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So if Valoris takes the plus 2 wounds trait, does he then lose character and become a vehicle/monster? Since GW came out and said anything 10 wounds or over is a vehicle/monster and can be shot normally. Or does his "character keyword" still protect him? Honestly confused on what to do with a 10 wound Trajann.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/DeU8mXJ2t1gBPVsd.jpg

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So if Valoris takes the plus 2 wounds trait, does he then lose character and become a vehicle/monster? Since GW came out and said anything 10 wounds or over is a vehicle/monster and can be shot normally. Or does his "character keyword" still protect him? Honestly confused on what to do with a 10 wound Trajann.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/DeU8mXJ2t1gBPVsd.jpg

Doesn't Trajann have pre-assigned WT, making this moot?

Also, general rules say Look Out, Sir doesn't apply if you have more than 9W regardless of other keywords.

Audustum wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
fair enough, I didnt get in a game in 9th yet. T'was all 8th. So some things should change.

I did math it out tho, the Thunderwolves, with all strats active, he still has a ~30% chance to wipe out 3 Custodians on the charge. The stasis oubliette could solve that, but then again, they're way faster, so he'll always dictate the terms of the engagement.

Also don't forget that he has several buffs he can apply for his to hit and to wound, so I'm not sure it would just play out like that. SW are a melee focused chapter after all and they have some nasty stratagems like +1 to wound and +1 to hit/+1A just if he gets off the charge (which, like I said, he has a good chance to).

I dont feel very confident, but I can try.
I'll probably use the list I posted early (I think on p10) which doesnt have a Galatus, but a Telemon and was specifically engineered to take on SW. I might switch around a bit. like Allarus instead of Aquilons, a bike captain instead of Trajann, maybe fit in 2 Galatus instead of the Telemon somehow.. Or keep the Telemon. 4D attacks is exactly what I need to deal with them, as each failed invul is a dead model. He'll kill 2-3 and then he's stuck in a fight phase where he loses his charge bonuses and will collapse.

You should be able to contest midfield against this list. Maybe you need more jetbikes. Remember, our Transhuman negates the +1 to wound entirely. Jetibikes also have 5W now which makes them fairly annoying to kill and they are very fast themselves. Unlike the TWC they can fly too.

I'd try that match up again with 2 3-man bike squads. I wouldn't take any Termies or Dreads till my bike quota was met.

This is agonizing
The codex is too good in internal balance. Getting a list up that gets close to the pts limit is.. difficult xD



What about this?
2x6 prosecs to hold the backline (or abandon them)
2x3 shield guard with a vexila and blade champ to walk up and take the midfield where his characters likely will be
2x3 jetbikes to take his and play catch with anything not fast enough

How low do you guys think we can go with pregame strats? All those relics and WLTs are so spicy...

Audustum wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So if Valoris takes the plus 2 wounds trait, does he then lose character and become a vehicle/monster? Since GW came out and said anything 10 wounds or over is a vehicle/monster and can be shot normally. Or does his "character keyword" still protect him? Honestly confused on what to do with a 10 wound Trajann.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/DeU8mXJ2t1gBPVsd.jpg

Doesn't Trajann have pre-assigned WT, making this moot?

Also, general rules say Look Out, Sir doesn't apply if you have more than 9W regardless of other keywords.

I could have sworn several reviewers have said he can take two traits. But I'm not finding it in the section. I could be entirely wrong. I just wanted to confirm, thank you.

 Thairne wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
fair enough, I didnt get in a game in 9th yet. T'was all 8th. So some things should change.

I did math it out tho, the Thunderwolves, with all strats active, he still has a ~30% chance to wipe out 3 Custodians on the charge. The stasis oubliette could solve that, but then again, they're way faster, so he'll always dictate the terms of the engagement.

Also don't forget that he has several buffs he can apply for his to hit and to wound, so I'm not sure it would just play out like that. SW are a melee focused chapter after all and they have some nasty stratagems like +1 to wound and +1 to hit/+1A just if he gets off the charge (which, like I said, he has a good chance to).

I dont feel very confident, but I can try.
I'll probably use the list I posted early (I think on p10) which doesnt have a Galatus, but a Telemon and was specifically engineered to take on SW. I might switch around a bit. like Allarus instead of Aquilons, a bike captain instead of Trajann, maybe fit in 2 Galatus instead of the Telemon somehow.. Or keep the Telemon. 4D attacks is exactly what I need to deal with them, as each failed invul is a dead model. He'll kill 2-3 and then he's stuck in a fight phase where he loses his charge bonuses and will collapse.

