Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Darkseid wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Ah yes, the paying for balance patch has begun.
GW just could not resist to paywall the pts update.
Truly masterfully done.

Ever heard of battlescribe?

Isnt it the best when people complain about something that isnt actually a problem in their lives? I feel zero pressure to actually buy it. The app has most points correct and if they dont then when I build it in battlescribe I can check it.

I buy the combo pack because having everything available in the little book is helpful and throw out the points book once battlescribe updates.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Wait, so they nerfed the Beastboss but not the character version?

Because the character version basically costs the same, or currently 5 points less than the generic version because the Generic version is better in almost every way after you deck him out in the proper klan, relic and warlord trait. The character one is locked into Snakebites, arguably one of the worst Klanz in the book atm, and whose main selling point over the typical Goff version is a flat 3 damage weapon (only at S7 though), and that his squig does 4 mortal wounds instead of 3 if you roll a 6 to wound with the squig jaws. I guess he also has a 3+ save and 4+ invuln base versus the 4+ save and 5+ invuln of the normal BBoS, but he pales in comparison to the normal BBoS durability/damage output from getting either Ard as Nails/BBK with the Beasthide Mantle's 5+ FNP save.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Wait, so they nerfed the Beastboss but not the character version?

No competitive lists use Mozrog. He's overpriced if anything compared to a normal boss on squig and he's locked into a klan no one uses competitively and has to take a pretty bad warlord trait if you want to give him one.

The generic boss on squig is definitely way overpriced at 175 points. The normal beast boss on foot actually hits about as hard given similar relics and warlord traits, while now being almost half the cost. He loses some durability (2 wounds and the -1 damage), but you can put him in transports and he has the infantry keyword which makes him way easier to maneuver in game despite having half the movement of the squig boss.

As usual, these changes feel like they were made for a meta that might have existed at some point months ago. No one is running tons of squig buggies any more (they literally can't), so the price increase on them feels out of line.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Wait, so they nerfed the Beastboss but not the character version?

Asking this literally disqualifies you from every being taking serious in any discussion related to orks ever again

Huh, so the Plagueburst Crawler goes down - does that mean MASSIVE points drops for the Blighthauler and Bloatdrone?

 Dendarien wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Wait, so they nerfed the Beastboss but not the character version?

No competitive lists use Mozrog. He's overpriced if anything compared to a normal boss on squig and he's locked into a klan no one uses competitively and has to take a pretty bad warlord trait if you want to give him one.

Aye, i know, i'm suprised GW didn't do it.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Ah yes, the paying for balance patch has begun.
GW just could not resist to paywall the pts update.
Truly masterfully done.

A) this is old news
B) not balance batch. Sales tactic

Bigger sale point for book is scenarios. Hopefully more interesting ones than current copy&paste ones.

ERJAK wrote:
GW are dumb as gak.

Like 10 points on the Exorcist and Immolator (and straight up ignoring the Castigator which is the worst of the 3) is gonna do anything. The exorcist is 40pts overpriced MINIMUM and the immolator needs a 10pt drop on it's weapons IN ADDITION to the 10pt chassis drop to even see fringe play.

Meanwhile on the otherside Vulkite Contemptors and NDKs only go up 10 points? So space marine lists go up maybe 20pts and GK lists 30.

Then it will get changes on the next pass. I am absolutely no fan of big swings on points. The Talos drop was stupid and while I'm sure dropping the Exorcist more won't put it into Talos territory I'm not eager to run head first into that conclusion.

You also forget how it's going to be much harder for marines to score secondaries with engage requiring 3 models and RND requiring a test. The overall picture isn't simple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quasistellar wrote:
Aren't the points in the free version of the app also?

Still doesn't excuse if they don't give points out in a free pdf.

If your book is 8th edition - free for now. If you own a 9th book you'll get points there, too. Their app isn't worth using, but it will be there in any case.

What if.... GW did free point updates, but only updated them via their app?

Dudeface wrote:
What if.... GW did free point updates, but only updated them via their app?

Isn't that exactly what they do?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
If your book is 8th edition - free for now. If you own a 9th book you'll get points there, too. Their app isn't worth using, but it will be there in any case.

