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I've seen claims of things that supposedly outsold Warhammer Fantasy all by themselves - I've seen it said that "Tactical Squads alone outsold Warhammer Fantasy", "The Space Marine range outsold Warhammer Fantasy" and even "Nuln Oil outsold Warhammer Fantasy". I've been entirely unable to find any sort of source or quote for these claims. Is there any proof to those specific claims or are they just the usual memes that get repeated without question despite being apocryphal?

My anecdotal evidence is that several GW staff have said independently that certain 40k factions outsold the entirety of WFB.

GW don't publish much (any) sales data IIRC, but the latest WD did say that the Tactical Marine Squad is the best selling kit, only being beaten one year by the Uruk-Hai kit.

There are bits and bobs that have been inferred or leaked over the years. But you won't find official, verifiable evidence of anything like that I don't think.

I'm sure that GW store managers have likely seen their local scene show a huge imbalance of sales, perhaps to the point where "Marines outsold Fantasy" etc...

Also we know that at some stage Marines made up something like 50% of GW's total sales. So yes we know that at some stage Marines did out sell fantasy - and every thing else.


That said as for specific sales figures, GW never releases them. We get general overall figures here and there, but we never see specific kits or armies or such (outside of the marines being insanely huge).


GW just do not see a need to publish such data for their shareholder meetings.

From my time as a till monkey?

40K was the bigger seller. But, our store had a pretty decent suite of Fantasy players.

And it will have varied store to store. The data will be out there somewhere, but we’ll never see it,

My anecdotal.

Warhammer stuff sat on our stores' shelves never moving for years. And years. And years.

GW Store manager claimed that he made more in one month off of 40k than he did combined on warhammer fantasy for 3 years.

Now - the thing was we had a ton of fantasy players playing. But no one was buying new models... for retail. Before AOS dropped I was able to score a ton of Tomb Kings boxes that sat there for about five years because no one wanted to buy the boxes (because of price and largely because Tomb Kings had rotten putrid rules ... amazing what you can do if your rules don't suck how that helps sales)

Because they (the players) didn't have to buy anything at GW prices.

The 3rd party market for models was absolutely glutted. Why pay $500-$800 for a new army when you could get that same army off ebay or by someone in the community for $150 - $200? Or just pick up a perry miniatures line army that was super cheap and worked just as well. You had substitutions and options that were valid that you don't have in 40k.

That was the big problem for warhammer sales. And it wasn't that we had no new players. Every campaign season we always had between 3 or 4 new players who bought new armies. Just not retail.

Not that no one was playing. I posted pictures in here before of our 2014 campaign where we had over 30 players on one table in one of our malls surrounded by about 100 people watching taking pictures because it was a spectacle.

We always had great event turnout. Our 40k event turn out was always a bit more but when you can year after year get 24-30 campaign players for the annual campaign that spanned a few months to play, you canj't say the community was dead or not playing the game.

But none of the game stores could sell any of it because there was no need to buy it retail when you could just pop on ebay and get it for 1/8 of the cost or so.

Or just use historical models that were also vastly cheaper.

The move to sigmar was to enlarge the scale, and make it so those cheap historicals were no longer really valid to use.

Which is odd when you consider most of AoS IS Old World models and that the market is WAY more flooded with alternative sculpts today than it was 10 years ago

 Overread wrote:
I'm sure that GW store managers have likely seen their local scene show a huge imbalance of sales, perhaps to the point where "Marines outsold Fantasy" etc...

Also we know that at some stage Marines made up something like 50% of GW's total sales. So yes we know that at some stage Marines did out sell fantasy - and every thing else.

How do we know that?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I'm sure that GW store managers have likely seen their local scene show a huge imbalance of sales, perhaps to the point where "Marines outsold Fantasy" etc...

Also we know that at some stage Marines made up something like 50% of GW's total sales. So yes we know that at some stage Marines did out sell fantasy - and every thing else.

How do we know that?

I've a feeling it was mentioned in at least one of the shareholder meetings during the Kirby era

 Overread wrote:
Which is odd when you consider most of AoS IS Old World models and that the market is WAY more flooded with alternative sculpts today than it was 10 years ago

Most of AOS when I was playing was not the old world models. It was all the new stuff. Meaning the players that were playing AOS weren't really fielding old models by and large (there were a couple, like the lizardmen players for example, but typically any of the guys playing were using the newer factions and newer models)

I have never seen AOS played with alternate sculpts before. I acknowledge that with 3d printing, things have turned into an alternate sculpt wonderland - but where I was before and where I am now, the AOS games I see on a regular are all solidly AOS sculpts and not old world sculpts or 3d print models.

