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warpedpig wrote:
Bout time. Eldar deserve a turn to spank space marines hard. And you know they’re not changing the rules until the sales of Craftworld slow down.

If you have played this game for more then 2 years, you saying about time is hilaaaaaarious considering Eldar are the overpowered faction most of the time.


You strike me as someone who netlists top table lists to stomp 12 year olds in the local club.

 Galef wrote:

stratigo wrote:

I mean the playtesters are all going "Eldar are fething nuts guys. Like, burn all your armies now and buy out the craftworlds line, nothing else matters for however long it takes to nerf them"

I might be a bit hyperbolic there, but the rumors are churning that this book is going to be excessive and oppressive. So, just returning eldar back to the way the GW writers are comfortable with.

I started playing Eldar in 4th/5th and didn't ever feel they were that great. Fun, but not OP.
Then 7th happened and MAN that was some interesting times.
I was glad 8th toned them down, but I still think they over nerfed the WK and Bikes.
I'll enjoy the Eldar supremacy for the hot minute it lasts, but with Chapter Approved coming every 6 months now, I guarantee it won't last long.
Heck, it's possible GW already has points increases drafted and ready to go. Once the initial band-wagoners buy thier lot and sales dip, BOOM, points increases across the Codex

-

Eldar were the best army in 4th for a chunk of it. And 5th. And 8th. And, of course, 7th. And 3rd for that matter.

Like, vector engine nonsense was THE top level gak in 4th.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

 Galef wrote:

stratigo wrote:

I mean the playtesters are all going "Eldar are fething nuts guys. Like, burn all your armies now and buy out the craftworlds line, nothing else matters for however long it takes to nerf them"

I might be a bit hyperbolic there, but the rumors are churning that this book is going to be excessive and oppressive. So, just returning eldar back to the way the GW writers are comfortable with.

I started playing Eldar in 4th/5th and didn't ever feel they were that great. Fun, but not OP.
Then 7th happened and MAN that was some interesting times.
I was glad 8th toned them down, but I still think they over nerfed the WK and Bikes.
I'll enjoy the Eldar supremacy for the hot minute it lasts, but with Chapter Approved coming every 6 months now, I guarantee it won't last long.
Heck, it's possible GW already has points increases drafted and ready to go. Once the initial band-wagoners buy thier lot and sales dip, BOOM, points increases across the Codex

Similar for me, I started with Eldar in 3rd and 7th was by far the worst. Problem is myself and a lot of Eldar like players like to play the models that aren't broken, mainly the infantry like Aspects or Phoenix Lords, and those haven't been that great in a longtime. There's been some broken Eldar stuff every edition (7th Scatbikes and WK, 8th Flyers) but I would love to have a codex where most of the units are viable instead of just a few broken units or overly relying psychic combos.

Likewise I won't be surprised if they nerf the points after the initial sales rush. The WK was intentionally under costed on release to move models then got nerfed into the ground in 8th. With CA so frequent I doubt Eldar supremacy will last long. We'll see what happens.

Like, yea, 7th is the WORST, but Eldar have been meta defining or ruining for more of this game's history then they haven't been.

This thread is somewhat remarkable.

What other company would people just accept releasing a product that is broken (and I suppose there is still the chance it will be just fine), and moreover that the customers assume will only be fixed once sales have run their course?

That is a bait and switch. Plain and simple. And apparently it is just ok? So strange.

caladancid wrote:
This thread is somewhat remarkable.

What other company would people just accept releasing a product that is broken (and I suppose there is still the chance it will be just fine), and moreover that the customers assume will only be fixed once sales have run their course?

That is a bait and switch. Plain and simple. And apparently it is just ok? So strange.

If customers acknowledge it will be too good and subsequently toned down its not a bait because people are knowingly involved. Nobody says it is OK, simply that its how these things go. Likewise it's a real situation of not knowing whether incompetence or malice is the cause.

And players as a rule of thumb don't want balannce. Just ther faction be the op

tneva82 wrote:
And players as a rule of thumb don't want balannce. Just ther faction be the op

I don’t think that’s particularly fair or probably accurate in any way.

 ImAGeek wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
And players as a rule of thumb don't want balannce. Just ther faction be the op

I don’t think that’s particularly fair or probably accurate in any way.

Yeah. SOME players just want to be able to smash noobs and crush everything.

