Cronch wrote:
Ah yes, the one antifa dude vs how many alt-right church/shopping center shooters? The whattaboutism is off the charts.

This isn't about if "the woke people think you're a bad person because you said gay people catching AIDS is god's punishment", it's about "should a person with obviously alt-right/neonazi symbolism on their clothes be allowed into an event".

We've went through "but Stalin", and when no one jumped to defend that ol' monster it's now to "but wokes", anything to not say outright that blatant neo-nazis have no place at warhammer tournaments.

 ScarletRose wrote:

Cronch wrote:
Ah yes, the one antifa dude vs how many alt-right church/shopping center shooters? The whattaboutism is off the charts.

This isn't about if "the woke people think you're a bad person because you said gay people catching AIDS is god's punishment", it's about "should a person with obviously alt-right/neonazi symbolism on their clothes be allowed into an event".

We've went through "but Stalin", and when no one jumped to defend that ol' monster it's now to "but wokes", anything to not say outright that blatant neo-nazis have no place at warhammer tournaments.

You have to appreciate the recasting of "rightwing brawler who came out to start a fight and got one" became "poor innocent MAGA-head who was just handing out candy to children". Some top-tier revisionism there.

 posermcbogus wrote:
How much rope can I be expected to give someone who views me as subhuman? Who would reduce the value of my friends to how much labor they can produce in relation to the calories they consume? Who would take the institutions I hold dear and undermine and subvert them to their own ends? Who brazenly say "I wish to pervert the justice system, exploit liberal democracy, doctor history to deny my crimes, and absolve my martyrs, at the expense of all of those institutions, which I seek to destroy, and I have no shame about the terroristic violence I wish to use for those aims", to those who would reduce my children to ratios of 'pure' blood and pseudo-scientific cranial measurements? Greater men than I would say, "just enough that their feet can't touch the ground."
For those of you who think maybe we could try to be permissive about this particular breed of extremist in civil society - ask the German Jewish people, the trade unionists, the social democrats, the conscientious objectors, the mixed-race children, the handicapped, the socialists, ad infinitum of 1930s Germany, just how well that experiment worked for their society. They might have a hard time answering you.
There is a very good reason that these groups have to endlessly go into hiding, re-group and re-brand. Very simply put, it's because by their very nature, they cannot refrain from breaking the law. There is an inevitability to their criminality, purely out of the nature of their worldview. Because that is the kind of creature a fascist is. He is a terrorist. There is nothing more to be said about someone who subscribes to an ideology of racialist war.
How would you feel as the father of a nerdy Jewish boy, coming home from this tournament, too flustered and scared to say anything at the time? As a black kid suddenly finding out that this was their partner? As any number of Spanish minorities whose inalienable right to exist as an inoffensive, innocent, beautiful and inherently valuable member of the human race, simply trying to have a fun weekend was deliberately and knowingly attacked by this man? An attack completely, if accounts are accurate, upheld and protected by the TO?

Have any of you actually been in a situation where you've encountered actual exterminationists? Like, not gakky footie hooligans who have a vague notion of like, this thing they heard of called sharia law, and have nothing even resembling comprehension of, but they've been told they wouldn't like it, but like, actual people calling for genocide?

I have.

It's unreal.

I was on a date with a Korean lover of mine, when in Osaka we took a wrong turn, and found ourselves face to face with a convoy of Imperialists, calling on the government to retract all it's (very few) apologies for the war, go back to the military government and the immediate deportation of all Koreans.

It's a unique feeling.

I'll never forget it. There isn't anything that stings quite like the injustice of looking down into the face of someone you love, and them trying to put a brave smile on it, grimacing at what had been the previously pleasant discussion about what to have for lunch and saying saying "no, it's fine, it happens" when really it's not fine, nothing about that situation is fair, and it shouldn't happen. No one trying to have fun, minding their own business, should have a reminder thrown in their faces that actually, some people regard them as subhuman, and loudly want them to suffer. Against a stream of military-styled pickup trucks, you become very aware that you are just one man, sinew, bones, soft tissue.

Nothing about a Sunday afternoon of fun should involve that for anyone, ever, it's fethed up.