You should be able to contest midfield against this list. Maybe you need more jetbikes. Remember, our Transhuman negates the +1 to wound entirely. Jetibikes also have 5W now which makes them fairly annoying to kill and they are very fast themselves. Unlike the TWC they can fly too.

I'd try that match up again with 2 3-man bike squads. I wouldn't take any Termies or Dreads till my bike quota was met.

This is agonizing
The codex is too good in internal balance. Getting a list up that gets close to the pts limit is.. difficult xD

Spoiler:

+ HQ +

Blade Champion: (Shadowkeepers): Lockwarden, (Shadowkeepers): Statis Oubliette, Stratagem: The Emperor's Heroes

Shield-Captain in Allarus Terminator Armor: 3. Superior Creation, 4. Impregnable Mind, Castellan Axe, Defiant to the Last, Misericordia, Praetorian Plate, Stratagem: The Emperor's Heroes, Stratagem: Victor of the Blood Games

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike: 1. Master of Martial Strategy, Salvo Launcher, Tip of the Spear, Warlord

+ Troops +

Custodian Guard Squad
3x Custodian w/ Sentinel Blade & Praesidium Shield: 3x Praesidium Shield, 3x Sentinel Blade

Custodian Guard Squad
3x Custodian w/ Sentinel Blade & Praesidium Shield: 3x Praesidium Shield, 3x Sentinel Blade

Prosecutors: Prosecutor Sister Superior
5x Prosecutor: 5x Boltgun

Prosecutors: Prosecutor Sister Superior
5x Prosecutor: 5x Boltgun

+ Elites +

Vexilus Praetor: Castellan Axe, Vexilla Imperius

+ Fast Attack +

Vertus Praetors
3x Praetor w/ Salvo Launcher & Misericordia: 3x Interceptor Lance, 3x Misericordia, 3x Salvo Launcher

Vertus Praetors
3x Praetor w/ Salvo Launcher & Misericordia: 3x Interceptor Lance, 3x Misericordia, 3x Salvo Launcher

What about this?
2x6 prosecs to hold the backline (or abandon them)
2x3 shield guard with a vexila and blade champ to walk up and take the midfield where his characters likely will be
2x3 jetbikes to take his and play catch with anything not fast enough

How low do you guys think we can go with pregame strats? All those relics and WLTs are so spicy...

Just my opinion but the pregame strats are definitely worth it, especially for the extra warlord traits and double warlord trait. Our stratagems generally got cheaper for MSU units, so you should last quite some time.
This is also another reason why trajann is so amazing...he's such a force multiplier and beatstick and on top of all that he gives an extra CP and let's you farm CP on 5+. But I think your list still works without him.

Your list looks like fun and should work well against the space wolves. Remember that the bikes can also hunt thunder wolves with their Salvo launcher since they do min 4dmg, though I'd focus on shooting down the eradicators first since they are easier target to remove.

You mentioned the Telemon and you are correct, our chonky boy works great into the thunder wolves as well.

Also remember that we have a strat to let a unit make a heroic intervention, that way you can build a ball of death in the midfield and no matter what the thunder wolves charge, they'll get ganged up by a bunch of golden boys ready to ruin their day.
In this particular matchup Wardens could even be a cool niche pick. If you put your blade champ with the Stasis Oubilette in front of a squad of Wardens, they become unchargeable because any space wolves unit that charges into that has to fight last and dies and the enemy can't even remove the blade champion standing in front with their shooting because of the Wardens bodyguard rule.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Audustum wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So if Valoris takes the plus 2 wounds trait, does he then lose character and become a vehicle/monster? Since GW came out and said anything 10 wounds or over is a vehicle/monster and can be shot normally. Or does his "character keyword" still protect him? Honestly confused on what to do with a 10 wound Trajann.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/DeU8mXJ2t1gBPVsd.jpg

Doesn't Trajann have pre-assigned WT, making this moot?

Also, general rules say Look Out, Sir doesn't apply if you have more than 9W regardless of other keywords.

I could have sworn several reviewers have said he can take two traits. But I'm not finding it in the section. I could be entirely wrong. I just wanted to confirm, thank you.

He does get 2 but the second is also pre-selected. No flexibility for the leader of the 10,000!

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Audustum wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So if Valoris takes the plus 2 wounds trait, does he then lose character and become a vehicle/monster? Since GW came out and said anything 10 wounds or over is a vehicle/monster and can be shot normally. Or does his "character keyword" still protect him? Honestly confused on what to do with a 10 wound Trajann.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/DeU8mXJ2t1gBPVsd.jpg

Doesn't Trajann have pre-assigned WT, making this moot?

Also, general rules say Look Out, Sir doesn't apply if you have more than 9W regardless of other keywords.

