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So the crappy thing about this unit to me is that it just makes for a lot more die rolls. Now every time this thing shoots you have to do 4-5 FNP rolls.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So the crappy thing about this unit to me is that it just makes for a lot more die rolls. Now every time this thing shoots you have to do 4-5 FNP rolls.
FNP rolls happen for any wound where FNP rolls are available, and Rail Guns are hardly the sole source of MWs in this game, so it really just concentrates a lot of FNP rolls at once, instead of several over time?
"The weapon that doesn't even allow multiple categories of rolls by negating practically all saves and not allowing invulnerable saves is somehow increasing the number of die rolls" is a simply fascinating take.
The more I'm thinking about this, the more fascinating this take is.
This weapon can, for all practical purposes, be rolled for with a single wave of your hand using 4 d6 (preferrably 2 of one color, and 1 each of two different colors). The hit uses the two d6, with either hitting meaning the shot hits. If it hits, you look at the wound dice. If that succeeds, the last dice determines if its 10, 11, or 12 damage.
Not a lot of places where an action from start to finish with 4d6 rolled with one hand can have that much effect in this game, that I can recall.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/12/31 17:29:30
Most players like when damage is more average,it makes it more likely to occur and predict a damage range as opposed to there is a 64% chance you take 10-12 wounds and a 36% chance you take 0.
It is not a strong basis for competitive play across a series of games, which a tournament would be.
Whereas a Lucius 20 model vanguard blob would be, and ironically does similar or more damage after saves and what not, you just get to roll dice and pretend you will roll all saves consistently is the main difference, with the likely outcome gated behind a series of many dice being rolled.
Because those are the main three those things can be broken down into.
Arcane can cover everything from psyker abilities or runic inscriptions or BELIEVING! to daemonic vitality to C'Tan powers, etc. If it isn't a part of the warriors' wargear(cybernetic limbs, force field generators, extra hefty armor) or natural biology(for argument's sake, we'll throw "moves really fast!" into this although I don't believe Evasion should be an invulnerable save), it's Arcane.
But is Arcane/Biological/Technological a useful distinction? Granted, I can see certain anti-psyker weapons interacting with an Arcane tag, but how many weapons in the game would care whether an invuln was derived from tech vs organics?
Splitting invuls up based on how they manifest just seems like a more useful taxonomy. Forcefields can be negated by sufficiently powerful weapons or things designed to overload/bypass them. Evasion saves can be negated by things like template weapons that don't care where exactly you're standing. Anatomical is, admittedly, the weakest of my proposed categories.
Drukhari pain tolerance is great and all, but if you're on fire then you're on fire.
Shooting a Drukhari with an arc rifle might not do a whole lot other than the 'basic' damage...but against a Necron or a Skitarii or a Power Armored enemy with an invulnerable save that isn't Arcane or Biological it should be doing a bit more.
That's fair, but I feel like there aren't a ton of "anti-tech" weapons in the game. It's pretty much what? Arc rifles and haywire weapons?
The whole point of setting them up into those three categories is because "evasion" shouldn't be an Invulnerable Save category. If it's going to be a thing and if it's going to be used, it should be its own thing--and have counters that affect it.
Well, yes. Making evasion saves counterable by appropriate weapons is kind of my point. A flamer could reasonably turn off a star weaver's hologram projector save. A railgun probably shouldn't. As for invulns representing evasion, well, that just seems like a mechanically useful lever to have.
You're literally ignoring that what makes these kinds of weapons have a poor showing is that you don't get to control your opponent's list. You can't ask them "Please sir, put some tanks in so my Hammerhead can have fun!".
I mean, a big gun that does a lot of damage to a single target isn't that niche of a weapon. Especially if you keep the submunition shot around in some form (either as a strat or a second profile). If you're facing a horde with literally no vehicles or monsters in it, then sure. You'll be less effective because you're facing a skew list. Similar to how taking a wyvern isn't optimal if you're facing a vehicle skew list. The same is basically true of a squad of eliminators facing a daemon or 'nid horde.