Most players want to have a good time and a reasonably fair match. They might prefer OP to UP, but well-balanced is the ideal.

Yeah about 80% of the people I've played with just want good rules and want to be able to play their favorite models. The other 20% want to steamroll.

I don't like that GW releasing something broken then nerfing it later but it's been their MO for a while now.

Dudeface wrote:

caladancid wrote:
This thread is somewhat remarkable.

What other company would people just accept releasing a product that is broken (and I suppose there is still the chance it will be just fine), and moreover that the customers assume will only be fixed once sales have run their course?

That is a bait and switch. Plain and simple. And apparently it is just ok? So strange.

If customers acknowledge it will be too good and subsequently toned down its not a bait because people are knowingly involved. Nobody says it is OK, simply that its how these things go. Likewise it's a real situation of not knowing whether incompetence or malice is the cause.

"Simply that its how these things go." That is exactly the problem. It isn't some uncontrollable mystical process. The company is making choices, and remarkably, those choices are just accepted as "how these things go".

 ImAGeek wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
And players as a rule of thumb don't want balannce. Just ther faction be the op

I don’t think that’s particularly fair or probably accurate in any way.

I mean, warpig posts here regularly.

It's not an uncommon sentiment, and that's the people willing to be honest that all they want to do is try and make 10 year olds cry

40K players always wanted "optimal builds" to exist, because "solving" list building is huge part of the total time spent on 40K. And "optimal builds" cannot, by definition, exist in a balanced system. This is also the drive behind jumping on a "new shiny" OP codex - people want to be the first, who come up with a top tier builds/combos, and each new codex is a new challenge.

The discussion about Eldar being OP throughout editions is pretty much a proof of that optics. Even in 7th ed it was entirely possible to build a thrash tier Eldar army, because not everything in the codex was Pale Courts WK+Scatbike+Warp Spiders+Farseer&superfriends combo. And many casual players remember editions by how their carefully painted and beloved models fared on the tabletop, not by what broken combo dominated top tournament tables.

 stonehorse wrote:
Nice wishlist.

Reality will be a new Codex, Cards, Dice, and if Eldar players are lucky a new Avatar model.

Guess I was wrong, seems the rumours had a lot of truth to them. Good time for those who collect Eldar!

 JNAProductions wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
And players as a rule of thumb don't want balannce. Just ther faction be the op

I don’t think that’s particularly fair or probably accurate in any way.

Yeah. SOME players just want to be able to smash noobs and crush everything.

Most players want to have a good time and a reasonably fair match. They might prefer OP to UP, but well-balanced is the ideal.

Couldn't agree more !

I just don't want to be stomped before we can both have fun. And if it means I won't ever stomp anyone, it's a sacrifice I am more then willing to make !

Regarding the "Buhu, we poor Drukhari players have to buy another codex to use Harlequins and get the Craftworld stuff for free instead of having to buy another codex and get nothing extra like in the past" whining:


From the Discord server, answered by OK_Entrepeneur.

Man… when people talk about how the game is so unbalanced and a big part of it is about list building, it makes me want to quit again. I hate the fact that that’s 40K.
Such a broken, uninteresting thing to build a game around.

I want the game to be about the actual gameplay, not about winning in the pre-game.

 ImAGeek wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
And players as a rule of thumb don't want balannce. Just ther faction be the op

I don’t think that’s particularly fair or probably accurate in any way.

I just want my Chaos Knights to not get shot off the board before I can move, since I can't hide them at all.

I know this could be seen as trolling, but I feel genuinely like a couple of you need to see this.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
In all seriousness, noone who follows the wargaming scene, and certainly not people who read dakka can be unaware of the long standing boom bust cycle of faction power levels and power creep in 40k. If the list building game turns you off or you aren’t enjoying the swingy nature of the meta, then the logical response is to try other stuff. I feel like GWs model of perceived exclusivity really exists to build up players perception of armies as a sunk cost from which moving on would be too costly, too difficult, too emotional, take your pick. Just try using your models in some other games or paint up a different project, and see how you like it. Come back to 40k when it seems like it may have come to its senses.

 Rivetbull wrote:
I know this could be seen as trolling, but I feel genuinely like a couple of you need to see this.