I could have sworn several reviewers have said he can take two traits. But I'm not finding it in the section. I could be entirely wrong. I just wanted to confirm, thank you.

he does have two, both pre-assigned, and MUST be your warlord if he is on the field.

goonhammer's review mentions it. he takes Master of Martial Strategy (5+ CP regen), and Champion of the Imperium (6" heroic intervention and full re-rolls to hit)

 Thairne wrote:


This is agonizing
The codex is too good in internal balance. Getting a list up that gets close to the pts limit is.. difficult xD

Spoiler:

+ HQ +

Blade Champion: (Shadowkeepers): Lockwarden, (Shadowkeepers): Statis Oubliette, Stratagem: The Emperor's Heroes

Shield-Captain in Allarus Terminator Armor: 3. Superior Creation, 4. Impregnable Mind, Castellan Axe, Defiant to the Last, Misericordia, Praetorian Plate, Stratagem: The Emperor's Heroes, Stratagem: Victor of the Blood Games

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike: 1. Master of Martial Strategy, Salvo Launcher, Tip of the Spear, Warlord

+ Troops +

Custodian Guard Squad
3x Custodian w/ Sentinel Blade & Praesidium Shield: 3x Praesidium Shield, 3x Sentinel Blade

Custodian Guard Squad
3x Custodian w/ Sentinel Blade & Praesidium Shield: 3x Praesidium Shield, 3x Sentinel Blade

Prosecutors: Prosecutor Sister Superior
5x Prosecutor: 5x Boltgun

Prosecutors: Prosecutor Sister Superior
5x Prosecutor: 5x Boltgun

+ Elites +

Vexilus Praetor: Castellan Axe, Vexilla Imperius

+ Fast Attack +

Vertus Praetors
3x Praetor w/ Salvo Launcher & Misericordia: 3x Interceptor Lance, 3x Misericordia, 3x Salvo Launcher

Vertus Praetors
3x Praetor w/ Salvo Launcher & Misericordia: 3x Interceptor Lance, 3x Misericordia, 3x Salvo Launcher

What about this?
2x6 prosecs to hold the backline (or abandon them)
2x3 shield guard with a vexila and blade champ to walk up and take the midfield where his characters likely will be
2x3 jetbikes to take his and play catch with anything not fast enough

How low do you guys think we can go with pregame strats? All those relics and WLTs are so spicy...

This is a very well balanced list! I can give you notes from the competitive perspective on it:

1. We're still up in the air if it should be sword+board or Sag. Jack Harpster is taking Custodes to LVO and decided to run all Sag.

2. One or two jetbike squads is as 'meta' as it gets for us right now.

3. Jetbikes should aim to shoot the Eradicators and even the TWC if they get a clear view.

4. Prosecutors are fine for the backfield.

So now the question becomes: what secondaries are we looking for here?

1. You've got a good amount of infantry so Raise the Banners is an obvious standout.

2. I wouldn't recommend To the Last or Grind Them Down into SW. You're likely to both suffer casualties and you're a brawling list (or to borrow a MOBA term: a bruiser).

3. With the jetbikes in front and the Sisters in the back, Engage looks fairly safe and appetizing for you.

4. No Prisoners looks appealing because this will likely be a bloodbath. Assassinate is a good backup especially because you're Shadowkeepers. I'd say either is a good pick with a leaning towards Assassinate given your Shield Host.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And in case anyone is curious, here's Harpster's list which should be on BCP:

Trajann Valoris

Shield Captain on dawneagle- Auric Exemplar, superior creation, castellans mark, tip of the spear, salvo launcher, misericordia

3 sagittarum guard – misericordias

3 sagittarum guard – misericordias

5 prosecutors

5 voidsmen-at-arms

3 custodian wardens – axes

Contemptor-achillus – Lastrum Storm Bolters

Contemptor-achillus – Lastrum Storm Bolters

3 vertus praetors – salvo launchers

3 vertus praetors – salvo launchers

Caladius – Twin Arachnus Heavy Blaze Cannon

I'm seriously curious about those 3 wardens in harpsters list.

Tiberias wrote:

Just my opinion but the pregame strats are definitely worth it, especially for the extra warlord traits and double warlord trait. Our stratagems generally got cheaper for MSU units, so you should last quite some time.
This is also another reason why trajann is so amazing...he's such a force multiplier and beatstick and on top of all that he gives an extra CP and let's you farm CP on 5+. But I think your list still works without him.

Your list looks like fun and should work well against the space wolves. Remember that the bikes can also hunt thunder wolves with their Salvo launcher since they do min 4dmg, though I'd focus on shooting down the eradicators first since they are easier target to remove.

