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Semper, don't waster your time. He literally moved the goal post from "trukk boyz are OP" to "people aren't not playing them, so they must be good".

He literally has no argument besides "bUT thEy ARe iN ToP liSTs!!!111" without even understanding why they are there.

Would boyz be fixed if they had a 5+ save instead of 6+?

 JawRippa wrote:
Would boyz be fixed if they had a 5+ save instead of 6+?

Probably not. The issue is more related to boyz struggling to kill even troops like guardsmen or necrons than surviving. 5+ is ignored by half the game anyways.

 Jidmah wrote:

 JawRippa wrote:
Would boyz be fixed if they had a 5+ save instead of 6+?

Probably not. The issue is more related to boyz struggling to kill even troops like guardsmen or necrons than surviving. 5+ is ignored by half the game anyways.

Oddly I don't think killing power has been directly an issue so far, my understand of the issues from most to least problematic were:

Morale
Delivery
Redundancy due to other units
Cost
Then output

It's kind of all of the above.

Their "niche" used to be having 20-30 models and thus taking some effort to remove in addition to strength in numbers. Morale, modern engagement range rules and the ineffectiveness of rank&file guns like shootas killed that niche.

Without that niche, all other orks either have better delivery mechanisms (bikers, storm boyz, kommadoz) or are more killy (burna boyz, lootas, nobz, beastsnaggas).

Cost aren't the issue in my opinion, as I've lined out above.

 JawRippa wrote:
Would boyz be fixed if they had a 5+ save instead of 6+?

Considering the AP inflation on the most common normal gun and unit... it in essence would give you a SV 6+ back.
If you gave orks an 4+ instead, yeah that would start to matter significantly especially against marines being the most common AP slinging enemy right now.

Which would still leave moral and explosive numbers counter to the ork boy big mob.

I preferred them when they were T4 but immune to morale.

And also a bit cheaper, because i do a lot of 1000pts games and it was really fun to field almost a hundred of them in that format when they were still 6ppm. Back then it was a real threat because your opponent was like "i'll never have enough ammos for that", but now...

Using the WayBack Machine, in 5th Boyz could take multiple big shootas and rokkits. A unit of 10 could take 3, plus 1 for the nob. Prior to that, the loadout varied by clan. So without changing the cost, boyz mobs could be made much more useful.

8th boyz (all special rules) at 6 points with ap 1 choppas would be where it’s at. Assuming 5++ kff anyways.

Goreshrek wrote:
Using the WayBack Machine, in 5th Boyz could take multiple big shootas and rokkits. A unit of 10 could take 3, plus 1 for the nob. Prior to that, the loadout varied by clan. So without changing the cost, boyz mobs could be made much more useful.

That might have been an earlier edition, this is from 4th edition's codex:

>>That might have been an earlier edition, this is from 4th edition's codex:

D@mn I am old.

 JawRippa wrote:
Would boyz be fixed if they had a 5+ save instead of 6+?

Honestly? No. As an example of why not, lets take a look at the wonderful new Tau codex. A pulse rifle now is Ranged 36 (Doesn't have to move turn 1 pretty much ever) S5 (wounds orkz on 4s) and -1AP meaning atm No armor save, but if Orkz got bumped to 5+, they would go back to their 6+ save. Whats worse, on turns 1-3 if they target the closest unit, it goes to AP-2 and they get to re-roll wound rolls of 1. So a unit of 10 Firewarriors, in Double tap range puts out (unbuffed) 20 shots, 10 hits, 5.8 wounds and even with 5+ armor, 5.8 dead Boyz. Assuming they don't get a points bump, thats 90pts of Firewarrior killing 52.5pts of Orkz in a single turn of shooting. if they start at max range and only get 1 shot per gun instead of 2 its 26.25pts a turn 1 which means by turn 3 they will have completely made their value back unsupported/unbuffed. But don't worry, if by some miracle the orkz survive turn 2, on turn 3 the Tau get the previously mentioned benefit AND score double hits on a 6 if within 12' range (which if they aren't within that range its already GG). Lethality in the game is going up up and up, a 5+ save would give the boyz a bit more durability but not nearly as much as you would expect. Hell, intercessors start the game with -1AP on their weapons, and on tac turns it becomes -2AP

 Jidmah wrote:

Probably not. The issue is more related to boyz struggling to kill even troops like guardsmen or necrons than surviving. 5+ is ignored by half the game anyways.