This is an event, widely publicized now, which indirectly reflects on all of us. This is a hobby we share with this man. How many of you are willing to say "Yes, I'd see this man, shrug my shoulders and move along?"

The fething slippery goalposts of people trying to divert the conversation to be about "Yes, well I also hate other kinds of political extremists! Did you know communists are also very, very bad?" are missing the point appallingly hard. I know the OP is a bit strongly worded. I know the article linked by OP is VERY strongly worded. But you're all missing the point by a country mile here. But you know what? Nazis went out of their way to kill millions, and start a war that killed millions more. I think people are entitled to a strong reaction.

Because, as much as this thread FEATURES a neo-nazi, it's not really about neo-nazis. It's about us, as a community. It's about our reaction, in gaming, to someone deliberately being SO anti-social in this hobby, about bending rules and manipulating social norms just so they can signpost their repugnant views at one of OUR community events, about using OUR space to try to make an environment that accepts this kind of exterminationist, racist bs, and what we as individuals, and what we as a community would, can, and should do to make this hobby a better place, not only for ourselves, and our own personal comfort, but for everyone.
Nerds aren't only white Europeans. Nerds come in a whole, wonderful, nerdy rainbow, with fascinations in all kinds of stuff. They enrich our own nerddom with their ideas, their views, with their enthusiasms for things we hadn't even heard of, but sound pretty cool. If we deny them a place at our table, we hurt ourselves, because at the end of the day, we're all here because we really like silly nerdy stuff.
My local GW was at the periphery between the town center, and a really deprived part of town. I want to live in a world where nerdy kids who grew up poor, or from a minorty background can feel just as welcomed and comfortable walking into that GW as I do. Who can leave all the bs of microagressions, of societal expectations, of school, bullies, work, stress, whatever, at the door, and talk about skeleton warriors, can be excited about space marines, can roll dice with me, and break bread.
Exterminationists? Nazis? To that ancient question - "who will help me bake this bread?" They would shoot all the animals who were not capable of toiling in the field, would enslave their children in dangerous kitchens, and end up with a world where all eat maggot-filled flour, hiding in a concrete ruin.

This is a fething forum for playing with little space men for feth's sake. What is so hard for some of you with this? Any kind of ideology that espouses this drivel is abhorrent. This guy is a sad little scumbag. The Tourney is weak for not just giving him the boot, and for once, I actually hope GWs judicious IP lawyers are well-placed. Sod fan animations, this is what they should be going after. And really, this kind of anti-social, hate-filled, violence-promoting behavior is something that should be easy for all of us to condemn.

It's odd that it's so hard for some of you.

 posermcbogus wrote:
How much rope can I be expected to give someone who views me as subhuman? Who would reduce the value of my friends to how much labor they can produce in relation to the calories they consume? Who would take the institutions I hold dear and undermine and subvert them to their own ends? Who brazenly say "I wish to pervert the justice system, exploit liberal democracy, doctor history to deny my crimes, and absolve my martyrs, at the expense of all of those institutions, which I seek to destroy, and I have no shame about the terroristic violence I wish to use for those aims", to those who would reduce my children to ratios of 'pure' blood and pseudo-scientific cranial measurements? Greater men than I would say, "just enough that their feet can't touch the ground."
For those of you who think maybe we could try to be permissive about this particular breed of extremist in civil society - ask the German Jewish people, the trade unionists, the social democrats, the conscientious objectors, the mixed-race children, the handicapped, the socialists, ad infinitum of 1930s Germany, just how well that experiment worked for their society. They might have a hard time answering you.
There is a very good reason that these groups have to endlessly go into hiding, re-group and re-brand. Very simply put, it's because by their very nature, they cannot refrain from breaking the law. There is an inevitability to their criminality, purely out of the nature of their worldview. Because that is the kind of creature a fascist is. He is a terrorist. There is nothing more to be said about someone who subscribes to an ideology of racialist war.
How would you feel as the father of a nerdy Jewish boy, coming home from this tournament, too flustered and scared to say anything at the time? As a black kid suddenly finding out that this was their partner? As any number of Spanish minorities whose inalienable right to exist as an inoffensive, innocent, beautiful and inherently valuable member of the human race, simply trying to have a fun weekend was deliberately and knowingly attacked by this man? An attack completely, if accounts are accurate, upheld and protected by the TO?