Again anecdotal. We can't really touch on the true data sadly.

My gut tells me had WHFB had a ton of new sculpts added, had stormcast been a sigmarite sub faction of the empire, etc... that it would have sold just as well using the whfb ruleset as it did with what came afterward. There was a drought of new models in that late 8th edition period that played a role. A drought of new models and new content. New army books were rare and then when they did have new material, it often was just not that good. If the rules are just not that good, you aren't going to get a lot of people buying into it.

All of those things contribute to retaining interest in having people buy your stuff.

Im active playing AoS now, I've never seen a 3d printed model being played locally, and the vast majority of models that are being fielded locally were sculpted specifically for AoS rather than holdovers from WHFB.

So based on the replies so far, the specific claims like "Nuln oil outsold WHF" are just the usual unsourced memes that have been repeated so, so often that people just take them as fact despite not being a proven thing. Thought it might have been something like that.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
So based on the replies so far, the specific claims like "Nuln oil outsold WHF" are just the usual unsourced memes that have been repeated so, so often that people just take them as fact despite not being a proven thing. Thought it might have been something like that.

The only sales figures I recall was back during the Chapterhouse case when GW had to release some sales figures to the courts. I have no idea where you'll find that information now, but as far as I'm aware it's the only time GW has released sales figures with some sort of breakdown. I don't recall if there was any info regarding individual boxed sets, I don't think so, but I do recall it showed how GW's sales are pretty much driven by new releases. A product spikes in sales at release then peters out by the next year to a trickle. At least that's my memory, it was a while ago now.

Anything beyond that is just people pulling stuff out of their arses. At best anecdotal evidence from a local store, but we know that table top game popularity tends to be regional, so one store or even a couple of stores is hardly enough info to form a picture.

Recently we had discussions on Dakka regarding how WHFB was "typically" played, but I know no one in my area who played it what was apparently the "typical" way. So yeah, regional trends are just that, regional.

 auticus wrote:

I have never seen AOS played with alternate sculpts before.

The next time I field my undead 1/2lings by TTC, I'll have to remember to take pics. Maybe even film it. Won't be the same as seeing it in person, but....
The only GW pieces present are an ages old Black Coach (metal) & a Plague Cart that's likely older than most reading this.

ccs wrote:

 auticus wrote:

I have never seen AOS played with alternate sculpts before.

The next time I field my undead 1/2lings by TTC, I'll have to remember to take pics. Maybe even film it. Won't be the same as seeing it in person, but....
The only GW pieces present are an ages old Black Coach (metal) & a Plague Cart that's likely older than most reading this.

I don't watch AoS games so I have no idea the popularity, but I've definitely spoken to folks who have used 3D printed forces for AoS (either printed themselves or bought from a 3rd party printer).

That is specifically why I explicitly typed this part in my response:

Again anecdotal. We can't really touch on the true data sadly.

I'm sure there are people that do.

 auticus wrote:
That is specifically why I explicitly typed this part in my response:

Again anecdotal. We can't really touch on the true data sadly.

I'm sure there are people that do.

Oh hey, look, I said the same thing in my post...

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
At best anecdotal evidence from a local store, but we know that table top game popularity tends to be regional, so one store or even a couple of stores is hardly enough info to form a picture.

Obviously what you said was anecdotal, and what we said is anecdotal, and although it's not real data it helps to have two sides of an anecdotal coin to confirm what one person sees is not necessarily representative of the norm.

FWIW I don't see many AoS games at all, granted I don't seek them out so maybe there's a big community of AoS players I don't know about, but at the local gaming place I see a lot of 40k, kill team, blood bowl, and lots of scattered non-GW games. Pre-covid I'd see a bit of WHFB alternatives scattered through the various alternative rule sets, but I haven't been down there much post-covid to see if it's still a thing. One of my local stores even carried a big stock of loose square bases for people buying "AoS" models to use in WHFB. But of the people I do know that collect AoS armies, I know a couple who use alternate models.

 Stux wrote:
There are bits and bobs that have been inferred or leaked over the years. But you won't find official, verifiable evidence of anything like that I don't think.