Some options in 40k are specialized against certain types of targets. This means that those options can be rendered less effective against certain skew lists. If you have a way to prevent skew lists or bad matchups from being a thing in general, great. Otherwise, that possibility is neither unique nor especially egregious in the case of the hammerhead. Your opponent will usually have at least one decent target for a single big shot weapon (even if invuls make it a little less efficient), and the hammerhead has never been without some sort of submunition shot that lets it double as a decent anti-horde weapon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/31 17:52:29
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
So literally the only defense against this thing is A. ruin it's ballistic skill so it never makes the shot, OR B. FNP negates the damage. There are too many FNP units to count, but what ways are there to ruin it's shooting and force it to shoot at 5/6+?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So literally the only defense against this thing is A. ruin it's ballistic skill so it never makes the shot, OR B. FNP negates the damage. There are too many FNP units to count, but what ways are there to ruin it's shooting and force it to shoot at 5/6+?
If the Hammerhead stays BS 3+ base then 5/6+ is impossible because hit modifiers cap at +/- 1
(not counting stuff like the Culexus always 6+ rule because those are super rare)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/31 18:02:48
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So literally the only defense against this thing is A. ruin it's ballistic skill so it never makes the shot, OR B. FNP negates the damage. There are too many FNP units to count, but what ways are there to ruin it's shooting and force it to shoot at 5/6+?
Or C feed it something of lower value to waste a round on then nuke it in return.
But is Arcane/Biological/Technological a useful distinction? Granted, I can see certain anti-psyker weapons interacting with an Arcane tag, but how many weapons in the game would care whether an invuln was derived from tech vs organics?
As it stands currently? Probably not many going strictly off rules, since they gutted a lot of the rules like Armourbane, Fleshbane, etc.
Splitting invuls up based on how they manifest just seems like a more useful taxonomy. Forcefields can be negated by sufficiently powerful weapons or things designed to overload/bypass them. Evasion saves can be negated by things like template weapons that don't care where exactly you're standing. Anatomical is, admittedly, the weakest of my proposed categories.
The problem is that it's not simply template weapons that would be reasonably expected to negate or mitigate Evasion saves. There's also good old fashioned "lots and lots of bullets". Fields, unless specifically described as such, would be directional. Hyperactive poisons or radioactive effects could overwhelm biology.
I'm totally down for fields to be directional. But given how seemingly difficult it was for people to understand about positioning for how the Knights' fields worked? I don't think that's going to happen again.
That's fair, but I feel like there aren't a ton of "anti-tech" weapons in the game. It's pretty much what? Arc rifles and haywire weapons?
What are we defining as anti-tech? Strictly anti-force field, or also things designed to punch clean through heavy layers of reinforced armor and the like?
Because to throw an example out there that doesn't have anything right now: Vespids. Their weapons are supposed to bypass armor entirely, frying nervous systems and internal circuitry. Transauranic Arquebi are supposed to be able to punch clean through thick armour because of their ammunition. It's why they had Armourbane(roll 2D6 for Armor Pen vs vehicles) and could be a nasty surprise if played right.
Well, yes. Making evasion saves counterable by appropriate weapons is kind of my point. A flamer could reasonably turn off a star weaver's hologram projector save.
How does a flamethrower do it? By saturating the area.
You'd have more of a point if the Holofields were actually physically projecting them into another space--but the lore effectively is that it's a shimmery mess that makes them harder to track or pinpoint.
A railgun probably shouldn't.
Sure it should. The overpressure wave of the round traveling that fast, even if it kinda/sorta misses, would probably still collapse the field.
As for invulns representing evasion, well, that just seems like a mechanically useful lever to have.
It would be, if template weapons had ever been done sensibly. The constant tying them to flamethrowers or the like was daft. The Icarus Array is supposed to throw down extensive amounts of hard-rounds from the autocannon and barrages of rockets from the 'dumbfire' launcher it has. The Hydra is supposed to throw down ridiculous amounts of autocannon fire, with a sophisticated sensor array that locks onto the target once hits were scored. Hell, Radium Carbines are supposed to release so much saturated radiation that they create zones of radioactivity that can kill an unshielded individual within moments.
