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My only concern is that Praetorian plate is essentially useless in it's 8th form. In it's 9th form, it's become auto-take. Surely there has to be some form of inbetween? Would >9" be too much of a nerf?

Yes.
That way you have round about a 25% chance of it being useful when you need to do it.
Otherwise its very close to the 1 CP strat that allows you to redeploy it near a vexilla.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
My only concern is that Praetorian plate is essentially useless in it's 8th form. In it's 9th form, it's become auto-take. Surely there has to be some form of inbetween? Would >9" be too much of a nerf?

Yes. Nothing about the praetorian plate is OP or oppressive, it only needs a clarification from GW on whether the teleport-shut was intended to count as a heroic intervention.
It is just simply a very good relic that provides flexibility and movement once per game to one model. It's not like captain Yeetus is going to win you the game singlehandedly, but it can force your opponent into difficult decisions.

I would even say that captain Yeetus is not as much an auto-take as Trajann is for example. Right now it's one of the things that are obviously strong in the new codex, and it really is, but maybe with the new missions the meta will shift and suddenly turning off obsec becomes even more valuable than it is now....then maybe even a Silent Judge Knight-Centuria might become the new hotness.

My point is that there are a lot of good options in the codex that need exploring and aside from some questionable point drops (Trajann), nothing in the codex overtly requires a nerf.

Tiberias wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
My only concern is that Praetorian plate is essentially useless in it's 8th form. In it's 9th form, it's become auto-take. Surely there has to be some form of inbetween? Would >9" be too much of a nerf?

Yes. Nothing about the praetorian plate is OP or oppressive, it only needs a clarification from GW on whether the teleport-shut was intended to count as a heroic intervention.
It is just simply a very good relic that provides flexibility and movement once per game to one model. It's not like captain Yeetus is going to win you the game singlehandedly, but it can force your opponent into difficult decisions.

I would even say that captain Yeetus is not as much an auto-take as Trajann is for example. Right now it's one of the things that are obviously strong in the new codex, and it really is, but maybe with the new missions the meta will shift and suddenly turning off obsec becomes even more valuable than it is now....then maybe even a Silent Judge Knight-Centuria might become the new hotness.

My point is that there are a lot of good options in the codex that need exploring and aside from some questionable point drops (Trajann), nothing in the codex overtly requires a nerf.

Dude, take a step back, and look at this objectively. We literally run with a faction that has basic troops that rival most faction's HQ options. Our best HQ is in many ways equal or above Bobby G. Our "worst unit" would possibly be wardens, and even they are still a bonkers unit for 50ppm.

We have some really silly stuff, comparable to other armies. I'm not saying nerf us like the IH or the Castellan, but Trajann needs a look, and our bikes need a look, and the Yeetus needs a review. Bikes might need a small points increase. They are scary good now. Maybe reduce max squad size from 6 to 3? Yeetus is too good I feel personally, and needs some form of restriction. If distance is too harsh, than there should be a restriction on actions. After using, unit is unable to move for the rest of the turn.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
My only concern is that Praetorian plate is essentially useless in it's 8th form. In it's 9th form, it's become auto-take. Surely there has to be some form of inbetween? Would >9" be too much of a nerf?

Yes. Nothing about the praetorian plate is OP or oppressive, it only needs a clarification from GW on whether the teleport-shut was intended to count as a heroic intervention.
It is just simply a very good relic that provides flexibility and movement once per game to one model. It's not like captain Yeetus is going to win you the game singlehandedly, but it can force your opponent into difficult decisions.

I would even say that captain Yeetus is not as much an auto-take as Trajann is for example. Right now it's one of the things that are obviously strong in the new codex, and it really is, but maybe with the new missions the meta will shift and suddenly turning off obsec becomes even more valuable than it is now....then maybe even a Silent Judge Knight-Centuria might become the new hotness.

My point is that there are a lot of good options in the codex that need exploring and aside from some questionable point drops (Trajann), nothing in the codex overtly requires a nerf.