You get the points even if you don't have the 9E codex code entered into the app. Entering the code just lets you look at the rules for the model (and the rest of the codex), you can still build lists without doing so.

You're not even paying for the points. You're (over)paying for the Missions pack, the points just happen to be tagged along with that booklet.

 Fergie0044 wrote:
Huh, so the Plagueburst Crawler goes down - does that mean MASSIVE points drops for the Blighthauler and Bloatdrone?

I was hoping they would drop drones and not the PBC, but most took 2 to 3 PBCs anyway so this just opens up the rest of their list a bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Ah yes, the paying for balance patch has begun.
GW just could not resist to paywall the pts update.
Truly masterfully done.

A) this is old news
B) not balance batch. Sales tactic

Oh. My. God.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
GW are dumb as gak.

Like 10 points on the Exorcist and Immolator (and straight up ignoring the Castigator which is the worst of the 3) is gonna do anything. The exorcist is 40pts overpriced MINIMUM and the immolator needs a 10pt drop on it's weapons IN ADDITION to the 10pt chassis drop to even see fringe play.

Meanwhile on the otherside Vulkite Contemptors and NDKs only go up 10 points? So space marine lists go up maybe 20pts and GK lists 30.

Then it will get changes on the next pass. I am absolutely no fan of big swings on points. The Talos drop was stupid and while I'm sure dropping the Exorcist more won't put it into Talos territory I'm not eager to run head first into that conclusion.

You also forget how it's going to be much harder for marines to score secondaries with engage requiring 3 models and RND requiring a test. The overall picture isn't simple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quasistellar wrote:
Aren't the points in the free version of the app also?

Still doesn't excuse if they don't give points out in a free pdf.

If your book is 8th edition - free for now. If you own a 9th book you'll get points there, too. Their app isn't worth using, but it will be there in any case.

LVO and Adepticon are both between now and when they inevitably have to go back and fix Sisters after all this crap dumpsters the army. I could give a crap if they fix it 6 months qhen everything that these rules matter for is happening RIGHT NOW.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
GW are dumb as gak.

Like 10 points on the Exorcist and Immolator (and straight up ignoring the Castigator which is the worst of the 3) is gonna do anything. The exorcist is 40pts overpriced MINIMUM and the immolator needs a 10pt drop on it's weapons IN ADDITION to the 10pt chassis drop to even see fringe play.

Meanwhile on the otherside Vulkite Contemptors and NDKs only go up 10 points? So space marine lists go up maybe 20pts and GK lists 30.

Then it will get changes on the next pass. I am absolutely no fan of big swings on points. The Talos drop was stupid and while I'm sure dropping the Exorcist more won't put it into Talos territory I'm not eager to run head first into that conclusion.

You also forget how it's going to be much harder for marines to score secondaries with engage requiring 3 models and RND requiring a test. The overall picture isn't simple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quasistellar wrote:
Aren't the points in the free version of the app also?

Still doesn't excuse if they don't give points out in a free pdf.

If your book is 8th edition - free for now. If you own a 9th book you'll get points there, too. Their app isn't worth using, but it will be there in any case.

Yeah I agree - I prefer GW makes small points adjustments to nerf and buff units. I just wish they'd do them more often.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Fergie0044 wrote:
Huh, so the Plagueburst Crawler goes down - does that mean MASSIVE points drops for the Blighthauler and Bloatdrone?

I was hoping they would drop drones and not the PBC, but most took 2 to 3 PBCs anyway so this just opens up the rest of their list a bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Ah yes, the paying for balance patch has begun.
GW just could not resist to paywall the pts update.
Truly masterfully done.

A) this is old news
B) not balance batch. Sales tactic

Oh. My. God.

At least acknowledge that it's a poorly thought out, hilariously ineffective sales tactic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dendarien wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
GW are dumb as gak.

Like 10 points on the Exorcist and Immolator (and straight up ignoring the Castigator which is the worst of the 3) is gonna do anything. The exorcist is 40pts overpriced MINIMUM and the immolator needs a 10pt drop on it's weapons IN ADDITION to the 10pt chassis drop to even see fringe play.

Meanwhile on the otherside Vulkite Contemptors and NDKs only go up 10 points? So space marine lists go up maybe 20pts and GK lists 30.