All of that would be just as much of a "NOPE!" to someone jumping around all nimbly-pimbly as a wall o' fire.
The TLDR? Adding some differentiation to the Invulnerable Saves would open up the ability to add some new life into weapons. Blessed (or Cursed or Warpfire or just Force) weapons could be given the ability to counteract or degrade Arcane based Invulnerable Saves. Haywire, Tesla, Arc, and Neutron weapons could be given the ability to counteract or degrade Tech based Invulnerable Saves. Poison, Plague, Radium, and Parasitic(Tyranid grubs, anyone?) weapons could be given the ability to counteract or degrade Biological based Invulnerable Saves.
Some weapons could probably even be given new life by reducing their current effectiveness by adding a bit of this to them. Plasma's too good now? Tone it down, but give it a bit of counterpunch to Tech/Biological saves. Melta/Fusion too good now? Same thing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/31 18:51:07
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So literally the only defense against this thing is A. ruin it's ballistic skill so it never makes the shot, OR B. FNP negates the damage. There are too many FNP units to count, but what ways are there to ruin it's shooting and force it to shoot at 5/6+?
Or C feed it something of lower value to waste a round on then nuke it in return.
You are assuming the tau player is a moron who is going to avoid the tasty targets. Also, what about the factions that literally can't afford to sacrifice anything? Custodians don't have pawns. Everything in their book is Rook level, with the exception of the Telemon, which is a queen. Same with knight lists. You don't have chaff when running the elite factions.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So literally the only defense against this thing is A. ruin it's ballistic skill so it never makes the shot, OR B. FNP negates the damage. There are too many FNP units to count, but what ways are there to ruin it's shooting and force it to shoot at 5/6+?
Or C feed it something of lower value to waste a round on then nuke it in return.
You are assuming the tau player is a moron who is going to avoid the tasty targets. Also, what about the factions that literally can't afford to sacrifice anything? Custodians don't have pawns. Everything in their book is Rook level, with the exception of the Telemon, which is a queen. Same with knight lists. You don't have chaff when running the elite factions.
A Hammerhead won't kill a knight in a volley before the knight kills the Hammerhead, same for the custodes dreads iirc and if it kills 2 custodes infantry, then you kill the tank in return, that's a trade up.
Edit: to be fair I'm also assuming this custodes player isn't a moron that just leaves units out to get ganked by hammerheads t1.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/31 19:24:39
If it shoots my Telemon, guess what, it's on it's last bracket basically. 18W down to 5-8. It's effectively useless for the rest of the game. If it kills two of my Guardians, I need to spend a CP to even have a Chance of killing it, likely just bracketing it, and that's if I throw a 5 person squad at it, which with spears is about 250 points, and is now down to likely it's last 2. A better tank killer would be the Terminators, popping out of DS. Or the Blade Champions. But BCs are 120ppm, and an HQ, the Terminators are 75ppm. For them to have a chance at killing it they need to have 3-4 survive, so thats a blob of 6, which is max, or 450points, to POSSIBLY kill a tank which is T7, 13 wounds.
I really can't stand the "buffs" my faction got this edition.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If it shoots my Telemon, guess what, it's on it's last bracket basically. 18W down to 5-8. It's effectively useless for the rest of the game. If it kills two of my Guardians, I need to spend a CP to even have a Chance of killing it, likely just bracketing it, and that's if I throw a 5 person squad at it, which with spears is about 250 points, and is now down to likely it's last 2. A better tank killer would be the Terminators, popping out of DS. Or the Blade Champions. But BCs are 120ppm, and an HQ, the Terminators are 75ppm. For them to have a chance at killing it they need to have 3-4 survive, so thats a blob of 6, which is max, or 450points, to POSSIBLY kill a tank which is T7, 13 wounds.
I really can't stand the "buffs" my faction got this edition.
Did I miss the Custodes codex coming out? or are you whining about your buffs that you haven't even seen yet.
Arbiter_Shade wrote: I love how people are acting like the objective game is gonna be hard for Tau, it's not like HH's are gonna have at least an 8" move and as vehicles there is literally no down side to moving with them.