Dude, take a step back, and look at this objectively. We literally run with a faction that has basic troops that rival most faction's HQ options. Our best HQ is in many ways equal or above Bobby G. Our "worst unit" would possibly be wardens, and even they are still a bonkers unit for 50ppm.

We have some really silly stuff, comparable to other armies. I'm not saying nerf us like the IH or the Castellan, but Trajann needs a look, and our bikes need a look, and the Yeetus needs a review. Bikes might need a small points increase. They are scary good now. Maybe reduce max squad size from 6 to 3? Yeetus is too good I feel personally, and needs some form of restriction. If distance is too harsh, than there should be a restriction on actions. After using, unit is unable to move for the rest of the turn.

I am trying my best here to engage you in a positive way since the last tactica thread. But considering the usual content of your posts, you did not really just tell me to take a step back and look at this objectively. Because considering how bad your track record is of assessing our faction, combined with your constant extreme pessimism...that would be somewhat hilarious.

But don't take it from me. Take it from other people in this very thread who are repeatedly telling you not to be that pessimistic about our faction, because there is really no grounds for it.

As for your points: if you change the castellan mark to only be able to port 9" away from enemies, you are killing the relic. Trajann going down in points was unwarranted, I agree with you and even said so multiple times.

Tiberias wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
My only concern is that Praetorian plate is essentially useless in it's 8th form. In it's 9th form, it's become auto-take. Surely there has to be some form of inbetween? Would >9" be too much of a nerf?

then maybe even a Silent Judge Knight-Centuria might become the new hotness.

I actually tried her, and she has her merits. When I went and contested the midboard, my opponent had to pull back the psyker line and effectively conceded the middle objective. She has problems with LOS, but the only real drawback is the slot use.

I was wondering if anyone has printet the kata-texts out and put them on cards to have them sorted? if so, could you be bothered post the files here?

there are some on the TableTopTitans Discord

yeah, I heard about that but for SOME REASON I can't join anything on discord anymore. it asks me to "claim my account" but its not possible for me. so when I accept the invite, the browser window just times out. its so annoying.

Tiberias wrote:


My point is that there are a lot of good options in the codex that need exploring and aside from some questionable point drops (Trajann), nothing in the codex overtly requires a nerf.

Since I don’t own a Blade Wizard (Yet) One of my favorite builds right now is Aquilan Shield - Shield Captain with shield and sword for the +1 Armor save.
Then give him the relic Praesidius for subtract 1 from that attack's wound roll.
Revered Companion for halve the damage characteristic of an attack (rounding up).
Superior Creation - 5+ FNP
Swift as the Eagle - charge with in a turn in which it Advanced.

Run him at something and charge. He’s a hell of a roadblock/beatstick, plus he buys you time to get your troops into position to take an objective or have them charge the same unit next turn. He’s fun...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KGYM wrote:


I actually tried her, and she has her merits. When I went and contested the midboard, my opponent had to pull back the psyker line and effectively conceded the middle objective. She has problems with LOS, but the only real drawback is the slot use.

Interesting...To be honest I haven’t even looked at the traits and relics for the SOS until this post. Did you group her with any sisters or use a Rhino to keep her “somewhat” safe? I want to use some SOS, but haven’t really thought of a good list to use them yet.

If you give him the relic shield for -1 to be wounded he actually looses the +1 to save, which probably ironically makes the AS trait of ignoring AP1 actually do something.

KGYM wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
My only concern is that Praetorian plate is essentially useless in it's 8th form. In it's 9th form, it's become auto-take. Surely there has to be some form of inbetween? Would >9" be too much of a nerf?

then maybe even a Silent Judge Knight-Centuria might become the new hotness.

I actually tried her, and she has her merits. When I went and contested the midboard, my opponent had to pull back the psyker line and effectively conceded the middle objective. She has problems with LOS, but the only real drawback is the slot use.

