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As in title. Honestly if I was at the tournament - as much as it would piss me off - I would take the bite and go for 0-100 loss. How he was not DQ by TO's is beyond me though, and I have seen tournaments here in the US where people have been DQed for much less.

It goes without saying to please keep a semblance of decorum when speaking with one another. If I can get my middle school kids to debate politely - I’m sure adults can manage! I am actually curious about what people say in this situation - as an educator, as a historian, but also as someone who is part of the wargaming community.

https://wilbur.ghost.io/warhammer-nazis/

edit: Also was wholly unsure of where to post this - I assumed as it was a tournament it would fall under this banner. If not, apologies mods and if you could please move to appropriate location

Also Edit:

From someone who was there:

 Galas wrote:
The guy was a neo nazi and his group were all neo nazis.

And the opponent that took the photos, and actually made his presence known to the public, and his group, had a verbal discussion with those idiots.

They said that if they were offended, they (The neo nazis) had the same right to be offended if they where feminists or homosexuals.

I won't say the TO's were simpatizers with any of this ideology. But as all the time, this pieces of gak played the victim card, and said that they would call the police, to report that they were being discriminated agaisnt by their ideology (the irony lol) so with a 800 person tournament the TO's didn't wanted any of that gak.


I don't believe the TO's did the right thing. And people like this shouldn't be in the hobby. Not only because of their ideology, but because it is clear that they were going to cause conflict with all those symbols and clothes.

It sucks but is just a small portion of the present day political climate. This kind of people exist in our hobby. And this is the kind of people GW told they would not be missed.

If the TOs won't kick him out, the answer is to surrender and/or leave, right?

Tournaments obviously cost money and all, but 40k is supposed to be about having fun, and playing against open fascists isn't fun. Seems pretty open-and-shut to me.

Imagine unironically wearing the symbology of an ideology that believed political authority could only be derived from violent strength, only to get bodied in the only war it ever fought in, over 70 years ago.

Like, unfortunately these chuds exist. Unfortunately, GW doesn't try hard enough to make it clear that its setting lampoons and denigrates Chauvanism, extremism, dogmatism, exterminationism and militarism, and that gives people like this breathing space. Honestly, there really isn't much to discuss here beyond it's unfortunate that TOs didn't step in, but that kinda just degenerates into gossiping about individuals, which is a bit inappropriate, considering rule 1.
I think in this situation, the best thing one can do is report it to the TO, and refuse to play, and draw as much attention as one can to the fact that it is because someone is openly wearing clothing that celebrates (and I suspect, also funds, because you'd have to go out of your way to buy that somewhere pretty specialist) an ideology that actively calls for violence and murder. I respect calling the issue to attention of the community, given the TOs did nothing, but really there's little else to talk about here beyond
"Eww, gross".
Because that's all it is. And it's a shame.

I was reading about this somewhere else. There are two symbols on this guy's shirt. One is clearly a bunch of interlinked Swastikas.

However, the other symbol I'm totally ignorant of, and I've seen many people complain about it. I've never seen the circled cross with arrows through it. That's a Nazi symbol???

 posermcbogus wrote:
Imagine unironically wearing the symbology of an ideology that believed political authority could only be derived from violent strength, only to get bodied in the only war it ever fought in, over 70 years ago.

Like, unfortunately these chuds exist. Unfortunately, GW doesn't try hard enough to make it clear that its setting lampoons and denigrates Chauvanism, extremism, dogmatism, exterminationism and militarism, and that gives people like this breathing space. Honestly, there really isn't much to discuss here beyond it's unfortunate that TOs didn't step in, but that kinda just degenerates into gossiping about individuals, which is a bit inappropriate, considering rule 1.
I think in this situation, the best thing one can do is report it to the TO, and refuse to play, and draw as much attention as one can to the fact that it is because someone is openly wearing clothing that celebrates (and I suspect, also funds, because you'd have to go out of your way to buy that somewhere pretty specialist) an ideology that actively calls for violence and murder. I respect calling the issue to attention of the community, given the TOs did nothing, but really there's little else to talk about here beyond
"Eww, gross".
Because that's all it is. And it's a shame.

Hm I enjoy this response. Follow up question - do you feel there is more blame on the individual, or the TO? Say for example you refuse to play this person and the TO nets you a full loss - would you place more blame on the individual wearing nazi items, or would you place more blame on the TO?

 cuda1179 wrote:
I was reading about this somewhere else. There are two symbols on this guy's shirt. One is clearly a bunch of interlinked Swastikas.

However, the other symbol I'm totally ignorant of, and I've seen many people complain about it. I've never seen the circled cross with arrows through it. That's a Nazi symbol???

I believe it’s a mixture of the iron cross and the three arrows. 3 arrows was a symbol used by the socialist Democratic Party in Germany. If anyone has more information by all means let me know.

Also of note, I think if we are going to ban people for their questionable political apparel, the tourney organizers need to make a blanket ban on most political groups, issues, etc. just to keep people from trying to push the envelope on what they can do. I can see many people of certain heritage taking offense to a Che Guevara shirt for instance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fidel wrote:

 posermcbogus wrote:
Imagine unironically wearing the symbology of an ideology that believed political authority could only be derived from violent strength, only to get bodied in the only war it ever fought in, over 70 years ago.