You mentioned the Telemon and you are correct, our chonky boy works great into the thunder wolves as well.

Also remember that we have a strat to let a unit make a heroic intervention, that way you can build a ball of death in the midfield and no matter what the thunder wolves charge, they'll get ganged up by a bunch of golden boys ready to ruin their day.
In this particular matchup Wardens could even be a cool niche pick. If you put your blade champ with the Stasis Oubilette in front of a squad of Wardens, they become unchargeable because any space wolves unit that charges into that has to fight last and dies and the enemy can't even remove the blade champion standing in front with their shooting because of the Wardens bodyguard rule.

So you'd go even deeper.
I admit, its very tempting. I might actually try out that gatekeeper... because getting into 12" is definately going to happen.
That still should give me around 13 (7+4 for rounds + 2 regened) CP all around to play with since I tagged the Bike Cap with the CP Regen.

The Warden trick is VERY nice. I'll need to keep that in mind for 2k lists. Especially if you can do the good, old LOS trick too.

Audustum wrote:
This is a very well balanced list! I can give you notes from the competitive perspective on it:

1. We're still up in the air if it should be sword+board or Sag. Jack Harpster is taking Custodes to LVO and decided to run all Sag.

2. One or two jetbike squads is as 'meta' as it gets for us right now.

3. Jetbikes should aim to shoot the Eradicators and even the TWC if they get a clear view.

4. Prosecutors are fine for the backfield.

So now the question becomes: what secondaries are we looking for here?

1. You've got a good amount of infantry so Raise the Banners is an obvious standout.

2. I wouldn't recommend To the Last or Grind Them Down into SW. You're likely to both suffer casualties and you're a brawling list (or to borrow a MOBA term: a bruiser).

3. With the jetbikes in front and the Sisters in the back, Engage looks fairly safe and appetizing for you.

4. No Prisoners looks appealing because this will likely be a bloodbath. Assassinate is a good backup especially because you're Shadowkeepers. I'd say either is a good pick with a leaning towards Assassinate given your Shield Host.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And in case anyone is curious, here's Harpster's list which should be on BCP:

Trajann Valoris

Shield Captain on dawneagle- Auric Exemplar, superior creation, castellans mark, tip of the spear, salvo launcher, misericordia

3 sagittarum guard – misericordias

3 sagittarum guard – misericordias

5 prosecutors

5 voidsmen-at-arms

3 custodian wardens – axes

Contemptor-achillus – Lastrum Storm Bolters

Contemptor-achillus – Lastrum Storm Bolters

3 vertus praetors – salvo launchers

3 vertus praetors – salvo launchers

Caladius – Twin Arachnus Heavy Blaze Cannon

Thanks!
I've been mulling over this list for hours now. And it changed to something completely different Well, mostly. You already noticed double Prosecco which is a FAR departure from my earlier argument
Sags seem to be general purpose, but in this case, I'm looking at the Praesidium Shield Wall strat as very valuable. It can take most SWs down to 3s from hitting on 2s if they charge or, even better, down to 4 or even 5.
So Raise, Engage and No Prisoners/Assassinate depending on the number of possible/likely scored VPs. Gotcha.

I'm really surprised to find only 2 HQs in Harpers list. Captain Yeetus is so tempting and flexible that I almost figured him an auto take. In this list though - I could actually see me replacing him with Trajann...
That would give each Squad an escorting character and a lot of added hitting power via Trajann. Also frees up a relic for Castellan's Mark. Hm.
The Voidsmen are an interesting pick. Presumably VERY cheap backfielders?

For melee armies, also remember you have Tanglefoot grenades. They can turn a sure-thing charge into a fail at any point.

I'm pretty new to the custodes and with the new codex i'm very hesitant what to put on my Allarus. What is the general consensus here? Spears or Axes?

Right now i bought myself:
- Trajann
- Shadow Throne
- Vertus Praetors
- Custodian Guard
- 2x Pyrithite Spears
- 2x Venatari Squad
- Telemon with a fist and Iliastus Culverin

I am waiting for the combat patrol to come out in order to get a second squad of guard and bikes, while also having enough sisters forever together with the Shadow throne box. Perhaps any tips on what would be nice to get next? I'm okay with forgeworld stuff as well.

there's no clear cut answer for that.
Spears have the better AP, but axes have the critical S8.
It all depends on what you're going against. Though personally, if you dont have the bits/dont magnetize, go with axes on Allarus as you can get spears on your troops.

Zphyre wrote:
I'm pretty new to the custodes and with the new codex i'm very hesitant what to put on my Allarus. What is the general consensus here? Spears or Axes?