Boyz definitely are more deadly then in previous editions on a per model basis, but yeah, you are correct in general. Per model a single boy is now 3 attacks base with -1AP, in 8th a choppa boy was 3 attacks base with no AP, so right off the bat the new models seem better. pt comparison, in 9th, 99pts of boyz is 11 models, in 8th 98pts of boyz was 14. So lets compare.

11 boyz currently get 33 attacks, 22 hits, 11 wounds and against Marines 5.5dmg. The 8th edition boyz got 42 attacks, 28 hits, 14 wounds and 4.6dmg. So new boyz win by 0.9dmg per 98(ish) points. Here is the kicker though, when you upgrade that to double, 22 Boyz are currently 198pts and get 66 attacks, 44 hits, 22 wounds and 11dmg, the 8th edition boyz though...they get 112 attacks, 75(ish) hits and 12.4dmg vs a Marine. Why the increase? Because when 8th edition boyz were over 20 models they got +1 attack each, boyz no longer get this benefit. Not to mention, in 9th, you can't fit as many boyz into CC thanks to the increase in base size and the reduction of engagement range. So overall boyz are slightly less damaging then they used to be. To make up for that, I think boyz should get probably another attack, or buff their WS to hit on 2s...which sadly would make most buffs we do currently get from buffing characters...useless (+1 to hit).

And if you think giving boyz +1 attack would make them broken, i'll point out that in 7th edition, a unit of 10 boyz on the charge did 40 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 3.3 dead Marines. That used to be 60pts of Orkz killing just shy of 50pts of Marines in a turn, or a return on investment of 83.3% Today, those same 10 boyz do 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 5dmg or 2.5 dead Marines, which is now 90pts of Ork killing 50ish points of Marine which is a return on investment of 55.5% Buffing boyz to 3 attacks base (+1 for choppas) would mean 40 attacks, 26.6 hits, 13.3 wounds and 6.6 dmg or 90pts of Ork killing 66ish points of Marine. A return on investment of 73.3%, still not as good as 7th edition, but a hell of a lot better than it currently is.

Dudeface wrote:

Oddly I don't think killing power has been directly an issue so far, my understand of the issues from most to least problematic were:

Morale
Delivery
Redundancy due to other units
Cost
Then output

As I showed above, its definitely a part of the problem. Boyz are not as deadly vs their most likely opponent as they used to be. Morale, Delivery and cost just exacerbate this problem. Redundancy isn't as much of a problem as you would think because the ork army generally relies on redundancy to get the job done. Why attack with 1 mob when you can attack with 3?

 Jidmah wrote:
It's kind of all of the above.
Their "niche" used to be having 20-30 models and thus taking some effort to remove in addition to strength in numbers. Morale, modern engagement range rules and the ineffectiveness of rank&file guns like shootas killed that niche.
Without that niche, all other orks either have better delivery mechanisms (bikers, storm boyz, kommadoz) or are more killy (burna boyz, lootas, nobz, beastsnaggas).
Cost aren't the issue in my opinion, as I've lined out above.

And jidmah and I completely agree here, especially about the shoota. Choppa boyz are the closest troop choice we have to being almost worth taking. Shoota boyz.....holy crap are they useless. In 7th a unit of 10 shoota boys at 18' range would get 20 shots, 6.6 hits, 3.3 wounds and 1.1 dead Marines, those same shoota boyz now cost 50% more and average 50% as many dead Marines, in other words they now get 20 shots, 6.6 hits, 3.3 wounds and 0.55 dead Marines. Thats a return on investment of 27.5% going to 12.2%. To kill a single Space Marine now requires 18 boyz, and boyz now cost 9ppm meaning its 162pts of Boyz to kill 1 Marine with shootas. That just isnt' worth doing. You could literally DOUBLE shootas to become Dakka 6(4) and it would just reduce the cost to 81pts to kill 20pts of Marine, still not worth it honestly. And realistically, who wants to roll that many dice just to kill a single Marine?

Goreshrek wrote:
Using the WayBack Machine, in 5th Boyz could take multiple big shootas and rokkits. A unit of 10 could take 3, plus 1 for the nob. Prior to that, the loadout varied by clan. So without changing the cost, boyz mobs could be made much more useful.