Like, unfortunately these chuds exist. Unfortunately, GW doesn't try hard enough to make it clear that its setting lampoons and denigrates Chauvanism, extremism, dogmatism, exterminationism and militarism, and that gives people like this breathing space. Honestly, there really isn't much to discuss here beyond it's unfortunate that TOs didn't step in, but that kinda just degenerates into gossiping about individuals, which is a bit inappropriate, considering rule 1.
I think in this situation, the best thing one can do is report it to the TO, and refuse to play, and draw as much attention as one can to the fact that it is because someone is openly wearing clothing that celebrates (and I suspect, also funds, because you'd have to go out of your way to buy that somewhere pretty specialist) an ideology that actively calls for violence and murder. I respect calling the issue to attention of the community, given the TOs did nothing, but really there's little else to talk about here beyond
"Eww, gross".
Because that's all it is. And it's a shame.

Hm I enjoy this response. Follow up question - do you feel there is more blame on the individual, or the TO? Say for example you refuse to play this person and the TO nets you a full loss - would you place more blame on the individual wearing nazi items, or would you place more blame on the TO?

I'd blame the individual. A while back there was chatter about people intentionally tanking matches to screw with the opponent's score cards. Many felt that if someone forfeits the match, the opponent should get full credit for winning specifically to avoid this "gaming the tourney, not the tabletop" mentality. If the TO's had agreed this was the way things were to be, I would fully support them not changing the rules mid event.

It's the venue's/TO fault.
You need clear rules barring such clothing prior to attendance.
If playing the guy, walk away, take the loss, and move on. It's the right thing to do.

I've been placed in a similar predicament previously. Working in fitness area of college years ago and guy comes in with sleeveless shirt, sporting swastika tattoo visible underneath parts of the shirt. Nobody complains, but I know for a fact that there are members in that facility who are concentration camp survivors and so I approach him and ask if he would cover the tatoo. I didn't try to throw him out, I had a discussion first. He was polite and stated that he didn't see why he should cover it while there are other members working out with known gang affiliation tatoos visible. At that point, I left him to his workout, contacted management regarding policy (was a weekend so nothing was done til following week), and the policy was simply changed to disallow sleeveless shirts.

so again, unless illegal, it's up to the tournament organizers/venue to create a clearcut policy. In the meantime, take the loss and move on.

Still feel the thread should be locked as I just don't see it going in a positive direction.

I would argue that no apparel that makes any kind of political statement at all should be allowed, with the exception of national flags (of current nations; no Nazi German or USSR flags, for instance). Of course, then you have to define what counts as a political statement and that could get messy and tedious.

Edit: just saw that cuda1179 just said basically the same thing, sorry I missed it somehow I definitely agree about this though.

fidel wrote:
Follow up question - do you feel there is more blame on the individual, or the TO? Say for example you refuse to play this person and the TO nets you a full loss - would you place more blame on the individual wearing nazi items, or would you place more blame on the TO?

It's hard to put like a numerical kind of figure on it, or say one party is worse than the other. On the one hand, the TO is responsible for what happens at the tournament. If they want to be permissive about this kind of thing, and happy to foster the kind of atmosphere where wearing clothes that actively signpost someone's interest in prejudicial violence is accepted, and if they want to ignore complaints about it, then that is on them. But also, I think there's probably an active desire on the part of the wearer to agitate in some way. Those are some pretty clear, unsubtle insignia.
As a mixed-race person, I'd refuse to play this guy. End of. I wouldn't really want to be near him at all, but I certainly wouldn't be about to spend however long playing toy soldiers with someone who thinks these are acceptable clothes to wear in public, let alone to meet strangers in.
If the TO warns me that I'd get a full loss, I'd fully throw the tournament. It's not a tourney worth winning, if it's a tourney that's happy with this kind of behavior. TBH, if I complained, and they did nothing, I'd throw the tournament, and try to get my money back. Those two things in and of themselves are enough of an administrative headache for the TO that like, in a very petty way would be a win for me.

To be very, very real here - anyone who publicly wears clothing with imagery that evokes politics that not only advocate for, but in the past, have killed millions, is not going to be socially well-adjusted. I've not got enough free time to spend it with someone that way inclined, I have pretty little patience for people as it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I would argue that no apparel that makes any kind of political statement at all should be allowed, with the exception of national flags (of current nations; no Nazi German or USSR flags, for instance). Of course, then you have to define what counts as a political statement and that could get messy and tedious.

Edit: just saw that cuda1179 just said basically the same thing, sorry I missed it somehow I definitely agree about this though.

I broadly agree with this. Like, I feel like very few normal, well-adjusted people have a wardrobe so stuffed with political memorabilia that they would struggle with a blanket ban on political stuff. But as a more general thing it shouldn't be too much of a stretch in a situation like this to say "I'm meeting strangers, maybe I should dress presentably and respectfully."
That said, I feel like it could probably pretty easy to draw a line between like, "Bernie Sanders seems like an okay guy" the T-Shirt vs like, a Rhodesian flag with a rifle under it. While it's all politics, there's a real difference between "political candidate I don't like" and "actual celebration of war crimes".

fidel wrote:
I believe it’s a mixture of the iron cross and the three arrows. 3 arrows was a symbol used by the socialist Democratic Party in Germany. If anyone has more information by all means let me know.