I am not gonna go out and say that HH's are gonna be meta breaking but it just fething sucks that my models like Belakor are a liability on the table because of one unit. Monsters and vehicles have no defense vs this thing and just like most of 9th edition it is not fun to just pick up my models while the other player roles dice. Lethality wouldn't be so bad if there was some way to mitigate it but when your mitigation is hide and hope they can't get an angle on you, that is gak game play.
It is funny that you mention Belakor. He is the absolute worst target for an Hammerhead.
It takes 3 hammerheads 3 turns of continous fire to take him down.
I am sick right now so I can not run the numbers effectively right now but I don't think you are right when you are hitting on 5+, wounding on 4+ which will be a great candidate for a CP reroll since you can't reroll the tohit and each hit is going to average out to 11 wounds (3 MW + 8 base damage.)
This is not taking into account what markerlights might do next edition or what ever Longstrike is gonna do for his Hammerhead.
Plus, you don't have to one shot something to take it out of the fight effectively. If you get one hit in on Belakor for 11 wounds then you only need to do 5 more with other units in your army which is probably not going to be an issue for Tau.
Again I am not saying that the HH is gonna be game breaking, I really think that the meta will adjust and it will be one of those things that is scary but often not worth taking. What I AM saying is that it is a feel bad unit that is just completely unfun, it is literally a unit that your opponent doesn't get any interaction with other than picking up models. I say this as someone who plays Tau fish of fury style because I like mobile infantry with HH fire support. I don't like the mecha design that Tau got heavily into and prefer them as what they first came out as.
bullyboy wrote: This thing does both...oh and then tack on some MW too for good measure....because reasons.
People keep thinking the MW are to make it more deadly, but clearly that isn't the case as it ignores almost all possible saves. It's to allow an avenue for saves. That's the "because reasons".
Nah. You're over thinking it Daed. Doing (X) MWs on a successful wound roll is just what Tau rail weapons do now. Every railgun in the Imperial Armour Compendium does (X) MWs on a successful wound roll, the number varies, but they all do it. This one does 3 because it's a "big" railgun. It's also the only one that ignores invulns. But they all have the MWs rule, because, apparently, that's just what railguns do now.
And why do people keep assuming this thing will be hitting on 4s now? Hammerheads have been hitting on 3s for a long time, is there new information to suggest that's changing? Or is it just wishfull thinking?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So literally the only defense against this thing is A. ruin it's ballistic skill so it never makes the shot, OR B. FNP negates the damage. There are too many FNP units to count, but what ways are there to ruin it's shooting and force it to shoot at 5/6+?
Or C feed it something of lower value to waste a round on then nuke it in return.
You are assuming the tau player is a moron who is going to avoid the tasty targets. Also, what about the factions that literally can't afford to sacrifice anything? Custodians don't have pawns. Everything in their book is Rook level, with the exception of the Telemon, which is a queen. Same with knight lists. You don't have chaff when running the elite factions.
A Hammerhead won't kill a knight in a volley before the knight kills the Hammerhead, same for the custodes dreads iirc and if it kills 2 custodes infantry, then you kill the tank in return, that's a trade up.
Edit: to be fair I'm also assuming this custodes player isn't a moron that just leaves units out to get ganked by hammerheads t1.
In fairness though, we don't know the points cost yet. And assuming a duel between a Knight and Hammerheads, its a safe bet that the Tau, point for point will be fielding at least 2 of them, possibly 3 against the bigger knights. Same for the Telemon and/or Custodes.
1 vs 1, yeah the Knight is better, but that isn't a good measure of its usefulness, its point for point that tells us if this is good or not. I'll reserve my judgement until we see the points costs. What I can definitively say right now though is that if it doesn't go up at least 25%-33% its going to be dramatically under priced.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So literally the only defense against this thing is A. ruin it's ballistic skill so it never makes the shot, OR B. FNP negates the damage. There are too many FNP units to count, but what ways are there to ruin it's shooting and force it to shoot at 5/6+?
Or C feed it something of lower value to waste a round on then nuke it in return.