Right now i bought myself:
- Trajann
- Shadow Throne
- Vertus Praetors
- Custodian Guard
- 2x Pyrithite Spears
- 2x Venatari Squad
- Telemon with a fist and Iliastus Culverin

I am waiting for the combat patrol to come out in order to get a second squad of guard and bikes, while also having enough sisters forever together with the Shadow throne box. Perhaps any tips on what would be nice to get next? I'm okay with forgeworld stuff as well.

1) terminators are hard to justify over wardens, even at 60 points The extra wound is slightly better than the 6+++, but only by a little. Grenade launches are fine, but these 2 things are probably not worth the 10 points+bodyguard rule wardens get.

2) that said ftm axes are the clear choice over spears. There’s no longer any meta relevant things which shuts down AP -2. On the other hand, ork ramshackle gets negated by S8, and S8 hits 3 important thresholds (wounds T8 on 4’s, T7 on 3’s, and T4 on 2’s). Tons of things also already get to their inv saves from AP -2 (2+/4++, 3+/5++, 5+, anyone with just an inv).

3) with that said wardens are a clear pickup for you. Them and some of the FW smaller dreads. 2 boxes of wardens goes a long way to shoring up your foot dude requirements.

always good to have some of both yes. If i take 3 single man allarus and an allarus cap, i always put 2 spears/2 axes (axe on the cap).

To the above poster asking about trajann: He cannot take Captain commander traits, and there is no +2 wound trait anymore to begin with.

Trajann gets his 2 locked in WL traits.

Thank you for all the responses. I thought the general idea with Wardens was that they are bad and that you should rather take custodian guard with a few shields and spears if you want to go for damage. I forgot to mention I also have 2 upgrade kits for Sagittarum. I was actually planning to get some wardens just to have the nice tabard thing for them. I actually DO plan to magnetize as much as possible. But the Allarus weapons seem to be too thin to magnetize at the part where you put the axe/spear part together on the weapon. Additional info: I also like to go for Solar Watch shield host.

So spears get the almighty +1 to wound strat still? Or did that go bye bye? It's sort of what always set spears over axes for me.

no more strats for the spears or axes, but since spears went to str7 its not as nessecary to do stuff.

We also have Rendax Ka'tah that gives +1str on the charge.

I had a chance to play with the new Codex against my friend's Nidzilla list last weekend before he heads off for some fun at LVO. Below is my army list, photos and general observations.





General Observations
-Using Katas are a lot easier than they are written and the abilities are very useful. I personally don't like stacking layers upon layers of rules, it ends up being one more thing you may end up forgetting. Callistas (Roll 2 Keep 1 Advance) is helpful Round 1, Kaptaris (rerolls) came into play a lot in Round 2.
-I still love playing Shadowkeepers, the reroll Wounds vs Characters was excellent! The -1 Attacks is powerful trait, well, as long as you don't forget about it like I did for a few turns
-Auric Mortalis is a great Secondary. Unfortunately for me, when I defeated my opponents highest cost model their gigantic base was 5.9" away from my deployment zone so I only got 8 out of 15 points.
-Our game was a bloodbath so To the Last earned me 0 points (my 4 man Guard Squad perished in the last turn of the game) but I'd still recommend it against most armies
-Losing the 3++ is rough, I had many games in 8th where Guard Squads would survive several salvos without a scratch. This game I was on the 4++ for about 70% of attacks. Against opponents with high AP high damage Melee weapons I don't think the Storm Shields are as worthwhile, Shooting on the other hand..
-I went with the +1 Attack banner for the Praetor since my opponent had very little shooting. Against other opponents I'd run the Light Cover banner with storm shields.
-The Achillus Dread has my favorite aesthetics in this army and was excellent fighting giant bugs. I do wish the Spear had longer range than 24" Shooting.
-Prosecutors are cheap Obsec which won me a lot of primary points
-The Knight Centura's WL trait of Silent Judge is extremely useful. In the future I plan on trying out Aleya with Vigilators but I was very impressed by Silent Judge
-While I got a chance to use the Creeping Dread stratagem (6" Aura for -1 Hit) I wish there was a better way to protect the Sisters of Silence that didn't involve such short range or a Rhino
-I was short on points and included a Vindicare Assassin. He was actually surprisingly helpful dealing with my opponents ObSec troops and nearly one shot my opponents Brood Lord. Of course the Heavy 1 Rifle did miss in the first round
-Tanglefoot grenade was the MVP stratagem for me this game. I'm also very happy that many of our stratagems have dropped down to 1 CP from 8th.