As you said, the three arrows is a Weimar-era socialist symbol, so I don't know why a nazi would want to wear it. In fact, the titular arrows stood for the political groups its users wanted to "attack," one of which was actually Nazism. I assume the arrows here are something else; If I had to guess, I'd say they're trying to play off the fasces symbol somehow. It doesn't make too much sense, but intelligence isn't exactly a nazi strong suit.

I'd also be willing to bet the symbol in the middle is a stylized rune. Nordic stuff is huge in alt-right/neo-nazi communities for fairly obvious reasons.

All I can say is that I'm equally offended by anyone who paints a 5 pointed red star/sickle and hammer on his IG. Or the 'red gobbo revolushon', because we all know where they've taken the thing from.

FWIW, the five arrows arranged like that is the symbol of the Spanish fascist 'Falange'. They usually have a two-arched bridge superimposed over the centre, though. The sun-cross is an ancient pagan symbol coopted by many fascist and white-supremacist groups. I've never seen the Falangist arrows with a superimposed sun-cross before but, combined with the interlinked swastikas, there's not much doubt about the guy's affiliation.

Er... unless he just works for AK Interactive, I suppose...

What a toolbox.

That's the weird thing about Neo-Nazis (and let's be clear, this guy is a Neo-Nazi, not a Nazi; the Nazi's were defeated/wiped out in the mid-40's - all that's left of them are ancient camp guards in the 90's somewhere) is that they wear kinda-sorta-Nazi symbols (like '88' and '13 Words', that weird Swastika-via-tentacles from the photo and gak like that), but obscure them in odd ways so they're not immediately apparent as Nazi symbols*. If they were as proud of their repugnant ideology as they claim to be, then they wouldn't be hiding it. And if they're hiding it, why are they hiding it? Can't be because they secretly know they're right. They're just all cowards.

*Yes, I know some Neo-Nazis are more overt than that, but the "Oblique Nazi Symbo" is a hallmark of those neo-spankers.

[EDIT]: Oh, uhh... right. The topic! Yes. I don't think the tournament itself can be responsible for what everyone does, and beyond actually breaking the law, can a TO really step in to stop someone because of their behaviours? I mean, had this tournament taken place in Germany where such symbols are actually outlawed, then yeah, but the tournament can't police everyone. It's not their role, not their responsibility and, I'd think, not actually their right either.

 CragHack wrote:
All I can say is that I'm equally offended by anyone who paints a 5 pointed red star/sickle and hammer on his IG. Or the 'red gobbo revolushon', because we all know where they've taken the thing from.

"Reel Gobbo Revolushon azzn't been tried yet, yer stinkin' grot!" - Da (Next) Red Gobbo

Obviously this is NOT the case here but its worth pointing out that the Nazis and other regimes like Communist Russia/USSR, China etc etc have all adopted and warped the meaning of various symbols over time. I feel really sorry for followers of the Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism as the swastika is a key ikon in their beliefs. Its also worth pointing out here that the earliest known instance of a swastika is from 10,000BC found carved on a piece of mammoth tusk/irony. Well before the concept of German, Europe or Politics even emerged.

During the 1930 & 40s and also more recently, Nazi and Neo Nazi groups have been adopting and using a lot of Norse and Germanic Pagan imagery. Which is highly annoying for me as somebody who is interested and studies history and love those beliefs and cultures from early Europe. But I would never get a tattoo of many Norse symbols because they have been adopted by bad actors and groups. In the same way I would not put them on my miniatures, however much I would like to as i dont want to be misunderstood or have an argument about it.

Those players should have been confronted by the TO and probably DQ'ed. Actual Nazis and/or Communists and extremists of any kind, racists, sexist, homophobic etc have no place in the wargaming community.

I have never come across this at any games or tournament I have been to but as a WM/H and Malifaux player, maybe we don't attract them? Or maybe i have been lucky. Often wondered how WW2 historical gamers deal with this issue?

Regardless, its not "Soy" or "cancel culture" to not want to play against actual Fascists. If your not a decent human, you shouldn't be allowed in. Regardless of the game system you are playing.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


[EDIT]: Oh, uhh... right. The topic! Yes. I don't think the tournament itself can be responsible for what everyone does, and beyond actually breaking the law, can a TO really step in to stop someone because of their behaviours? I mean, had this tournament taken place in Germany where such symbols are actually outlawed, then yeah, but the tournament can't police everyone. It's not their role, not their responsibility and, I'd think, not actually their right either.

Of course TOs can step in. All TOs should reserve the right to remove anyone at any time (mainly so you don't need some 1000-page document detailing all the things you're not supposed to do). Anyone displaying neo-Nazi symbols or symbols of other deeply offensive ideologies can feth off and it should be made clear they're not welcome at the tournament, in the store, or anywhere else. Obviously the TO needs to actually be aware of the problem in the first place but there shouldn't be any problem kicking someone out for being a neo-Nazi. If your first thought as a TO is "hmm, there's no policy in place to eject this person" you need to get your priorities straight.