Have any of you actually been in a situation where you've encountered actual exterminationists? Like, not gakky footie hooligans who have a vague notion of like, this thing they heard of called sharia law, and have nothing even resembling comprehension of, but they've been told they wouldn't like it, but like, actual people calling for genocide?

I have.

It's unreal.

I was on a date with a Korean lover of mine, when in Osaka we took a wrong turn, and found ourselves face to face with a convoy of Imperialists, calling on the government to retract all it's (very few) apologies for the war, go back to the military government and the immediate deportation of all Koreans.

It's a unique feeling.

I'll never forget it. There isn't anything that stings quite like the injustice of looking down into the face of someone you love, and them trying to put a brave smile on it, grimacing at what had been the previously pleasant discussion about what to have for lunch and saying saying "no, it's fine, it happens" when really it's not fine, nothing about that situation is fair, and it shouldn't happen. No one trying to have fun, minding their own business, should have a reminder thrown in their faces that actually, some people regard them as subhuman, and loudly want them to suffer. Against a stream of military-styled pickup trucks, you become very aware that you are just one man, sinew, bones, soft tissue.

Nothing about a Sunday afternoon of fun should involve that for anyone, ever, it's fethed up.

This is an event, widely publicized now, which indirectly reflects on all of us. This is a hobby we share with this man. How many of you are willing to say "Yes, I'd see this man, shrug my shoulders and move along?"

The fething slippery goalposts of people trying to divert the conversation to be about "Yes, well I also hate other kinds of political extremists! Did you know communists are also very, very bad?" are missing the point appallingly hard. I know the OP is a bit strongly worded. I know the article linked by OP is VERY strongly worded. But you're all missing the point by a country mile here. But you know what? Nazis went out of their way to kill millions, and start a war that killed millions more. I think people are entitled to a strong reaction.

Because, as much as this thread FEATURES a neo-nazi, it's not really about neo-nazis. It's about us, as a community. It's about our reaction, in gaming, to someone deliberately being SO anti-social in this hobby, about bending rules and manipulating social norms just so they can signpost their repugnant views at one of OUR community events, about using OUR space to try to make an environment that accepts this kind of exterminationist, racist bs, and what we as individuals, and what we as a community would, can, and should do to make this hobby a better place, not only for ourselves, and our own personal comfort, but for everyone.
Nerds aren't only white Europeans. Nerds come in a whole, wonderful, nerdy rainbow, with fascinations in all kinds of stuff. They enrich our own nerddom with their ideas, their views, with their enthusiasms for things we hadn't even heard of, but sound pretty cool. If we deny them a place at our table, we hurt ourselves, because at the end of the day, we're all here because we really like silly nerdy stuff.
My local GW was at the periphery between the town center, and a really deprived part of town. I want to live in a world where nerdy kids who grew up poor, or from a minorty background can feel just as welcomed and comfortable walking into that GW as I do. Who can leave all the bs of microagressions, of societal expectations, of school, bullies, work, stress, whatever, at the door, and talk about skeleton warriors, can be excited about space marines, can roll dice with me, and break bread.
Exterminationists? Nazis? To that ancient question - "who will help me bake this bread?" They would shoot all the animals who were not capable of toiling in the field, would enslave their children in dangerous kitchens, and end up with a world where all eat maggot-filled flour, hiding in a concrete ruin.

This is a fething forum for playing with little space men for feth's sake. What is so hard for some of you with this? Any kind of ideology that espouses this drivel is abhorrent. This guy is a sad little scumbag. The Tourney is weak for not just giving him the boot, and for once, I actually hope GWs judicious IP lawyers are well-placed. Sod fan animations, this is what they should be going after. And really, this kind of anti-social, hate-filled, violence-promoting behavior is something that should be easy for all of us to condemn.

It's odd that it's so hard for some of you.

I think you are looking a bit hard to find people that defend Nazis to the point you are seeing them everywhere.

 GoldenHorde wrote:
There's no such thing as whataboutism.