You are assuming the tau player is a moron who is going to avoid the tasty targets. Also, what about the factions that literally can't afford to sacrifice anything? Custodians don't have pawns. Everything in their book is Rook level, with the exception of the Telemon, which is a queen. Same with knight lists. You don't have chaff when running the elite factions.
A Hammerhead won't kill a knight in a volley before the knight kills the Hammerhead, same for the custodes dreads iirc and if it kills 2 custodes infantry, then you kill the tank in return, that's a trade up.
Edit: to be fair I'm also assuming this custodes player isn't a moron that just leaves units out to get ganked by hammerheads t1.
In fairness though, we don't know the points cost yet. And assuming a duel between a Knight and Hammerheads, its a safe bet that the Tau, point for point will be fielding at least 2 of them, possibly 3 against the bigger knights. Same for the Telemon and/or Custodes.
1 vs 1, yeah the Knight is better, but that isn't a good measure of its usefulness, its point for point that tells us if this is good or not. I'll reserve my judgement until we see the points costs. What I can definitively say right now though is that if it doesn't go up at least 25%-33% its going to be dramatically under priced.
I'm expecting a 2:1 on Hammerhead vs knight, which still wouldn't drop a knight a turn on average, but odds are it'll leave it in bad shape.
bullyboy wrote: This thing does both...oh and then tack on some MW too for good measure....because reasons.
People keep thinking the MW are to make it more deadly, but clearly that isn't the case as it ignores almost all possible saves. It's to allow an avenue for saves. That's the "because reasons".
Nah. You're over thinking it Daed. Doing (X) MWs on a successful wound roll is just what Tau rail weapons do now. Every railgun in the Imperial Armour Compendium does (X) MWs on a successful wound roll, the number varies, but they all do it. This one does 3 because it's a "big" railgun. It's also the only one that ignores invulns. But they all have the MWs rule, because, apparently, that's just what railguns do now.
And why do people keep assuming this thing will be hitting on 4s now? Hammerheads have been hitting on 3s for a long time, is there new information to suggest that's changing? Or is it just wishfull thinking?
Once, long ago all the Tau vehicle also had BS 4+ (or BS 3 so you hit on a 4+ because old edition). There was an upgrade to improve a vehicles BS by 1. The Hammerhead had this upgrade by default.
Later this was changes to simply give the Hammerhead a base BS 3+.
The new native re-roll they showed the Hammerhead will get has the same name as the old BS upgrade. So people jump to the conclusion that Hammerheads will go down to BS 4+.
That or they don't actually know Tau and think the Hammerhead has a BS 4+ because all Tau do.
Either way, I see no reason to assume the Hammerhead will go down to BS 4+ at this time.
bullyboy wrote: This thing does both...oh and then tack on some MW too for good measure....because reasons.
People keep thinking the MW are to make it more deadly, but clearly that isn't the case as it ignores almost all possible saves. It's to allow an avenue for saves. That's the "because reasons".
Nah. You're over thinking it Daed. Doing (X) MWs on a successful wound roll is just what Tau rail weapons do now. Every railgun in the Imperial Armour Compendium does (X) MWs on a successful wound roll, the number varies, but they all do it. This one does 3 because it's a "big" railgun. It's also the only one that ignores invulns. But they all have the MWs rule, because, apparently, that's just what railguns do now.
And why do people keep assuming this thing will be hitting on 4s now? Hammerheads have been hitting on 3s for a long time, is there new information to suggest that's changing? Or is it just wishfull thinking?
It's unknown at this point, but there's a few variables that I and others believe points towards a reduction to BS4+.
First, Hammerheads have had a 3+ to hit (at the time, called BS4) since their inception due to a specific piece of wargear that was hard-wired into the chassis, called a Targeting Array. The Targeting Array increased BS by 1, which means the Hammerhead chassis itself (without a Targeting Array) was the typical T'au BS of 4+ to hit.
8th edition Indexes came, and T'au Vehicle wargear suddenly disappeared from available mechanics without explanation. Hammerheads kept their BS3+. Forge-world, mostly doin' its own thing, had its vehicles with BSs that you didn't see outside of Commander or Special Characters in the Codex... aside from the Hammerhead, perhaps, the chassis essentially untouched from the Index.
