Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The ability to add AM units to GSC is a good idea from GW in my opinion and is a nice (and unusual) thematic touch. If I played GSC I think it would be really fun to create my detachment of enthralled PDF

Do you think this is setting the standard for cultists in CSM armies. Perhaps with a some spikes available via an upgrade sprue if you really want to keep the GW chaos theme alive.

The wording makes me think that people going crazy now are going to be sorely disappointed whenever the Guard book gets updated.

brood brothers is a rule that existed since GSC was revived as an army in 7th (?).

It's not dissimilar to how the Brood Brothers detachment works in the current codex.

It's neither new nor has it informed Chaos before today.

And it's still the same boring gak as currently.

From the reveal on WHC the Brood Brothers appear to be a step down from their various previous incarnations. There were a few changes in 8th regarding how AM were integrated in GSC armies, but they were there from the start. This upcoming one is much more restricted. Not a bad thing. Perhaps they are thinking that if you want to play AM with all the Regimental bells and whistles you can go ahead and play AM?

Sunny Side Up wrote:
brood brothers is a rule that existed since GSC was revived as an army in 7th (?).

It's not dissimilar to how the Brood Brothers detachment works in the current codex.

It's neither new nor has it informed Chaos before today.

Oh I didn’t know this, the article makes it sound like a new thing

It does show that gw is still willing to write rules allowing you to take (X) units from another codex. That's how the old LatD list allowed you to take Guard vehicles in a LatD army, and it's how the current R&H Legends list allows you to do it as well. It could explain why CSM are supposed to get all of those "mortal" units according to the rumordump: those are the infantry for a LatD list, and the vehicles could come from the Guard codex.

lol, because Lost and the Damned really matters right?

Seriously. Don't read anything into what that list had. The Cadian Shock Troop list had you consult C: IG too at the time. That's how supplemental lists were done.

Brood Brothers ain't new and as interesting as it would be, there's not going to be a LatD/R&H GW Codex this Edition.
GSC work because they can meld the human, half-breed, and full Genestealers into one list while keeping the look and feel of the units unique. I would love to see the R&H army reimagined and reinvigorated with new kits but it would step on a lot of toes with regards to how both GSC and AM work as armies. I don't think there's really a middle ground between the two that wouldn't just be served better by playing either of those two Codexes.

Also, I definitely wouldn't expect this to be the route forward for Chaos since the back of the upcoming Vigilus content apparently namedrops "Chaos Cultists" as a faction.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Also, I definitely wouldn't expect this to be the route forward for Chaos since the back of the upcoming Vigilus content apparently namedrops "Chaos Cultists" as a faction.

Are you sure it's a faction though?

Because it could be the updated data card for Cultists, maybe a new data card for a Cultist HQ... And rules for using looted/ corrupted IG tanks. And rather than being a "faction" it's just what gets added to the Chaos dex to come.

Don't get me wrong- a full on book for mortal followers would be sweet, and my personal preference- they'd have their own bespoke Crusade content and so forth.

We likely won't have to wait too long to find out. Wouldn't be surprised if the first Nachmund book is up for preorder by the last week in January- first of February. Any longer and it'll be harder for GW to slam two campaign books into the Nachmund season.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Also, I definitely wouldn't expect this to be the route forward for Chaos since the back of the upcoming Vigilus content apparently namedrops "Chaos Cultists" as a faction.

Yeah, I saw that too. Which is what leads me to believe we'll get something for a LatD/R&H style force. Maybe in the CSM codex, or in Vigilus Alone, or their own codex. Any one of those would work for me.

mrFickle wrote:
The ability to add AM units to GSC is a good idea from GW in my opinion and is a nice (and unusual) thematic touch. If I played GSC I think it would be really fun to create my detachment of enthralled PDF

Do you think this is setting the standard for cultists in CSM armies. Perhaps with a some spikes available via an upgrade sprue if you really want to keep the GW chaos theme alive.

Why are you surprised? GSC could already do this. GW nerfed them in this codex.

 Kanluwen wrote:
lol, because Lost and the Damned really matters right?

Well, yes - LatD (or R&H) make up the vast majority of non-Daemon Chaos forces, numerically. They should be an army in the game, more than several other armies that currently are represented.

Army available as a model range in the game and relative numbers in the fictional background don't have to correlate.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Army available as a model range in the game and relative numbers in the fictional background don't have to correlate.

They had models aswell.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Army available as a model range in the game and relative numbers in the fictional background don't have to correlate.

They had models aswell.

Aye, and rules. Twice. And according to the so far very accurate rumordump, more models that fit the faction are on the way.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Army available as a model range in the game and relative numbers in the fictional background don't have to correlate.

They had models aswell.

Aye, and rules. Twice. And according to the so far very accurate rumordump, more models that fit the faction are on the way.