Playing Vs Nidzilla
-Great reason to go with Spears over Sword & Board. Several of the giant bugs were T6 or T7 and a S7 weapon would have been outstanding this game.
-D2 weapons are great vs Marine armies but man are they rough when most of my opponents army had -1 DMG. The Adrathic Destructors came in handy for this match.
-The Vault Blade with the highest Damage also allows rerolls for Wounds, unfortunately as Shadowkeepers I already had that benefit against characters and my Blade Champion was primarily fighting Characters
-Tyranids have a very useful Stratagem that allows them to many Mortal Wound after declaring a charge. My opponent used this to kill my Knight Centura (Round 1) and Blade Champion (Round 4)
-They also have another stratagem where my opponents warlord was able to melee me upon death which annihilated my Shield Captain on the Jetbike
-Last but not least be mindful of charging too many models into a foe. Tyranids have a stratagem that allow them to auto-succeed on the Explode roll and that dished out a total of 11 MW to several units.

Final score: 76 to 72

Zphyre wrote:
Thank you for all the responses. I thought the general idea with Wardens was that they are bad and that you should rather take custodian guard with a few shields and spears if you want to go for damage. I forgot to mention I also have 2 upgrade kits for Sagittarum. I was actually planning to get some wardens just to have the nice tabard thing for them. I actually DO plan to magnetize as much as possible. But the Allarus weapons seem to be too thin to magnetize at the part where you put the axe/spear part together on the weapon. Additional info: I also like to go for Solar Watch shield host.

Being 10 points cheaper is nice for the shield guardians, but the wardens get a lot for those 10 points. Shield guardians were better pre-codex for the 3++, but that going away kills them in this vs. 1st off Wardens are much better at offense. Getting an extra attack and better weapons matter a lot. Second 6+++ is so much better than the +1 armor save in meta where D3 weapons are common. Throw in bodyguard for some extra spice and you’re only ever taken shield guardians because you have to.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
no more strats for the spears or axes, but since spears went to str7 its not as nessecary to do stuff.

We also have Rendax Ka'tah that gives +1str on the charge.

But we still have the Slayers of Nightmares start.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
I had a chance to play with the new Codex against my friend's Nidzilla list last weekend before he heads off for some fun at LVO. Below is my army list, photos and general observations.

Thanks for the battle report. I agree in the current meta an Achillus is still really great, especially against Crusher Stampede and thicc city.

Question
How do we deal with SW strat of Keen Senses?
It ignores Tanglefoot, Praesidium Shield Wall and basically Emperor's auspice.
WLT gives extra attacks on the charge, so one is facing up to 15 S8 -2/-3 3D attacks that hit on a 2+ even with the Shadowkeepers trait.
AGA is useless, as on avg there's still enough wounds to wipe out a squad of custodians.

All that for one single CP that cancels out basically all defensive strats.

Edit:
Only idea I have is to redeploy the 2 units of bikes and hope to reduce them before they make the inevitable charge. But even then I can only take out 1, maybe 2 on avg. Maybe 3 if I can get Trajann for RR1s. I hate these things so fething much.

Edit2:
Took a good hot shower and had a think. I came to the conclusion that I am, again, working of the wrong doctrine, so to speak. I cannot stop him. That much is pretty set unless the dice gods love my face.
So, if I cannot stop him, I need to live with the fallout. So he makes the charge into a shield squad.I will HI either with Trajann or the Blade Wizard (who could fights last them, which is why I presume he will pivot to Trajann). He is very unlikely to kill either even at max strength (but in the case of Trajann, it might be REALLY close). That means if he wipes out the Guard Squad, ~300+ pts take out 150pts. Then the remainder will fight, be it a squad or Trajann/Blade Champ, killing the squad outright or cripple it. Not the ideal outcome, but in the end I'll have somethin sitting on a midfield objective on a pile of dead thunderwolves. It might still be a very good idea to dedicate a turn or two of shooting into them over the erads to make the odds better (if the erads are there in the first place, which I assume might not be).

 Thairne wrote:
Question
How do we deal with SW strat of Keen Senses?
It ignores Tanglefoot, Praesidium Shield Wall and basically Emperor's auspice.
WLT gives extra attacks on the charge, so one is facing up to 15 S8 -2/-3 3D attacks that hit on a 2+ even with the Shadowkeepers trait.
AGA is useless, as on avg there's still enough wounds to wipe out a squad of custodians.

All that for one single CP that cancels out basically all defensive strats.

Edit:
Only idea I have is to redeploy the 2 units of bikes and hope to reduce them before they make the inevitable charge. But even then I can only take out 1, maybe 2 on avg. Maybe 3 if I can get Trajann for RR1s. I hate these things so fething much.

