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Well well, its been a long time since i bought a gw mini but i got around to getting the BT castellan and my word is i he big. Are characters bigger than regular troopers or what is going on here?

He's a Primaris. Primaris are made to be in scale with the regular humans, that over the years got out of scale themselves so Marines didn't look as imposing as they did.

It's also based on a specific piece of artwork as well so it's Primaris plus artistic license.

I was told this specific castellan miniature was especially chonky. He's almost as chonky as Trajann Valoris who's a custodes.

 Grimtuff wrote:
He's a Primaris. Primaris are made to be in scale with the regular humans, that over the years got out of scale themselves so Marines didn't look as imposing as they did.

Maybe I was wrong but I thought the big thing about this dude was he WASNT a primaris and was still a meaty boy. Is that not the case?

Keramory wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
He's a Primaris. Primaris are made to be in scale with the regular humans, that over the years got out of scale themselves so Marines didn't look as imposing as they did.

Maybe I was wrong but I thought the big thing about this dude was he WASNT a primaris and was still a meaty boy. Is that not the case?

His armour is very much not primaris, GW later said he could "be firstborn or primaris", so it's neither here nor there.

OP has discovered the No1 reason why I haven't bought any post-Primaris Marine sculpts.

He is a beefy chap, isn't he?

How does he scale next to primaris infantry?

 krijthebold wrote:
He is a beefy chap, isn't he?

How does he scale next to primaris infantry?

Primaris are about a head height taller, so looks about normal Primaris size, thought IDK about the body, could be slightly bulkier.

If you think that's bad, wait until you see the Primarch models.

As a collector with active models from the RT era, scale creep is nothing new… that said, I for one will never own a restartes model, double the ambiguous og marine identifying as a restartes.

The new BT castellan is more of a commemorative/homage miniature. It lacks the weapons options that you will find in the sword brethren box.

@grimtuff nothing about that mini says he's a primaris, neither the aestethics or the labeling on the package.

Also the scale creep is real right? Even without the whole primaris debacle. I mean the "new" chaos marines are just as big as the primaris right?

Does any other dakka users have any interesting scale comparision photos? Old vs new?

^Just this one which shows how stable Marine scale was up until just a few years ago. It's about 20 years of stability (which means 20 years of ebay back catalogue )

 Grimtuff wrote:
He's a Primaris. Primaris are made to be in scale with the regular humans, that over the years got out of scale themselves so Marines didn't look as imposing as they did.

Well primaris are 8 foot, marines 7 foot, human 6. Of course primaris are largest.

 Insectum7 wrote:
OP has discovered the No1 reason why I haven't bought any post-Primaris Marine sculpts.

Same. Unfortunately this isn't just a marine thing. Ork buggies (80-100 ppm models) have bases almost the size of a knight.

That's actually good to know, Gitdakka. Thanks for posting. I considered getting the model, but have no intention of buying any more midget Marines. Good to see he fits with modern Marine models.

 Blackie wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
OP has discovered the No1 reason why I haven't bought any post-Primaris Marine sculpts.

Same. Unfortunately this isn't just a marine thing. Ork buggies (80-100 ppm models) have bases almost the size of a knight.

The fact that they're on bases is still so goofy to me.

Better posture makes up some hight.


But there is some growth:


And once you cross the Rubicon Primaris, all bets are off:


In all fairness, I’m cherry picking some stupidly old examples for humor value. RT/2nd were a bit smaller, but things were mostly stable from 3rd on. The Deathwatch were slightly larger, but not so much as you would notice. I think a chunk of that was newer mold/sculpting and them standing more upright.

I can’t speak for Chaos.

I mean, i don't think scale between models is really that important. Plus, I like bigger models in general, more surface and more details.

This can be a bit dumb sometime, like, termagants are supposed to be not much bigger than humans, but the miniature is literally twice the volume as a guardsman.

The base size creep annoys me more than anything else (as I am wont to whinge on about in every thread where it comes up).

I'm pretty committed to continuing to game at 28mm so I guess GW are slowly cutting me off from new purchases. That's probably not a bad thing.

 Da Boss wrote:
The base size creep annoys me more than anything else (as I am wont to whinge on about in every thread where it comes up).

I'm pretty committed to continuing to game at 28mm so I guess GW are slowly cutting me off from new purchases. That's probably not a bad thing.

It irritates me that half my guys are on old bases, and it does impact how I expand squads. I do think that marines look a lot better on the larger bases though; they were hanging off the edges of the small ones. And it’s more stable for guys with jump packs/elevation issues.

While not covered by the rules, I also use base extenders on my genestealers. With their arms going everywhere, nobody is getting into BtB contact anyway, and they look better and are more stable on the larger ones.

Genestealers are one of the units that would benefit most from being on 32mm because of the crazy poses, but they're on 25mm.

Regarding base sizes, I think it's also irritating when they're expanded to account for some stupid piece of scenery GW has shoved onto the base.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Just this one which shows how stable Marine scale was up until just a few years ago

Nice cherrypicked photo, but it's a lie. It's all ancient plastics, ignoring pretty much any SM from this decade. Here, have ACTUAL picture:



New tacticals are almost as big as old metal termies, 1.5 heads taller than old SM models - gee, that sure is sTaBLe sCaLe And they are still heavily squatting, SM standing straight (like DW veterans or Japanese box models) are just as big as this metal termie. Ditto for new terminators, they make old ones look like children, and that's with 2014 boxes, never mind straight Japanese ones from last edition...