Sadly even if you could take 3 special weapons per 10 boyz you still wouldn't fix boyz. A Big shoota is massively overpriced at 5pts, if you took 3 of them you would up a boyz mob from 90pts to 105, those 3 big shoota would put out Dakka 5(3), turn 1 its likely 9 shots, 3 hits, 2 wounds and 0.66dmg to a Marine. Thats 42pts of Ork doing a grand total of about 6.6pts of dmg to a Marine. If you get within half range you go to 15 shots, 5 hits 3.2 wounds and 1.06dmg to a Marine, so 42pts of Ork doing about 10pts of dmg to a Marine.

A rokkit on the other hand is 10pts, if you put 3 in a mob of boyz and didn't move you get 6 shots, 2 hits, 1.6 wounds and about 3.2dmg to a Marine. That would be 57pts of Boyz killing 32pts of Marine, not a bad return on investment, sadly the rest of the boyz wouldn't pick up the slack, so the other 63pts of boyz would only manage to kill about 0.38 Marines or about 7.7pts of dmg. So the 10 boyz would then cost 120pts and kill about 40pts of Marine so long as they didn't move, if they did move you can cut the rokkit dmg in half.

To put it more bluntly, in 8th edition I almost NEVER equipped special weapons on my boyz mobz because GW has never figured out how to balance their weapons costs correctly. The only time I took a special weapon on a boyz mob was if I had a couple points left over and literally no other upgrades available.

Don’t know about the maths, but my take would be to have GW hire some people who can do the job, rather than throwing +1 T at Orks and shouting ‘look, new models’.

Orks are a really simple faction. The bigger they are, the better they get. They shoot lots, but rely on this volume for effect. Every Ork is a hooligan at heart. It beggars belief that they could cock this up.

Rules wise, other factions are not going to be toned down, so I’d say to ‘make Boyz great’ they need a points increase. I know this is unlikely to happen, but the ‘game standard’ Marine seems about twice as effective as in previous editions (subjective). Fewer enemy models on the table means less Morale problems for Orks.

Oh, and scrap the Ld characteristic, and substitute ‘Size’. Make the Shooting ‘To Hit’ roll BS vs Sz so smaller models are harder to hit, and larger easier. You know it makes sense :-)

The +1T worked well for all units but boyz though, and it was a good changed.
And no, they don't need a point increase to be made great again.

SemperMortis wrote:


To put it more bluntly, in 8th edition I almost NEVER equipped special weapons on my boyz mobz because GW has never figured out how to balance their weapons costs correctly. The only time I took a special weapon on a boyz mob was if I had a couple points left over and literally no other upgrades available.

To be fair in 3rd edition maxing out special weapons on boyz squads was the norm. Rokkit launchas were only 5 points so 10-12 man squads of shoota boyz with 3 rokkits and possibly a 4th on the nob were good. Boyz could have burnas which counted as power weapons in combat, an excellent option for choppa guys. Big shootas were, as always, the worst option available and also the most expensive one .

Only problem was that boyz kit didn't come with any special weapons so you needed to buy tons of blisters just to properly equip your troops. Even the nobz had to be bought separately .

Since the 4th edition codex the nob has been the only upgrade worth taking for boyz. I could still see a (little) value on 10 man squads of boyz with three 5ppm rokkits though and good value on 10 man squads of boyz with three cheap AP-3 weapons.

Moriarty wrote:
Don’t know about the maths, but my take would be to have GW hire some people who can do the job, rather than throwing +1 T at Orks and shouting ‘look, new models’.

Orks are a really simple faction. The bigger they are, the better they get. They shoot lots, but rely on this volume for effect. Every Ork is a hooligan at heart. It beggars belief that they could cock this up.

Rules wise, other factions are not going to be toned down, so I’d say to ‘make Boyz great’ they need a points increase. I know this is unlikely to happen, but the ‘game standard’ Marine seems about twice as effective as in previous editions (subjective). Fewer enemy models on the table means less Morale problems for Orks.