Edit2:
Took a good hot shower and had a think. I came to the conclusion that I am, again, working of the wrong doctrine, so to speak. I cannot stop him. That much is pretty set unless the dice gods love my face.
So, if I cannot stop him, I need to live with the fallout. So he makes the charge into a shield squad.I will HI either with Trajann or the Blade Wizard (who could fights last them, which is why I presume he will pivot to Trajann). He is very unlikely to kill either even at max strength (but in the case of Trajann, it might be REALLY close). That means if he wipes out the Guard Squad, ~300+ pts take out 150pts. Then the remainder will fight, be it a squad or Trajann/Blade Champ, killing the squad outright or cripple it. Not the ideal outcome, but in the end I'll have somethin sitting on a midfield objective on a pile of dead thunderwolves. It might still be a very good idea to dedicate a turn or two of shooting into them over the erads to make the odds better (if the erads are there in the first place, which I assume might not be).

The blade champion has a 6" heroic intervention. So if you pay attention to your positioning, it should be really difficult for the thunderwolves to charge your stuff in the midfield without getting fight lasted by the Stasis Oubliette. If you manage to make the thunderwolves fight last, they'll either outright die (depending on what exactily is hitting them and what buffs are available like Trajann or banner) or get crippled so severely that they don't pose that much of a threat anymore.
He can manage to touch your stuff with the thunderwolves if your positioning is a bit off if he really strings them out after the charge and barely touches your stuff so that the Blade Champ is just out of heroic intervention range. That's why the Dacatarai Kata is so awsome, because if the goes for that strategy, he won't be able to get a meaningful number of wolves into combat with a 1" pile in.

True. Its a bit more advanced than I can probably pull iff (I'm pretty novice in playing melee armies) but I'll keep that in mind. I think he'll smell the bait though and swing over and into Trajann, because that is the more tempting target. If that gives me another turn of shooting - good for me! That solves the problem as well.
I dont know where he'll put the armour of russ though as that might counter the Stasis Oubliette.It's a mind game, but at least I have an inkling on how to deal with it though.

Thairn don’t take this the wrong way, but I think you’d benefit more from playing than anything else at this point. From my understanding keen senses only works doesn’t work on auspice at all, since it’s not a modifier. That with transhuman means we can at least get them wounding on 4’s with no re-rolls possible.

This leads me to my main point. I just don’t see space wolves as an army we need to worry about in a competitive sense. We outmuscle them in melee, especially shadowkeepers. Our bikes have more of threat range than any of their melee units due to fly, and combine with FW can outshoot them as well.

 Thairne wrote:
True. Its a bit more advanced than I can probably pull iff (I'm pretty novice in playing melee armies) but I'll keep that in mind. I think he'll smell the bait though and swing over and into Trajann, because that is the more tempting target. If that gives me another turn of shooting - good for me! That solves the problem as well.
I dont know where he'll put the armour of russ though as that might counter the Stasis Oubliette.It's a mind game, but at least I have an inkling on how to deal with it though.

Also remember that if he uses the Keen Senses stratagem, he has to do so in the shooting phase. So you know which unit you can't Tanglefoot in the charge phase....if he uses it on the thunderwolves, then you can tanglefoot the character who carries the armor of russ and vice versa. Which also means he can't stop you from using Tanglefoot in the movement phase, should the need or opportunity to do so arise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Salt donkey wrote:
Thairn don’t take this the wrong way, but I think you’d benefit more from playing than anything else at this point. From my understanding keen senses only works doesn’t work on auspice at all, since it’s not a modifier. That with transhuman means we can at least get them wounding on 4’s with no re-rolls possible.

This leads me to my main point. I just don’t see space wolves as an army we need to worry about in a competitive sense. We outmuscle them in melee, especially shadowkeepers. Our bikes have more of threat range than any of their melee units due to fly, and combine with FW can outshoot them as well.

I would agree, Keen Senses does not work against Emperor's Auspice.

Playing is fine, and I will
But I've tried to deal with TWC for years know and not found a way to do it.
These past few forum posts have really helped me formulate plans and shifted the paradigm on how I intend to deal with it, list design etc. and have probably increased my winning chances by quite a few percent
Which is kinda addicting since it keeps coming
In case you didn't notice, I'm not the best player there is and am more familiar with shooty armies. So all the ways you're showing me here are things I didn't consider before!

Keen senses does indeed not affecr Emperor's auspice, but the "bad" thing is that he doesn't need to in the first place. If he pops Keen Senses, which he will, he'll ignore
- Tanglefoot
- his own TH malus
- Praesidium Shield Wall
and hit on 2s, which means he's wiping a squad on average even with AGA and Auspice active. Which means I can't do anything and just have to hope for good rolls (or accept and deal with it).
If I can kite him around for one more turn by having him run over to trajann instead of the blade champ, maybe fail a charge because he can't traverse breachable terrain that could be a game winning situation.

