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Slipspace wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Audustum wrote:

'Wokism' aside it just causes all kinda of issues because now every TO is expected to be some kind of political overseer. That's not a burden I'd want as a TO. The easiest and best move is probably just to ban all real world political symbols of any kind, hate based or not, violent or not, from attendee clothing. This will all get massively complicated very fast if you end up with someone wearing a controversial shirt at a streamed table anyway.

Slippery slope fallacy and "wokism" in one go. Brilliant. How do you operate in the real world without being able to distinguish the shades of grey from the clear black and white? Surely we can all at least start by agreeing that neo-Nazi or actual Nazi symbols should get you kicked out of a tournament? Even if the only real change that occurs as a result of this is making that obvious point very clear it would at least be a start.

Does anyone actually know what slippery slope is? Or wokism?

Slippery Slope:

asserting that a proposed, relatively small, first action will inevitably lead to a chain of related events resulting in a significant and negative event and, therefore, should not be permitted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

1. I'm not saying you shouldn't ban things ('not be permitted'), I'm saying you have to ban everything if you go that route.
2. I'm not saying the events are a 'chain', I am saying they are one and the same just with different window dressing (nazism as opposed to any other political topic).

I'd say you're wrong about them being one and the same thing, hence the slippery slope. You're equating an actual neo-Nazi with literally any other political movement, which is insane. There are nuances here we can deal with as functioning human beings without just throwing our hands up and declaring the whole thing impossible to deal with.

For example, I live in Scotland. I've encountered more than one gamer with a "Yes" slogan on their army case/dice box etc (that's the symbol of the movement for Scottish independence, for those not following Scottish politics). I don't see how that political stance is even remotely related to someone whose ideology calls for the genocide of millions of people. Will someone possibly complain if they see that in a livestream? Maybe. Is that grounds for banning a "Yes" slogan? I don't think so, on the basis that it's not a symbol of an actual hate group and it's entirely possible for something to be political, for you to disagree with those politics, and not have to ban it.

For clarity, neo-Nazis are not one of those things. They are a bona-fide hate group whose core ideology is centred around hatred. Your inability to tell the difference is equal parts bizarre, confusing and troubling.

You're actually missing the mark here I'm afraid. I think we can all agree that blatant displays of Nazi symbology has no place in a tournament, store etc. However, the term "nazi" is now being thrown about so easily by certain groups which I find abhorrent since of what true Nazism did to the world. The cries of people trying to attach white supremacy to certain conservative beliefs is alarming and ridiculous. People better be ready to stand their ground as a community vs that BS and show the same intolerance.
We'll see if common sense prevails.

There's the obvious symbols like the nazi swastika and some others.

However, had the shirt worn by the person that this Statement was directed to (spanish facist group) gone to a US tournament, who would recognize that it is a facist symbol? I certainly wouldn't, not before I had read the previous thread and educated myself on a bunch of new, foreign symbols. And I'd wager quite a few of the westerners in that thread also had no idea.

A TO either needs to know these symbols, or google search that gak when it's brought to their attention which is a whole 'nother can of worms.

"Is the yoke and arrows symbol facist?" And they can read up on that, and decide to remove that person.

Or someone comes up and complains that another attendee flashed a nazi dog whistle, because they made the OK hand-gesture. TO googles it and, surprise surprise, a bunch of articles claiming that the OK hand-gesture actually stands for White Power. It's not so clear now, because one person is claiming something and believes someone should be booted out.

I believe that's the issue Audustum is meaning.

Given someone literally "no true Nazi"ed the melon-fether at the Talavera tournament in the last thread, I don't think it's abhorrent at all.

Damn, I better hope I don't have any ulnar nerve pain at a tournament because the prescribed exercise might get me thrown out!!!
Lol

 bullyboy wrote:
Damn, I better hope I don't have any ulnar nerve pain at a tournament because the prescribed exercise might get me thrown out!!!
Lol

You're really concerned that you might be mistaken for a Nazi.

Absolute madness how the US and UK has let itself become overrun with Nazis that we are now at this point. What went wrong? Not enough nutrients in the drinking water, or just societies where hatred runs amok? I'm glad I live in a safe country where people tend to respect one another.

 Nurglitch wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Damn, I better hope I don't have any ulnar nerve pain at a tournament because the prescribed exercise might get me thrown out!!!
Lol

You're really concerned that you might be mistaken for a Nazi.

Obviously the "lol" missed your attention, but to those uncertain of the exercise in question, it is basically repeated OK signs brought towards the head and I prescribe it to patients quite frequently. Had no clue that OK sign was Nazi...hence my point.

 Nurglitch wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Damn, I better hope I don't have any ulnar nerve pain at a tournament because the prescribed exercise might get me thrown out!!!
Lol

You're really concerned that you might be mistaken for a Nazi.

Considering how something as basic as the OK sign is considered to be a Nazi symbol that does seem to be a common concern, yes.
Check out this bloody Nazi

I have never seen or eard about anyone calling someone nazi in real life that was not:
-Wearing some nazi or nazi-like symbols
-In a political rally of right or far right ideologies
-In a grammar class.

So I believe that is very easy to attend warhammer tournaments without fear of being called anything politically motivatet if you don't wear political symbols, whatever those may be.

 bullyboy wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Damn, I better hope I don't have any ulnar nerve pain at a tournament because the prescribed exercise might get me thrown out!!!
Lol

You're really concerned that you might be mistaken for a Nazi.

Obviously the "lol" missed your attention, but to those uncertain of the exercise in question, it is basically repeated OK signs brought towards the head and I prescribe it to patients quite frequently. Had no clue that OK sign was Nazi...hence my point.

Yes, it is a very real and serious problem that you might be ejected from a tournament for accidentally and unknowingly engaging in white power signals.

dream archipelago wrote:
Absolute madness how the US and UK has let itself become overrun with Nazis that we are now at this point. What went wrong? Not enough nutrients in the drinking water, or just societies where hatred runs amok? I'm glad I live in a safe country where people tend to respect one another.

what has the UK or US got to do with a Spanish Tournament i'm lost? & sweden...safe country PMSL its about as safe as a gun in the hands of Alec baldwin

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Damn, I better hope I don't have any ulnar nerve pain at a tournament because the prescribed exercise might get me thrown out!!!
Lol

You're really concerned that you might be mistaken for a Nazi.

Considering how something as basic as the OK sign is considered to be a Nazi symbol that does seem to be a common concern, yes.
Check out this bloody Nazi

Spoiler:

Since this seems to be a common concern...
No. That's not the context that's considered to be a white supremacist (not Nazi specific) symbol.

First time I've head of the ok thing. I just know that upside down it's some sort of rickroll style gotcha thing.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Nurglitch wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Damn, I better hope I don't have any ulnar nerve pain at a tournament because the prescribed exercise might get me thrown out!!!
Lol

You're really concerned that you might be mistaken for a Nazi.

Considering how something as basic as the OK sign is considered to be a Nazi symbol that does seem to be a common concern, yes.
Check out this bloody Nazi

Spoiler:

Since this seems to be a common concern...
No. That's not the context that's considered to be a white supremacist (not Nazi specific) symbol.

Well then what is the context? Because that's a really common hand sign that just means "ok".
If people lose their jobs over it, then I dare say it is a concern.
https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/sdge-worker-fired-over-alleged-racist-gesture-says-he-was-cracking-knuckles/2347414/

You could literally read the article you posted and know the answer to your question.

According to the Anti-Defamation League, the gesture -- made by forming a circle with the thumb and index finger, and extending and separating the other three fingers -- has been used in recent years by white supremacists to form the letters W and P, but has also long been used as a sign signifying "OK" or approval.

Therefore it shouldn't be assumed to be a white supremacy symbol unless there is other evidence to support those claims, according to the ADL.

Very, very concerning.

It's very cool how the suggestion that someone openly wearing a Fascist symbol (well known in that country) shouldn't be welcome somewhere has turned into a hysteria over hand signs or something.

It's really not that hard to go to a public event without running the risk of being mistaken for a nazi.

And as a TO:
When in doubt, offer the person in question to change clothes or hide the symbol.

When not in doubt, just reference your dress code and kick the person out.

The side topic was about expecting TO's to know these things and make judgements on it, which is a difficult situation.

The ok hand-gesture was used because it's recently been accused of being a white-power symbol.

You do know it's possible to hold the position that nazis and facists and commies shouldn't wear their symbols to tournaments and public places, and that TOs may be put in to difficulty situations due to the ambiguity of some symbols and a recent trend of wildly accusing people right?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
First time I've head of the ok thing. I just know that upside down it's some sort of rickroll style gotcha thing.

Before the last couple years, it was basically like.... make the ok hand sign somewhere below the waist, like on your leg or something, trick your friend into looking at it, bam you got 'em, punch them in the shoulder.

That was before, now a bunch of right-wing people in America gave it a new purpose.

Essentially, it's a dog whistle, a way to say something racist and have plausible deniability to say ohhhh I didn't knoooow!

The idea is that the thumb and forefinger form the round part of "p", the three last fingers form a "w", and then the rest of the "p", i dunno your arm or something. Tee-hee-hee, I'm saying white power, but if you tell the teacher I'll just say I was doing an ok hand sign for no reason!

I am 100% convinced if a group of Blue Shirts turned up to the tournament singing Cara al Sol, someone on DakkaDakka would find a way to defend them or start talking about the HECKIN' ANTIFA! who are apparently running rampant in tournies around the country.

Audustum wrote:

'Wokism' aside it just causes all kinda of issues because now every TO is expected to be some kind of political overseer. That's not a burden I'd want as a TO. The easiest and best move is probably just to ban all real world political symbols of any kind, hate based or not, violent or not, from attendee clothing. This will all get massively complicated very fast if you end up with someone wearing a controversial shirt at a streamed table anyway.

In one of the late Terry Pratchett books a vampire Dad teaches his family not to fear religious symbols by constantly surprising them with flash cards and convincing them they are just squiggles. Ultimately this is undone and now everything looks like a religious symbol, with cross, ankh's, etc. everywhere.

You simply can't do what you say, not least because some countries are very keen on making things political. If I had a t-shirt saying save the whales a certain group of people would say that is a political statement. Hell I am sure if I had had one saying 'stop the genocide in Rwanda' during the actual genocide a bunch would be keenly shouting I was a woke liberal *insert party here*. We could diverge into a lack of genuine policy differences and significantly different ideologies in the political space perhaps driving the seizing of very minor issues to hang identities around (I await with amusement the day the Yanks realise much of the rest of the world thinks both their major parties are right wing capitalist movements with different trimmings), but keeping it to this...

What is considered extreme varies from place to place and time to time. Currently after a big war and a lot of genocide we all decided Nazi's were bad. We were awkward around fascism, but after the last dictators fell we feel we can stand up to it now without looking sheepish. And it is local. Saying 'Black Lives Matter' in many places is seen as a statement of fact. In some place and especially America it seems to be the name of a political party which doesn't exist anywhere else as far as I know. If your t-shirt read 'Black Live Matter because All Lives Should Matter' would it still be political? Or just a fairly obvious statement? Would some American's T-Shirts saying 'Ban Slavery, it is really bad' be considered an unacceptable political slogan because it attacks the freedoms the Confederacy held dear? Or some Brits for that matter saying its an attack on the historic work done to raise so much money for the landed gentry of the Empire and is an unacceptable piece of revisionist history.

Sadly with the amount of nutcases around, the rejection of inconvenient science and the seizing onto of crazy stuff to get a feel of agency or sense in the world means you can never have a 'zero' slogan policy. Just be aware to what is considered unacceptable and feel your way from there as the TO. Start with Nazi's bad as 99% of people agree and go from there. Remember if you ban communist symbols you won't get streamed in China

Anyone else laugh when they had to define what satire is.

I could almost feel the frustration of the author thinking "by the Emperor I have to actually define this from the Webster's dictionary for the pedants."

 bullyboy wrote:

Obviously the "lol" missed your attention, but to those uncertain of the exercise in question, it is basically repeated OK signs brought towards the head and I prescribe it to patients quite frequently. Had no clue that OK sign was Nazi...hence my point.

I think that's an American thing? And that of course makes things even worse. Because a lot of group symbology is very local.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
First time I've head of the ok thing. I just know that upside down it's some sort of rickroll style gotcha thing.