Then it will get changes on the next pass. I am absolutely no fan of big swings on points. The Talos drop was stupid and while I'm sure dropping the Exorcist more won't put it into Talos territory I'm not eager to run head first into that conclusion.

You also forget how it's going to be much harder for marines to score secondaries with engage requiring 3 models and RND requiring a test. The overall picture isn't simple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quasistellar wrote:
Aren't the points in the free version of the app also?

Still doesn't excuse if they don't give points out in a free pdf.

If your book is 8th edition - free for now. If you own a 9th book you'll get points there, too. Their app isn't worth using, but it will be there in any case.

Yeah I agree - I prefer GW makes small points adjustments to nerf and buff units. I just wish they'd do them more often.

Small nerfs are fine, small buffs are useless.

Hitting Morven 15pts has a large cascading effect on sisters of battle list building. Buffing an exorcist 10pts has 0 effect on list building.

Buffing an exorcist 20pts? 0 effect.

Buffing an Exorcist 30pts? 0 effect.

Buffing an Exorcist 40pts? Now you have a legitimate argument for ONE in an army.

Nerfs have a significant immediate effect and must be done carefully. Buffs rarely matter unless they're very large or they're on units that were already seeing play like the PBC.

ERJAK wrote:
Like 10 points on the Exorcist and Immolator (and straight up ignoring the Castigator which is the worst of the 3) is gonna do anything. The exorcist is 40pts overpriced MINIMUM and the immolator needs a 10pt drop on it's weapons IN ADDITION to the 10pt chassis drop to even see fringe play.

Gladiator Lancer goes from 190 pts to 175. Since no one here probably saw it on table*, for reference its heavy laser does on average ~5 damage. Meanwhile, Tau are getting the exact same tank spewing buckets of unsaveable wounds for ~140. Balance!

*insert dumb conspiracy theory endlessly peddled here how GW makes every new model broken, if you ignore 95% of cases, that is.

 Irbis wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Like 10 points on the Exorcist and Immolator (and straight up ignoring the Castigator which is the worst of the 3) is gonna do anything. The exorcist is 40pts overpriced MINIMUM and the immolator needs a 10pt drop on it's weapons IN ADDITION to the 10pt chassis drop to even see fringe play.

Gladiator Lancer goes from 190 pts to 175. Since no one here probably saw it on table*, for reference its heavy laser does on average ~5 damage. Meanwhile, Tau are getting the exact same tank spewing buckets of unsaveable wounds for ~140. Balance!

*insert dumb conspiracy theory endlessly peddled here how GW makes every new model broken, if you ignore 95% of cases, that is.

Exact same, except for the effective 2+ BS, multiple shots, higher toughness, stratagem access, etc.

Not saying the Lancer is any good or that it shouldn't be cheaper, but it's definitely a very different tank.

ERJAK wrote:

Small nerfs are fine, small buffs are useless.

Hitting Morven 15pts has a large cascading effect on sisters of battle list building. Buffing an exorcist 10pts has 0 effect on list building.

Buffing an exorcist 20pts? 0 effect.

Buffing an Exorcist 30pts? 0 effect.

Buffing an Exorcist 40pts? Now you have a legitimate argument for ONE in an army.

Nerfs have a significant immediate effect and must be done carefully. Buffs rarely matter unless they're very large or they're on units that were already seeing play like the PBC.

This is the chassis of the Exorcist. There's nothing that says the ML couldn't also go down, which is what I presume you're concerned about.

I haven't assessed the Exorcist much so I'll take your word that 140 wouldn't be absurd, but it's possible that it could wind up at 150/160.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Small nerfs are fine, small buffs are useless.

Hitting Morven 15pts has a large cascading effect on sisters of battle list building. Buffing an exorcist 10pts has 0 effect on list building.

Buffing an exorcist 20pts? 0 effect.

Buffing an Exorcist 30pts? 0 effect.

Buffing an Exorcist 40pts? Now you have a legitimate argument for ONE in an army.

Nerfs have a significant immediate effect and must be done carefully. Buffs rarely matter unless they're very large or they're on units that were already seeing play like the PBC.