It's called introspection and it's clear not only are you incapable of having it you're against the entire concept.

If you're that Upsetti spaghetti when people point out violence caused by certain -isms that's on you.

If you're pissed about being called out for looking the other way on these things, that's on you.

You either have a consistent principle on violent ideologies or you don't..

It's your choice to be an intellectual coward at the end of the day. Be my guest

The fact you presume to know exactly why people mention other violent ideologies being tolerated, and want to open it up to wider discussion is the height of arrogance.

The tribalist ism schism being pushed by certain groups is so dull and tiring.

Cronch wrote:

I think you are looking a bit hard to find people that defend Nazis to the point you are seeing them everywhere.

Would it hurt your feelings less if I called him alleged neo-nazi/whitepower-er/alt-righter? I mean, just because he's wearing a symbol that's a bunch of swastikas having an orgy doesn't mean he's a nazi, he could just be entirely unaware of the last 80 years of european history.

Seriously, the cope is off the charts on that post.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Cool post bruh, copy pasted directly from the far right activist playbook.

Catulle wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Cool post bruh, copy pasted directly from the far right activist playbook.

It's a neat demonstration of *why* it is so very important to some that these conversations cannot be permitted (hence the repeated attempts to troll for the thread closure) and simultaneously how important it is that we do continue to have them.

 GoldenHorde wrote:

Cronch wrote:

I think you are looking a bit hard to find people that defend Nazis to the point you are seeing them everywhere.

Would it hurt your feelings less if I called him alleged neo-nazi/whitepower-er/alt-righter? I mean, just because he's wearing a symbol that's a bunch of swastikas having an orgy doesn't mean he's a nazi, he could just be entirely unaware of the last 80 years of european history.

Seriously, the cope is off the charts on that post.

80 Years?

Marx was doing antisemitism long before the Nazis were even a fart in the wind.

Funny how there's an attempt try to bag up a long past of European antisemitism and ascribing it wholly to the nazis/

 GoldenHorde wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Anyways, back on topic. Who here thinks GW will make a statement about this in the coming week? Any chance that the TOs will lose GW support?

So you think its a good idea that GW should collectively punish the Spanish competitive scene for the actions of a fringe group?

Wow, talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater

 Togusa wrote:

 GoldenHorde wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Anyways, back on topic. Who here thinks GW will make a statement about this in the coming week? Any chance that the TOs will lose GW support?

So you think its a good idea that GW should collectively punish the Spanish competitive scene for the actions of a fringe group?

Wow, talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater

Did I say that? No.

I asked if that is one of the OPTIONS the company might consider doing, as in "Who here thinks that the TOs will lose GW support" which is not the same thing as saying "I hope the TOs will lose GW support." Jesus Christ Dakkites, stop making these insinuations in order to START fights.

 posermcbogus wrote:
How much rope can I be expected to give someone who views me as subhuman? Who would reduce the value of my friends to how much labor they can produce in relation to the calories they consume? Who would take the institutions I hold dear and undermine and subvert them to their own ends? Who brazenly say "I wish to pervert the justice system, exploit liberal democracy, doctor history to deny my crimes, and absolve my martyrs, at the expense of all of those institutions, which I seek to destroy, and I have no shame about the terroristic violence I wish to use for those aims", to those who would reduce my children to ratios of 'pure' blood and pseudo-scientific cranial measurements? Greater men than I would say, "just enough that their feet can't touch the ground."
For those of you who think maybe we could try to be permissive about this particular breed of extremist in civil society - ask the German Jewish people, the trade unionists, the social democrats, the conscientious objectors, the mixed-race children, the handicapped, the socialists, ad infinitum of 1930s Germany, just how well that experiment worked for their society. They might have a hard time answering you.
There is a very good reason that these groups have to endlessly go into hiding, re-group and re-brand. Very simply put, it's because by their very nature, they cannot refrain from breaking the law. There is an inevitability to their criminality, purely out of the nature of their worldview. Because that is the kind of creature a fascist is. He is a terrorist. There is nothing more to be said about someone who subscribes to an ideology of racialist war.
How would you feel as the father of a nerdy Jewish boy, coming home from this tournament, too flustered and scared to say anything at the time? As a black kid suddenly finding out that this was their partner? As any number of Spanish minorities whose inalienable right to exist as an inoffensive, innocent, beautiful and inherently valuable member of the human race, simply trying to have a fun weekend was deliberately and knowingly attacked by this man? An attack completely, if accounts are accurate, upheld and protected by the TO?