He is wearing the Yoke and Arrows, which was the symbol of the Spanish Fascist movement, the Falange (Falange Española Tradicionalista y de las Juntas de Ofensiva Nacional Sindicalista), and is commonly used by Spanish Neo-Nazis and Neo-Fascists. The Yoke and Arrows was traditionally a monarchist symbol and adopted by the Falange in the 30s.

https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/e/es%7Dfal3.gif

It has nothing to do with the 'Three Arrows', which was used by German Social Democrats and Anti-Fascists (and was, during its original use, also an Anti-Communist symbol as well).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/76/Three_Arrows_election_poster_of_the_Social_Democratic_Party_of_Germany%2C_1932_-_Gegen_Papen%2C_Hitler%2C_Th%C3%A4lmann.png/220px-Three_Arrows_election_poster_of_the_Social_Democratic_Party_of_Germany%2C_1932_-_Gegen_Papen%2C_Hitler%2C_Th%C3%A4lmann.png

The other symbol looks like the sun-wheel, which has been used by a range of different Neo-Fascist movements.

I think not playing the person and informing the TO why is the right call, and I think asking for your money back and leaving the tournament is also a reasonable response.

To me this would extend toward any such violent ideology.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
[EDIT]: Oh, uhh... right. The topic! Yes. I don't think the tournament itself can be responsible for what everyone does, and beyond actually breaking the law, can a TO really step in to stop someone because of their behaviours? I mean, had this tournament taken place in Germany where such symbols are actually outlawed, then yeah, but the tournament can't police everyone. It's not their role, not their responsibility and, I'd think, not actually their right either.

Why shouldn't the host of an event not have the right to kick somebody out? If no dresscode policy was announced before the tournament and those symbols aren't illegal in your country, just hand the entry fee back to the guy and tell him to leave. What's the difference to other disruptive behaviour?

Also if you want an idea why a Spanish tournie organisers probably had no issues with this guy playing, Spain historically was run by Fascists into the 1970s (upon which they were kicked out) and there remains a nostalgia amongst some of the populace for Francoism and such. Plenty of neo-fascists are in the ranks of the Spanish army, and de-Francoisation has often met with protest.

Sunno wrote:
Obviously this is NOT the case here but its worth pointing out that the Nazis and other regimes like Communist Russia/USSR, China etc etc have all adopted and warped the meaning of various symbols over time. I feel really sorry for followers of the Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism as the swastika is a key ikon in their beliefs. Its also worth pointing out here that the earliest known instance of a swastika is from 10,000BC found carved on a piece of mammoth tusk/irony. Well before the concept of German, Europe or Politics even emerged.

During the 1930 & 40s and also more recently, Nazi and Neo Nazi groups have been adopting and using a lot of Norse and Germanic Pagan imagery. Which is highly annoying for me as somebody who is interested and studies history and love those beliefs and cultures from early Europe. But I would never get a tattoo of many Norse symbols because they have been adopted by bad actors and groups. In the same way I would not put them on my miniatures, however much I would like to as i dont want to be misunderstood or have an argument about it.

Those players should have been confronted by the TO and probably DQ'ed. Actual Nazis and/or Communists and extremists of any kind, racists, sexist, homophobic etc have no place in the wargaming community.

I have never come across this at any games or tournament I have been to but as a WM/H and Malifaux player, maybe we don't attract them? Or maybe i have been lucky. Often wondered how WW2 historical gamers deal with this issue?

Regardless, its not "Soy" or "cancel culture" to not want to play against actual Fascists. If your not a decent human, you shouldn't be allowed in. Regardless of the game system you are playing.

Someone on Reddit proports to have been at the tournament (this is also a problem for something I point out at the end) claimed that this guy was a priest in the Norse religion and made the "Austrian Painter" comment after repeatedly being harassed by attendees out of frustration over the ignorance of this persons religious beliefs and culture.

Since I:

A: Don't live in Spain and I didn't attend the tournament.
B: Do not speak German, Austrian, or Spanish.
C: Know nothing at all about legitimate practitioners of Norse religion or their religious symbols.

I feel like I can't comment anything about this because I'm largely ignorant of the entire situation, only able to use what other strangers on the net have said based on given trust. Maybe the dude is a card carrying Nazi, maybe he's just part of a religion most of us know nothing about and was the victim here rather than the perp. How are we supposed to know, the damned Nazi's bastardized a lot of religious symbology that far predated their ilk.

 Togusa wrote:

Sunno wrote:
Obviously this is NOT the case here but its worth pointing out that the Nazis and other regimes like Communist Russia/USSR, China etc etc have all adopted and warped the meaning of various symbols over time. I feel really sorry for followers of the Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism as the swastika is a key ikon in their beliefs. Its also worth pointing out here that the earliest known instance of a swastika is from 10,000BC found carved on a piece of mammoth tusk/irony. Well before the concept of German, Europe or Politics even emerged.

During the 1930 & 40s and also more recently, Nazi and Neo Nazi groups have been adopting and using a lot of Norse and Germanic Pagan imagery. Which is highly annoying for me as somebody who is interested and studies history and love those beliefs and cultures from early Europe. But I would never get a tattoo of many Norse symbols because they have been adopted by bad actors and groups. In the same way I would not put them on my miniatures, however much I would like to as i dont want to be misunderstood or have an argument about it.

