .


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
No I like W2 Marines. Separates them from the chaff of other factions. Shows that they are super-soldiers.
Imo use better mechanics to make them feel like super soldiers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/10 01:35:19


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Steadfast Grey Hunter






Primaris fanboy: "NO, you can't just give old marines 2W, they're supposed to be squatted!" GW: "Heavy Bolters go brrrrrrrr"

Primaris fanboy: "NO, you can't just give old marines 2W, they're supposed to be squatted!" GW: "Heavy Bolters go brrrrrrrr"
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

If the argument for their uniqueness is spamming Wulfen and Thunderwolves, then it wasn't really a unique army to begin with whether you like it or not.
nervous sweating
Regal Hunt, A custom space wolf army: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/774993.page#10435681 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Imo use better mechanics to make them feel like super soldiers.
I agree with W2 Marines for the same reasons I think T5 Orks are a good idea: Expediency.

Does either correctly represent their inherent superhuman traits/stubborn durability? No. But what it does is enhance them in a way that fits within existing mechanics, does not require the invention of a new mechanic/special rule, and lets you use it en masse quickly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/10 01:39:25


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Jimbobbyish wrote:
Primaris fanboy: "NO, you can't just give old marines 2W, they're supposed to be squatted!" GW: "Heavy Bolters go brrrrrrrr"
I see your Heavy Bolters and raise you with Grav Cannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Imo use better mechanics to make them feel like super soldiers.
I agree with W2 Marines for the same reasons I think T5 Orks are a good idea: Expediency.

Does either correctly represent their inherent superhuman traits/stubborn durability? No. But what it does is enhance them in a way that fits within existing mechanics, does not require the invention of a new mechanic/special rule, and lets you use it en masse quickly.
Not for CSM apparently.

Imo 1w marines were just fine. Right about when the SM 2.0 book landed (w/o supplements) Marines felt pretty good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/10 02:04:47


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

GW spreads out the defensive profiles by using more values of Toughness and Wounds and you want to go back? No. I think I'll pass.
   
Made in au
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






 Insectum7 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
No I like W2 Marines. Separates them from the chaff of other factions. Shows that they are super-soldiers.
Imo use better mechanics to make them feel like super soldiers.

Wounds and Toughness are literally the base mechanics designed to represent a soldier's ability to take damage. If not Wounds, then what other mechanics should one use? FNP? Transhuman?
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Cheex wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
No I like W2 Marines. Separates them from the chaff of other factions. Shows that they are super-soldiers.
Imo use better mechanics to make them feel like super soldiers.

Wounds and Toughness are literally the base mechanics designed to represent a soldier's ability to take damage. If not Wounds, then what other mechanics should one use? FNP? Transhuman?
Why focus on damage? Better morale mechanics and better Grenade mechanics have done plenty for Marines in the past. Initiative has also played its part. Go even further back and you have better equipment and immunity/protection from poison and radiation effects, as well as better ability to see in the dark and through obscuring smoke. At times Leadership has been used for freedom of target selection too even.

Everything has been reduced to damage input and output. It's sad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/10 03:27:50


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think that given how much lethality has already increased for many armies, its too late to turn back the clock on 2W marines.

Tons of armies are going to evaporate with the current lethality in the game if we go back to 1W marines. Just look at CSM marines. They just evaporate under any amount of fire. Berserkers are literally a one shot use unit because they usually all die after their charge and first attack.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Insectum7 wrote:
Why focus on damage? Better morale mechanics and better Grenade mechanics have done plenty for Marines in the past. Initiative has also played its part. Go even further back and you have better equipment and immunity/protection from poison and radiation effects, as well as better ability to see in the dark and through obscuring smoke. At times Leadership has been used for freedom of target selection too even.

Everything has been reduced to damage input and output. It's sad.


Those things make marines feel elite, but they don't really keep them alive. A twin assault cannon isn't going to care if 1 wound marines have good grenades. Marines rarely fail morale at present.

You could have some of those things and W2 marines and give people list building choices that aren't just "more of x".

   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Hmm. . . Almost like the game could be too lethal. I think I've heard that criticism before, I dunno. . .

As for morale, Marines failing morale or not these days isnt the issue. But morale in the old days was a mechanic that would suppress/wipe out other less elite units, in turn making marines feel more elite in comparison.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/10 04:20:16


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot






Eldenfirefly wrote:
I think that given how much lethality has already increased for many armies, its too late to turn back the clock on 2W marines.

Tons of armies are going to evaporate with the current lethality in the game if we go back to 1W marines. Just look at CSM marines. They just evaporate under any amount of fire. Berserkers are literally a one shot use unit because they usually all die after their charge and first attack.


Sure is, I run World Eaters and I'm surprised if any of my Berzerker squads survive a round outside of a Rhino.
   
Made in us
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

I still say 2W marines were a mistake and it should have never been done.

Of course, if they hadn't screwed up the "to wound" chart, it wouldn't have been needed in the first place.