If this was for me, I totally agree. I play Infinity, Legion, Bolt Action and ASOIAF. But I also love the 40K setting and would love to play in the universe with a fun set of rules with the really cool figures.

 Rivetbull wrote:
I know this could be seen as trolling, but I feel genuinely like a couple of you need to see this.

90% don’t see playing in my area. Everyone scoffed at Legion and even MESBG’s relaunch, which is objectively GW’s best game.

Probably didn’t help that our only store was trying to sell some of the Legion character packs at $35 each when they retailed for $13 and were easy to find for that price online. They’re dirty like that

 zend wrote:

 Rivetbull wrote:
I know this could be seen as trolling, but I feel genuinely like a couple of you need to see this.

90% don’t see playing in my area. Everyone scoffed at Legion and even MESBG’s relaunch, which is objectively GW’s best game.

Probably didn’t help that our only store was trying to sell some of the Legion character packs at $35 each when they retailed for $13 and were easy to find for that price online. They’re dirty like that

It’s a real shame they didn’t want to get into Legion. Honestly one of the best systems I’ve ever played. I kinda wish it wasn’t Star Wars tho lol.

 Rivetbull wrote:
I know this could be seen as trolling, but I feel genuinely like a couple of you need to see this.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
In all seriousness, noone who follows the wargaming scene, and certainly not people who read dakka can be unaware of the long standing boom bust cycle of faction power levels and power creep in 40k. If the list building game turns you off or you aren’t enjoying the swingy nature of the meta, then the logical response is to try other stuff. I feel like GWs model of perceived exclusivity really exists to build up players perception of armies as a sunk cost from which moving on would be too costly, too difficult, too emotional, take your pick. Just try using your models in some other games or paint up a different project, and see how you like it. Come back to 40k when it seems like it may have come to its senses.

What if I told you...

...there are three ways to play Warhammer, and not everything has to be a competitive matched play game? Crusade is pretty darn fun, people, and you can absolutely use whatever you want.

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 zend wrote:

 Rivetbull wrote:
I know this could be seen as trolling, but I feel genuinely like a couple of you need to see this.

90% don’t see playing in my area. Everyone scoffed at Legion and even MESBG’s relaunch, which is objectively GW’s best game.

Probably didn’t help that our only store was trying to sell some of the Legion character packs at $35 each when they retailed for $13 and were easy to find for that price online. They’re dirty like that

It’s a real shame they didn’t want to get into Legion. Honestly one of the best systems I’ve ever played. I kinda wish it wasn’t Star Wars tho lol.

Way way off topic but, I was recently thinking where Legion went wrong was trying to have the game centered on the inherently binary faction pair offs from Star Wars. They need a version that caters to a crime lord + retinue and toys vs similar. Lean into what we are getting from the Book of Boba Fett.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Rivetbull wrote:
I know this could be seen as trolling, but I feel genuinely like a couple of you need to see this.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
In all seriousness, noone who follows the wargaming scene, and certainly not people who read dakka can be unaware of the long standing boom bust cycle of faction power levels and power creep in 40k. If the list building game turns you off or you aren’t enjoying the swingy nature of the meta, then the logical response is to try other stuff. I feel like GWs model of perceived exclusivity really exists to build up players perception of armies as a sunk cost from which moving on would be too costly, too difficult, too emotional, take your pick. Just try using your models in some other games or paint up a different project, and see how you like it. Come back to 40k when it seems like it may have come to its senses.

What if I told you...

...there are three ways to play Warhammer, and not everything has to be a competitive matched play game? Crusade is pretty darn fun, people, and you can absolutely use whatever you want.

While I agree that doesnt work for pick ups. The generally accepted rules are what is generally played. Arranging to play with a custom set of rules that both parties agree upon takes time and only really works if you have a close knit group.

Arguably if there ewren't 3 DIFFERENT ways to play but one thats modular that would be much easier to tailor a game to the bits we dont like.#

Having said that my local group is of the same opinion, we love the 40k setting, lore, characters etc, we just dont think the direction GW is taking the game is A) a good one, even from a tournament perspective and B) Supportive of the game actually staying dynamic. More elements should happen IN the game instead of deciding the majority of the tactics before you even start.

Some people just want to play games in the setting they love with the models they love and the army they have built a story round. The games easy to balance if no one is a dick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, whining about how broken the codex is when it isn’t even released is a bit premature.

Octovol wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Rivetbull wrote:
I know this could be seen as trolling, but I feel genuinely like a couple of you need to see this.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
In all seriousness, noone who follows the wargaming scene, and certainly not people who read dakka can be unaware of the long standing boom bust cycle of faction power levels and power creep in 40k. If the list building game turns you off or you aren’t enjoying the swingy nature of the meta, then the logical response is to try other stuff. I feel like GWs model of perceived exclusivity really exists to build up players perception of armies as a sunk cost from which moving on would be too costly, too difficult, too emotional, take your pick. Just try using your models in some other games or paint up a different project, and see how you like it. Come back to 40k when it seems like it may have come to its senses.

What if I told you...

...there are three ways to play Warhammer, and not everything has to be a competitive matched play game? Crusade is pretty darn fun, people, and you can absolutely use whatever you want.

While I agree that doesnt work for pick ups. The generally accepted rules are what is generally played. Arranging to play with a custom set of rules that both parties agree upon takes time and only really works if you have a close knit group.

It's supposed to. Crusade is intended to be a permanent, on-going system. You and I may never have met, but there should be ZERO stopping us from using existing Crusade forces to play a pickup Crusade game. Hell, Age of Sigmar actually does it better because you can work on your Path to Glory even in a Matched Play setting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:

Also, whining about how broken the codex is when it isn’t even released is a bit premature.

You must be new here.

 Rivetbull wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 zend wrote:

 Rivetbull wrote:
I know this could be seen as trolling, but I feel genuinely like a couple of you need to see this.

90% don’t see playing in my area. Everyone scoffed at Legion and even MESBG’s relaunch, which is objectively GW’s best game.

Probably didn’t help that our only store was trying to sell some of the Legion character packs at $35 each when they retailed for $13 and were easy to find for that price online. They’re dirty like that

It’s a real shame they didn’t want to get into Legion. Honestly one of the best systems I’ve ever played. I kinda wish it wasn’t Star Wars tho lol.

Way way off topic but, I was recently thinking where Legion went wrong was trying to have the game centered on the inherently binary faction pair offs from Star Wars. They need a version that caters to a crime lord + retinue and toys vs similar. Lean into what we are getting from the Book of Boba Fett.

To some degree you’re in luck haha. Scum and Villainy is the next faction to be released. It’s not the focus of the game, but still xD

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Man… when people talk about how the game is so unbalanced and a big part of it is about list building, it makes me want to quit again. I hate the fact that that’s 40K.
Such a broken, uninteresting thing to build a game around.

I want the game to be about the actual gameplay, not about winning in the pre-game.

It largely isn't. Caveats - terrain needs to be competent and a couple armies are a bit ahead of the curve.

However, there has NEVER been a time where I didn't feel like I was having an impossible game against Drukhari. The actual problem is that if I make mistakes - it hurts. If they make mistakes it's no big deal. And that's why they win more games.

GW DOES do a poor job at being consistent. And I can see them screwing this up. I bet we're seeing leaks, because the playtesters feel like this is a big issue.

That said, people are spazzing out a little too much right now. I am exhausted with the break-fix cycle as much as anyone, but it's absurd for others ( not you ) to assert that this is a sales strategy. We KNOW GW will address issues quarterly. We KNOW people already love the Eldar models and will buy them regardless. The rules have jack gak to do with how much people are excited for new releases for hugely neglected models.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Man… when people talk about how the game is so unbalanced and a big part of it is about list building, it makes me want to quit again. I hate the fact that that’s 40K.
Such a broken, uninteresting thing to build a game around.

I want the game to be about the actual gameplay, not about winning in the pre-game.

It largely isn't. Caveats - terrain needs to be competent and a couple armies are a bit ahead of the curve.

However, there has NEVER been a time where I didn't feel like I was having an impossible game against Drukhari. The actual problem is that if I make mistakes - it hurts. If they make mistakes it's no big deal. And that's why they win more games.

GW DOES do a poor job at being consistent. And I can see them screwing this up. I bet we're seeing leaks, because the playtesters feel like this is a big issue.

That said, people are spazzing out a little too much right now. I am exhausted with the break-fix cycle as much as anyone, but it's absurd for others ( not you ) to assert that this is a sales strategy. We KNOW GW will address issues quarterly. We KNOW people already love the Eldar models and will buy them regardless. The rules have jack gak to do with how much people are excited for new releases for hugely neglected models.