Space wolves are one of our worst matchups in my opinion. They just have all the tools to mess up our secondary game.

They do not ignore Emperors Auspice or AGA though. Your defence should be just fine. Just try not to let them rip you apart piece by piece.

 Thairne wrote:
Playing is fine, and I will
But I've tried to deal with TWC for years know and not found a way to do it.
These past few forum posts have really helped me formulate plans and shifted the paradigm on how I intend to deal with it, list design etc. and have probably increased my winning chances by quite a few percent
Which is kinda addicting since it keeps coming
In case you didn't notice, I'm not the best player there is and am more familiar with shooty armies. So all the ways you're showing me here are things I didn't consider before!

Keen senses does indeed not affecr Emperor's auspice, but the "bad" thing is that he doesn't need to in the first place. If he pops Keen Senses, which he will, he'll ignore
- Tanglefoot
- his own TH malus
- Praesidium Shield Wall
and hit on 2s, which means he's wiping a squad on average even with AGA and Auspice active. Which means I can't do anything and just have to hope for good rolls (or accept and deal with it).
If I can kite him around for one more turn by having him run over to trajann instead of the blade champ, maybe fail a charge because he can't traverse breachable terrain that could be a game winning situation.

Again, if he uses Keen Senses on the thunderwolves, you can use Tanglefoot on whatever character is carrying the Armor of Russ (and vice versa). So you can fight last the thunderwolves with the Stasis Oubliette and just kill them.

Even if he also makes the charge with the character carrying the Armor of Russ and you both fight last each other, you'll make the thunderwolves fight last for sure and it doesn't matter what unit he makes fight last, because everything you should have in the midfield is kind of a big threat.

So for example:

-let's say you have your Custodian Guard with shield, the Blade Champ and Trajann in the midfield. You position them in a way so that the blade champ can make a heroic intervention should the shield squad get charged.
-your opponent uses Keen Senses in his shooting phase on his thunderwolves
-in the charge phase he attempts to charge your shield squad with the thunderwolves and a character who carries the Armor of Russ.

Scenario A:
-you use Tanglefoot on the character with Armor of Russ and succeed in preventing his charge.
-the thunderwolves charge your shield squad, the Blade Champ and Trajann both use their 6" heroic intervention. The Blade Champ uses the Stasis Oubliette to make the thunderwolves fight last. The thunderwolves die. (If he positions himself in such an awkward way so that only one of his models barely gets into engagement range with you, so that the Blade Champ can not make his heroic intervention, make sure you are in Dacatarai stance 2 so you can reduce his pile in to 1". Chances are, he'll not get a lot of models into actual combat with you. This is obviously situational and greatly depends on positioning, but it's something to keep in mind)

Scenario B:
-the character with Armor of Russ makes his charge anyway because you rolled low on Tanglefoot and makes one of your units fight last.
-the thunderwolves again charge your shield squad.
-the Blade Champion and Trajann are still going to make their heroic intervention and the Blade Champ still uses the Stasis Oubliette to make the thunderwolves fight last.
-the character with Armor of Russ gets to fight first since he charged and wasn't fight lasted. He'll likely do absolutely nothing between you using transhuman and auspice.
-the two units you have in engagement who were not fight lastet, get to fight next and hit the thunderwolves. Maybe killing them, but surely severely crippling them.
-your unit who was fight lasted gets to fight before the thunderwolves, because fight last cancels ALL instances of fight first and it goes over to alternating activations, starting with the player whose turn it isn't, which is you. (please correct me on that bullet point, but I am pretty sure this is how it works. Which is STUPID btw and I hate that GW went with this fight last/fight first nonsense instead of initiative.....all for sTreAmLinIng the rules, but don't get me started...)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Space wolves are one of our worst matchups in my opinion. They just have all the tools to mess up our secondary game.

They do not ignore Emperors Auspice or AGA though. Your defence should be just fine. Just try not to let them rip you apart piece by piece.

Wait, really? What's scary about them, especially when bringing a Shadowkeepers list?

My best friend plays space wolves and he outright refuses to play me if I bring Shadowkeepers

 nordsturmking wrote:

Thanks for the battle report. I agree in the current meta an Achillus is still really great, especially against Crusher Stampede and thicc city.

Yeah I'm curious how much they'll change when they FAQ our forgeworld units, I always loved that lunging strike ability. They've got a lot of versatility with weapons loadout and can handle enemies big and small, but they are a bit fragile.