Oh, and scrap the Ld characteristic, and substitute ‘Size’. Make the Shooting ‘To Hit’ roll BS vs Sz so smaller models are harder to hit, and larger easier. You know it makes sense :-)

I mentioned this somewhere else, but I was talking about making Orkz T5 about a year ago Looks like they listened. Sadly the problem isn't that GW gave them +1 T and said "good enough" and "Look, new models" The problem is that they gave Orkz +1 T and then immediately gave into the massive outcry from other armies saying orkz would be broken blah blah blah and to appease the mob they nerfed basically everything that made ork boyz competitive in 8th. No more reliable/useful buffs, no more reliable deep strike, no more reliable delivery methods, no more stratagem support and most importantly, no more morale. And on top of that they changed the games fundamental rules to punish horde units/armies. New Blast rules, new coherency rules and new Morale rules gutted the Ork boyz mob to basically only function in MSU style and only then as a tax at best. At this point in time with the Ork codex there isn't a reason to bring boyz, but even if they incentivized you to take them, you would still only take MSU and give them 0 support because they just don't function like they are supposed to.

I think a maybe fun way to fix boyz is first just do away with morale on em, then have each klan massively buff boyz in some way, kommandos are good even though they’re boyz, but that’s cause they have a ton of buffs. What if all evil sunz boyz had 8” move and had like a +3 to charge?, those might be better. Maybe bad moonz boyz all get +2 shots on their weapons, and Freebootas have super obsec, where they can take objectives away from other things with obsec.

I think having morale in a board game is very important. Most battles irl are won because of moral issues that can then be exploited by the winning side to push their advantage. Almost never because of a complete annihilations after a battle to the death.

But 40k has a very simplistic and poorly implemented moral system. If you obliterate 2/3 of an army but kill only whole units, nobody's gonna bat an eye, but if you kill 5 boyz in a 30 man blob you might loose a dozen more that fled for their life. This is kind of ridiculous.

 Mr Raptor wrote:
I think having morale in a board game is very important. Most battles irl are won because of moral issues that can then be exploited by the winning side to push their advantage. Almost never because of a complete annihilations after a battle to the death.

But 40k has a very simplistic and poorly implemented moral system. If you obliterate 2/3 of an army but kill only whole units, nobody's gonna bat an eye, but if you kill 5 boyz in a 30 man blob you might loose a dozen more that fled for their life. This is kind of ridiculous.

Honestly, in any other game yes. In 40k things have just gotten to the point that no one except guard, genestealers, and tau should worry about morale, and even then at that point they’d have ways to get around it.

Agree, 40k is everything but realistic combat. Morale just has no place in a game where insane heroism is the norm for everyone.

Honestly, I feel like leadership would be best shown through strats, space marines get a billion seperate 1cp ones that mesh together cause of leadership and tactics, orks just get big, brutally simple 3-4 cp ones that just make things hit harder.

 Jidmah wrote:
Agree, 40k is everything but realistic combat. Morale just has no place in a game where insane heroism is the norm for everyone.

Gotta be honest Jid, I agree. I really like the idea of morale. I would really like to see it implemented in the game....but as it currently stands it just isn't implemented fairly at all.

Similarly I like the concept of -1 to hit...Its just not implemented fairly.

5 Autocannon Havocs are 130pts, they get 8 shots for 5.3 hits. When they get hit with -1 to hit this drops to....4 Thats a drop of 25%
8 Lootas (including 1 required spanna) are 136pts they get 14-21 shots and 4.6 to 7 hits. When they get hit with -1 to hit this drops to 2.3 and 3.5 That is a drop of 50%

The game just needs to work on implementing rules it wants to use more equally across the different armies. Trust me I know how hard that is with umpteen different armies in the game, not to mention sub factions and kultures/regiments etc.

 Blackie wrote:


Since the 4th edition codex the nob has been the only upgrade worth taking for boyz.

It's worth noting that, in 6th and 7th edition (while using the 4th ed codex), you actually wanted to take one special weapon per squad of boyz. That was because you could give it to the Nob, and then the "Precision Shots" mechanic meant that any time your nob rolled a 6 to hit you got to assign that hit to a specific model in the target unit. So while nobz rarely hit, 50% of the time they hit you could absolutely merc one of the valuable guys in whatever squad you were shooting at.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Blackie wrote:


Since the 4th edition codex the nob has been the only upgrade worth taking for boyz.