Those players should have been confronted by the TO and probably DQ'ed. Actual Nazis and/or Communists and extremists of any kind, racists, sexist, homophobic etc have no place in the wargaming community.

I have never come across this at any games or tournament I have been to but as a WM/H and Malifaux player, maybe we don't attract them? Or maybe i have been lucky. Often wondered how WW2 historical gamers deal with this issue?

Regardless, its not "Soy" or "cancel culture" to not want to play against actual Fascists. If your not a decent human, you shouldn't be allowed in. Regardless of the game system you are playing.

Someone on Reddit proports to have been at the tournament (this is also a problem for something I point out at the end) claimed that this guy was a priest in the Norse religion and made the "Austrian Painter" comment after repeatedly being harassed by attendees out of frustration over the ignorance of this persons religious beliefs and culture.

Since I:

A: Don't live in Spain and I didn't attend the tournament.
B: Do not speak German, Austrian, or Spanish.
C: Know nothing at all about legitimate practitioners of Norse religion or their religious symbols.

I feel like I can't comment anything about this because I'm largely ignorant of the entire situation, only able to use what other strangers on the net have said based on given trust. Maybe the dude is a card carrying Nazi, maybe he's just part of a religion most of us know nothing about and was the victim here rather than the perp. How are we supposed to know, the damned Nazi's bastardized a lot of religious symbology that far predated their ilk.

Because he has a specific Spanish fascist symbol.

 blood reaper wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Sunno wrote:
Obviously this is NOT the case here but its worth pointing out that the Nazis and other regimes like Communist Russia/USSR, China etc etc have all adopted and warped the meaning of various symbols over time. I feel really sorry for followers of the Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism as the swastika is a key ikon in their beliefs. Its also worth pointing out here that the earliest known instance of a swastika is from 10,000BC found carved on a piece of mammoth tusk/irony. Well before the concept of German, Europe or Politics even emerged.

During the 1930 & 40s and also more recently, Nazi and Neo Nazi groups have been adopting and using a lot of Norse and Germanic Pagan imagery. Which is highly annoying for me as somebody who is interested and studies history and love those beliefs and cultures from early Europe. But I would never get a tattoo of many Norse symbols because they have been adopted by bad actors and groups. In the same way I would not put them on my miniatures, however much I would like to as i dont want to be misunderstood or have an argument about it.

Those players should have been confronted by the TO and probably DQ'ed. Actual Nazis and/or Communists and extremists of any kind, racists, sexist, homophobic etc have no place in the wargaming community.

I have never come across this at any games or tournament I have been to but as a WM/H and Malifaux player, maybe we don't attract them? Or maybe i have been lucky. Often wondered how WW2 historical gamers deal with this issue?

Regardless, its not "Soy" or "cancel culture" to not want to play against actual Fascists. If your not a decent human, you shouldn't be allowed in. Regardless of the game system you are playing.

Someone on Reddit proports to have been at the tournament (this is also a problem for something I point out at the end) claimed that this guy was a priest in the Norse religion and made the "Austrian Painter" comment after repeatedly being harassed by attendees out of frustration over the ignorance of this persons religious beliefs and culture.

Since I:

A: Don't live in Spain and I didn't attend the tournament.
B: Do not speak German, Austrian, or Spanish.
C: Know nothing at all about legitimate practitioners of Norse religion or their religious symbols.

I feel like I can't comment anything about this because I'm largely ignorant of the entire situation, only able to use what other strangers on the net have said based on given trust. Maybe the dude is a card carrying Nazi, maybe he's just part of a religion most of us know nothing about and was the victim here rather than the perp. How are we supposed to know, the damned Nazi's bastardized a lot of religious symbology that far predated their ilk.

Because he has a specific Spanish fascist symbol.

What's it called? I'd like to do some research on it to learn.

I know that GW have official guidelines about this exact sort of thing - no "real world" uniforms or symbols, either on your minis or your attendees. This is written into their event packs and community guidelines.

However, at unofficial GW events it is up to the event organisers and I'm guessing in this case there were no such guidelines.

I don't know what the law is in Spain, but certainly if that event had happened in UK the offended players would have actually been within their rights to call the police, who would have insisted the player remove the offending clothing and leave the event.

But this widens up a bigger issue for GW.

This wasn't a GW event, but it is apparently one of the biggest Warhammer events in Spain and if it gets media attention you can guarantee most readers/listeners/viewers won't know that it's nothing to do with GW.

This is why GW updated its community guidelines but I think it may have to go further.

Magic the Gathering events have official marshals and I think if events are selling tickets using the Warhammer brand, which they must have done to identify to players it's a 40K tournament, then GW needs to insist on setting minimum acceptable standards.

"In a racist society, it is not enough to be non-racist, we must be antiracist" Quote: Angela Davis

And that should also include all the homophobes, transphobes, misogynists etc that have crept into the hobby too.

There should be a set of strict guidelines issued to all players and if a player doesn't follow them it shouldn't be their opponents that are penalised.