Similar experience for me, I find Silent Judge extremely powerful but it does take up a valuable HQ slot.

guys, im so torn. I can't decide whats best for back field holdings: 1 allarus or 5 prosecutors. opinions?

Scoundrel80 wrote:
guys, im so torn. I can't decide whats best for back field holdings: 1 allarus or 5 prosecutors. opinions?

It's 5 Prosecutors. The Allarus is better for going into your opponent's backline. He's obsec, counts as 2 models and can reliably clear little 5-man backfield objective holders the turn after he lands. He requires a commitment from your opponent to unshift grossly disproportionate to your commitment in putting him there.

these are the tw EC lists om pondering for tomorrow. First is pure infantry but seems very potent, imo. The second is probably better. more balanced and more versatile. Any comments on both lists (or just the best) are very welcomed.

Nb. The points are adjusted with the CA changes and I presume sagittarums have katas. also, all have misericordias but only sagittarum pay.

I think you overinvest in troops.
Custodian Guard are nothing "special".
Saggitarum are ok, but can fall flat when faced with hordes.
I'd prefer getting a 3rd HQ instead of an additional squad of Guard.
Otherwise, the 2nd list doesnt look bad at all

Did CA change the Warden Squad size or can I call BS wrong? It still shows 3-10, and the french version shows 3-10. It just seems odd when everything else is capped at 6.

 Thairne wrote:
I think you overinvest in troops.
Custodian Guard are nothing "special".
Saggitarum are ok, but can fall flat when faced with hordes.
I'd prefer getting a 3rd HQ instead of an additional squad of Guard.
Otherwise, the 2nd list doesnt look bad at all

Yeah. You’re right. I tend to always over invest in troops. Same with my space marine lists which is arguably even worse I take it you don’t like the infantry list at all then? I just feel 32 custodians seems so good. 3 allarus hold the back objectives and the rest power forward and take the board. Maybe even deepstrike the last 4 allarus.

The second list is probably better. Thing is, I just always seem to do better when I have a lot of assets. By your logic would you say I should scrap 2 troop units and buy me a second dreadnaught and a plate cappy then?

well you do you, if that is what works for you - though I think that number of assets is best covered with SoS now.

In my rankings, there's basically the following list
HQ
Bikes
Dreads
Terminators
Troops

Spamming the worst unit we get (though calling guardians the worst is kinda a tough call ) is not the best idea.
So by that logic, I'd drop one troop unit and get yourself either a HQ or a Dread for that pts.
7 Salvos is nice, but are not enough to kill a LR reliably if you fail to wound.
So there's a case to be made for an achillus or the like.

wonderful points, thairne. Love it.

in all fairness, i am spamming sags ; )

but yeah, I should cut one. would you cut a sag unit or the shield unit?

I used to have 2 galatus in there but didn't like that it can't have EP now. Felt sub par then. Your archillus argument is strong. didnt think of that. Felt 7 salvo should do it. hmm.. Its either one of those or a plate cap, I think.

Do you think the dense vex is needed for the mid board? I mean, the LVO runner up didn't run one. But the two other top8s did.

Scoundrel80 wrote:
wonderful points, thairne. Love it.

in all fairness, i am spamming sags ; )

but yeah, I should cut one. would you cut a sag unit or the shield unit?

I used to have 2 galatus in there but didn't like that it can't have EP now. Felt sub par then. Your archillus argument is strong. didnt think of that. Felt 7 salvo should do it. hmm.. Its either one of those or a plate cap, I think.

Do you think the dense vex is needed for the mid board? I mean, the LVO runner up didn't run one. But the two other top8s did.

This is just some theory I ran across, but there is anticipation that the new Tau and Eldar Codices (particularly Tau) will shift the flag preference back over to the Dense cover flag. New Tau isn't out yet which would explain, according to that theory, why the flag wasn't flying at LVO.