This is the chassis of the Exorcist. There's nothing that says the ML couldn't also go down, which is what I presume you're concerned about.

I haven't assessed the Exorcist much so I'll take your word that 140 wouldn't be absurd, but it's possible that it could wind up at 150/160.

This is a fair point. They could certainly lower the points of the EML and make the alt fire turret free, ending up in that range.

It would still be largely unplayable. The actual problem with the Exorcist is that it costs 2CP PER SHOT to shoot it's mediocre gun currently (leaving the exorcist in LoS of ANYTHING is an immediate death sentence at T7 and 11W). The only way to really remedy this issue through point changes is to make the Exorcist SO cheap that you can afford to sacrifice them after 1 volley. For that to happen it would have to be in the <=140pt range.

The Immolator on the other hand would immediately become a reasonable counter meta pick with an additional 10pts off it's guns. Immospam army's might be a somewhat viable check on crusher stampede.

The Castigator could be 40pts and I probably still wouldn't take it. It doesn't really do anything. The main gun averages 4 damage per turn on appropriate targets and it doesn't benefit from miracle dice at all. You'd be better off breaking your purity bonus and taking an SM Quad las predator most of the time. It's THAT bad.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Like 10 points on the Exorcist and Immolator (and straight up ignoring the Castigator which is the worst of the 3) is gonna do anything. The exorcist is 40pts overpriced MINIMUM and the immolator needs a 10pt drop on it's weapons IN ADDITION to the 10pt chassis drop to even see fringe play.

Gladiator Lancer goes from 190 pts to 175. Since no one here probably saw it on table*, for reference its heavy laser does on average ~5 damage. Meanwhile, Tau are getting the exact same tank spewing buckets of unsaveable wounds for ~140. Balance!

*insert dumb conspiracy theory endlessly peddled here how GW makes every new model broken, if you ignore 95% of cases, that is.

Exact same, except for the effective 2+ BS, multiple shots, higher toughness, stratagem access, etc.

Not saying the Lancer is any good or that it shouldn't be cheaper, but it's definitely a very different tank.

There's seriously no point in engaging with Irbis. Guy comes into threads all the time spewing hyperbole and verifiably wrong statements and never bothers to respond to when people call him out on his bullgak. Pretty sure he's just here to stir the pot and pull the victimhood narrative of being a poor "underpowered" marine player.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Like 10 points on the Exorcist and Immolator (and straight up ignoring the Castigator which is the worst of the 3) is gonna do anything. The exorcist is 40pts overpriced MINIMUM and the immolator needs a 10pt drop on it's weapons IN ADDITION to the 10pt chassis drop to even see fringe play.

Gladiator Lancer goes from 190 pts to 175. Since no one here probably saw it on table*, for reference its heavy laser does on average ~5 damage. Meanwhile, Tau are getting the exact same tank spewing buckets of unsaveable wounds for ~140. Balance!

*insert dumb conspiracy theory endlessly peddled here how GW makes every new model broken, if you ignore 95% of cases, that is.

Exact same, except for the effective 2+ BS, multiple shots, higher toughness, stratagem access, etc.

Not saying the Lancer is any good or that it shouldn't be cheaper, but it's definitely a very different tank.

They're in the same role. Though the Lancer is really 165 before gubbins. We don't have an official HH cost before drones that I know of.

vs Knight

Lancer - 2 * .833 * .666 * .666 * 5 = 3.7
HH - 1 * .75 * .666 * 11 = 5.5

vs T7 w/ no invuln

Lancer - 2 * .833 * .666 * 5 = 5.5
HH - 1 * .75 * .666 * 11 = 5.5

These are of course averages and the HH is feast or famine where the Lancer will be more consistently applying damage.

T8 makes up some of the gap. I don't think this will motivate people to take Lancers though except in edge cases.

Hammer head is gonna be 3+/4+ with a native reroll or 2+/3+ with a marker light. Its then going to wound most things on 2s and knights on 3s.

Not sure why people talk about it like its feast or famine when its 1 shot is much more reliable for getting results than 5+ shots of other weapons.

Hammer head is also 155 with two smart missile systems confirmed.