 Insectum7 wrote:
OP has discovered the No1 reason why I haven't bought any post-Primaris Marine sculpts.

You mean, proper human anatomy, that of a human, not gorilla missing half of the spine and pelvis broken in two?

There is this great line in Witcher books about pity, goats and women, that could be repeated verbatim for squats and primaris...

 Irbis wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Just this one which shows how stable Marine scale was up until just a few years ago

Nice cherrypicked photo, but it's a lie. It's all ancient plastics, ignoring pretty much any SM from this decade. Here, have ACTUAL picture:



New tacticals are almost as big as old metal termies, 1.5 heads taller than old SM models - gee, that sure is sTaBLe sCaLe And they are still heavily squatting, SM standing straight (like DW veterans or Japanese box models) are just as big as this metal termie. Ditto for new terminators, they make old ones look like children, and that's with 2014 boxes, never mind straight Japanese ones from last edition...

 Insectum7 wrote:
OP has discovered the No1 reason why I haven't bought any post-Primaris Marine sculpts.

You mean, proper human anatomy, that of a human, not gorilla missing half of the spine and pelvis broken in two?

There is this great line in Witcher books about pity, goats and women, that could be repeated verbatim for squats and primaris...

Uhhh. . . God I can't believe how wrong both you and your picture are. You see that "Years when painted (not manufactured)"? That's pretty key. That "1998" model is waaaaay out of place against actual 1998 models. Terrible reference my friend.

Terminators did change their scale when the plastics were released in 4th, but that's both minor when compared to the volume of the PA line, and odd because Marines don't grow bigger when they reach veterancy. They're not orks.

 Irbis wrote:
Nice cherrypicked photo, but it's a lie. It's all ancient plastics, ignoring pretty much any SM from this decade. Here, have ACTUAL picture:

First you complain about cherry-picking, but then post a photo that jumps straight from RT to late-00s, completely skipping past 2nd Ed where the longest-standing Marine scale was established. Notice the caption under the models. Insectum's point was that there was a twenty year period of consistent scale, and since that started in 2nd Ed, RT-era minis are irrelevant.

You also complain that Insectum's image shows 'all ancient plastics', but again your picture uses RT-era minis to illustrate how power armor scale has changed. The two more modern minis there are about the same size with different posing.

And then you complain that it's ignoring 'pretty much any SM from this decade', but the picture you post doesn't actually have any minis at all from this decade either, instead showing ones from the last decade... just like Insectum's image. Where were you going with that?

'ACTUAL' picture, indeed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Terminators did change their scale when the plastics were released in 4th, but that's both minor when compared to the volume of the PA line, and odd because Marines don't grow bigger when they reach veterancy. They're not orks.

Lemme help you out, since you guys have apparently had this conversation before.



Terminators have been subject to more scale creep than power armor. I definitely agree that from the early 90s up until the Primaris line, the scale of Marines stayed nearly constant, with apparent height increasing in later editions due to more upright and less squatting poses. There are some elements of older power armor models, particularly 2nd Ed pewter ones, that appear smaller, but that's mostly due to posing and the 'flat' look of one-piece pewter casts. It's not all exactly the same, but you can put them in the same army without it being readily noticeable. If you put the Firstborn in the OP into a pre-8th Ed army, it's going to stand out.

 catbarf wrote:

Lemme help you out, since you guys have apparently had this conversation before.

Sure have! It's why I made the pictures I thought it pretty well put the issue to rest.

Well, you can bring a horse to water . . .

 Nevelon wrote:


It irritates me that half my guys are on old bases, and it does impact how I expand squads. I do think that marines look a lot better on the larger bases though; they were hanging off the edges of the small ones. And it’s more stable for guys with jump packs/elevation issues.

Yes, having different base sizes for units of the same kind is awful. I wouldn't keem them on different bases, updating the older models with the current bases or even putting old size bases under the new models if I didn't like the current bases.

I'm all in favor of 32mm bases though, typically the models do look better in my opinion and some are even less wobbly. It's the massive bases (models?) that I can't stand, ork buggies went from being 25-35ppm tiny vehicles to something using 150mm x 90mm oval bases, almost competing with the battlewagons in terms of footprints. SM primaris grav tanks could have been so much better looking with actual tracks and no bases.

Bases under vehicles in general are awful and very impractical game wise and storage wise but with the new trend of basing every vehicles I bet even older kits will get their bases at some point, unfortunately.

Termies look pretty much on a similar scale IMHO, 4th edition ones are just slightly taller than ancient 2nd ones. 2nd edition models were a bit smaller for each armies though, models from 3rd-7th editions are perfectly interchangeable.

To add some insigth, these are a 2nd to 3rd ed pewter marine side by side with a 3rd - 5th plastic tactical. The scale in that range update was pretty consistent.

I saw your excellent scale vs timeline pictures but found this was a missing piece.