Have any of you actually been in a situation where you've encountered actual exterminationists? Like, not gakky footie hooligans who have a vague notion of like, this thing they heard of called sharia law, and have nothing even resembling comprehension of, but they've been told they wouldn't like it, but like, actual people calling for genocide?

I have.

It's unreal.

I was on a date with a Korean lover of mine, when in Osaka we took a wrong turn, and found ourselves face to face with a convoy of Imperialists, calling on the government to retract all it's (very few) apologies for the war, go back to the military government and the immediate deportation of all Koreans.

It's a unique feeling.

I'll never forget it. There isn't anything that stings quite like the injustice of looking down into the face of someone you love, and them trying to put a brave smile on it, grimacing at what had been the previously pleasant discussion about what to have for lunch and saying saying "no, it's fine, it happens" when really it's not fine, nothing about that situation is fair, and it shouldn't happen. No one trying to have fun, minding their own business, should have a reminder thrown in their faces that actually, some people regard them as subhuman, and loudly want them to suffer. Against a stream of military-styled pickup trucks, you become very aware that you are just one man, sinew, bones, soft tissue.

Nothing about a Sunday afternoon of fun should involve that for anyone, ever, it's fethed up.

This is an event, widely publicized now, which indirectly reflects on all of us. This is a hobby we share with this man. How many of you are willing to say "Yes, I'd see this man, shrug my shoulders and move along?"

The fething slippery goalposts of people trying to divert the conversation to be about "Yes, well I also hate other kinds of political extremists! Did you know communists are also very, very bad?" are missing the point appallingly hard. I know the OP is a bit strongly worded. I know the article linked by OP is VERY strongly worded. But you're all missing the point by a country mile here. But you know what? Nazis went out of their way to kill millions, and start a war that killed millions more. I think people are entitled to a strong reaction.

Because, as much as this thread FEATURES a neo-nazi, it's not really about neo-nazis. It's about us, as a community. It's about our reaction, in gaming, to someone deliberately being SO anti-social in this hobby, about bending rules and manipulating social norms just so they can signpost their repugnant views at one of OUR community events, about using OUR space to try to make an environment that accepts this kind of exterminationist, racist bs, and what we as individuals, and what we as a community would, can, and should do to make this hobby a better place, not only for ourselves, and our own personal comfort, but for everyone.
Nerds aren't only white Europeans. Nerds come in a whole, wonderful, nerdy rainbow, with fascinations in all kinds of stuff. They enrich our own nerddom with their ideas, their views, with their enthusiasms for things we hadn't even heard of, but sound pretty cool. If we deny them a place at our table, we hurt ourselves, because at the end of the day, we're all here because we really like silly nerdy stuff.
My local GW was at the periphery between the town center, and a really deprived part of town. I want to live in a world where nerdy kids who grew up poor, or from a minorty background can feel just as welcomed and comfortable walking into that GW as I do. Who can leave all the bs of microagressions, of societal expectations, of school, bullies, work, stress, whatever, at the door, and talk about skeleton warriors, can be excited about space marines, can roll dice with me, and break bread.
Exterminationists? Nazis? To that ancient question - "who will help me bake this bread?" They would shoot all the animals who were not capable of toiling in the field, would enslave their children in dangerous kitchens, and end up with a world where all eat maggot-filled flour, hiding in a concrete ruin.

This is a fething forum for playing with little space men for feth's sake. What is so hard for some of you with this? Any kind of ideology that espouses this drivel is abhorrent. This guy is a sad little scumbag. The Tourney is weak for not just giving him the boot, and for once, I actually hope GWs judicious IP lawyers are well-placed. Sod fan animations, this is what they should be going after. And really, this kind of anti-social, hate-filled, violence-promoting behavior is something that should be easy for all of us to condemn.