9th edition comes around, and Forgeworld rules (now fully subsumed by GW rules writers) showcase a few things. First, all of the changes to the Rail Gun you saw except the Ignore Invuln (higher str, higher AP, more consistent damage, consistent MW generation), a few other tidbits... aaaaaaand all except the Titan-class Vehicles dropping back down to the T'au baseline of BS4+.
Finally, we have the Reveal, where we learn that there's something called a Targeting Array (hey, that sounds exactly like the Wargear that disappeared an edition-and-a-half ago), which has an explicit mechanical benefit (rerolling a single attack roll per shooting) that is not what it used to be (+1 to BS).
None of these are conclusive on their own, or even together. It's possible that Hammerheads and Skyrays retain their BS3+.
But in my opinion, that's unlikely. The more likely thing to happen is that we go to BS4+/3+ for Hammerheads/Longstrike respectively, which still gives Hammerheads a respectable but not oppressive hit chance. And whoofing one of those shots is going to hurt so bad. It also makes bracketing them extremely useful, as BS5+, even rerolled, isn't the accuracy you want on a probable 150+ pt single shot gun.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/31 21:50:30
bullyboy wrote: This thing does both...oh and then tack on some MW too for good measure....because reasons.
People keep thinking the MW are to make it more deadly, but clearly that isn't the case as it ignores almost all possible saves. It's to allow an avenue for saves. That's the "because reasons".
Nah. You're over thinking it Daed. Doing (X) MWs on a successful wound roll is just what Tau rail weapons do now. Every railgun in the Imperial Armour Compendium does (X) MWs on a successful wound roll, the number varies, but they all do it. This one does 3 because it's a "big" railgun. It's also the only one that ignores invulns. But they all have the MWs rule, because, apparently, that's just what railguns do now.
And why do people keep assuming this thing will be hitting on 4s now? Hammerheads have been hitting on 3s for a long time, is there new information to suggest that's changing? Or is it just wishfull thinking?
Once, long ago all the Tau vehicle also had BS 4+ (or BS 3 so you hit on a 4+ because old edition). There was an upgrade to improve a vehicles BS by 1. The Hammerhead had this upgrade by default.
Later this was changes to simply give the Hammerhead a base BS 3+.
The new native re-roll they showed the Hammerhead will get has the same name as the old BS upgrade. So people jump to the conclusion that Hammerheads will go down to BS 4+.
That or they don't actually know Tau and think the Hammerhead has a BS 4+ because all Tau do.
Either way, I see no reason to assume the Hammerhead will go down to BS 4+ at this time.
Yeah, that's my take as well. Important to note: as recently as 7th edition, Hammerheads were native BS4 (which meant that they hit on 3s), and could take a Targeting Array as optional equipment, which conferred the Precision Shots USR. So there is precedent for them having a Targeting Array and hitting on 3s. However dropping from hitting on 3s with a reroll to 4s with a reroll would make a significant difference in the Hammerhead's potential output, especially considering that gw has been giving out -1 to be hit strategems to vehicles like candy. Just one more thing we don't know yet.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So literally the only defense against this thing is A. ruin it's ballistic skill so it never makes the shot, OR B. FNP negates the damage. There are too many FNP units to count, but what ways are there to ruin it's shooting and force it to shoot at 5/6+?
Or C feed it something of lower value to waste a round on then nuke it in return.
You are assuming the tau player is a moron who is going to avoid the tasty targets. Also, what about the factions that literally can't afford to sacrifice anything? Custodians don't have pawns. Everything in their book is Rook level, with the exception of the Telemon, which is a queen. Same with knight lists. You don't have chaff when running the elite factions.
A Hammerhead won't kill a knight in a volley before the knight kills the Hammerhead, same for the custodes dreads iirc and if it kills 2 custodes infantry, then you kill the tank in return, that's a trade up.
Edit: to be fair I'm also assuming this custodes player isn't a moron that just leaves units out to get ganked by hammerheads t1.
In fairness though, we don't know the points cost yet. And assuming a duel between a Knight and Hammerheads, its a safe bet that the Tau, point for point will be fielding at least 2 of them, possibly 3 against the bigger knights. Same for the Telemon and/or Custodes.
1 vs 1, yeah the Knight is better, but that isn't a good measure of its usefulness, its point for point that tells us if this is good or not. I'll reserve my judgement until we see the points costs. What I can definitively say right now though is that if it doesn't go up at least 25%-33% its going to be dramatically under priced.
I'm expecting a 2:1 on Hammerhead vs knight, which still wouldn't drop a knight a turn on average, but odds are it'll leave it in bad shape.
Especially considering that the knight can't hide, at all, unless you have some ridiculously big opaque terrain, because gw doesn't think 18+ wound units should get any benefit from terrain.
Honestly, I think if gw would just fix terrain and LOS rules and change the negative modifiers to hit cap, this thing would be more reasonable.
bullyboy wrote: This thing does both...oh and then tack on some MW too for good measure....because reasons.
People keep thinking the MW are to make it more deadly, but clearly that isn't the case as it ignores almost all possible saves. It's to allow an avenue for saves. That's the "because reasons".
Nah. You're over thinking it Daed. Doing (X) MWs on a successful wound roll is just what Tau rail weapons do now. Every railgun in the Imperial Armour Compendium does (X) MWs on a successful wound roll, the number varies, but they all do it. This one does 3 because it's a "big" railgun. It's also the only one that ignores invulns. But they all have the MWs rule, because, apparently, that's just what railguns do now.
And why do people keep assuming this thing will be hitting on 4s now? Hammerheads have been hitting on 3s for a long time, is there new information to suggest that's changing? Or is it just wishfull thinking?
Once, long ago all the Tau vehicle also had BS 4+ (or BS 3 so you hit on a 4+ because old edition). There was an upgrade to improve a vehicles BS by 1. The Hammerhead had this upgrade by default.
Later this was changes to simply give the Hammerhead a base BS 3+.
The new native re-roll they showed the Hammerhead will get has the same name as the old BS upgrade. So people jump to the conclusion that Hammerheads will go down to BS 4+.
That or they don't actually know Tau and think the Hammerhead has a BS 4+ because all Tau do.
Either way, I see no reason to assume the Hammerhead will go down to BS 4+ at this time.
Yeah, that's my take as well. Important to note: as recently as 7th edition, Hammerheads were native BS4 (which meant that they hit on 3s), and could take a Targeting Array as optional equipment, which conferred the Precision Shots USR. So there is precedent for them having a Targeting Array and hitting on 3s. However dropping from hitting on 3s with a reroll to 4s with a reroll would make a significant difference in the Hammerhead's potential output, especially considering that gw has been giving out -1 to be hit strategems to vehicles like candy. Just one more thing we don't know yet.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So literally the only defense against this thing is A. ruin it's ballistic skill so it never makes the shot, OR B. FNP negates the damage. There are too many FNP units to count, but what ways are there to ruin it's shooting and force it to shoot at 5/6+?
Or C feed it something of lower value to waste a round on then nuke it in return.
You are assuming the tau player is a moron who is going to avoid the tasty targets. Also, what about the factions that literally can't afford to sacrifice anything? Custodians don't have pawns. Everything in their book is Rook level, with the exception of the Telemon, which is a queen. Same with knight lists. You don't have chaff when running the elite factions.
A Hammerhead won't kill a knight in a volley before the knight kills the Hammerhead, same for the custodes dreads iirc and if it kills 2 custodes infantry, then you kill the tank in return, that's a trade up.
Edit: to be fair I'm also assuming this custodes player isn't a moron that just leaves units out to get ganked by hammerheads t1.
In fairness though, we don't know the points cost yet. And assuming a duel between a Knight and Hammerheads, its a safe bet that the Tau, point for point will be fielding at least 2 of them, possibly 3 against the bigger knights. Same for the Telemon and/or Custodes.
1 vs 1, yeah the Knight is better, but that isn't a good measure of its usefulness, its point for point that tells us if this is good or not. I'll reserve my judgement until we see the points costs. What I can definitively say right now though is that if it doesn't go up at least 25%-33% its going to be dramatically under priced.
I'm expecting a 2:1 on Hammerhead vs knight, which still wouldn't drop a knight a turn on average, but odds are it'll leave it in bad shape.
Especially considering that the knight can't hide, at all, unless you have some ridiculously big opaque terrain, because gw doesn't think 18+ wound units should get any benefit from terrain.
Honestly, I think if gw would just fix terrain and LOS rules and change the negative modifiers to hit cap, this thing would be more reasonable.
Just so you're aware of the maths, a HH hitting on an unmodified 4+ (i.e. without any -1s or +1s) does 10-12 damage 62ish percent of the time, and if it hits on 3s it's 74ish percent of the time.
Tyel wrote: Maybe going out on a limb, but not convinced this is going to warp the meta any more than its already warped.
Its the equivalent of a Ravager with 4-5 shots. This has a different probability curve on the damage - 10-12 wounds or nothing is I think is worse for the game - but in terms of competitive play I don't think that matters.
Sure if your opponent brings 3 and they all hit and wound and blow up three of your vehicles/monsters that's going to be lame. But if I bring 3 ravagers and, idk, a Jetfighter, and I roll in the upper 25% outcome bracket, I'm going to kill a load of your stuff too. That's just 9th edition.
I stand corrected.
Im certainly interested in seeing what shakes out of this codex.
Either way, I see no reason to assume the Hammerhead will go down to BS 4+ at this time.
Definitely BS3+ base. But unless tau get multiple stackable ways to gain +1 to hit the Hammered will always hit on 3s or 4s due to how easy is to give -1 to hit to targets through terrain or special rules, stratagems, etc.. Just the gigantic targets might suffer.
I feel like the no invul saves maybe too much like can it just -1 or -2 invul saves as well because, you know, really strong tank killer, but still deal the mortals no matter what, like if it hits its auto 3 mw before seeing if wounds went through. We can then have it be --1/--2 like the saves being 4++ or 5++ for invul saves. And at this point only premier tank killing level weapons like ones to hunt titanic or specialized ones like executioner battle cannon.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/01 08:36:49
Despite many considering it a bad thing for the game, the fact that recently weapons saw and increase in the number of attacks, is actually quite good.
The more the output of a weapon is split in several attacks, the less the game depends on the randomness of the dices.
This weapon instead goes completely against that concept, and this is why it isn't good for the game.
It doesn't have a problem of firepower, or MWs or ignore invul or stuff like that. It has a problem on the distribution of results.
All or nothing.
The existence of this weapon makes the game a lot more dice based. Hitting or missing with it makes a huge swing in the course of the game.
bullyboy wrote: This thing does both...oh and then tack on some MW too for good measure....because reasons.
People keep thinking the MW are to make it more deadly, but clearly that isn't the case as it ignores almost all possible saves. It's to allow an avenue for saves. That's the "because reasons".
Ah yes, the handcrafted design to be ever-so-slightly worse if the Hammerhead happens to be facing off against very specific subfactions that will possibly shrug off an average of 1 in 3 mortal wounds. I can taste the game balance.
That's the difference between a dead vehicle and an alive one, which means they've needing to have other guns in place. Burst cannons are still only 18", which is quite short if you're trading tanks. Honestly this is probably the best way to make a unit that only really gets one shot - at least Raiders can still transport models.
This thing is still a huge problem for superheavies so the full jury is still out until we have the whole picture.
Anyway of the next books the following have a general purpose FNP:
Admech - 4+++
Marines
The entire GK army
Thousand Sons
And these have a strat to go top profile:
Admech
Marines PotMS GKPotMS DGPotMS TSPotMS
Necrons have none, but have Quantum Shielding and a subfaction. DE have nothing, but I don't think anyone cares there. Orks have none, but have high wound counts on the vehicles that would care. Sisters have none, but aren't a "big vehicle" army.
This is all aside from prayers, spells, other abilities, or armies that can double repair.
~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200