It's worth noting that, in 6th and 7th edition (while using the 4th ed codex), you actually wanted to take one special weapon per squad of boyz. That was because you could give it to the Nob, and then the "Precision Shots" mechanic meant that any time your nob rolled a 6 to hit you got to assign that hit to a specific model in the target unit. So while nobz rarely hit, 50% of the time they hit you could absolutely merc one of the valuable guys in whatever squad you were shooting at.

That was only a thing in 6th, and you needed to advance almost every turn which back then meant no shooting whatsoever. Even if you did all that, you still needed to wound the enemy and have them fail their save. If the special model was a character they still could also just LoS! the wound. It was generally considered to be not worth the points, especially not in the edition of FMC, re-rollable 2++ deathstars and ADLs everywhere.

And technically speaking, that would still be a nob upgrade.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Blackie wrote:


Since the 4th edition codex the nob has been the only upgrade worth taking for boyz.

It's worth noting that, in 6th and 7th edition (while using the 4th ed codex), you actually wanted to take one special weapon per squad of boyz. That was because you could give it to the Nob, and then the "Precision Shots" mechanic meant that any time your nob rolled a 6 to hit you got to assign that hit to a specific model in the target unit. So while nobz rarely hit, 50% of the time they hit you could absolutely merc one of the valuable guys in whatever squad you were shooting at.

Pretty much what Jidmah said. Nobz were the only worthwhile "upgrade" for boyz. Realistically the big shoota has been trash tier for most of its existence while Rokkitz were situational in 7th, IE if you had a few pts left over, take as many rokkitz as you could since they were the go to Marine Killer. Mind you, in the earlier editions you also upgraded that Nob to have a PK since it was in some cases the only way to make Boyz capable of damaging Vehicles

 Jidmah wrote:
The +1T worked well for all units but boyz though, and it was a good changed.
And no, they don't need a point increase to be made great again.

honestly it would have even worked for boyz i think if they just left mob rule in place boyz would be in a ok place. I have played a few games with consenting players just seeing how it would be with the old mob rule where leadership = squad size and my ork horde list had about a 50-50 win to loss rate (3/6 games) they were pretty close games in both cases. we also kept counts of how many boyz would have been gone using current morale and the orks would probably have lost 6/6 games. Not enough games or controlled factors for games to get valid data, but anecdotally i can say just giving it back made T5 boys seem to be a decent unit worth taking.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
The +1T worked well for all units but boyz though, and it was a good changed.
And no, they don't need a point increase to be made great again.

honestly it would have even worked for boyz i think if they just left mob rule in place boyz would be in a ok place. I have played a few games with consenting players just seeing how it would be with the old mob rule where leadership = squad size and my ork horde list had about a 50-50 win to loss rate (3/6 games) they were pretty close games in both cases. we also kept counts of how many boyz would have been gone using current morale and the orks would probably have lost 6/6 games. Not enough games or controlled factors for games to get valid data, but anecdotally i can say just giving it back made T5 boys seem to be a decent unit worth taking.

It really depends on what type of list your are playing against, and I don't mean matchup wise i mean competitiveness of the list itself. Biggest problem with boyz in 8th was dmg output wasn't nearly high enough. 30 boyz had 120 attacks 80 hits, 40 wounds and 13.3dmg vs a Marine unit. So 210pts of Orkz killed 6.6 Intercessors or 133ish points. 210pts of boyz is now 23.3, thats 70 attacks, 46.6 hits, 23.3 wounds and 11.6dmg vs Marines so 5.83 dead Marines or 116ish points of dead Intercessors. And of course that isn't even taking into account the new larger base size, the smaller close combat engagement range etc. So why did boyz spam work in 8th? Because of buffs. Specifically 5++ KFF and 6+ FNP from a painboy who was also healing Ghaz for D3 wounds a turn (medisquig). T4 Boyz with a 5++ and a 6+ FNP are MORE durable then T5 boyz.

T4 vs 100 bolter hits: 100 hits, 50 wounds 33.3 dmg after invuln and 27.7 after FNP. Total of 194pts of dead boyz
T5 vs 100 bolter hits: 100 hits, 33.3 wounds 27.7dmg after armor save (if they get one). Total of 250pts of dead boyz.

That Big Mek with KFF went up in price dramatically even though it got noticeably worse, the Painboy did as well. They lost all their strat support, specifically fight twice.

Morale is absolutely the biggest problem facing ork boyz right now, but lack of dmg output, durability and speed/delivery are close behind.