 Togusa wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Sunno wrote:
Obviously this is NOT the case here but its worth pointing out that the Nazis and other regimes like Communist Russia/USSR, China etc etc have all adopted and warped the meaning of various symbols over time. I feel really sorry for followers of the Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism as the swastika is a key ikon in their beliefs. Its also worth pointing out here that the earliest known instance of a swastika is from 10,000BC found carved on a piece of mammoth tusk/irony. Well before the concept of German, Europe or Politics even emerged.

During the 1930 & 40s and also more recently, Nazi and Neo Nazi groups have been adopting and using a lot of Norse and Germanic Pagan imagery. Which is highly annoying for me as somebody who is interested and studies history and love those beliefs and cultures from early Europe. But I would never get a tattoo of many Norse symbols because they have been adopted by bad actors and groups. In the same way I would not put them on my miniatures, however much I would like to as i dont want to be misunderstood or have an argument about it.

Those players should have been confronted by the TO and probably DQ'ed. Actual Nazis and/or Communists and extremists of any kind, racists, sexist, homophobic etc have no place in the wargaming community.

I have never come across this at any games or tournament I have been to but as a WM/H and Malifaux player, maybe we don't attract them? Or maybe i have been lucky. Often wondered how WW2 historical gamers deal with this issue?

Regardless, its not "Soy" or "cancel culture" to not want to play against actual Fascists. If your not a decent human, you shouldn't be allowed in. Regardless of the game system you are playing.

Someone on Reddit proports to have been at the tournament (this is also a problem for something I point out at the end) claimed that this guy was a priest in the Norse religion and made the "Austrian Painter" comment after repeatedly being harassed by attendees out of frustration over the ignorance of this persons religious beliefs and culture.

Since I:

A: Don't live in Spain and I didn't attend the tournament.
B: Do not speak German, Austrian, or Spanish.
C: Know nothing at all about legitimate practitioners of Norse religion or their religious symbols.

I feel like I can't comment anything about this because I'm largely ignorant of the entire situation, only able to use what other strangers on the net have said based on given trust. Maybe the dude is a card carrying Nazi, maybe he's just part of a religion most of us know nothing about and was the victim here rather than the perp. How are we supposed to know, the damned Nazi's bastardized a lot of religious symbology that far predated their ilk.

Because he has a specific Spanish fascist symbol.

What's it called? I'd like to do some research on it to learn.

It's called the Yoke and Arrows. It was the symbol of the Spanish Falange, Spain's Fascist movement and ruling party from 1939-1977. A red yoke and arrows on a black banner were the the 'colours' of the movement.

https://www.thepostil.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/joseantonio_derivera_.jpg

A portrait of the Falange's 'martyred' leader, José Antonio Primo de Rivera, in a typical Falange blue shirt and carrying the Falange standard.

 blood reaper wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Sunno wrote:
Obviously this is NOT the case here but its worth pointing out that the Nazis and other regimes like Communist Russia/USSR, China etc etc have all adopted and warped the meaning of various symbols over time. I feel really sorry for followers of the Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism as the swastika is a key ikon in their beliefs. Its also worth pointing out here that the earliest known instance of a swastika is from 10,000BC found carved on a piece of mammoth tusk/irony. Well before the concept of German, Europe or Politics even emerged.

During the 1930 & 40s and also more recently, Nazi and Neo Nazi groups have been adopting and using a lot of Norse and Germanic Pagan imagery. Which is highly annoying for me as somebody who is interested and studies history and love those beliefs and cultures from early Europe. But I would never get a tattoo of many Norse symbols because they have been adopted by bad actors and groups. In the same way I would not put them on my miniatures, however much I would like to as i dont want to be misunderstood or have an argument about it.

Those players should have been confronted by the TO and probably DQ'ed. Actual Nazis and/or Communists and extremists of any kind, racists, sexist, homophobic etc have no place in the wargaming community.

I have never come across this at any games or tournament I have been to but as a WM/H and Malifaux player, maybe we don't attract them? Or maybe i have been lucky. Often wondered how WW2 historical gamers deal with this issue?

Regardless, its not "Soy" or "cancel culture" to not want to play against actual Fascists. If your not a decent human, you shouldn't be allowed in. Regardless of the game system you are playing.

Someone on Reddit proports to have been at the tournament (this is also a problem for something I point out at the end) claimed that this guy was a priest in the Norse religion and made the "Austrian Painter" comment after repeatedly being harassed by attendees out of frustration over the ignorance of this persons religious beliefs and culture.

Since I:

A: Don't live in Spain and I didn't attend the tournament.
B: Do not speak German, Austrian, or Spanish.
C: Know nothing at all about legitimate practitioners of Norse religion or their religious symbols.

I feel like I can't comment anything about this because I'm largely ignorant of the entire situation, only able to use what other strangers on the net have said based on given trust. Maybe the dude is a card carrying Nazi, maybe he's just part of a religion most of us know nothing about and was the victim here rather than the perp. How are we supposed to know, the damned Nazi's bastardized a lot of religious symbology that far predated their ilk.

Because he has a specific Spanish fascist symbol.

What's it called? I'd like to do some research on it to learn.

It's called the Yoke and Arrows. It was the symbol of the Spanish Falange, Spain's Fascist movement and ruling party from 1939-1977. A red yoke and arrows on a black banner were the the 'colours' of the movement.