There are verifiable pieces of (literal) evidence buried in the Chapterhouse transcripts (no idea where, they are hundreds of pages long), one of the examples certainly used was the High Elf spearmen box and GW, under oath had to say how many of them they shifted.

 auticus wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Which is odd when you consider most of AoS IS Old World models and that the market is WAY more flooded with alternative sculpts today than it was 10 years ago

Most of AOS when I was playing was not the old world models. It was all the new stuff. Meaning the players that were playing AOS weren't really fielding old models by and large (there were a couple, like the lizardmen players for example, but typically any of the guys playing were using the newer factions and newer models)

I have never seen AOS played with alternate sculpts before. I acknowledge that with 3d printing, things have turned into an alternate sculpt wonderland - but where I was before and where I am now, the AOS games I see on a regular are all solidly AOS sculpts and not old world sculpts or 3d print models.

Again anecdotal. We can't really touch on the true data sadly.

I've seen a good amount of historical proxied/3D printed Cities of Sigmar and Daemon stuff, but that's about it. I doubt it's a coincidence those are the among armies you can take mostly intact from Fantasy or proxy from other companies.

Funnily enough I see 3D printed Sigmarine bits a fair amount, but I've never seen a 100% printed or proxied Sigmarine.

I do wonder how much of it is because if you're in a position to play with non-GW products, you're probably playing a different (better) fantasy system already whilst those who're glued to the GW Party Line and won't think about touching anything else will never dream of NOT using an official GW-approved kit.

There was this...

http://www.thefieldsofblood.com/2013/04/the-sales-life-of-warhammer-rules.html

I thought there was some more detailed stuff also, but I haven't been able to find it. I can't find reference to the exhibit number in the court case, perhaps if that could be found someone could ask the courts for a copy (though it might cost something, and I dunno if they hand that out to just anyone).

But that data would suggest Codex Space Marines sold more than the WHFB rules book, BUT, I'd caution reading too much into that because...

1. I believe that's only USA data, and it's long been suggested that WHFB was always less popular in the USA.

2. That would be the 7th edition rulebook, I seem to recall that 7th edition was when they had the deal that if you bought a 6th edition rulebook or boxed set, they'd give you the 7th edition one when it came out. A friend and me split the Orcs/Empire boxed set in order to get the 7th edition book for "free".

3. I think some people just used the rulebook that came with Skull Pass rather than buying the big rulebook separately.

Given the sales of The Empire and High Elves books, it's hard to believe so few copies of the rulebook were shifted.

Given the sales of The Empire and High Elves books, it's hard to believe so few copies of the rulebook were shifted.

I posted that a lot of people still played regularly above, but to respond to this in particular, very few actually owned the big rulebook. Most were running with the skull pass boxed set rulebook or were running with pirated pdf scans of the rulebook (or xerox skull pass boxed set rulebook). Very few also owned their army book... it was using the apps to build their army that was popular and if "army builder said I could" then that was just as good as having the rulebook to a lot of those players.

About the only time I ever saw books actually move was the End Times books. Those were gone before they even hit the shelves, but I think a lot of that were scalpers milking ebay because there was a false scarcity for those books and people were paying mint to get their hands on them.

Even the AOS books (before they started making them rulebooks again) hardly ever moved.

Ah yes, that would have been the era of Army Builder. Even ignoring Army Builder and piracy, I had 3 copies of the 7th ed rulebook without ever specifically buying a rulebook (bought 2x sets of skull pass and got a free rulebook for buying a 6th ed boxed set right before 7th came out).

One of the court summaries noted "GW has produced a *30 spreadsheet containing the names of each product bearing the mark that Chapterhouse allegedly infringed and listing the annual amount of sales for that product from 2004 until the present."

I don't know if the *30 means the exhibit number (I don't think so, as that's usually listed as Ex. A. XXXX where XXXX is the number), or is it the number of pages, or maybe the number of items (the table in the link in my previous post only had 16 entries).

EDIT: Actually, *30 probably just means page number of the PDF it was extracted from, doh!

 Overread wrote:
I'm sure that GW store managers have likely seen their local scene show a huge imbalance of sales, perhaps to the point where "Marines outsold Fantasy" etc...

Also we know that at some stage Marines made up something like 50% of GW's total sales. So yes we know that at some stage Marines did out sell fantasy - and every thing else.