You can expect 3 wounds reasonably which should take one out at ~59%. But it kinda is a gamble. 2 will do it if you roll max, but thats not that likely.
So not being able to tag 1 LR per turn with all your AT is kinda a sad state
Imo, an Achillus is for pushing and a Galatus is for holding your weaker flank, buying you a turn.
So having a Galatus without EP is not that bad I think.
A dense vex however never is wrong, depending on your expected matchups

I’m seeing a lot of the term “worst unit in the book” being thrown out with “Landraider” not being in the sentence. It’s ok though. Forgetting it exists in competitive discussion makes perfect sense, so I’ll just assume people mean “worst non-landraider unit” when they use that term.


Agreed that magnifica will become the default choice once Tau and eldar hit the scene, as both have lots of high AP in comparison to crusher stampede and thicc city.

Does anyone here actually play competitive for tracked points, 40k?

“Dude, take a step back, and look at this objectively. We literally run with a faction that has basic troops that rival most faction's HQ options. Our best HQ is in many ways equal or above Bobby G. Our "worst unit" would possibly be wardens, and even they are still a bonkers unit for 50ppm.

We have some really silly stuff, comparable to other armies. I'm not saying nerf us like the IH or the Castellan, but Trajann needs a look, and our bikes need a look, and the Yeetus needs a review. Bikes might need a small points increase. They are scary good now. Maybe reduce max squad size from 6 to 3? Yeetus is too good I feel personally, and needs some form of restriction. If distance is too harsh, than there should be a restriction on actions. After using, unit is unable to move for the rest of the turn.

 Thairne wrote:
You can expect 3 wounds reasonably which should take one out at ~59%. But it kinda is a gamble. 2 will do it if you roll max, but thats not that likely.
So not being able to tag 1 LR per turn with all your AT is kinda a sad state
Imo, an Achillus is for pushing and a Galatus is for holding your weaker flank, buying you a turn.
So having a Galatus without EP is not that bad I think.
A dense vex however never is wrong, depending on your expected matchups

This one is vs orks. The dense banner Can wreck their shooting. But im not sure i would just auto run the vex in general right now. Pre new book i always ran it. But it leans into a certain way of playing custards and I feel the army has a lot more dynamics to it now. On the other hand, one could argue that no 3++ makes the banner even more relevant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


Ok, so this is where im at now. Took out a saggitarum, added a achillus and have 35 points left.

I feel I have to be able to hold to objectives in the back so I included an allarus. but im not sattisfied. I need one more or a prosecutor squad. Or maybe swop the allarus, drop the shield guards down to spear guards and get 2x5 prosecutors. Or 2x1 allarus for the same battlefield role.

a different approach could be to drop both saggitarum guard squads to either spear or shield and free up points that way.

I could also just up the achillus for another galatus. I really dont like the 5++ on that one. even if the dread spear hurts.

I feel troops are better, than we give them credit for. The LVO runner up ran 4, and I think the only reason none of them were sag guards was, that they didn't have katah (technically they still dont have).

any suggestions on how to tune the list? (opponent is orcs, btw)

I would skip Eternal Penitent on the Dread to save CP. Is your opponent playing lots of buggies or lots of boys or somewhere in the middle?

If you're playing against a lot of buggies don't forget the Ramshackle rule so the Achillus dread will come in handy with high strength attacks that are D3 or D3+3.

Audustum wrote:

Scoundrel80 wrote:
guys, im so torn. I can't decide whats best for back field holdings: 1 allarus or 5 prosecutors. opinions?

It's 5 Prosecutors. The Allarus is better for going into your opponent's backline. He's obsec, counts as 2 models and can reliably clear little 5-man backfield objective holders the turn after he lands. He requires a commitment from your opponent to unshift grossly disproportionate to your commitment in putting him there.

Why not both? Tried it yesterday: 5 Prosecutors and a PP Cap waiting on the home obj. No LOS shooting and DS units reaped down the Prosecutors, PP Cap had to move in to kill, so I DSd one of my Allarus Termies on that objective, instead of going with the other two in the opponents deploy. I find it very powerful to have the option to use one to defend your backfield if the opponent turns out to have significant no LOS shooting, fast units or capable deep strike.