A good thing to realise in this context is that for people who don't hang out in LFGS all the time, quaterly means just after a couple of games played with their new toys - you have to assemble and paint new models and if you are not a tournament focused guy you often don't race with painting your stuff. There is a parallel thread "how to start a new army" and there are some people who plan their armies as a 2-3 years long endeavour. Main Dakka threads have always been dominated by meta-chasers while in reality many if not the most players do not have time/money/interest in the tournament meta and the game is and always has been about an occasional game with their carefully collected and painted army.

Dominated by 'meta-chasers'... or people just talking about releases (and thus by extension the 'meta')?

Some have strong opinions (both positive and negative), but I really doubt that most people here (from the way they talk) are the rabid WAAC players that get villainized so much.

nou wrote:
40K players always wanted "optimal builds" to exist, because "solving" list building is huge part of the total time spent on 40K. And "optimal builds" cannot, by definition, exist in a balanced system. This is also the drive behind jumping on a "new shiny" OP codex - people want to be the first, who come up with a top tier builds/combos, and each new codex is a new challenge.

The discussion about Eldar being OP throughout editions is pretty much a proof of that optics. Even in 7th ed it was entirely possible to build a thrash tier Eldar army, because not everything in the codex was Pale Courts WK+Scatbike+Warp Spiders+Farseer&superfriends combo. And many casual players remember editions by how their carefully painted and beloved models fared on the tabletop, not by what broken combo dominated top tournament tables.

The issue is that casual players play other casual players, so the overall tone of the codexes still matter. Sometimes there are codexes that have just a couple of excessive options and everything else is weak, in which case casual players suffer. But usually the best tournament codexes also make the easiest to build strong casual lists too, meaning casual vs casual, the better codex still wins pretty hard.

Like, right now, for Drukhari, you have to take tournament level listbuilding skills to make a bad list.

stratigo wrote:

nou wrote:
40K players always wanted "optimal builds" to exist, because "solving" list building is huge part of the total time spent on 40K. And "optimal builds" cannot, by definition, exist in a balanced system. This is also the drive behind jumping on a "new shiny" OP codex - people want to be the first, who come up with a top tier builds/combos, and each new codex is a new challenge.

The discussion about Eldar being OP throughout editions is pretty much a proof of that optics. Even in 7th ed it was entirely possible to build a thrash tier Eldar army, because not everything in the codex was Pale Courts WK+Scatbike+Warp Spiders+Farseer&superfriends combo. And many casual players remember editions by how their carefully painted and beloved models fared on the tabletop, not by what broken combo dominated top tournament tables.

The issue is that casual players play other casual players, so the overall tone of the codexes still matter. Sometimes there are codexes that have just a couple of excessive options and everything else is weak, in which case casual players suffer. But usually the best tournament codexes also make the easiest to build strong casual lists too, meaning casual vs casual, the better codex still wins pretty hard.

Like, right now, for Drukhari, you have to take tournament level listbuilding skills to make a bad list.

The example of 7th ed Eldar codex stays in direct contradiction to what you just wrote - they were meta busting in many different ways but still required a skill (or a netlist) to not build a trash tier lists, especially including Pale Courts - the most fluffy and interesting, and at the same time the most abusable part of the 7th ed Eldar, which gave birth to Warp Spider spam. The simple restraint from scatbikes solved like 50% of the power disparities problem but in the dakka discussions that never changed the myth of the grossly overpowered codex. In my experience casual and tournament are so heavily disconnected worlds, that any argument that healthy tournament meta automatically means a better play experience for the casual player has no ground in the real world. Unless we talk solely about pick-up culture, where it's probably true, but outside of US it is not as fundamental part of 40k experience as many folks believe. In every period I stayed active a close group of no more than 5 players formed, that was perfectly capable of honoring "not being a dick" rule and cross tailoring lists for mutual fun. Some of the best and closest games I had during 7th was Eldar vs Tyranids, a matchup deemed impossible to have fun with by many posters on Dakka.

There is some gross misconception perpetuating on dakka for years now - that somehow casuals are less knowledgeable about the game they play than meta focussed players. They are not, they simply use that knowledge towards a different goal.