Spoiler:

A portrait of the Falange's 'martyred' leader, José Antonio Primo de Rivera, in a typical Falange blue shirt and carrying the Falange standard.

Thanks, It's been a few years since college and most of the classes I took were on Russia, not the whole of Europe so a lot of Italian/Spanish fascist stuff is completely alien to me. I've my suspicion that the reddit claim is just that, a claim or attempt to create doubt in the readers over this. If the Arrows symbol is exclusively tied to Spanish fascism then it clearly has nothing to do with the mans religious beliefs.

 blood reaper wrote:
He is wearing the Yoke and Arrows, which was the symbol of the Spanish Fascist movement, the Falange (Falange Española Tradicionalista y de las Juntas de Ofensiva Nacional Sindicalista), and is commonly used by Spanish Neo-Nazis and Neo-Fascists. The Yoke and Arrows was traditionally a monarchist symbol and adopted by the Falange in the 30s.

https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/e/es%7Dfal3.gif

It has nothing to do with the 'Three Arrows', which was used by German Social Democrats and Anti-Fascists (and was, during its original use, also an Anti-Communist symbol as well).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/76/Three_Arrows_election_poster_of_the_Social_Democratic_Party_of_Germany%2C_1932_-_Gegen_Papen%2C_Hitler%2C_Th%C3%A4lmann.png/220px-Three_Arrows_election_poster_of_the_Social_Democratic_Party_of_Germany%2C_1932_-_Gegen_Papen%2C_Hitler%2C_Th%C3%A4lmann.png

The other symbol looks like the sun-wheel, which has been used by a range of different Neo-Fascist movements.

Ah super thank you! This is why I ask, because I love learning history/the usage of symbols. Now I have added this knowledge to the repertoire of other things !

Someone brought up another good point too: while it might not be illegal in Spain to don such symbols (very much like it is it illegal in America but illegal in Germany), it is definitely not a good optic for GW. This also comes as Warhammer is becoming wholly more popular then I have ever seen, with even WWE stars visiting Warhammer World (or famous actors posting their minis). While I understand GW having a rule banning those symbols for their official in house events, how could they prevent/ban (if even possible) those that are third party events? It should be noted this was not a small 20-30 man tournament - but rather a 700 person tournament that garnered world attention.

In my opinion - all GW can really do is put out a letter condemning such actions - as I do not think they can strip “titles” like a sports federation can.

 Togusa wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Sunno wrote:
Obviously this is NOT the case here but its worth pointing out that the Nazis and other regimes like Communist Russia/USSR, China etc etc have all adopted and warped the meaning of various symbols over time. I feel really sorry for followers of the Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism as the swastika is a key ikon in their beliefs. Its also worth pointing out here that the earliest known instance of a swastika is from 10,000BC found carved on a piece of mammoth tusk/irony. Well before the concept of German, Europe or Politics even emerged.

During the 1930 & 40s and also more recently, Nazi and Neo Nazi groups have been adopting and using a lot of Norse and Germanic Pagan imagery. Which is highly annoying for me as somebody who is interested and studies history and love those beliefs and cultures from early Europe. But I would never get a tattoo of many Norse symbols because they have been adopted by bad actors and groups. In the same way I would not put them on my miniatures, however much I would like to as i dont want to be misunderstood or have an argument about it.

Those players should have been confronted by the TO and probably DQ'ed. Actual Nazis and/or Communists and extremists of any kind, racists, sexist, homophobic etc have no place in the wargaming community.

I have never come across this at any games or tournament I have been to but as a WM/H and Malifaux player, maybe we don't attract them? Or maybe i have been lucky. Often wondered how WW2 historical gamers deal with this issue?

Regardless, its not "Soy" or "cancel culture" to not want to play against actual Fascists. If your not a decent human, you shouldn't be allowed in. Regardless of the game system you are playing.

Someone on Reddit proports to have been at the tournament (this is also a problem for something I point out at the end) claimed that this guy was a priest in the Norse religion and made the "Austrian Painter" comment after repeatedly being harassed by attendees out of frustration over the ignorance of this persons religious beliefs and culture.

Since I:

A: Don't live in Spain and I didn't attend the tournament.
B: Do not speak German, Austrian, or Spanish.
C: Know nothing at all about legitimate practitioners of Norse religion or their religious symbols.

I feel like I can't comment anything about this because I'm largely ignorant of the entire situation, only able to use what other strangers on the net have said based on given trust. Maybe the dude is a card carrying Nazi, maybe he's just part of a religion most of us know nothing about and was the victim here rather than the perp. How are we supposed to know, the damned Nazi's bastardized a lot of religious symbology that far predated their ilk.

Because he has a specific Spanish fascist symbol.

What's it called? I'd like to do some research on it to learn.

It's called the Yoke and Arrows. It was the symbol of the Spanish Falange, Spain's Fascist movement and ruling party from 1939-1977. A red yoke and arrows on a black banner were the the 'colours' of the movement.

https://www.thepostil.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/joseantonio_derivera_.jpg

A portrait of the Falange's 'martyred' leader, José Antonio Primo de Rivera, in a typical Falange blue shirt and carrying the Falange standard.