It never ends well 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





2W Marines was a big help in diversifying the "elite troop" unit types; MEQs don't really exist anymore since the baseline numbers of (say) a Tactical and an Immortal are actually different now. There's even diversity within marines, the anti-marine heavy bolter is pretty bad against Plague Marines.
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 Stormonu wrote:
I still say 2W marines were a mistake and it should have never been done.

Of course, if they hadn't screwed up the "to wound" chart, it wouldn't have been needed in the first place.


I don't really agree with that. The changes to the wound chart only made space marine infantry harder to kill. (S 6 and 7 went from 2+ to 3+ vs T4). Going back to an AP system had much more of an effect, as did the general increase in attacks and shots.

Plus, 'space marines don't feel elite' has been a perennial complaint since Rogue Trader. Hence Toughness 3 to Toughness 4, Power armor 4+ to 3+, various leadership immunity shenanigans (loyalists only), overwatch being briefly space marine only and various tertiary buffs over the years, because GW literally thinks it isn't 'proper' if Space Marines aren't better than the opposition, and have openly said so.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




For context: marines are probably my tertiary army. I mainly play various flavors of eldar.

My stance on the second wound hasn't really changed since they first got it. It feels fluffy, helps them stand out compared to other factions, and removes some of the feels bad of getting wasted by lucky lasgun fire. Making marines more durable and less numerous (due to their points increase) seems appropriate for them.

What I'm not a huge fan of is all the weapons that seem to have gotten a power boost purely to keep up with marine durability (thus defeating the point). Heavy bolters, splinter cannons, and incubus klaives probably didn't need the Damage boost. But I think part of the reason those damage boosts happened was that GW didn't take away any of the buffs they gave 1W marines back when they were struggling. If you kept the second wound but backed off on things like doctrines, we'd probably be okay.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Arachnofiend wrote:
2W Marines was a big help in diversifying the "elite troop" unit types; MEQs don't really exist anymore since the baseline numbers of (say) a Tactical and an Immortal are actually different now. There's even diversity within marines, the anti-marine heavy bolter is pretty bad against Plague Marines.
Previous editions have already given us examples of diversifying those units without 2W. Original Immortals had T5 and resurrection abilities over the Marine T4. Plague Marines with a 5+++ and/or T5 also become their own thing. 2W isn't needed for this.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
2W Marines was a big help in diversifying the "elite troop" unit types; MEQs don't really exist anymore since the baseline numbers of (say) a Tactical and an Immortal are actually different now. There's even diversity within marines, the anti-marine heavy bolter is pretty bad against Plague Marines.
Previous editions have already given us examples of diversifying those units without 2W. Original Immortals had T5 and resurrection abilities over the Marine T4. Plague Marines with a 5+++ and/or T5 also become their own thing. 2W isn't needed for this.

I started playing in 5th, and honestly? Marines always felt weirdly squishy until they got the 2nd wound. 2 W makes them appreciably harder to take down with small arms fire but leaves them vulnerable to nastier weapons. Which is what I expect. It's a simpler, less swingy mechanic than something like 5+++ plague marines. There are other ways to represent marine durability, but I really don't see why 2W is a bad approach. Wounds are HP. Marines have more HP than guardsmen and space elves.
   
Made in au
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend




Australia

No thanks.

The Circle of Iniquity
The Fourth Seal
(HN) wrote:
It's an objectively mediocre book from the rule, lore, edition, content, hobby point of view.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Wyldhunt wrote:
There are other ways to represent marine durability, but I really don't see why 2W is a bad approach. Wounds are HP. Marines have more HP than guardsmen and space elves.
That's the toughness stat.

Are Narines supposed to have more HP than Orks and Necrons? They do now.


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

SM are already super soldiers. No one else has that many special rules.

I don't really care about 2W, IMHO the real mistake is to release T5 3W models for quite cheap. They're mostly the reason why SM vehicles feel kinda obsolete, and in fact 3 gravis dudes pretty much have the same profile of a tank.

 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

It's never gonna happen, the marine power increase train has only ever been in one direction since rogue trader. 40K background material is by and large marine power fantasy stuff, and the game tries to represent that (not that well or consistently) by increasing their durability.

Marine durability was already well represented by T4 and a 3+ save, and the idea that they should be immune to small arms fire is really silly in my view. An old Lasgun shot had 1/3x1/2/x1/3 = 1/18 chance of killing a marine. 18 lasgun shots per dead marine seems to perfectly represent a space marine. By comparison to a guardsman 1/2x1/2x2/3 = 1/6 chance, or 6 shots per dead guardsman. 3 times as durable seems fine to me, but apparently people wanted 6 times as durable, 36 shots to kill a space marine.

And of course, then GW just upped the number of shots or number of wounds caused by each individual shot.
Whatever.

   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







 Jimbobbyish wrote:
Primaris fanboy: "NO, you can't just give old marines 2W, they're supposed to be squatted!" GW: "Heavy Bolters go brrrrrrrr"


This post doesn't make any sense.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: