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The lack of atmosphere is exactly why it's so lethal for marines, even in terminator armour it just needs to be sufficiently breached and Total Recall-esque decompression occurs (40k being a cinematic universe, ultimately). The stealers are not necessarily killing as such, but the result is still a 'kill'.

That aside, why WOULDN'T you wear terminator armour? A space hulk is the suits happy hunting ground, where it's lack of agility is offset by a lack of need for agility. Don't forget they were adapted for bunker assaults in the first place.

As for normal marines, oh god no, the rules mentioned above had them horribly outclassed, more so than Terminators.

We have to remember when Space Hulk was first released that 40k as it is now was in its infancy. Space Marines were quite different to what they are now.

As people have pointed out the in universe explanations (environmental protection, teleport, stabiliser, etc), we also need to look at it from a purely game perspective. Terminators and Genestealers are diametrically opposed. One is a super fast apex predatory alien, the other is (was at the time) the best suit of armour available, which is slow and kicks out some serious firepower. This offers both players a completely different experience, and offers a lot of replayability.

If Space Hulk were to be released now, I think we'd see these Primaris (Agressors I think they are called) with the powerfists with inbuilt bolter or flamers instead of Terminators... or a new Primaris version of a Terminator and quite possibly a new Genestealer model/type.

Again, a Space marine in tactical dread naught armor has to be near chaptermaster levels of strong to maintain the same level of speed as not in terminator armor. I would say when dealing with extremely fast enemies that can cut through your terminator plate just as fast as normal armor, speed and reflexes take the prize over "Strength". As far as the fluff is concerned, environment stopped being a problem as soon as they had space marines literally hand fighting deathguard outside the battleship, after one of the hulls was blown out. There is no specific threat environment that Terminator armor protects against better than regular armor. Plague toxins and miasma can get into anything, including terminator armor.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Again, a Space marine in tactical dread naught armor has to be near chaptermaster levels of strong to maintain the same level of speed as not in terminator armor. I would say when dealing with extremely fast enemies that can cut through your terminator plate just as fast as normal armor, speed and reflexes take the prize over "Strength".

Yes but Genestealers aren't the only thing ever on board a Space Hulk and Terminator Armour is not exclusively used as Space Hulk boarding gear. You might find Genestealers on a Space Hulk but you are also just as likely to find generic Mutants, servants of Chaos ranging from Cultists to a full-on CSM Warband, Orks, various dangerous aliens like the Hrud, or even Warp creatures like Daemons. Terminator Armour gives you the best all-round protection from combat threats and environmental ones.

As far as the fluff is concerned, environment stopped being a problem as soon as they had space marines literally hand fighting deathguard outside the battleship, after one of the hulls was blown out. There is no specific threat environment that Terminator armor protects against better than regular armor. Plague toxins and miasma can get into anything, including terminator armor.

Firstly, when did this happen?
Secondly, toxic fumes and plague juice are physical problems. Terminator Armour has advanced shielding to allow the wearer to venture into areas with intense amounts of harmful radiation, something Power Armour doesn't have. It's a very different kettle of fish standing on the outer hull of a starship and compared to standing 20 feet away from a decaying and damaged Warp/Nuclear reactor.

It is canon that Terminator armor protects better than Power Armor in extreme environments and against various threats.

OP has missed the obvious implication that regular Power Armour is useless against some denizens of Space Hulks and the protection afforded by TDA outweighs the manoeuvrability drawbacks. So it’s TDA or nothing if you want to survive, and even then, it’s gonna be a gamble…

IIRC there is a computer version of Space Hulk where a voiceover speaks "Tactical Dreadnought armour offers protection even from the colossal impact of high speed orbital micro debris" so at least at the time GW hinted that PA doesn't cut it in hazardous void condditions. Of course that didn't contradict with the part of the lore which indicated that regular marines with lascutters, and especially assault marines, were typically used in standard boarding actions. A dormant space hulk is a much more hazardous environment as a boarding action, with a bunch of unknown dangers. Even when the marines use C.A.T. units to scout areas of the space hulk, there are too much random conditions ahead that TDA is your best bet (Something even better would be even better but by then it doesn't fit the corridors no more..)

PS: Take a look at this pict from Space Hulk.. Deathwing expansion IIRC? TDAs werent the only game in town in Space Hulks ops. BTW Miss Advanced Space Crusade, that was basically like this "expanded space hulk" someone was craving for. You could even use Space Hulk map tiles & minis..

To demonstrate a difference to some more numerically minded people, as I recall the differences between power armour and terminator was:
Power armour turned for free like genestealers. Still only 4AP though.
Only threw 1 dice for shooting (so couldn't jam, but you're fishing for a 6 on 1d6 rather than 2)
Close combat was 1d6 MINUS 2, a sergeant was 'only' MINUS 1. (text rather than maths used for emphasis).
The problem is the opponent. Genestealers are THAT nasty (and of course for the thematic game elements Stonehorse says above). Against literally any other, more conventional opponent Terminators would be overkill which is why they're the first option if possible; never give a sucker an even break. There were also rules for Chaos terminators on the other side but that's getting into a whole other realm of pain.

 tauist wrote:
IIRC there is a computer version of Space Hulk where a voiceover speaks "Tactical Dreadnought armour offers protection even from the colossal impact of high speed orbital micro debris" so at least at the time GW hinted that PA doesn't cut it in hazardous void condditions. Of course that didn't contradict with the part of the lore which indicated that regular marines with lascutters, and especially assault marines, were typically used in standard boarding actions. A dormant space hulk is a much more hazardous environment as a boarding action, with a bunch of unknown dangers. Even when the marines use C.A.T. units to scout areas of the space hulk, there are too much random conditions ahead that TDA is your best bet (Something even better would be even better but by then it doesn't fit the corridors no more..)

Standard power armour is fine in a void, but it depends on how long the operation is expected to be. If the time in the void will be short, so even during boarding the time within the void will be limited until they are back in a pressurised environment, standard power armour is fine for such things.

If the operation is expected to be a significant amount of time in the void, then void hardened power armour can be utilised. Whilst terminator armour may be superior in protracted void environments, there is also limited amounts of it, so if a larger force is needed, the power armoured boys are going to be pulling the weight also. There is a cost to upgrading a power armour suit to be void hardened though, and it requires more maintenance and can burn out the servos, it also isn't necessarily as manoeuvrable as it depends on the chapters level of artifice. This is in part a reason why terminator armour started to get employed in void environments.

In regards to the original question, they may not know what the threat will be, as is always stated by others so Terminator armour is seen as the wisest choice. However I do actually agree with the point that, if they know it is genestealers, then void hardened armour or standard power armour may be seen as a better fit due to being a bit more agile. Providing they are taking a force that can keep the GS at bay without entering melee, at which point, if melee is guaranteed, then terminator armour is still going to be the best bet. Also, as always, it is worth pointing out that what may seem like a death of a terminator, is in fact an incapacitation.

 Gert wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Again, a Space marine in tactical dread naught armor has to be near chaptermaster levels of strong to maintain the same level of speed as not in terminator armor. I would say when dealing with extremely fast enemies that can cut through your terminator plate just as fast as normal armor, speed and reflexes take the prize over "Strength".

Yes but Genestealers aren't the only thing ever on board a Space Hulk and Terminator Armour is not exclusively used as Space Hulk boarding gear. You might find Genestealers on a Space Hulk but you are also just as likely to find generic Mutants, servants of Chaos ranging from Cultists to a full-on CSM Warband, Orks, various dangerous aliens like the Hrud, or even Warp creatures like Daemons. Terminator Armour gives you the best all-round protection from combat threats and environmental ones.

As far as the fluff is concerned, environment stopped being a problem as soon as they had space marines literally hand fighting deathguard outside the battleship, after one of the hulls was blown out. There is no specific threat environment that Terminator armor protects against better than regular armor. Plague toxins and miasma can get into anything, including terminator armor.

Firstly, when did this happen?
Secondly, toxic fumes and plague juice are physical problems. Terminator Armour has advanced shielding to allow the wearer to venture into areas with intense amounts of harmful radiation, something Power Armour doesn't have. It's a very different kettle of fish standing on the outer hull of a starship and compared to standing 20 feet away from a decaying and damaged Warp/Nuclear reactor.

The final Dawn of War book. They are attacked by DG, who somehow "latch onto" the hull, then explode, causing a breach. Most of the marines die, but those who are smart maglock themselves, and begin fighting DG in vaccum.

as far as other arguments, how do non-terminator armor wearing species contend and survive in this killer environments? If a Terminator can barely survive, are we suddenly saying a Gene Stealer or a traitor guardsman, or an ork nob, are equal to or just as tough?

The melanchromic organ and the Mucranoid (though this has to be activated in advance of combat, presumably by apothacaries) also allow a marine to survive in a vacuum in the case of an armour breach. It won't necessarily make them combat effective, but they can survive. Both in conjunction with the Sus-an Membrane can protect the marine long enough to enter suspended animation (if they are skilled enough to enter it) in which case they can survive even longer in a void situation until they are retrieved.

Books aren't the best place for concrete lore as it depends on how well acquainted the writer is with the material. A marine can and they have survived being exposed to a vacuum.

Also, nobody is saying Power armor isn't void-capable. It just doesn't offer nearly the protection as Terminator armor.

+1 to Pilum, I was gonna post the same SH rules.

The space hulk game is just one aspect of boarding, investigating and scavenging from space hulks. It’s pretty much the worst one as it involves being hunted by spiky death monsters that can get through the toughest personal armour deployed By humanity. A terminator boarding party might need to move through all sorts of stuff to get to their goal. Hulks are amalgamations of multiple ships, each of which are at least kilometres long, and possible orders of magnitude larger. There is a lot of volume for a wild range of habitats, environments and weird stuff going on.

Non-terminator types probably don’t live In The most extreme environments that the boarding party might need to move through. Genestealers can apparently function in vacuum, and they are the hostile environment in those parts of the hulk within which they can function.

Also terminators might have a limited range of motion, but they shouldn’t be slow moving due to the additional motivator gubbins they have. Not as fast as genestealers, but then little else in the galaxy is supposed to be moving as fast as a genestealer.

I thought it was canon that a brother in Terminator armor literally can't run. It overtaxes the systems. The best they can do is a loping plod. Also, the games about space hulk are gutter trash. I'd rather play DoW3 than go back into the walking trashcan simulator that was the latest one.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The final Dawn of War book. They are attacked by DG, who somehow "latch onto" the hull, then explode, causing a breach. Most of the marines die, but those who are smart maglock themselves, and begin fighting DG in vaccum.

The books by C.S. Goto? I'm not trying to be rude here but the less said about Goto's work is better. His books were massively out of sync with even the most basic of 40k background, like Aeldari skimmers being taken down by children throwing rocks or Terminators leaping through the air.
I think you need to start looking at more than one source when you make arguments because a lot of stuff you post is solved by looking at literally one more source.

as far as other arguments, how do non-terminator armor wearing species contend and survive in this killer environments? If a Terminator can barely survive, are we suddenly saying a Gene Stealer or a traitor guardsman, or an ork nob, are equal to or just as tough?

Orks are naturally tough organisms and the harsh environments of Space Hulks only make them tougher/stronger if they survive. Indeed Orks prefer it when a Space Hulk is infested with all manner of things as seen below in what is possibly the best 40k quote ever:

Genestealers actually spend most of their time in hibernation on Hulks, in a sort of suspended animation until a Broodlord or Patriarch wakes them to defend the brood.
Generally, humans don't fare well on Hulks, and it's only if they've prepared hidey holes and safe zones that they'll be active enough to cause issues. Some CSM Warbands operate out of Hulks for many of the same reasons as Orks. A ready-made base of operations that contains foes to hunt and hone skills as well as potential Dark Age tech they can unleash on unsuspecting worlds.
Also, nobody said Terminators "barely" survive. At all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I thought it was canon that a brother in Terminator armor literally can't run. It overtaxes the systems.

Slow for a Space Marine is still faster than most things.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I thought it was canon that a brother in Terminator armor literally can't run.

Terminators could make a run move in 2nd edition. They have the same number of action points as a PA Marine in Space Hulk, except are slow at turning. Terminators could not make a Sweeping Dvance to catch models during the 3-7th rule sets. But they can Advance like anyone else. They are currently slightly slower than a marine in PA.

In short, they are not as mobile, although can still do a lot. They remain way more protected though, and make for more stable firing platforms.

 Gert wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The final Dawn of War book. They are attacked by DG, who somehow "latch onto" the hull, then explode, causing a breach. Most of the marines die, but those who are smart maglock themselves, and begin fighting DG in vaccum.

The books by C.S. Goto? I'm not trying to be rude here but the less said about Goto's work is better. His books were massively out of sync with even the most basic of 40k background, like Aeldari skimmers being taken down by children throwing rocks or Terminators leaping through the air.
I think you need to start looking at more than one source when you make arguments because a lot of stuff you post is solved by looking at literally one more source.

as far as other arguments, how do non-terminator armor wearing species contend and survive in this killer environments? If a Terminator can barely survive, are we suddenly saying a Gene Stealer or a traitor guardsman, or an ork nob, are equal to or just as tough?

Orks are naturally tough organisms and the harsh environments of Space Hulks only make them tougher/stronger if they survive. Indeed Orks prefer it when a Space Hulk is infested with all manner of things as seen below in what is possibly the best 40k quote ever:

Spoiler:

Travellin' through space is boring. Well, boring unless da hulk yer on is full of dem gene-sneakers, or a base fer da chaos lads wiv da spikes, or already has Boyz on it. Or if humie lootas come callin', that's always good fer a bit a sport. Or unless yer have a mutiny or two to pass da time, or unless strange fings start happenin', which dey usually do when yer out in da warp. One time we had some bloody great ugly fing come straight out of Weird Lugwort's 'ed! It butchered half da lads, that was pretty entertainin'. Come ter fink of it, space is a pretty good larf. And that's before yer find yerself a nice world ta crush!

Genestealers actually spend most of their time in hibernation on Hulks, in a sort of suspended animation until a Broodlord or Patriarch wakes them to defend the brood.
Generally, humans don't fare well on Hulks, and it's only if they've prepared hidey holes and safe zones that they'll be active enough to cause issues. Some CSM Warbands operate out of Hulks for many of the same reasons as Orks. A ready-made base of operations that contains foes to hunt and hone skills as well as potential Dark Age tech they can unleash on unsuspecting worlds.
Also, nobody said Terminators "barely" survive. At all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I thought it was canon that a brother in Terminator armor literally can't run. It overtaxes the systems.

Slow for a Space Marine is still faster than most things.

No sorry, dawn of fire - avenging son. I think it was the last book, where the Ultra's ship gets boarded by the DG. Sorry.

Do you mean Godblight? Avenging Son doesn't have the Death Guard in it and regardless, Astartes can fight for a short time in the void but Galactic Cosmic Radiation isn't as much of a concern as potentially walking in a ship contaminated with hundreds of years of leaking plasma coolant, Warp reactors, and Dark Age tech. Terminator Armour works much better and the time an Astartes can stay in the void is greater than in Power Armour.

It would also depend on which mark of TDA is being used as to how much speed it has.

From what I can remember it was;
Cataphractii - most protection but slow movement (4" move and 4+ invuln)
Indomitus - some restrictions on movement with a slight decrease in protection (5" move & 5+ invuln)
Tartaros - best of all in speed and protection (6" move & 5+ invuln)

The weapons loadouts are diff as Cats/Tarts get grenades but Indom get SS.

The biggest reason is that terminator armor can protect you in the warp for long enough to make teleportation retrieval viable.

 Pacific wrote:
A half-joking thread here. After spending a bit of time playing Space Hulk recently, why do marines bother to wear Terminator armour when boarding Space Hulks?
- As represented in the rules, the vast majority of the time a 'Stealer gets into melee with a marine, the marine is toast. If the 'Stealers claws 'cut through adamantium and ceramite like tissue paper' (this is repeated in the lore at least once every paragraph) what benefit is there to having super thick armour? May as well be just in a pair of boxer shorts.
- Terminator armour vastly restrict movement and slows the Marine down significantly. This compounds lack of maneuverability against an agile foe; even if not in just underwear, at least wear armour that allows you step sideways?
- Terminator armour is so valued and irreplaceable, why risk it in an environment where it apparently has seemingly no value? It's basically the equivalent of asking the marines to walk around with Faberge eggs. They can't continue with the Space Hulk boarding because they then run out of funding.

I may have identified a central flaw in the concept of Space Hulk assaults. What are people's thoughts?

Answer:
The Codex Astartes REQUIRES the use of tactical dreadnought armour when bordering space hulks. It´s SOP (standard operating procedure). To insinuate that there is another valid approach to the task at hand is HERESY. Don´t be a free-thinker but a humble servant of the Imperium. Oh and just by the way, don´t leave your city. The local Adeptus Arbites want to have a word with you in their interrogation chambers...

 Pacific wrote:
A half-joking thread here. After spending a bit of time playing Space Hulk recently, why do marines bother to wear Terminator armour when boarding Space Hulks?
- As represented in the rules, the vast majority of the time a 'Stealer gets into melee with a marine, the marine is toast. If the 'Stealers claws 'cut through adamantium and ceramite like tissue paper' (this is repeated in the lore at least once every paragraph) what benefit is there to having super thick armour? May as well be just in a pair of boxer shorts.

Welcome to Warf syndrome. When you turn around, you can apologize to the Tyranid player behind you that's feeling sad that their elite melee troop is getting reduced to the role of expendable swarm trooper, by the way.

I'm pretty sure the White Dwarf issues surrounding the original edition of the game included scenarios which had Chaos Renegades (they certainly had traitor terminators and those weapons in a follow up issue), to demonstrate how much worse regular power armor vs. a genestealer is in that situation. (Back in the days when an active game company put extra content for its board games in its trade magazine...)

- Terminator armour vastly restrict movement and slows the Marine down significantly. This compounds lack of maneuverability against an agile foe; even if not in just underwear, at least wear armour that allows you step sideways?
- Terminator armour is so valued and irreplaceable, why risk it in an environment where it apparently has seemingly no value? It's basically the equivalent of asking the marines to walk around with Faberge eggs. They can't continue with the Space Hulk boarding because they then run out of funding.

Terminator armor is described as being adapted from power armor suits used in reactor maintenance. Like the other poster pointed out, that leaves the armor with the necessary macguffins for things like powering up sections of the hulk, that you can't do with regular armor.

I may have identified a central flaw in the concept of Space Hulk assaults. What are people's thoughts?

Immediate thought: You're a grown adult. Aren't you old enough to know better or remember the background material?

Terminator armor is void hardened, space marine armor can be punctured easily enough by the things found in space hulks that they would end up losing a lot of people to very minor things that a terminator can shrug off.

Terminators are just better in tight corridor fighting, and have better environmental protection.

A pebble moving at intrastellar speeds would poke a hole thru the armour and marine of anything lower tiered than TDA.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
As others have said, you never really know what you’re gonna get onboard a Space Hulk.

Whereas a Genestealer can carve apart Terminator Armour, most other nasties would struggle.

Though I for one would be well up for expanded Space Hulk. Imagine the good guy being Orks having to muster their forces to see off boarding Space Marines.

I mean, that'd be pretty fun ngl, could have rules too on building up your base, all the kff's and who can forget the in ship drag racing strips

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
As others have said, you never really know what you’re gonna get onboard a Space Hulk.

Whereas a Genestealer can carve apart Terminator Armour, most other nasties would struggle.

Though I for one would be well up for expanded Space Hulk. Imagine the good guy being Orks having to muster their forces to see off boarding Space Marines.

Yeah, while the classic trope is Terminators vs Genestealers, most of the time the stuff on a Space Hulk is going to be more pedestrian than genestealers.

Orks, crazy/heretical humans, mutants of any number of flavors, other xeno monstrosities, etc... are far more likely on a Space Hulk. But even then, Terminator armor is far better than normal power armor if you've got a genestealer after you. They can penetrate the armor, but it still offers some protection and allows for many other functions.

Because some of those hulks contain slaanesh marines and you don't want to give them any ideas.

shortymcnostrill wrote:
Because some of those hulks contain slaanesh marines and you don't want to give them any ideas.

Don't Click this LINK https://youtu.be/iik25wqIuFo

Not really adding owt to this thread specifically?

But more threads like this, please. I love my 40K background, but we can be too often a big Poe faced and super serial about it.

To ask an interesting question by couching it in some of sillier things seems to make for very interesting conversations!

Thanks mate!

Really interesting point someone made above (and I hadn't considered) was the rules for Power Armour in Space Hulk, when compared to Terminator Armour. If it's very unlikely a marine won't get snipped if they get melee'd when wearing Terminator, in Power Armour they stand almost no chance!

So it really just goes to reinforce how utterly deadly Genestealers are.

But that should do nothing to dispel the mental image of a bunch of guys that kind of look like gene-hanced John Cenas, dressed in their tidy whiteys, sprinting down the halls of the Space Hulk being chased by Genestealers