For 75 points, why not just plonk down a Rhino, way harder to shift and not much worse in shooting.

a little follow up on my list and how it went today vs orks.

I went with

And everyone has mesericordias.

I couldn't decide on prosecs or allarus and couldn't afford both, so I somehow brainfarted myself into.. 7 witch seekers! haha idk what I was thingking. just Seemed right.

I won the game narrowly and only because I got 15-15 primary the first two turns and some how managed to score engage and max out attrition and stranglehold twice before he got a foothold with his reserves and some strong plays. at that point my guys started dying big time. And would have been worse was it not for the EC 4+++ vs mortals. I really overestimated the durability sans the 3++. played way too aggressive. gave away too many targets and couldn't cover them all with strats. Even though I didn't dominate the game per se and felt the pressure constantly ( i was pretty much on tilt from t2), in hindsight, I feel the shock and awe tactic that stunned the green skins just enough to eek out a win was actually pretty cool
: )

a few takeaways:

- omg strat-endurance does not compare to the good ol 3++. Our characters have been buffed accordingly, and the +1w makes bikes ok'ish. But our infantry? I feel they should all just have had another wound. The dam level of the game has made a frogleap since 8th and custards die to easy now. doesn't reflect the lore enough, imo. At the same time I didn't like the army wide (more or less) 3++, so +1w would be perfect for me.

- The bikes are so good. They still die, but the new salvo launcher and the option to go for the second stance of the first kata in the first turn make them a huge alpha strike tool. I debated doing that t1, but ended up rolling 2d6 discard one on advances. still, the 2x3 bikes where amazing. they sniped all his mechanized stuff. 2 rocket buggies, 3 mek kanons and other stuff. So efficient with EC rerolls. and they kick as in melee too with that +1 to wound.

- my dreadnaughts underperformed. the galatus has always been an mvp for me in the past. but today they both just Died to massive ork shooty. the galatus killed 17 boys in one turn though which was pretty cool. The Achilles got 2 shots off and got eaten by a dinosaur.

- Trajan and the bike cap more or less won the game for me. they just were heroes and amongst otter things managed 8-9 inch charges to clear ALL his reserves on one flank t3. he came in to my left backfield with 3 defkoptas and 5 storm boys and looked really strong after my guys had gone forward to take the board and had came to a halt on the mid obj after a terrible ork charge with 20 boys and a squig dino kunning boss. Trajan and the cap fought in the center at that point but then turned around and beat the reserves away after long charges (helping fire from 2 surviving sag guards). They then took back the objective. it was glorius. Had this not worked out I am pretty sure I would have lost. I just couldn't allow those Coptas to shot again.

- those 7 silly flame girls? they were amazing. they advance and shoot 12 inch 7d6 s4 hits with -1 ap, that gets s5 for 1cp, every turn or camp an objective been very hard to charge. in my game the scorched away 5 kommandoes and mopped up the rest of 2 20 man boys squads and were key in the late game. the pregame move is good! probably not a top tier unit, though.

- saggitarum and wardens just got killed way to easily. the shield guards were a bit better, but very dull offensively and not very resilient at all. the sags got some good shots off, though, and the wardens played they body guard role decently.

- the vex. I want two. maybe even a light cover one too.

- i was so glad i didn't have allarus. I would have cried when they just would get smashed with their 4++. 2 missed saves and its over. everything is 2-3 flat.

- highly recommend having impregnable mind on the vex. he is often deep in the center. worked well. I dont think the ork caster got anything through between the +1 deny and the flamegirls -1 to cast. Another reason to consider the mobile flamers maybe. they get up the field which makes the anti psychic more relevant.

All in all, it was a nerve-racking game. I felt my whole army was about to explode all the time : ) but I LOVE the new book still. think it will be tough, though, when people get used to the book.

thanks for all your tips through the last couple days.