SemperMortis wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
The +1T worked well for all units but boyz though, and it was a good changed.
And no, they don't need a point increase to be made great again.

honestly it would have even worked for boyz i think if they just left mob rule in place boyz would be in a ok place. I have played a few games with consenting players just seeing how it would be with the old mob rule where leadership = squad size and my ork horde list had about a 50-50 win to loss rate (3/6 games) they were pretty close games in both cases. we also kept counts of how many boyz would have been gone using current morale and the orks would probably have lost 6/6 games. Not enough games or controlled factors for games to get valid data, but anecdotally i can say just giving it back made T5 boys seem to be a decent unit worth taking.

It really depends on what type of list your are playing against, and I don't mean matchup wise i mean competitiveness of the list itself. Biggest problem with boyz in 8th was dmg output wasn't nearly high enough. 30 boyz had 120 attacks 80 hits, 40 wounds and 13.3dmg vs a Marine unit. So 210pts of Orkz killed 6.6 Intercessors or 133ish points. 210pts of boyz is now 23.3, thats 70 attacks, 46.6 hits, 23.3 wounds and 11.6dmg vs Marines so 5.83 dead Marines or 116ish points of dead Intercessors. And of course that isn't even taking into account the new larger base size, the smaller close combat engagement range etc. So why did boyz spam work in 8th? Because of buffs. Specifically 5++ KFF and 6+ FNP from a painboy who was also healing Ghaz for D3 wounds a turn (medisquig). T4 Boyz with a 5++ and a 6+ FNP are MORE durable then T5 boyz.

T4 vs 100 bolter hits: 100 hits, 50 wounds 33.3 dmg after invuln and 27.7 after FNP. Total of 194pts of dead boyz
T5 vs 100 bolter hits: 100 hits, 33.3 wounds 27.7dmg after armor save (if they get one). Total of 250pts of dead boyz.

That Big Mek with KFF went up in price dramatically even though it got noticeably worse, the Painboy did as well. They lost all their strat support, specifically fight twice.

Morale is absolutely the biggest problem facing ork boyz right now, but lack of dmg output, durability and speed/delivery are close behind.

boyz with mob rule are admittedly not doing major damage, there are other things in the codex for that, but removing 120 boyz not running from morale and overpowering them on objectives just doesn't really work. with the current missions boyz with old mob rule score you points without running away while providing enough of a threat that the opponent has to think about hwo they will deal with them without throwing just anything at them.

 G00fySmiley wrote:


boyz with mob rule are admittedly not doing major damage, there are other things in the codex for that, but removing 120 boyz not running from morale and overpowering them on objectives just doesn't really work. with the current missions boyz with old mob rule score you points without running away while providing enough of a threat that the opponent has to think about hwo they will deal with them without throwing just anything at them.

Lets take morale out of the equation. 60 boyz right now costs you 540pts, In 8th I could take 60 boys (420pts) AND a big mek with KFF and a painboy for about the same price.

To kill a 8th edition boy with KFF and painboy with bolters takes the same amount then as it does now to kill a 9th edition Boy at T5. 5.4 bolter shots.

5.4 shots, 3.6 hits, 1.8 wounds, 1.2 after KFF and 1 after FNP.
5.4 shots, 3.6 hits, 1.2 wounds, 1 dead after 6+ armor.

60 boyz in 8th gave you 240 attacks, with larger engagement range meaning more could wing.
60 boyz in 9th is at most 180 attacks, with smaller engagement range meaning fewer can swing.

In 8th you could give boyz +1 on the charge via evil sunz and "Da Jump" them reliably with a weirdboy and have a great chance of a successful charge thanks to old "Ere We Go" rules which allowed you to re-roll either 1 or both dice for the charge.

In 9th you CANT give boyz +1 on the charge anymore, Da Jump became less reliable, you have at best around a 50% of a successful charge.

In 8th those boyz had a lot of strat support, including my favorites Green Tide and fight twice. Both/all of the good strats for boyz are gone.

There is just too much right now stacked up against boyz to make them reliable/competitive without a host of buffs being given to them.

Nope. Been playing Orks for 25 years. Im damn glad to have a play option that doesn't involve huge blobs of boys.
I still play them once in a while, but im very happy that Orks are Toys over Boys at the moment.
The huge boys lists were boring and stale.