It also depends heavily on the area. When I lived in Alabama, nobody played anything but 40k. My current local Warhammer in Florida has a ton of people playing Necromunda and AoS but not a lot of 40k.

 Toofast wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I'm sure that GW store managers have likely seen their local scene show a huge imbalance of sales, perhaps to the point where "Marines outsold Fantasy" etc...

Also we know that at some stage Marines made up something like 50% of GW's total sales. So yes we know that at some stage Marines did out sell fantasy - and every thing else.

It also depends heavily on the area. When I lived in Alabama, nobody played anything but 40k. My current local Warhammer in Florida has a ton of people playing Necromunda and AoS but not a lot of 40k.

I'm in a large city in northern England and we've had a huge shift in the last couple of years in our local scene.

Its gone from predominantly 40k with a couple of AoS players to very few people interested in 40k but AoS has grown loads. People who play in my LGS seem highly disillusioned with 40k at the moment, with the perception that it is overly lethal and overly bloated, and that the level of imbalance between old and new books is far too high.

Whilst there's an acknowledgement that AoS has its own issues, the general feeling is that's generally a much more enjoyable game.

I think one thing AoS has going for it right now is a LOT of fresh models and ideas. They are clearly getting a lions share of creative output right now and it kind of shows how the designers are a bit more free.

40K gets some good updates; but right now its more of the "Same old" for most of the armies. Even the big Necron update was more similar styled models - very cool stuff - but more of the same ethos. Meanwhile the Eldar are only just getting updated with revised sculpts.


I feel that 40K could do with a "Oh the Imperium Broke here's a few minor factions who are now major" happening just to shake the creativity up.

I have a feeling if they keep on with the creative models and energy into their fantasy line that the Old World will be just as successful of a project.

I get the impression that's exactly the opposite of what a lot of people want from the old world. They want it back as fantasy and then not deviate at all. Just look at the outrage going on in the old world thread concerning ice witches when the concept art was shown. Or the obsession over bears right now. The (loud) majority don't seem to want anything new at all.

I'm seeing that noise too but I'm also seeing a lot of people interested in the old GAME and rank and flank coming back, but are hyped for new models and new factions.

The total warhammer groups I am in have that positive message in it quite regularly.

I think that the people screaming to keep it the same are not going to be having a good day upon release lol and I think that their screaming isn't going to matter much in the end.

There are always oldhammer groups in abundance that they can keep playing their older editions in.

My observation of five gaming scenes over the past twenty-five years as I moved around is that 40K was king, while Fantasy had a smaller but very loyal base. It was harder to break into Fantasy than it was to get into 40K. Again, this is just my observation.

If you look at the main Fantasy lines you see what are essentially Tolkien tropes with medieval German vibes for the humans plus 100 Years War knights. All very easy for other miniature companies to produce without fear - which they did. AOS minis are much more distinct, and the game play is a little more inviting for 1000 point games.

Anyhoo.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 auticus wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Which is odd when you consider most of AoS IS Old World models and that the market is WAY more flooded with alternative sculpts today than it was 10 years ago

Most of AOS when I was playing was not the old world models. It was all the new stuff. Meaning the players that were playing AOS weren't really fielding old models by and large (there were a couple, like the lizardmen players for example, but typically any of the guys playing were using the newer factions and newer models)

I have never seen AOS played with alternate sculpts before. I acknowledge that with 3d printing, things have turned into an alternate sculpt wonderland - but where I was before and where I am now, the AOS games I see on a regular are all solidly AOS sculpts and not old world sculpts or 3d print models.

Again anecdotal. We can't really touch on the true data sadly.

I've seen a good amount of historical proxied/3D printed Cities of Sigmar and Daemon stuff, but that's about it. I doubt it's a coincidence those are the among armies you can take mostly intact from Fantasy or proxy from other companies.

Funnily enough I see 3D printed Sigmarine bits a fair amount, but I've never seen a 100% printed or proxied Sigmarine.

I do wonder how much of it is because if you're in a position to play with non-GW products, you're probably playing a different (better) fantasy system already whilst those who're glued to the GW Party Line and won't think about touching anything else will never dream of NOT using an official GW-approved kit.

You wanna shill things sooo bad. Dude, just say what things things you think everybody should be playing instead. You're already a corporate sellout, quit vague-posting about it.