It's odd that it's so hard for some of you.

 bullyboy wrote:
edit: nvm, this is turning into the shitshow that I expected

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:

 GoldenHorde wrote:

Cronch wrote:

I think you are looking a bit hard to find people that defend Nazis to the point you are seeing them everywhere.

Would it hurt your feelings less if I called him alleged neo-nazi/whitepower-er/alt-righter? I mean, just because he's wearing a symbol that's a bunch of swastikas having an orgy doesn't mean he's a nazi, he could just be entirely unaware of the last 80 years of european history.

Seriously, the cope is off the charts on that post.

80 Years?

Marx was doing antisemitism long before the Nazis were even a fart in the wind.

Funny how there's an attempt try to bag up a long past of European antisemitism and ascribing it wholly to the nazis/

FFS man, just drop this crap. Everyone just drop it and get back to the main point of the thread.

 Dysartes wrote:

Looking at said poster's history in this thread, do you really think they're contributing in good faith, or rather trying to get the thread locked?

 GoldenHorde wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Looking at said poster's history in this thread, do you really think they're contributing in good faith, or rather trying to get the thread locked?

How will you ever know since my posts have been censored?

Looking at past stalinist doctored history.......he's a bad guy!

I pointed out racist elements in the original linked article. I am not stepping down from that position.
You tell me about good faith here when a BS pretense is pulled to remove your posts standing up against abusive content in the wargaming community? Then clowns turn around and claim that I am trying to get threads closed.

It's telling the same mob of people crying about representation and have a quasi religious belief that absorbing media has a 1:1 effect, not only create but selectively dismisses issues within their own media.

Who cares about false attributions and racial profiling. Who cares about the disgustingly pejorative tone they write in about people who have nothing to do with nazis.

I'll call out this BS even if I go down in flames.
The people who write such garbage are gak humans. Enjoy your stupid degenerate tribalism.

 GoldenHorde wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 GoldenHorde wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
Anyways, back on topic. Who here thinks GW will make a statement about this in the coming week? Any chance that the TOs will lose GW support?

So you think its a good idea that GW should collectively punish the Spanish competitive scene for the actions of a fringe group?

Wow, talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater

Did I say that? No.

I asked if that is one of the OPTIONS the company might consider doing, as in "Who here thinks that the TOs will lose GW support" which is not the same thing as saying "I hope the TOs will lose GW support." Jesus Christ Dakkites, stop making these insinuations in order to START fights.

You're kind of inferring, when it's the only OPTION you mentioned. There's an insinuation right there.
So I asked you in an admitted slanted rhetorical question in which I wanted to push my opinion of such an option, in response.

So, do you think it's collective punishment or a fair option?

Cronch wrote:
To a straight, white-passing man the n*zis and their views are just another voice in the great theater of democracy.
To anyone else, it's a threat of violence based on history.

That much is clear from the thread.

 GoldenHorde wrote:
There's no such thing as whataboutism.

Whataboutism or whataboutery (as in "what about…?") is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy, which attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving the argument.

 GoldenHorde wrote:
It's your choice to be an intellectual coward at the end of the day. Be my guest

 ScarletRose wrote:

Cronch wrote:
Ah yes, the one antifa dude vs how many alt-right church/shopping center shooters? The whattaboutism is off the charts.

This isn't about if "the woke people think you're a bad person because you said gay people catching AIDS is god's punishment",

 ph34r wrote:

 GoldenHorde wrote:
There's no such thing as whataboutism.

Whataboutism or whataboutery (as in "what about…?") is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy, which attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving the argument.

 GoldenHorde wrote:
It's your choice to be an intellectual coward at the end of the day. Be my guest

Are you going to make the choice to be an intellectual bigboy and recant your "there's no such thing", or are you going to insist that a concept, a logical fallacy that you are making use of, one that objectively exists, in fact doesn't?

 CragHack wrote:
All I can say is that I'm equally offended by anyone who paints a 5 pointed red star/sickle and hammer on his IG. Or the 'red gobbo revolushon', because we all know where they've taken the thing from.

 ph34r wrote:
Well I'm glad that we can all agree that whataboutism does, in fact, exist.