They've had rules way more than just twice.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Army available as a model range in the game and relative numbers in the fictional background don't have to correlate.

They had models aswell.

Aye, and rules. Twice. And according to the so far very accurate rumordump, more models that fit the faction are on the way.

They've had rules way more than just twice.

Eh, I didn't want to get into arguments about "what counted", so I was just referring to the LatD list in EOT and the R&H rules in IA13. There's also the Cultist Army list in the 2nd edition Chaos Codex, and what little we got in 8th. Not sure about RT? Vraks?

 Kanluwen wrote:
lol, because Lost and the Damned really matters right?

If you played 'em you wouldn't be saying that.

What's a little unusual about GSC is that they can take certain units of Brood Brothers in their Cult detachments, and/or take a full detachment of rebadged AM. Now, in 9th, that will cost command points, while in 8th extra detachments added command points. Also, Brood Brothers is now restricted to <regiment> units, which is most but certainly not all of the units in the guard book. Abhumans, psykers, commissars, techpriests, fliers, and anything miltarum tempestus are now excluded.

Overall, I think this is a specific rule for a specific interaction: Cults do sort of take over PDFs, and bring them onboard wholesale. I never loved that they could indoctrinate commissars, but whatever.

Stuff like LOTD and traitor guard are different. LOTD and cultists and mutants all should have their own data sheets, and if anything, should be closer to GSC proper than to Brood Brothers. Traitor guard could just use AM rules with a different regiment, but as we've seen, GW loves making special rules for all things chaos.

Frankly, I never understood why they didn't do traitor guard this way. It would make perfect sense. 40K chaos is so one dimensional. In the fiction most of the chaos worshippers are normal humans, but on the tabletop it is just marines and more marines and perhaps some daemons sometimes. This would be an easy way to fix that.

mrFickle wrote:
The ability to add AM units to GSC is a good idea from GW in my opinion and is a nice (and unusual) thematic touch. If I played GSC I think it would be really fun to create my detachment of enthralled PDF

Do you think this is setting the standard for cultists in CSM armies. Perhaps with a some spikes available via an upgrade sprue if you really want to keep the GW chaos theme alive.

Brood Brothers is not a new ability for GSC, they had it in the previous edition as well. Based on that - no, I doubt that its setting any expectation or standard for cultists in CSM or anything else. The Death Guard and Thousand Sons books have already set the standard and expectations for cultists in CSM.

 Gert wrote:
Brood Brothers ain't new and as interesting as it would be, there's not going to be a LatD/R&H GW Codex this Edition.
GSC work because they can meld the human, half-breed, and full Genestealers into one list while keeping the look and feel of the units unique. I would love to see the R&H army reimagined and reinvigorated with new kits but it would step on a lot of toes with regards to how both GSC and AM work as armies. I don't think there's really a middle ground between the two that wouldn't just be served better by playing either of those two Codexes.

Eh, not really. GSC is xenos, IG is loyalist. A traitor Guard codex would be limited to chaos and would open a lot of options for chaos forces. Also, theyre supposed to be the most common chaos faction to run into in the lore as far as a proper army is concerned. Only cultists are more common than traitor guard proper and I think itd be a no brainer to have cultists included with a renegade/traitor IG force. The fact that traitor IG is still not a plastic army when GSC has its own plastic range is pretty baffling to me. If we were in the days of 6th-7th where you could ally IG with chaos Id understanding not needing a traitor guard book, but as 9th sits it really should be the next new army to be released.

Sell a couple of chaos vehicle upgrade sprues, make some traitor infantry upgrade sprues and 80-90% of the guard codex is good to go. You just add a few new units like a darkmech priest, some sort of daemon engine/tank, and something fun like possessed ogryns and beastmen. Then sprinkle in a few chaos marine options like a chaos marine lord, sorceror, possessed, and maybe some of the daemon engines, and you have the makings of a pretty fleshed out codex.

100% agreement mrmoustaffa, the original LATD was basically marines and prepackaged bits combos, really minimal effort.

Between already-statted Blackstone releases (IIRC 4 troops choices, 1 HQ, 4 elite... though sprue breakdown might be awkward without weird revisions), cultists, the IG line, existing designs for traitor units, etc, it could take a real bare minimum of effort to have a functioning army. A GSC-style upgrade sprue and some re-releases could be the entire plastic commitment, and the rules have a lot of precedents to work from.