Thanks, It's been a few years since college and most of the classes I took were on Russia, not the whole of Europe so a lot of Italian/Spanish fascist stuff is completely alien to me. I've my suspicion that the reddit claim is just that, a claim or attempt to create doubt in the readers over this. If the Arrows symbol is exclusively tied to Spanish fascism then it clearly has nothing to do with the mans religious beliefs.

I should also note that plenty of Norse and Pagan types are also Neo Nazis. There's a number of very good books on the subject, but groups in the US like the Asatru Folk Assembly are Volkish White Supremacists. Nordicism became popular in the movement during the 1970s.

 blood reaper wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Sunno wrote:
Obviously this is NOT the case here but its worth pointing out that the Nazis and other regimes like Communist Russia/USSR, China etc etc have all adopted and warped the meaning of various symbols over time. I feel really sorry for followers of the Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism as the swastika is a key ikon in their beliefs. Its also worth pointing out here that the earliest known instance of a swastika is from 10,000BC found carved on a piece of mammoth tusk/irony. Well before the concept of German, Europe or Politics even emerged.

During the 1930 & 40s and also more recently, Nazi and Neo Nazi groups have been adopting and using a lot of Norse and Germanic Pagan imagery. Which is highly annoying for me as somebody who is interested and studies history and love those beliefs and cultures from early Europe. But I would never get a tattoo of many Norse symbols because they have been adopted by bad actors and groups. In the same way I would not put them on my miniatures, however much I would like to as i dont want to be misunderstood or have an argument about it.

Those players should have been confronted by the TO and probably DQ'ed. Actual Nazis and/or Communists and extremists of any kind, racists, sexist, homophobic etc have no place in the wargaming community.

I have never come across this at any games or tournament I have been to but as a WM/H and Malifaux player, maybe we don't attract them? Or maybe i have been lucky. Often wondered how WW2 historical gamers deal with this issue?

Regardless, its not "Soy" or "cancel culture" to not want to play against actual Fascists. If your not a decent human, you shouldn't be allowed in. Regardless of the game system you are playing.

Someone on Reddit proports to have been at the tournament (this is also a problem for something I point out at the end) claimed that this guy was a priest in the Norse religion and made the "Austrian Painter" comment after repeatedly being harassed by attendees out of frustration over the ignorance of this persons religious beliefs and culture.

Since I:

A: Don't live in Spain and I didn't attend the tournament.
B: Do not speak German, Austrian, or Spanish.
C: Know nothing at all about legitimate practitioners of Norse religion or their religious symbols.

I feel like I can't comment anything about this because I'm largely ignorant of the entire situation, only able to use what other strangers on the net have said based on given trust. Maybe the dude is a card carrying Nazi, maybe he's just part of a religion most of us know nothing about and was the victim here rather than the perp. How are we supposed to know, the damned Nazi's bastardized a lot of religious symbology that far predated their ilk.

Because he has a specific Spanish fascist symbol.

What's it called? I'd like to do some research on it to learn.

It's called the Yoke and Arrows. It was the symbol of the Spanish Falange, Spain's Fascist movement and ruling party from 1939-1977. A red yoke and arrows on a black banner were the the 'colours' of the movement.

Spoiler:

A portrait of the Falange's 'martyred' leader, José Antonio Primo de Rivera, in a typical Falange blue shirt and carrying the Falange standard.

Thanks, It's been a few years since college and most of the classes I took were on Russia, not the whole of Europe so a lot of Italian/Spanish fascist stuff is completely alien to me. I've my suspicion that the reddit claim is just that, a claim or attempt to create doubt in the readers over this. If the Arrows symbol is exclusively tied to Spanish fascism then it clearly has nothing to do with the mans religious beliefs.

I should also note that plenty of Norse and Pagan types are also Neo Nazis. There's a number of very good books on the subject, but groups in the US like the Asatru Folk Assembly are Volkish White Supremacists. Nordicism became popular in the movement during the 1970s.

I'm sure you've seen the pic of the guy, do you know what the other two symbols on his shirt were, overlaid on the Yoke and Arrows is some type of X or two crossed lines in a white circle which my google-fu is failing to find (Probably not the right terms for it) and the swastika pattern is really weird because it's something I've never seen.

The symbol overlaid the Yoke and Arrows appears to be a sun wheel.

https://reportingradicalism.org/images/featured/115/m_115_osnovne-hrafichne-zobrazhennia-symvolu.jpg

This has been used by numerous White Supremacists over the years. For example, the 'British Movement' and the National Socialist Movement, small Neo-Nazi groups in the UK, used it as their symbol.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-OtXvB8auAao/UPb2cIoStfI/AAAAAAAAAAs/0CCbk7OeY50/s1600/Trafalgar+Square++1962+pic+1.tiff

It might also be a Thule style sun wheel.

https://www.thegreatcoursesdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Secret-Societies_The-Role-of-Secret-Societies-in-the-Rise-of-Hitler_QBS_thumbnail.png

I have no idea about the weird Swastika pattern, but it's not dissimilar to some imagery used by Russian Neo-Fascist and Neo-Nazi movements.

Don't the KKK use that cross thing as well?

(I'm not about to look it up myself 'cause, well, y'know, 'the algorithm' might take notice)