I've heard & read it was a 4chan prank named Operation O-kkk and is now on a list & can get you fired..the lunacy of it all

 blood reaper wrote:
It's very cool how the suggestion that someone openly wearing a Fascist symbol (well known in that country) shouldn't be welcome somewhere has turned into a hysteria over hand signs or something.

The real victims were the overworked tournament organisers, after all.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Obviously the "lol" missed your attention, but to those uncertain of the exercise in question, it is basically repeated OK signs brought towards the head and I prescribe it to patients quite frequently. Had no clue that OK sign was Nazi...hence my point.

I think that's an American thing? And that of course makes things even worse. Because a lot of group symbology is very local.

Must be, it's definitely used in the originally intended way across Europe. It does illustrate rather well why we need to be wary not to conflate cultural phenomena in a globalized setting, such as this forum. What one may consider a harmless everyday gesture will be considered to be a nazi dog whistle for another.

 Kanluwen wrote:
You could literally read the article you posted and know the answer to your question.

According to the Anti-Defamation League, the gesture -- made by forming a circle with the thumb and index finger, and extending and separating the other three fingers -- has been used in recent years by white supremacists to form the letters W and P, but has also long been used as a sign signifying "OK" or approval.

Therefore it shouldn't be assumed to be a white supremacy symbol unless there is other evidence to support those claims, according to the ADL.

Except that doesn't really answer anything, as it doesn't specify what that evidence is. If you need more "evidence" for your symbol to work then it isn't really a symbol now is it? I doubt that real white supremacists actually use it for that reason, due to the confusion it would cause.
Hence why that rumor about it being a /pol/ prank seems likely, because is the sort of crap they would pull to mess with the ADL.
People still lost their jobs over it, so it seems your "context" doesn't even matter to begin with.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
You could literally read the article you posted and know the answer to your question.

According to the Anti-Defamation League, the gesture -- made by forming a circle with the thumb and index finger, and extending and separating the other three fingers -- has been used in recent years by white supremacists to form the letters W and P, but has also long been used as a sign signifying "OK" or approval.

Therefore it shouldn't be assumed to be a white supremacy symbol unless there is other evidence to support those claims, according to the ADL.

Except that doesn't really answer anything, as it doesn't specify what that evidence is. If you need more "evidence" for your symbol to work then it isn't really a symbol now is it? I doubt that real white supremacists actually use it for that reason, due to the confusion it would cause.
Hence why that rumor about it being a /pol/ prank seems likely, because is the sort of crap they would pull to mess with the ADL.
People still lost their jobs over it, so it seems your "context" doesn't even matter to begin with.

It's absolutely a /pol/ prank, and it's absolutely also a white power thing now, because neonazis have a distinct lack of critical thinking ability and when told something's a white power symbol they'll pick it up and use it. It's come up in the recent Charlottesville case, and the defendants happily admitted it's a white supremacist thing, just like chugging gallons of milk is now. Because nazis are dumb.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
You could literally read the article you posted and know the answer to your question.

According to the Anti-Defamation League, the gesture -- made by forming a circle with the thumb and index finger, and extending and separating the other three fingers -- has been used in recent years by white supremacists to form the letters W and P, but has also long been used as a sign signifying "OK" or approval.

Therefore it shouldn't be assumed to be a white supremacy symbol unless there is other evidence to support those claims, according to the ADL.

Except that doesn't really answer anything, as it doesn't specify what that evidence is. If you need more "evidence" for your symbol to work then it isn't really a symbol now is it? I doubt that real white supremacists actually use it for that reason, due to the confusion it would cause.
Hence why that rumor about it being a /pol/ prank seems likely, because is the sort of crap they would pull to mess with the ADL.
People still lost their jobs over it, so it seems your "context" doesn't even matter to begin with.

It's absolutely a /pol/ prank, and it's absolutely also a white power thing now, because neonazis have a distinct lack of critical thinking ability and when told something's a white power symbol they'll pick it up and use it. It's come up in the recent Charlottesville case, and the defendants happily admitted it's a white supremacist thing, just like chugging gallons of milk is now. Because nazis are dumb.

That must be why so many posters are worried about being mistaken for nazis, because they don't want people to think they're dumb.