Also yes, GSC are enjoyable and I'm happy that they fleshed out that theme/corner of the lore but it's bizarre that human/rabble chaos forces don't have any still-supported in-game representation other than the single old cultist sprue.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Eh, not really. GSC is xenos, IG is loyalist. A traitor Guard codex would be limited to chaos and would open a lot of options for chaos forces. Also, theyre supposed to be the most common chaos faction to run into in the lore as far as a proper army is concerned. Only cultists are more common than traitor guard proper and I think itd be a no brainer to have cultists included with a renegade/traitor IG force. The fact that traitor IG is still not a plastic army when GSC has its own plastic range is pretty baffling to me. If we were in the days of 6th-7th where you could ally IG with chaos Id understanding not needing a traitor guard book, but as 9th sits it really should be the next new army to be released.

Sell a couple of chaos vehicle upgrade sprues, make some traitor infantry upgrade sprues and 80-90% of the guard codex is good to go. You just add a few new units like a darkmech priest, some sort of daemon engine/tank, and something fun like possessed ogryns and beastmen.

Ok, but how are they going to play differently? That's what my point was in that bit you replied to.
How would a Traitor Guard/R&H army work mechanically in a way that is different from both GSC and AM? GSC has Cult Ambush and Crossfire mechanics that encourage you to take lots of cheap chaff to surround your enemies and they feature a lot of buffing units that act as lynchpins of the Cult, such as the Nexos and Magus, alongside more combat-oriented "assassin" units, like the Kelermorph or Sanctus.
AM is all about having lots of things, whether it be infantry, tanks, or artillery. Strategies (from my experience) revolve around superior firepower and having enough bodies to take a hit and still keep going.
What would Traitor Guard/R&H do that wouldn't just be copies or an inferior mix of either of these Codexes?

Then sprinkle in a few chaos marine options like a chaos marine lord, sorceror, possessed, and maybe some of the daemon engines, and you have the makings of a pretty fleshed out codex.

Adding in CSM units doesn't flesh out the Codex, it just adds in stuff that won't interact in any way making them worthless.

Astra Militarum isn't "about" anything anymore. They're a NPC faction and have been for at least a decade.

I cant see how traitor guard would tread on any more toes than the dozen or so different flavors of marines we have, plus the line being redone in primaris. Thanks to primaris there are instances where there are 6 or more units all competing to do the same job in each of the marine codexes.

Chaos specifically doesnt really have a proper horde army that shoots. Chaos doesnt have an army that heavily leans into vehicles aside from knights which are superheavies. Chaos doesnt really have an army that embraces those lower level servants and their expendable nature in the eyes of the gods as a core of the army. We've got nurgle zombies and occasionally cultist spam but even those still have big marine or daemon units as the focus of the army. It doesnt matter if it treads on loyalist IG or GSC because its chaos.

You can also increase diversity by bundling in darkmech with it. So its niche becomes this melting pot of a codex for all of the lost and the damned that arent full chaos marine warbands or hordes of daemons. Lean really heavy into their fanatical and expendable nature. Give them lots of sacrificial mechanics where they can sacrifice units to buff others, such as a Chaos sorceror killing d6 models from a unit to buff his casting ability, or a chaos techpriest dealing MW to a unit and using that number to repair a friendly. Have gods like khorne give the army bonuses based on how many models have died in the game. Allow vehicles to be daemonically possessed, so you can see stuff like possessed Russes or Hellhounds. Have chaos marine characters that interact with your rabble by executing or sacrificing cultists to raise LD for the turn or buff their fighting ability. Sacrifice models to summon daemons. Have them do daemonic rituals as secondaries. Its chaos, if you cant come up with ways to make them play differently than base IG even while using a major chunk of their range I dont know what to tell you other than you need to read more black library IG books.

I did get to the end of the Brood Brothers word salad and hit the 25% maximum and just laughed.

Why not have proper allies rules at this point?

 Gert wrote:

Ok, but how are they going to play differently? That's what my point was in that bit you replied to.

How would a Traitor Guard/R&H army work mechanically in a way that is different from both GSC and AM?

For starters, access to Chaos Marks (which of course, have to be made meaningful first), boons, and psychic powers. I would say possession and summoning are possibilities as well. As mentioned elsewhere, this is a heck of a diverse force, so you could really lean into the traitor guard angle, and if you did, yeah, you'd play close to guard. But you could also load up on rogue psykers and daemon summoners. Or you could lean into Chaos Ogryn and Beastmen.

You're right that there's a challenge in looking for a sort of "custom mechanic" like crossfire or Ka'tahs or whatever. Part of the reason for that is the diversity of the army. Many of these things will be shared with other chaos forces- summoning and possession, for example. Another possibility as that the army purity rules are relaxed among the various types of chaos. So in an onslaught game where you can take up to 4 detachments, you could take CSM + R/H + Daemons + Chaos Knights and each detachment keeps its purity rule. In smaller games, any combination of 2 or 3 of the four.

There's also a lot that can be done with unit selection and the various bespoke content- WL Traits, strats and relics.