 Jidmah wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
What if.... GW did free point updates, but only updated them via their app?

Isn't that exactly what they do?

Almost, although a lot of people seem to think you must pay for the points. But I mean what if the MFM didn't exist. What if the only source of updates was the app, but it was free. Would that appease enough of the "stop charging me for my balance patch!" crowd?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Leth wrote:
Hammer head is gonna be 3+/4+ with a native reroll or 2+/3+ with a marker light. Its then going to wound most things on 2s and knights on 3s.

Not sure why people talk about it like its feast or famine when its 1 shot is much more reliable for getting results than 5+ shots of other weapons.

Hammer head is also 155 with two smart missile systems confirmed.

I'm confused why it's got WS 3+ BS 4+ base or is that not what you mean?

Dudeface wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
What if.... GW did free point updates, but only updated them via their app?

Isn't that exactly what they do?

Almost, although a lot of people seem to think you must pay for the points. But I mean what if the MFM didn't exist. What if the only source of updates was the app, but it was free. Would that appease enough of the "stop charging me for my balance patch!" crowd?

I treat them as the Karens of 40k. They want it exactly their way down to the minutia, and they will raise holy hell until they get it. It doesnt matter that you can play the game without buying this easily if you spend 5 minutes on google/in the app which is updated with rules purchase.

 Leth wrote:
Hammer head is gonna be 3+/4+ with a native reroll or 2+/3+ with a marker light. Its then going to wound most things on 2s and knights on 3s.

Not sure why people talk about it like its feast or famine when its 1 shot is much more reliable for getting results than 5+ shots of other weapons.

Hammer head is also 155 with two smart missile systems confirmed.

That requires markerlights, which is a cost.

Feast or famine means it gets through or it does not. When it does, it goes spectacularly. That statement is to help reflect that the averages don't tell the whole story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:
I'm confused why it's got WS 3+ BS 4+ base or is that not what you mean?

They mean the values for Longstrike / HH respectively.

Dudeface wrote:
What if.... GW did free point updates, but only updated them via their app?

The same app that tried to arm my Watch-Sergeant with two Heavy Thunder Hammers and negative 3 Combi-Flamers?
I'm afraid you set your hopes too high.

not being funny, but the points values on the app ARE free, you can see the points for everything, the costs of the weapons, the points cost upgrades for nits (for example helix gauntlet, or the proficient planning upgrades for GSC), all without paying the cost as far as i know (i do pay for the app so i might be wrong thier, but i can see all points costs even for 9e books i dont own/have codes for).

you dont get the abilies rules, WLT or strats, relics etc without paying, but you can see the current points costs without paying.

So, yhea, Games Workshop has a 100% free way of getting the points costs. I agree its not as easy as a single page list for the MFM, or battlescribe, but it DOES exist.

xerxeskingofking wrote:
not being funny, but the points values on the app ARE free, you can see the points for everything, the costs of the weapons, the points cost upgrades for nits (for example helix gauntlet, or the proficient planning upgrades for GSC), all without paying the cost as far as i know (i do pay for the app so i might be wrong thier, but i can see all points costs even for 9e books i dont own/have codes for).

you dont get the abilies rules, WLT or strats, relics etc without paying, but you can see the current points costs without paying.

So, yhea, Games Workshop has a 100% free way of getting the points costs. I agree its not as easy as a single page list for the MFM, or battlescribe, but it DOES exist.

I would argue that how unpleasant the app is to use should be considered a cost.

ERJAK wrote:

xerxeskingofking wrote:
not being funny, but the points values on the app ARE free, you can see the points for everything, the costs of the weapons, the points cost upgrades for nits (for example helix gauntlet, or the proficient planning upgrades for GSC), all without paying the cost as far as i know (i do pay for the app so i might be wrong thier, but i can see all points costs even for 9e books i dont own/have codes for).

you dont get the abilies rules, WLT or strats, relics etc without paying, but you can see the current points costs without paying.

So, yhea, Games Workshop has a 100% free way of getting the points costs. I agree its not as easy as a single page list for the MFM, or battlescribe, but it DOES exist.

I would argue that how unpleasant the app is to use should be considered a cost.

In that case, it's slightly cheaper than Battlescribe!